We were second last week, but this big win, which gets us to 3-8 on the season, now puts us at 5th overall if we were drafting today.
At 5th overall you can't even get Harrison Jr.
https://www.tankathon.com/nfl
Pats fans are rejoicing tonight.
How fitting for this team, who was sleep walking the entire first half of the season, to win a few worthless games to blow up their chance of drafting a QB or generational WR.
All for what, to make Daboll look better? To give a handful of fans false hope that Devito is anything more than a backup QB?
Should be no surprise, I guess, as the Giants long have been great at blowing opportunities.
So now we go from drafting Maye to drafting an edge (figure 2 QBs, Harrison, Fashanu go 1-4). Don't get me wrong, I like Latu and feel we need to replace Ojulari, but our D is already solid and the drop off from taking a franchise QB to taking an edge is astronomical.
This is now life as a Giants fan. The Parcells and Coughlin eras are distant memories. Since Coughlin was so unceremoniously pushed out we are stuck in a loop of debating whether winning a meaningless game against a bad team is worth it. We debate whether we've seen enough of a mediocre (on a good day) QB going into his 6th season to determine whether he is actually mediocre or not.
Thank you, Mr. Mara for your steadfast leadership. If there was a Dave Gettleman lifetime achievement award for excellence in incompetence, John Mara would be a finalist every year.
Lots of games left to lose. I think the Bears and Cardinals definitely win a game or two. Packers and Rams wins help. Need to lose next week. Can't imagine getting 6 turnovers again.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 19, 2023, 07:43:20 PMLots of games left to lose. I think the Bears and Cardinals definitely win a game or two. Packers and Rams wins help. Need to lose next week. Can't imagine getting 6 turnovers again.
Pats are a team to worry about. They may not win again. We play them.
The game against the Pats is must lose. I think we can do it. Today was an aberration. We never lose to Washington and they turned the ball over 6 times. That is tough to repeat.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 19, 2023, 08:21:02 PMThe game against the Pats is must lose. I think we can do it. Today was an aberration. We never lose to Washington and they turned the ball over 6 times. That is tough to repeat.
If Belichick is leaving and going to the Chargers, he'll play that game to win.
We need the Eagles to lose a couple of games. We can't have that week 18 game against us be 100% meaningless to them. We'll win that for sure if that's the case.
I did not think we'd win another game.
OK I am a sucker for punishment so I am going to stick my neck out but I apologize if I offend anyone
HOW DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO LOSE???
Do you honestly want a team you root for but more importantly the PLAYERS you root for to not try?
Do you really want them to lose to a Bellicheat coached team???
I remember like it was yesterday and I was 10 years old going out to sit in a cold car because the radio reception was better than in the house and I cant ever remember my Dad saying come on we have to root for the Giants to lose
It shouldnt concern me that a few posters on a Giants talk site are already thinking six games from now and hoping for the worst because I believe that there are thousands of 10, 11 and 12 year old kids becoming Giants fans for the first time who arent thinking of next years draft and "maybe" getting a "franchise" QB or a Marvin Harrison. I venture to say that those kids are rooting their little backsides of for Tommy Devito, the 3d QB on the team they are starting to love because the kid who still lives at home and his mother makes his bed is to them out there playing his ass off
Dumpster Dan
Well said Dan
I hate to break it to the tankathoners but we are going to beat the Patriots. In fact it could be big. You cannot expect the players to throw these games. Whatever happens happens.
Quote from: TDToomer on November 19, 2023, 09:12:17 PMWell said Dan
I hate to break it to the tankathoners but we are going to beat the Patriots. In fact it could be big. You cannot expect the players to throw these games. Whatever happens happens.
The players don't tank. They care about their own careers and pride. I expect the Giants to win at least one more game. Packers is also winnable. Either way, they need to find a QB next year.
My best case scenario is this. We have a very young team. I'd love to see them go on a run and end the season on a high note with growing confidence in emerging talent. And that sort of thing happens all the time in this league. Then we go into the draft looking to fill some spots and add some solid citizen free agents to lead and mentor the younger guys.
All this hand wringing over a victory against Washington makes it feel like its 2019 again.
Its great to have pick of the litter, but you just never know who falls and who is fools gold.
Geez, I expect us to win out.
But then, silly me, I am a New York Giants fan.
I'd much rather have the conversation at the end of the year about how the players didn't quit on each other and the head coach than what we're going to do with the #1 or #2 pick if it comes at the expense of the team quitting on the coach. If that results in a nominally worse draft position, so be it.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on November 19, 2023, 09:39:04 PMI'd much rather have the conversation at the end of the year about how the players didn't quit on each other and the head coach than what we're going to do with the #1 or #2 pick if it comes at the expense of the team quitting on the coach. If that results in a nominally worse draft position, so be it.
Exactly. Just how good will the QB have to be to turn around such a bunch of sad sacks ?
I'm much more conformable with the Giants winning a few games and their qb coming to them naturally than tanking or trading picks. The teams that have actually hit on qbs recently were all playoff teams the ÿear before the draft in the Eagles, Bill's, and Chiefs. With Burrow, Lawrence, and Herbet being the exceptions but still. The odds are better if you let the Qb come to you whether it's whenever you pick in the 1st or in the 2nd-7th than reaching into the top. Since 2010 41 qbs have been taken in the 1st round and only 1 of those qbs has a super bowl win. Only 11 of those 41 Qbs were signed to a 2nd contract.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 19, 2023, 11:05:12 PMI'm much more conformable with the Giants winning a few games and their qb coming to them naturally than tanking or trading picks. The teams that have actually hit on qbs recently were all playoff teams the ÿear before the draft in the Eagles, Bill's, and Chiefs. With Burrow, Lawrence, and Herbet being the exceptions but still. The odds are better if you let the Qb come to you whether it's whenever you pick in the 1st or in the 2nd-7th than reaching into the top. Since 2010 41 qbs have been taken in the 1st round and only 1 of those qbs has a super bowl win. Only 11 of those 41 Qbs were signed to a 2nd contract.
Bill B already proved that no matter how good a coach you are players win games. He aid that himself. Obviously good coaching has something to withit ,but what is Daboll Bill Parcels or something? What is sacred about Daboll. He is coaching a last place team and face facts -- this team is not going to do jack xxxx against the Eagles and had embarrassing losses to the Cowboys this year.
Your numbers are circumstantial evidence. QBs don't just come to you. Look at the Detriot Lions. They went and got a cast off and bunch of picks.
Somehow .the Wash Outs are simply godawful against the Jints. DJs only wins in the division mostly are against them 6 turnovers?
Lil Bill has an inept group and maybe he's moving on. Daboll is looking to salvage some credibility so I expect a max effort. Pats? :doh:
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 19, 2023, 11:05:12 PMThe teams that have actually hit on qbs recently were all playoff teams the ÿear before the draft in the Eagles, Bill's, and Chiefs. With Burrow, Lawrence, and Herbet being the exceptions but still. The odds are better if you let the Qb come to you whether it's whenever you pick in the 1st or in the 2nd-7th than reaching into the top.
You're sharing some good data but keep in mind the Chiefs and Bills did trade up for Mahomes and Allen. They didn't move up into the top-5 but they didn't let the draft come to them either. They knew who they wanted and gave up draft capital to get their guy.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 19, 2023, 07:33:32 PMThis is now life as a Giants fan. The Parcells and Coughlin eras are distant memories. Since Coughlin was so unceremoniously pushed out we are stuck in a loop of debating whether winning a meaningless game against a bad team is worth it. We debate whether we've seen enough of a mediocre (on a good day) QB going into his 6th season to determine whether he is actually mediocre or not.
Thank you, Mr. Mara for your steadfast leadership. If there was a Dave Gettleman lifetime achievement award for excellence in incompetence, John Mara would be a finalist every year.
best post ever
Quote from: Dumpster Dan on November 19, 2023, 08:58:45 PMOK I am a sucker for punishment so I am going to stick my neck out but I apologize if I offend anyone
HOW DO YOU EXPECT THEM TO LOSE???
Do you honestly want a team you root for but more importantly the PLAYERS you root for to not try?
Do you really want them to lose to a Bellicheat coached team???
I remember like it was yesterday and I was 10 years old going out to sit in a cold car because the radio reception was better than in the house and I cant ever remember my Dad saying come on we have to root for the Giants to lose
It shouldnt concern me that a few posters on a Giants talk site are already thinking six games from now and hoping for the worst because I believe that there are thousands of 10, 11 and 12 year old kids becoming Giants fans for the first time who arent thinking of next years draft and "maybe" getting a "franchise" QB or a Marvin Harrison. I venture to say that those kids are rooting their little backsides of for Tommy Devito, the 3d QB on the team they are starting to love because the kid who still lives at home and his mother makes his bed is to them out there playing his ass off
Dumpster Dan
Well said , you are spot on !!!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 19, 2023, 07:07:08 PMWe were second last week, but this big win, which gets us to 3-8 on the season, now puts us at 5th overall if we were drafting today.
At 5th overall you can't even get Harrison Jr.
https://www.tankathon.com/nfl
Pats fans are rejoicing tonight.
But Fashanu, Alt, Daniels or Verse might be
The Giants are vexing. They lose when I want them to win and win when I want them to lose. Yeah meaningless game victory :(
Quote from: PSUBeirut on November 19, 2023, 09:39:04 PMI'd much rather have the conversation at the end of the year about how the players didn't quit on each other and the head coach than what we're going to do with the #1 or #2 pick if it comes at the expense of the team quitting on the coach. If that results in a nominally worse draft position, so be it.
I have plenty of sympathy for this point of view and on many levels I can't argue it. I'm not really arguing it. I just would like to know what the medium to longer term plan at QB is. Because it seems painfully obvious now (if it didn't before this season) that Jones is absolutely not the guy and never will be. There is ample, hard evidence now that that that statement is true. And there is basically zero evidence that it's not true. If the plan is to run it back with just Jones, DeVito, and some journeyman next year that will be incredibly disappointing and will just be a clear continuation of QB hell and a capped ceiling of being mediocre. That will be very hard to swallow knowing there were elite QB prospects in this draft.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 19, 2023, 07:07:08 PMWe were second last week, but this big win, which gets us to 3-8 on the season, now puts us at 5th overall if we were drafting today.
At 5th overall you can't even get Harrison Jr.
https://www.tankathon.com/nfl
Pats fans are rejoicing tonight.
It is what it is. i'd love a higher pick, and we will probably still fall at some point. but dude i love winning. i still subject myself to the torture that is being a giants fan. and im tired of being pissed every weekend. sure its a "meaningless" win, but i am so tired of losing i'll take it. you gotta figure half these guys are gonna be back next year. we need to remember/learn how to win. plus dabolls seat is that much hotter if we win 2 games all year. it is what it is. jalen hurts was a 2nd round pick. dexter lawrence was #17. it's not like we cant get solid talent at #5. maybe not the guy we really want, but still good players nonetheless. its a really deep draft at a bunch of positions of need for us. just take the BPA and lets gooooooooo
Quote from: Stringer Bell on November 19, 2023, 07:18:09 PMHow fitting for this team, who was sleep walking the entire first half of the season, to win a few worthless games to blow up their chance of drafting a QB or generational WR.
All for what, to make Daboll look better? To give a handful of fans false hope that Devito is anything more than a backup QB?
Should be no surprise, I guess, as the Giants long have been great at blowing opportunities.
So now we go from drafting Maye to drafting an edge (figure 2 QBs, Harrison, Fashanu go 1-4). Don't get me wrong, I like Latu and feel we need to replace Ojulari, but our D is already solid and the drop off from taking a franchise QB to taking an edge is astronomical.
our D is not solid. thibs needs a bookend guy, and losing williams has hurt us. latu is a beast and would be a tremendous upgrade to both stopping the run which we suck at, and rushing the passer which we suck at most of the time. its every bit as needed as upgrading the oline.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 19, 2023, 11:05:12 PMI'm much more conformable with the Giants winning a few games and their qb coming to them naturally than tanking or trading picks. The teams that have actually hit on qbs recently were all playoff teams the ÿear before the draft in the Eagles, Bill's, and Chiefs. With Burrow, Lawrence, and Herbet being the exceptions but still. The odds are better if you let the Qb come to you whether it's whenever you pick in the 1st or in the 2nd-7th than reaching into the top. Since 2010 41 qbs have been taken in the 1st round and only 1 of those qbs has a super bowl win. Only 11 of those 41 Qbs were signed to a 2nd contract.
that is a great point. and one people forget ALL the time. nothing and no one is guaranteed. caleb will probably have a solid career but it is what it is. this team has fundamental issues, and until we figure it out it really doesnt matter who the qb is. i've asked this question a bunch of times and i never get an answer. lets say we had caleb williams THIS year. how many more games would we have won?
Quote from: Fletch on November 19, 2023, 11:42:53 PMBill B already proved that no matter how good a coach you are players win games. He aid that himself. Obviously good coaching has something to withit ,but what is Daboll Bill Parcels or something? What is sacred about Daboll. He is coaching a last place team and face facts -- this team is not going to do jack xxxx against the Eagles and had embarrassing losses to the Cowboys this year.
Your numbers are circumstantial evidence. QBs don't just come to you. Look at the Detriot Lions. They went and got a cast off and bunch of picks.
much rather go this route honestly. goff is playing great for them. sometimes a change of scenery works wonders for guys. i have a feeling the same will happen to jones. maybe not quite as successful, but he will finish his career somewhere else having more success than he did here.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 20, 2023, 12:33:32 AMYou're sharing some good data but keep in mind the Chiefs and Bills did trade up for Mahomes and Allen. They didn't move up into the top-5 but they didn't let the draft come to them either. They knew who they wanted and gave up draft capital to get their guy.
The Ravens did the same with Lamar.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on November 19, 2023, 09:39:04 PMI'd much rather have the conversation at the end of the year about how the players didn't quit on each other and the head coach than what we're going to do with the #1 or #2 pick if it comes at the expense of the team quitting on the coach. If that results in a nominally worse draft position, so be it.
It's been said before but I think it's worth repeating: players play to win. We as fans generally say things in the heat of the moment and our emotions drive them. We are not the players. We don't practice multiple times a week, throw our bodies around risking injury, to "give a good effort and come up short so we can get a high draft pick."
That's not the mentality or psyche of a player. The majority of them have played this game since they were single-digit years. They're taught to play to win. That doesn't change in the pros. Their pride and ego are on the line every week. Sure, some players make 'business decisions' but by and large, as a unit, they don't quit.
Fans can sit and hope for a loss to get a higher draft pick. Players don't think the same.
The worst team should get the first pick and so on. Deliberately losing to cheat the system isn't good for the integrity of the game. It's harmful and unfair to the players who are giving it their all.
The giants have a great defense that is going to get them victories despite a terrible offense. Because of their overall talent they shouldn't be picking number one. While I'm optimistic, even I was surprised yesterday that they could win with an undrafted 3rd string rookie QB. I hope he wins a few more and they end up with an appropriate draft pick that reflects the talent of the team, averaged over the course of a season. Draft talk before the season ends distracts from the joy of watching the games.
If Thomas, Jones, Barkley, and Taylor weren't injured we wouldn't have started this debate.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 20, 2023, 12:33:32 AMYou're sharing some good data but keep in mind the Chiefs and Bills did trade up for Mahomes and Allen. They didn't move up into the top-5 but they didn't let the draft come to them either. They knew who they wanted and gave up draft capital to get their guy.
You're right. I think that means there is not one way to do it. So if either way can produce results, I'm for the in where we win games. Maybe the best QB we've seen was selected 199th.
i think we have our QB
if tommy continues like this. draft the best available talent give jones a seat on the bench
as #2
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 20, 2023, 12:33:32 AMYou're sharing some good data but keep in mind the Chiefs and Bills did trade up for Mahomes and Allen. They didn't move up into the top-5 but they didn't let the draft come to them either. They knew who they wanted and gave up draft capital to get their guy.
No I agree,I was just saying they got their guy but at #7 and 10 and didn't necessarily need to be in the top 3 to find their guy.
Quote from: BluesCruz on November 20, 2023, 09:26:11 AMi think we have our QB
if tommy continues like this. draft the best available talent give jones a seat on the bench
as #2
Based on 1 good game, against a terrible team?
Quote from: BluesCruz on November 20, 2023, 09:26:11 AMi think we have our QB
if tommy continues like this. draft the best available talent give jones a seat on the bench
as #2
lets see how he develops, and plays against top tier teams. also- if the skins dont turn it over 6 times yesterday they probably win that game. i like what im seeing from him so far. but he looks pretty good for an UDFA in his second game. he has what, 6 td in 3 games now? not bad kid.
Quote from: BluesCruz on November 20, 2023, 09:26:11 AMi think we have our QB
if tommy continues like this. draft the best available talent give jones a seat on the bench
as #2
1 game? GMAFB
Honestly, I'd like to see Neal improve a lot to where there is no doubt he's he will be at least an above average ROT yet Giants still pick top 5 so wr can get a QB with the pick or trade back and still get a QB and also get a draft haul.
It'd be great to see a clear core of 7 players + to build off of plus this upcoming draft.
Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2023, 08:30:06 AMIt's been said before but I think it's worth repeating: players play to win. We as fans generally say things in the heat of the moment and our emotions drive them. We are not the players. We don't practice multiple times a week, throw our bodies around risking injury, to "give a good effort and come up short so we can get a high draft pick."
That's not the mentality or psyche of a player. The majority of them have played this game since they were single-digit years. They're taught to play to win. That doesn't change in the pros. Their pride and ego are on the line every week. Sure, some players make 'business decisions' but by and large, as a unit, they don't quit.
Fans can sit and hope for a loss to get a higher draft pick. Players don't think the same.
Tim,
great post. Sometimes it seems like fans think players and coaches would be in a tank job. I don't think either could ever fathom losing on purpose for a variety of reasons.
First, its just pride and ego, but there is a lot more to it than that.
If you are Daboll and try to tank, the players will see it out and turn on you and it won't be pretty. Then you will be out of job.
For the players, higher draft picks just mean they may find themselves with a rookie taking their job next year. Or better yet, if they are in a contract year, they put low effort on film for their next potential teams....
Owners might want to take sometimes and FO's might even try to set a roster up for failure (look at Houston the last couple of years), but players and coaches don't have that luxury.
I get the want of a higher draft pick in a year like this, but I don't think we should expect or want the players and coaches to lie down for what we hope is the next great Giants QB.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on November 20, 2023, 01:12:14 PMTim,
great post. Sometimes it seems like fans think players and coaches would be in a tank job. I don't think either could ever fathom losing on purpose for a variety of reasons.
First, its just pride and ego, but there is a lot more to it than that.
If you are Daboll and try to tank, the players will see it out and turn on you and it won't be pretty. Then you will be out of job.
For the players, higher draft picks just mean they may find themselves with a rookie taking their job next year. Or better yet, if they are in a contract year, they put low effort on film for their next potential teams....
Owners might want to take sometimes and FO's might even try to set a roster up for failure (look at Houston the last couple of years), but players and coaches don't have that luxury.
I get the want of a higher draft pick in a year like this, but I don't think we should expect or want the players and coaches to lie down for what we hope is the next great Giants QB.
Great point!
In basketball, it's easier to "tank" under the guise of "load management" and the fact that they have an 82-game schedule and the contracts are guaranteed. NFL players don't have that luxury.