Justin Herbert is considered by most to be among the elite QBs in the league.
Yet in his 4 years in the team, they failed to make the playoffs twice, lost a wildcard game, and are on pace for another season failing to make the playoffs. Since the Giants actually won a playoff game during that same stretch, it seems, in some ways the Chargers have done worse than the Giants even with an elite QB.
Now, the point I am making isn't the one most would think. I am pointing to the danger of drawing conclusions from just one QB's situation. This includes citing often-injured Joe Burrow as proof an elite QB can function with a bad O-line or CJ Stroud as proof that just changing the QB can turn a franchise around.
I think as we debate and discuss the team, its fortunes, and what it should do, we are careful not to use exceptions to create the rule.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 18, 2023, 10:42:14 AMI think as we debate and discuss the team, its fortunes, and what it should do, we are careful not to use exceptions to create the rule.
Darn, just as I was about to suggest looking for our next franchisevqb in the 6th round. :P
I've noticed how Herbert tends to be erractic in crunch time. In fairness, his coach is even worse in those moments. Chargers are an enigma,always. :what:
Herbert needs to start winning more big games. And he needs to start winning more close games too. The latter one is key.
Now.. I'm only going to go so far knocking a guy who has 20 total TDs (17 passing, 3 rushing) with just 5 INTs and zero lost fumbles, along with being 5th in QBR and having a 99.5 rating. He is clearly very talented. The eye test alone tells you that if you watch just a couple of series with him.
Their big issue is D. When you're literally 31st out of 32 teams in yards per game allowed and you're 24th in PPG allowed, and the team is still in the playoff hunt in late November, it's kind of hard to kill the QB.
But still, with the talent he has and (now) the paycheck he has, I'm not really in the excuses business. He does have to win. He's 25 though, so it's not like the book is remotely written on him.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 18, 2023, 12:19:22 PMHerbert needs to start winning more big games. And he needs to start winning more close games too. The latter one is key.
Now.. I'm only going to go so far knocking a guy who has 20 total TDs (17 passing, 3 rushing) with just 5 INTs and zero lost fumbles, along with being 5th in QBR and having a 99.5 rating. He is clearly very talented. The eye test alone tells you that if you watch just a couple of series with him.
Their big issue is D. When you're literally 31st out of 32 teams in yards per game allowed and you're 24th in PPG allowed, and the team is still in the playoff hunt in late November, it's kind of hard to kill the QB.
But still, with the talent he has and (now) the paycheck he has, I'm not really in the excuses business. He does have to win. He's 25 though, so it's not like the book is remotely written
on him.Quote from: DaveBrown74
link=msg=924859 date=1700327962A big issue is the defense. The big isQuote from: DaveBrown74 on November 18, 2023, 12:19:22 PMHerbert needs to start winning more big games. And he needs to start winning more close games too. The latter one is key.
Now.. I'm only going to go so far knocking a guy who has 20 total TDs (17 passing, 3 rushing) with just 5 INTs and zero lost fumbles, along with being 5th in QBR and having a 99.5 rating. He is clearly very talented. The eye test alone tells you that if you watch just a couple of series with him.
Their big issue is D. When you're literally 31st out of 32 teams in yards per game allowed and you're 24th in PPG allowed, and the team is still in the playoff hunt in late November, it's kind of hard to kill the QB.
But still, with the talent he has and (now) the paycheck he has, I'm not really in the excuses business. He does have to win. He's 25 though, so it's not like the book is remotely written on him.
Herbert needs to start winning more big games. And he needs to start winning more close games too. The latter one is key.
Now.. I'm only going to go so far knocking a guy who has 20 total TDs (17 passing, 3 rushing) with just 5 INTs and zero lost fumbles, along with being 5th in QBR and having a 99.5 rating. He is clearly very talented. The eye test alone tells you that if you watch just a couple of series with him.
Their big issue is D. When you're literally 31st out of 32 teams in yards per game allowed and you're 24th in PPG allowed, and the team is still in the playoff hunt in late November, it's kind of hard to kill the QB.
But still, with the talent he has and (now) the paycheck he has, I'm not really in the excuses business. He does have to win. He's 25 though, so it's not like the book is remotely written on him.
A big issue is defense. The big issue is coaching. There was a thread yesterday about owners. Chargers are up there with the worst. I don't know what the Charger HC has to do to lose his job. He is up there with the worst HCs I have ever seen.
There have been complaints for years about Staley as a head coach. That he has been allowed to waste years of talented rosters is criminal.
They had a top 5 pick and were a winning team within 2 years.
Staley is the clueless Charger. Herbert is saddled
with him. Maybe ownership is too cheap to fire him and bid for a top name. :no:
Yeah Herbert and Burrow are phenomenal and we would be over the moon to find a Qb on their level.
Herbert's issue is a horrible coach and defense like Burrows issue is the oline. Both are phenomenal QBs otherwise.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 18, 2023, 01:40:35 PMYeah Herbert and Burrow are phenomenal and we would be over the moon to find a Qb on their level.
Herbert's issue is a horrible coach and defense like Burrows issue is the oline. Both are phenomenal QBs otherwise.
Herbert also had a horrible O line when he came into the league. Worst in the league per PFF and he still won OROY that year. He really is a terrific talent. The winning will come.
I wish the Giants were as bad as the Chargers who are 4-5 right now while having one of the most potent offenses in the entire NFL. I imagine a lot of us would give quite a bit to be that "bad".
No you can't take one scenario and extrapolate it everybody. Like when they said Stroud would be a bust because he came from Ohio State and they never produced QBs there. It's a silly exercise. But having said that, getting a real QB is the fastest path to getting the Giants back to respectability.
And the fastest path to getting that QB is using their first pick next season on it. They have to get the pick right, goes without saying, but if they do they're set for a decade plus. And if they don't...they're pretty much right where they are anyway.
Watching Williams on tv. Not making USC better.How would he make a bad Giants team better?
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Quote from: Gmo11 on November 18, 2023, 03:38:58 PMI wish the Giants were as bad as the Chargers who are 4-5 right now while having one of the most potent offenses in the entire NFL. I imagine a lot of us would give quite a bit to be that "bad".
I would trade every win the Giants have cobbled together over the last 5 years to have Justin Herbert as my starting QB going into 2024.
What makes anyone here think there is a right decision on a QB with #1 pick. It is a gamble to pick a QB #1. No matter who it is. Who was it , Haskins that was supposed to be the guy for Giants? How did he do in NFL.
Yes teams have to have a very good QB to build around... but why would any Giant fan think the Giants are capable of doing that.
They have been picking in top ten most years for a decade and have nothing to show for it.
Shoen has one or two more years to get it done in my opinion. And then if does make them competitive he will be exception to Mara Tech record of front office hires.
Just saw Williams make a great pass.
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Haskins is no where in the class of anyone at the top of this QB group. Please be serious.
What's mind-boggling is that Gettleman staked his reputation on two things:
1 - Hog mollies
2 - NO QB hell
Instead of alleviating/preventing those situations, he actually made one worse and created the other!
As it pertains to this thread, he wanted Herbert in the worst way. Herbert decided to stay in school. Not sure if it was because he didn't want to be a part of the Giants or what. Maybe he was avoiding going to a team that couldn't protect the QB at that time. The irony isn't lost on me. And, to add further irony, Eli ditched the Chargers and ended up with us. Herbert seemingly did the same.
Why didn't Gettleman wait another year for Herbert? Why did he pick a QB he really didn't want? He clearly settled (Dave Settleman) and here we are now, in that same QB hell, blaming everyone and everything BUT the QB. THAT'S the very definition of QB hell.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 18, 2023, 10:42:14 AMJustin Herbert is considered by most to be among the elite QBs in the league.
Yet in his 4 years in the team, they failed to make the playoffs twice, lost a wildcard game, and are on pace for another season failing to make the playoffs. Since the Giants actually won a playoff game during that same stretch, it seems, in some ways the Chargers have done worse than the Giants even with an elite QB.
Now, the point I am making isn't the one most would think. I am pointing to the danger of drawing conclusions from just one QB's situation. This includes citing often-injured Joe Burrow as proof an elite QB can function with a bad O-line or CJ Stroud as proof that just changing the QB can turn a franchise around.
I think as we debate and discuss the team, its fortunes, and what it should do, we are careful not to use exceptions to create the rule.
Bravo Rich. I could not agree more. I think we all agree that certain positions may be more important with respect to turning around a team such as QB but it is basically a 22 starter league.
His brother was an incoming freshman. He wanted to play with him for a year.
Quote from: T200 on November 18, 2023, 06:18:03 PMWhat's mind-boggling is that Gettleman staked his reputation on two things:
1 - Hog mollies
2 - NO QB hell
Instead of alleviating/preventing those situations, he actually made one worse and created the other!
As it pertains to this thread, he wanted Hervert in the worst way. Herbert decided to stay in school. Not sure if it was because he didn't want to be a part of the Giants or what. Maybe he was avoiding going to a team that couldn't protect the QB at that time. The irony isn't lost on me. And, to add further irony, Eli ditched the Chargers and ended up with us. Herbert seemingly did the same.
Why didn't Gettleman wait another year for Herbert? Why did he pick a QB he really didn't want? He clearly settled (Dave Settleman) and here we are now, in that same QB hell, blaming everyone and everything BUT the QB. THAT'S the very definition of QB hell.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 18, 2023, 09:46:35 PMHis brother was an incoming freshman. He wanted to play with him for a year.
Understandable. DG could have waited instead of settling.
Should have.
Quote from: T200 on November 18, 2023, 09:54:56 PMUnderstandable. DG could have waited instead of settling.
Quote from: Woody on November 18, 2023, 04:38:53 PMWhat makes anyone here think there is a right decision on a QB with #1 pick. It is a gamble to pick a QB #1. No matter who it is. Who was it , Haskins that was supposed to be the guy for Giants? How did he do in NFL.
Yes teams have to have a very good QB to build around... but why would any Giant fan think the Giants are capable of doing that.
They have been picking in top ten most years for a decade and have nothing to show for it.
Shoen has one or two more years to get it done in my opinion. And then if does make them competitive he will be exception to Mara Tech record of front office hires.
Just saw Williams make a great pass.
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Based on your argument, the Giants should never draft a QB because they might be a bust? Are you really advocating for retraining a known bust because his replacement might also be a bust?
When the excuses were being made for Jones' non-elite play, it was often stated that his early years were hampered by the coaching.
In fact, coaching was one of the 'three pillars' to success - something that was omitted in the analysis of Herbert.
I don't think anyone thinks that automatically picking a QB is going to make everything right. The giants picked one 6th overall and are still in a mess.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 18, 2023, 05:04:21 PMHaskins is no where in the class of anyone at the top of this QB group. Please be serious.
Haskins is dead, and passed at a very early age. So please, a modicum of respect.
No one knows whether or not he would've turned it around with Tomlin's guidance, and we never will.
RIP YOUNG MR HASKINS
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 19, 2023, 09:35:43 AMHaskins is dead, and passed at a very early age. So please, a modicum of respect.
No one knows whether or not he would've turned it around with Tomlin's guidance, and we never will.
RIP YOUNG MR HASKINS
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Please don't do this. We all understood what he was saying. As a "draft prospect" Haskins did not grade out as high as Williams and Maye. That's not a controversial statement and has nothing to do with being respectful of the dead.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 19, 2023, 09:57:14 AMPlease don't do this. We all understood what he was saying. As a "draft prospect" Haskins did not grade out as high as Williams and Maye. That's not a controversial statement and has nothing to do with being respectful of the dead.
Normally I wouldn't. However he referred to Mr. Haskins in the present tense and I found that offensive.
I apologize to anyone who is offended by my reply.
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Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2023, 07:20:37 AMWhen the excuses were being made for Jones' non-elite play, it was often stated that his early years were hampered by the coaching.
In fact, coaching was one of the 'three pillars' to success - something that was omitted in the analysis of Herbert.
I don't think anyone thinks that automatically picking a QB is going to make everything right. The giants picked one 6th overall and are still in a mess.
I think you are confusing team success with QB play. Make no mistake -- Jones is NOT elite, regardless of his teammates. Herbert
is an elite QB even with the limitations of his team.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 19, 2023, 09:35:43 AMHaskins is dead, and passed at a very early age. So please, a modicum of respect.
No one knows whether or not he would've turned it around with Tomlin's guidance, and we never will.
RIP YOUNG MR HASKINS
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This is unnecessarily and unfairly preachy. Nobody was attacking Haskins' character or insulting him. To give an honest account of what he was (or had accomplished) as a football player years after his passing is not in any way disrespectful, nor should it be off limits if it's to illustrate a point. It was not "disrespect" on any level.
To try to make someone feel guilty for giving an honest football statement that is a direct part of the underlying discussion and was in no way shape or form an attack against Haskins the human being is ridiculous. Since when does dying entitle a person to eternal, deliberate mischaracterizations or outright fabrications of what they did professionally? Give me a break.
I just don't see how anyone could not be for us taking a Qb after 5+ years of horrible Qb play. I know everyone wants the line fixed but elite Qb play will help the line, plus we don't need to draft a lineman, we need a plug and play lineman. I also don't think we are that far off from a good line, which would be even more reason to draft a Qb now.
They picked a guy they were mocked for picking. He wasn't a first round talent. All the prospects we are talking about picking are much better prospects. If they hit, they are likely to turn the trajectory of the franchise around just as Stroud has done in Houston.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2023, 07:20:37 AMWhen the excuses were being made for Jones' non-elite play, it was often stated that his early years were hampered by the coaching.
In fact, coaching was one of the 'three pillars' to success - something that was omitted in the analysis of Herbert.
I don't think anyone thinks that automatically picking a QB is going to make everything right. The giants picked one 6th overall and are still in a mess.
Us picking Harrison over an Elite Qb prospect would basically be saquan all over again. Great talent we can't use properly.
No QB would do well under DeVito's 9 sack assault. We might as well draft a kicker to play QB.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 19, 2023, 03:22:01 PMNo QB would do well under DeVito's 9 sack assault. We might as well draft a kicker to play QB.
You mean no QB other than Tommy DeVito?
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Quote from: Philosophers on November 19, 2023, 03:22:01 PMNo QB would do well under DeVito's 9 sack assault. We might as well draft a kicker to play QB.
How long has it been since Daniel Jones threw for 3 TDs in a game? He hasn't done it in the last 4 years.
The QB isn't as helpless as you pretend in order to justify the Daniel Jones experiment.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 18, 2023, 05:04:21 PMHaskins is no where in the class of anyone at the top of this QB group. Please be serious.
But he was the year he was drafted. That is the point
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Most of the sacks were on DeVito. He got sacked on a quick screen he decided not to throw. I've never seen that in the NFL
I was not disrespectful of Haskins I was just making point that he was suppose to be one of the better Qb' s that year and he did not pan out as a player....you guys need to get a life
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He was never graded as a top prospect. Just one of the top guys in a very weak class. There are 6 guys in this class who are better prospects than he was. The comparison holds no water.
Quote from: Woody on November 19, 2023, 04:29:25 PMI was not disrespectful of Haskins I was just making point that he was suppose to be one of the better Qb' s that year and he did not pan out as a player....you guys need to get a life
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Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 19, 2023, 04:25:16 PMHow long has it been since Daniel Jones threw for 3 TDs in a game? He hasn't done it in the last 4 years.
The QB isn't as helpless as you pretend in order to justify the Daniel Jones experiment.
Ok you realize that your sample size to make your point was 1 game right? If we looked back for all the 9 sack games a QB experienced, I'd wager confidently the QB lost 90%+ of them. What DeVito did was great but that will not happen again IMHO.
I do agree QBs can be a reason for sacks. I used to say Eli was responsible for a lot of his sacks because his drop back was sooooo slow.
We can blame today's close loss on Herbert.
Or......
https://twitter.com/sharpfootball/status/1726347283124404569?s=46&t=6_OiGHiF_HZTCU3XOwUQ5Q
Quote from: Philosophers on November 19, 2023, 04:51:56 PMOk you realize that your sample size to make your point was 1 game right?
That's one game Daniel Jones hasn't produced in the last 4 years. The point is an undrafted rookie walked in the door and is immediately more productive than Daniel Jones with 6 TD passes in his 3 starts. That doesn't mean DeVito is the answer. It's just further confirmation that Daniel Jones is an enormous part of the problem for the Giants.
Again, the QB can make plays regardless of his circumstances. It won't happen consistently if the team isn't good enough. But if DeVito can throw for 6 TDs in 3 games, then no reasonable person should continue making excuses for Daniel Jones.
It's hard to say how many of the sacks were on Tommy without seeing coach's film.
But to my eye at least two were.
The one mentioned when the line released on the right for a screen on the left and one where Barklay had a step on an outside go route.
Both of those were designed and he seemed to freeze in the pocket.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 19, 2023, 05:13:27 PMThat's one game Daniel Jones hasn't produced in the last 4 years. The point is an undrafted rookie walked in the door and is immediately more productive than Daniel Jones with 6 TD passes in his 3 starts. That doesn't mean DeVito is the answer. It's just further confirmation that Daniel Jones is an enormous part of the problem for the Giants.
Again, the QB can make plays regardless of his circumstances. It won't happen consistently if the team isn't good enough. But if DeVito can throw for 6 TDs in 3 games, then no reasonable person should continue making excuses for Daniel Jones.
We agree that DJ is not the answer.