"You've got to figure out what's wrong with your football team – is it players, is it coaches, is it scheme?"
I would suggest that "players" could also be construed as talent level. I would also argue that talent can be diminished by injury.
So, with those qualifiers, what is the cause of the Giants being among the worst, if not the worst, in the league?
Remember our conversations on the board in the spring?
Many of us commented on how many players we signed / re-signed who had a history of injuries.
I can't help but to consider a correlation between the injuries endured and the history of those on the roster.
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Quote from: MightyGiants on November 17, 2023, 12:48:34 PM"You've got to figure out what's wrong with your football team – is it players, is it coaches, is it scheme?"
I would suggest that "players" could also be construed as talent level. I would also argue that talent can be diminished by injury.
So, with those qualifiers, what is the cause of the Giants being among the worst, if not the worst, in the league?
Seems like a very limited view, as it could also be football operations or ownership.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 17, 2023, 12:55:44 PMSeems like a very limited view, as it could also be football operations or ownership.
Rich,
I kind of see your point, but I could also see the point that these are more causes for one of the other three being the problem (with those three being the only ones with a direct impact on the outcome of a game)
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 17, 2023, 01:03:57 PMRich,
I kind of see your point, but I could also see the point that these are more causes for one of the other three being the problem (with those three being the only ones with a direct impact on the outcome of a game)
But that is searching for the effect while ignoring the cause. Another possibility, is it a ten or more year history of disproportionate injuries? I also think it is a little self-serving, even passive aggressive for Lombardi to limit the scrutiny to things that he, as an executive, wasn't included. Those players didn't just materialize, someone picked them. Same for the coaches. And really, scheme is just a corolary to coaching.
It's like asking, why is a widget company having problems, is it the employees, is it the assembly line, is it the employee benefits package.
It's the Qb play hands down. It has a ripple effect on the whole team, the coaching, the offense knows they aren't going to progress, the defense knows the offense won't do anything and give up, and injured guys are in no rush to get back for absolutely no reason.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 17, 2023, 01:13:38 PMBut that is searching for the effect while ignoring the cause. Another possibility, is it a ten or more year history of disproportionate injuries? I also think it is a little self-serving, even passive aggressive for Lombardi to limit the scrutiny to things that he, as an executive, wasn't included. Those players didn't just materialize, someone picked them. Same for the coaches. And really, scheme is just a corolary to coaching.
It's like asking, why is a widget company having problems, is it the employees, is it the assembly line, is it the employee benefits package.
Rich,
If we accept that players, coaches, and schemes are the three direct factors that determine wins or losses, it seems like it's a good place to start.
I figure you can decide one or more of these factors are the issue. Each factor would then lend itself to some root cause analysis.
I appreciate your point about Mike, a former GM and NFL front office guy, not being listed, but if you think about it, the GM plays a major role in players. If players are found to be an issue, it's hard not to see the GM having serious responsibility.
Even in coaching, if the GM hired the HC and/or had input on the assistants that were hired, the GM still would have responsibility.
In my mind, the only factor that GM would be more or less blameless would be the scheme (although since coaches determine the scheme, there would still be an argument for blame).
I see the question Mike asked as a way to address the issues in a systematic way and also as a way to sort of simplify the problem analysis as my breakdowns show there can be a myriad of causes with many of them being inter-related.
If anyone knows how to run a bad football team, it would be Mike Lombardi. Look at his son - he gets axed, and they win 2 consecutive games :)
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 17, 2023, 01:17:40 PMIt's the Qb play hands down. It has a ripple effect on the whole team, the coaching, the offense knows they aren't going to progress, the defense knows the offense won't do anything and give up, and injured guys are in no rush to get back for absolutely no reason.
Former coaches and GMs need to validate their professional careers/adulthood; thus, they always list their former professions as a potential cause to promote their own sense of importance. However, no team in the last 2 decades has made a scheme and/or coaching change to significantly, and persistently, turn a perennial looser into a perennial winner. The latter is only achieved through the selection of an All-Pro type QB. Nothing else matters until you get that right. Even the best coaches like Bill B, Sean Payton, Sean McVay, etc can do little without a quality QB. Welcome to the modern NFL.
At least 90 percent of the issues are on the QB. A functional offense makes the defense better as they won't have to be on the field all the time. The current situation is demoralizing for the defense. And this was the case with Daniel Jones at QB aside from one half of football. They will continue to be a laughing stock until they address the QB position and get a real franchise QB. That's it. Adding MHJ won't fix this. Only a QB.
I don't remember where I heard this. There are 3 components to a good team- QB, HC and owner. GM was not included. The one constant on the Giants, in my opinion, is a bad owner. We've won a few SBs with a bad owner but we had (young) Eli and Coughlin. I still like Daboll but we need a QB preferably on a rookie contract
Quote from: nb587 on November 17, 2023, 02:16:44 PMI don't remember where I heard this. There are 3 components to a good team- QB, HC and owner. GM was not included. The one constant on the Giants, in my opinion, is a bad owner. We've won a few SBs with a bad owner but we had (young) Eli and Coughlin. I still like Daboll but we need a QB preferably on a rookie contract
Mike Brown was consider a laughingstock, excessively cheap, and worst owner in the NFL. Then he drafted Joe Burrow and poof, he's no longer considered a terrible owner.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 17, 2023, 02:22:17 PMMike Brown was consider a laughingstock, excessively cheap, and worst owner in the NFL. Then he drafted Joe Burrow and poof, he's no longer considered a terrible owner.
I am actually curious how this plays out over the years.
Burrow's rookie season- 4-11 4th place in the division
Burrow's second year- 10-7 the team adds Ja'Marr Chase 1st in their division, and they end up the AFC champs
Burrow's third year- 12-4 1st in their division, lose the AFC conference championship
Burrow's fourth year- currently 5-5 and 4th in their division
I am curious how the team will fare moving forward. Will the lack of protection cause too many injuries to Burrow and keep the team from being consistent challengers (suggesting the two winning seasons were a bit of a flash in the pan), or is this season an aberration? I am curious to find out the answer.
Edit to add- I suspect the fortunes of the Bengals will not improve this season, as it's just been reported Burrow is out for the season.
https://x.com/CarlBanksGIII/status/1725611979006521834?s=20
Quote from: kingm56 on November 17, 2023, 02:22:17 PMMike Brown was consider a laughingstock, excessively cheap, and worst owner in the NFL. Then he drafted Joe Burrow and poof, he's no longer considered a terrible owner.
I dont know that Mike Brown is considered the worst owner notwithstanding his cheapness. Up until pretty recently, there was this guy in Washington who was pretty bad. The Bengals have drafted well lately which would suggest somebody knows what they're doing. You can look around the league and find teams that clearly dont know what they're doing witj owners content to cash their checks. Not sure where Mara fits in given his propensity to spend but where has that gotten us. I just might prefer Mike Brown to John Mara, not saying much
Quote from: nb587 on November 17, 2023, 03:42:34 PMI dont know that Mike Brown is considered the worst owner notwithstanding his cheapness. Up until pretty recently, there was this guy in Washington who was pretty bad. The Bengals have drafted well lately which would suggest somebody knows what they're doing. You can look around the league and find teams that clearly dont know what they're doing witj owners content to cash their checks. Not sure where Mara fits in given his propensity to spend but where has that gotten us. I just might prefer Mike Brown to John Mara, not saying much
Are you a younger fan, nb? I don't mean that to sound insulting, but if followed football in the 90s/2000s, you're well aware that Mike Brown was routinely listed as one of the worst owners in football; his reputation has greatly improved over the last few years, which is the point...
PLEASE stop blaming the owner because we suck on the field. Mara may have his faults but on game day, we go out and embarrass ourselves every week in and out. Matra can't throw the ball more than 5 yards, Mara can't block the defenders, Mara can't keep teams from scoring at will.
While I also am not a fan of his meddling, he sure is the least of our deficiencies.
Quote from: nb587 on November 17, 2023, 03:42:34 PMI dont know that Mike Brown is considered the worst owner notwithstanding his cheapness. Up until pretty recently, there was this guy in Washington who was pretty bad. The Bengals have drafted well lately which would suggest somebody knows what they're doing. You can look around the league and find teams that clearly dont know what they're doing witj owners content to cash their checks. Not sure where Mara fits in given his propensity to spend but where has that gotten us. I just might prefer Mike Brown to John Mara, not saying much
The Bengals have been a pretty good team in terms of drafting despite spending the least (by a significant margin) on scouting. This used to puzzle me, but then I learned the Bengals supplement their scouting with their coaching staff. I figure that's how the team does well despite fewer scouting resources. It's a good thing to get the coaches involved in player acquisition.
There are multiple problems with the Giants that have contributed to us being this bad for this long, but the number one reason, by far, is the talent we're putting on the field. It all goes back to that. I think we have done a woefully poor job drafting and developing young players, and it has gone on for a while.
Yes, there are other things. For sure. We're dreadful at keeping our players healthy, and we absolutely have made a number of highly questionable coaching/coordinator hires. But ultimately I think we had way too many years of having terrible scouts and front office people, and that has resulted in us having among the worst rosters in the league year-in/year-out.
Quote from: LennG on November 17, 2023, 03:55:09 PMPLEASE stop blaming the owner because we suck on the field. Mara may have his faults but on game day, we go out and embarrass ourselves every week in and out. Matra can't throw the ball more than 5 yards, Mara can't block the defenders, Mara can't keep teams from scoring at will.
While I also am not a fan of his meddling, he sure is the least of our deficiencies.
The one constant on the Giants in Mara going back years. But, stating the obvious, somebody hired Gettleman and Judge and others who selected or coached the players we all are complaining about. I'm reasonably happy with Schoen & Daboll ) and am hoping that Mara has learned to stay away from football decisions. There are many on this board who believe he is still too involved in personnel decisions. I'm not in that camp but it's mostly hoping. If Mara is dictating decisions like the Jones contract, it's hopeless
Quote from: nb587 on November 17, 2023, 05:41:24 PMThe one constant on the Giants in Mara going back years. But, stating the obvious, somebody hired Gettleman and Judge and others who selected or coached the players we all are complaining about. I'm reasonably happy with Schoen & Daboll ) and am hoping that Mara has learned to stay away from football decisions. There are many on this board who believe he is still too involved in personnel decisions. I'm not in that camp but it's mostly hoping. If Mara is dictating decisions like the Jones contract, it's hopeless
No, those things just spontaneously happened. Mara is the founder of the feast and the feast tastes lousy.
Atrocious drafting is the number 1 reason the Giants are bad and have been bad for years. Scouting department/GM and/or whomever makes the personnel decisions is the reason, imo. Just look at the recent drafts.
The current scouting department has had one draft. Everyone was turned over before last draft.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 17, 2023, 01:13:38 PMBut that is searching for the effect while ignoring the cause. Another possibility, is it a ten or more year history of disproportionate injuries? I also think it is a little self-serving, even passive aggressive for Lombardi to limit the scrutiny to things that he, as an executive, wasn't included. Those players didn't just materialize, someone picked them. Same for the coaches. And really, scheme is just a corolary to coaching.
<B>It's like asking, why is a widget company having problems, is it the employees, is it the assembly line, is it the employee benefits package.</B>
If the individual asking the question is a performance consultant, the last thing they'll assist whether this or that is the root cause. The first thing they will do is ask questions in order to define and describe the problem.
Next, they will attempt to find the root cause through exploration of the problem statement through a series of factors or attributes related to the problem.
I've discussed using an Ishikawa, or Fishbone Diagram, to depict this causal relationship.
The Giants have multiple direct causes contributing to their lack of success this season. Many have been identified here already. Analysis on some of these causes might yield long-term trends which may support the case for being the root cause.
This is where Schoen and Daboll's analytics team can add value to the Giants' organization and define Key Performance Parameters (KPP) which tie in measures requiring performance improvement plans. But the key is ensuring you have corre tly identified the root cause of your performance inhibitors.
Peace!
Football is a complementary game between O, D and ST. If any one of these is weak it diminishes the others. This year we have both a terrible O (driven by a historically bad OL and QB poor play & injuries) and a below par ST unit (injuries, roster gaps, coaching). Our D is adequate (flaws and strengths) but gets exposed at times by bad field position and too much time out there.
ST should be a relatively simple fix through ugh coaching and targeted FA additions. The OL is proving more problematic as a mix of injuries, wasted draft picks (Neal, Ezeudu) and coaching are all issues. Finding a QB is a dice-throw in the draft. We cannot go into next year with the at best inconsistent and injury prone Jones as the #1 QB and we cannot have Taylor as QB2. De Vito? Let us see if he can earn a 'solid back-up' tag down the stretch.
It feels like a minimum two year fix but both last year and this year have been surprising in markedly different ways so perhaps next year will surprise me as well.