An interesting thread from Art Stapleton. He's extolling the virtues of the Giants brain trust QB development.
Whilst many on here are enjoying the DeVito story, very few of us think he's a full time starting.
My question is, if the Giants are so good at developing the QB - why hasn't Jones kicked onto the next level?
I personally think Stapleton is writing a puff piece but I'm interested to read the views of others.
Thread here: https://x.com/art_stapleton/status/1729205751007039658?s=46&t=AA9Ptl-VPYK0JnuHE-oAWA
IMVHO, developing the QB isn't the issue. Building a competent offensive line is.
However, specific to the QB, Jones needs more around him to be successful than most QBs.
Honestly I don't see much difference between DJ and Tommy. Make some occasional throws. Get sacked a lot. Throw too short on 3rd down. DJ runs better.
Finding a QB is thing one. The OL is a crutch. A truly good QB can overcome mediocre OL play to make plays. Josh Allen's OLs were crap until this season. He finds a way to make plays most weeks. We need a guy on his level or nothing else we have will matter.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 27, 2023, 01:58:55 PMFinding a QB is thing one. The OL is a crutch. A truly good QB can overcome mediocre OL play to make plays. Josh Allen's OLs were crap until this season. He finds a way to make plays most weeks. We need a guy on his level or nothing else we have will matter.
I would LOVE for us to have a "mediocre OL" sometime this century.
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They were mediocre last year. Not great. But not nearly as terrible as the Jones followers wants us to believe. Still last in explosive pass plays.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 27, 2023, 02:13:55 PMThey were mediocre last year. Not great. But not nearly as terrible as the Jones followers wants us to believe. Still last in explosive pass plays.
My definition of mediocre is consistently average. The OL was better last year than this year, but they weren't consistently average.
DJ on the other hand WAS mediocre last year. Which is why we had an above average season.
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Quote from: Philosophers on November 27, 2023, 01:56:08 PMHonestly I don't see much difference between DJ and Tommy. Make some occasional throws. Get sacked a lot. Throw too short on 3rd down. DJ runs better.
DeVito made three stick throws in one game. I don't think Jones has done that in one season. Definitely none this season. The fact that DeVito threw downfield to Hyatt multiple times even if he wasn't wide open already makes him a better QB.
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 27, 2023, 02:13:55 PMThey were mediocre last year. Not great. But not nearly as terrible as the Jones followers wants us to believe. Still last in explosive pass plays.
Do you think calling people cultists for not agreeing with your views on Daniel Jones will convince people to agree with you?
Quote from: Uni on November 27, 2023, 02:18:53 PMDeVito made three stick throws in one game. I don't think Jones has done that in one season. Definitely none this season. The fact that DeVito threw downfield to Hyatt multiple times even if he wasn't wide open already makes him a better QB.
Definitely Ballsier (yes I don't think that's in Websters' but I think you get my point).
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Maybe not, but it has reached the point of ridiculousness. Eli didn't get this level of fan support in his best years. Jones has not had on truly good season. But let's blame everyone else. I'm tired of watching a crappy product.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 27, 2023, 02:19:48 PMDo you think calling people cultists for not agreeing with your views on Daniel Jones will convince people to agree with you?
Quote from: Dgoodmantrublu on November 27, 2023, 02:23:52 PMMaybe not, but it has reached the point of ridiculousness. Eli didn't get this level of fan support in his best years. Jones has not had on truly good season. But let's blame everyone else. I'm tired of watching a crappy product.
We all are. But there's no room for negatively labeling a group of folks who feel differently than you.
Quote from: T200 on November 27, 2023, 02:39:32 PMWe all are. But there's no room for negatively labeling a group of folks who feel differently than you.
Tim:
Fully agreed, although would it not be accurate to say that the phrase "Jones haters" was commonplace here for years, even for people who said he was just "decent" or "middle of the road"?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 27, 2023, 02:46:35 PMTim:
Fully agreed, although would it not be accurate to say that the phrase "Jones haters" was commonplace here for years, even for people who said he was just "decent" or "middle of the road"?
You're 100% correct, Dave. Cleaning up a huge mess starts with a bit of debris at a time. Hopefully others chip in and help.
Quote from: T200 on November 27, 2023, 02:48:15 PMYou're 100% correct, Dave. Cleaning up a huge mess starts with a bit of debris at a time. Hopefully others chip in and help.
Tim,
100% fair and I agree.
Jones is not a good qb, he wasn't at Duke, and he hasn't been in the NFL. You can't develop someone that's lacking everything mentally to play the position he plays. Yes he's tough but beyond that he can't process, and still habitually makes the same rookie mistakes.
I'd argue Jones was so bad he made the offense look significantly worse than it actually was this year.
Quote from: Uni on November 27, 2023, 02:18:53 PMDeVito made three stick throws in one game. I don't think Jones has done that in one season. Definitely none this season. The fact that DeVito threw downfield to Hyatt multiple times even if he wasn't wide open already makes him a better QB.
Amen
Jones is a very stiff qb.....his game is wound tight and just has zero rythym
he tries too hard.....overthinks everything
Tommy is cool as a cucumber
very different styles and results
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 27, 2023, 04:22:17 PMJones is not a good qb, he wasn't at Duke, and he hasn't been in the NFL. You can't develop someone that's lacking everything mentally to play the position he plays. Yes he's tough but beyond that he can't process, and still habitually makes the same rookie mistakes.
I'd argue Jones was so bad he made the offense look significantly worse than it actually was this year.
Still, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 27, 2023, 05:26:08 PMStill, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.
Maybe he'll take him for a comp pick
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 27, 2023, 06:13:00 PMMaybe he'll take him for a comp pick
We're the only team and fanbase who regard Jones as a quality starter.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 27, 2023, 06:17:26 PMWe're the only team and fanbase who regard Jones as a quality starter.
The Giants fans and press and ownership live in a bubble. Best evaluations are made objectively from the outside. That is why Jones is ranked as he has been. Middle to lower pack QB.
Quote from: katkavage on November 27, 2023, 06:35:50 PMThe Giants fans and press and ownership live in a bubble. Best evaluations are made objectively from the outside. That is why Jones is ranked as he has been. Middle to lower pack QB.
As an organization and fan base we are highly guilty of overrating our own players. To be fair to Jones, he is not the only one. It has been going on for quite a while. We also get much more emotional about players than other teams do, including when we're losing, which has been the vast majority of the past decade. See guys like Shepard and Barkley. We get way more emotional about players than players get emotional about the team and its fans. See the countless examples of times fans get miffed when a player the team is looking to re-sign doesn't give us a "hometown discount."
Here is my 4 cents:
1- Our O line is performing better than earlier in the season, mostly due to the addition of Pugh and also Phillips taking some snaps over Neal, who is a bust at Tackle imo. Devito is still being sacked a lot, but these seem to be more coverage sacks than constant collapse of the pocket like DJ was experiencing earlier.
2- Devito seems to be an unpolished Diamond in the rough. Credit goes mostly to those who were able to see his potential and secondly to the coaching (imho). He has more mental edge to him than physical, but he has enough of both to help him succeed and even become a good starter in the league.
3- Whether it's talent deficiency or coaching or play calling, the Receivers are disappointing in getting separation quickly, so our QBs could to throw to them, before they have to tuck it in. Unfortunately, watching regular TV camera angles, it is difficult to know who and what is at fault; but Devito, who is not afraid to sling it, is clearly looking and looking, then he either pulls it in and gets sacked or runs. I would love to hear from others on this, if they have better information.
Tommy has made the best pure throws in his short term than Jones ever did this year TD shows antipaction and touch rarely seen from DJ.
Now is that Daboll's influence or simply that Jones can't cut it? He was so awful this year, it's hard for others to look worse..quite frankly.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 27, 2023, 05:26:08 PMStill, I would like to see what Andy Reid would do with DJ.
I suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited. Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups. It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games. Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper. It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll. In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.
I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer: why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely? I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into a sustained above average/PB starter, simply by changing coaches. Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers. Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 27, 2023, 11:51:03 PMTommy has made the best pure throws in his short term than Jones ever did this year TD shows antipaction and touch rarely seen from DJ.
Now is that Daboll's influence or simply that Jones can't cut it? He was so awful this year, it's hard for others to look worse..quite frankly.
I don't think Jones is as bad as he played this year, if that makes any sense. This year was particularly bad, and I think he's capable of better than what he did in 2023.
However, the facts on the ground still are what they are. The bottom line is he got outplayed by not one but two of his own teammates at the same position dealing with the same conditions. That is not to say these other QBs did well, but the point here is they definitely weren't worse than Jones. Both were better by the numbers and the eye test. These QB teammates make small fractions (tiny, in DeVito's case) of what Jones is now making. It's simply not a good look, and the organization knows it. It is in plain view for everyone to see now. The jig is up.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 28, 2023, 06:37:29 AMI suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited. Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups. It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games. Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper. It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll. In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.
I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer: why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely? I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into an above average starter, simply by changing coaching. Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers. Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple.
Totally agree King, and there are examples all over the place that back your point up.
Joe Montana had probably his best season ever in 1989. That was the year Seifert took over for Walsh. Was Seifert a better coach than Bill Walsh? Or was Montana just a an elite player who played great throughout his career and happened to put up his best numbers that year?
Bill Walsh was an all time great and a legend. Seifert is basically an afterthought. Shouldn't Montana's performance have collapsed in 1989, if coaches have such influence? Why was that pretty much his best season?
Quote from: kingm56 on November 28, 2023, 06:37:29 AMI suspect he would improve on par with Peterson, Sanchez, Detmer, and Hoying...other QBs with physical attributes that failed under Andy Reid. The HC ability to overcome physical and mental short-comings is very limited. Even the veteran players such as Vick, Bradford, and Smith did not tangibly improve under Reids' direction. They all remained within their perspective tier groups. It's also not lost on me that prior to pairing with Patrick Mahomes, Andy Reid was considered a good coach, who couldn't win big games. Now he's considered an all-time great HC and QB whisper. It's the same paradigm as Tom Brady and Bill B, or Kelly and our own Brian Daboll. In short, I submit Andy Reid would fail to significantly alter DJ's trajectory as the QB is more important to the coach, than the coach to the QB.
I'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer: why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely? I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into a sustained above average/PB starter, simply by changing coaches. Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers. Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple.
https://www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2016/4/22/11477522/veteran-nfl-qbs-who-got-better-after-changing-teams
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 28, 2023, 09:04:38 AMhttps://www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2016/4/22/11477522/veteran-nfl-qbs-who-got-better-after-changing-teams
Bill Parcells- Phil Simms
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 28, 2023, 09:07:10 AMBill Parcells- Phil Simms
Reid had a hand in the development of McNabb, Vick, Smith and as an assistant Farve.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 28, 2023, 06:37:29 AMI'd like to pose the following question to anyone who cares to answer: why do fans believe coaching can tangibility alter a veteran players' trajectory, when 99.9% of the data proves it's unlikely? I can't think of a single example of a below average QB, who started 60 games, that was transformed into a sustained above average/PB starter, simply by changing coaches. Yet, we continue to talk about coaching and 'the system' as if they make tangible differences on veteran QB's careers. Why? I think fans overcomplicate football; coaching is not the impetus for DJ failures, he's failing because he lacks the attributes to succeed. As JC stated, he just not very good. IMO, it really is that simple.
I asked this question a while ago in a Bill Belichick thread: If Tom Brady gets drafted by another team, would we even know who Tom Brady is?
Belichick has a brilliant football mind and, IMHO, is the best coach to ever walk the sidelines. I felt some type of way when folks suggested that Brady "made" Belichick the great coach that he is. I don't think so. It was indeed a symbiotic relationship. Brady was an ideal student. He wasn't drafted high and didn't have these lofty accolades and accomplishments in college, so there was no ego with him. He did, however, have a chip on his shoulder and an aversion to losing. He was a sponge and soaked up everything Bill had to offer.
In the end, I think it was a case of the student surpassing the teacher in terms of being able to directly affect how the team performed on the field. Brady took Belichick's football vision and made it happen.
Similar to Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan. Is Jordan the GOAT without Phil?
Quote from: T200 on November 28, 2023, 09:14:52 AMI asked this question a while ago in a Bill Belichick thread: If Tom Brady gets drafted by another team, would we even know who Tom Brady is?
Belichick has a brilliant football mind and, IMHO, is the best coach to ever walk the sidelines. I felt some type of way when folks suggested that Brady "made" Belichick the great coach that he is. I don't think so. It was indeed a symbiotic relationship. Brady was an ideal student. He wasn't drafted high and didn't have these lofty accolades and accomplishments in college, so there was no ego with him. He did, however, have a chip on his shoulder and an aversion to losing. He was a sponge and soaked up everything Bill had to offer.
In the end, I think it was a case of the student surpassing the teacher in terms of being able to directly affect how the team performed on the field. Brady took Belichick's football vision and made it happen.
Similar to Phil Jackson and Michael Jordan. Is Jordan the GOAT without Phil?
The HC also develops the team around the QB and the Offensive Scheme. Would iconic QB's have been successful without those symbiotic relationships?
" Joe Montana and Steve Young had Bill Walsh. Dan Marino had Don Shula. Dan Fouts had Don Coryell. Johnny Unitas had Weeb Ewbank. Bart Starr had Vince Lombardi. Brett Favre had Mike Holmgren. Roger Staubach had Tom Landry. Peyton Manning had Tony Dungy. Tom Brady has Bill Belichick. Drew Brees has Sean Payton."
https://syndication.bleacherreport.com/amp/1878171-breaking-down-the-relationship-between-nfl-qbs-and-head-coaches.amp.html
Wouldn't it be a hoot if someday...
Brian Daboll- Tommy DeVito
I know one member here that will do victory laps if that day ever comes. And it's not me.
@BluesCruz
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 28, 2023, 06:44:41 AMTotally agree King, and there are examples all over the place that back your point up.
Joe Montana had probably his best season ever in 1989. That was the year Seifert took over for Walsh. Was Seifert a better coach than Bill Walsh? Or was Montana just a an elite player who played great throughout his career and happened to put up his best numbers that year?
Bill Walsh was an all time great and a legend. Seifert is basically an afterthought. Shouldn't Montana's performance have collapsed in 1989, if coaches have such influence? Why was that pretty much his best season?
Interesting comparison. Methinks it was less about the transition of Walsh to Seifert than it was a veteran 49ers team, with an abundance of leadership on both sides of the ball, who stuck together and committed to each other the goal to repeat.
I will offer one benefit of Walsh yielding to Seifert, though, and that is the turmoil Walsh put that team through in 1988 almost cost his team a chance to win it all. He blew it the year before in that shocking loss to Minnesota and I suspect he was feeling the inner turmoil regarding his own ability to coach. His impeccable standard was nearly his downfall several times throughout his career. By 1989, their team was a powerhouse and a class above the rest of the league. Seifert was an excellent defensive coordinator and had all of Walsh's coordinators intact. But most important, the 49ers no longer had that inner turmoil of Walsh grinding them down because it became counterproductive by then. Their season and playoff run was testament to that. Laying 55 on the Broncos was unheard of and still boggles my mind today.
Remember that in 1988 Walsh was rotating Montana and Young and the team floundered at 6-5 before he decides to stick with Joe. Montana never forgot that and played perhaps his best football from that point until Leonard Marshall nearly killed him in the 1990 NFC Championship Game.
Sorry for the history conjecture, but your post just jarred a ton of football memories out of my brain. During that period, I was pi$$ed all the time because I knew only the Giants could stand toe to toe with those guys. The three regular season games from 1988-90 were all neck and neck affairs. But our guys got them at the one game they wanted the most, the three-peat conference championship. That loss devastated their organization so badly it set them back a couple of years and ended Montana's career in SF. If you think about that, how can you not be overwhelmed by that? That game alone, in my opinion, put Parcells in the Hall of Fame. It was his greatest coaching effort on display.
Giants-49ers rivalry was far more intense than 49ers-Cowboys.
Peace!
This board has evolved into a view that the only thing that affects winning is a QB's play. While QB play is extremely important it is not everything. Team chemistry, player communication, coach-player communication, development, all three units (i.e. offense, defense and special teams) performing well especially at key moments all matter.
Fans use one off examples to make broad generalizations then say the facts soeak for themselves. How does anyone know if Michael Jordan would be a GOAT if he played on a team with a completely different style coach whose personality and style of coaching was 180 degrees different than Phil?
Tom Brady won a SB playing for a different head coach. It's one example. It proves nothing.
Team sports require so many things to fall in a positive way and for a level of personal play to be one of never giving up.
Michigan beat Ohio St not because of a QB but because of so many other things, many of them intangible.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 28, 2023, 10:17:22 AMMichigan beat Ohio St not because of a QB but because of so many other things, many of them intangible.
I respectfully disagree with this statement:
McCord is a TERRIBLE QUARTERBACK who chokes at big moments. He has by far the best skill positions in the country, and is backed up by one of the top defenses in the country.
This game based on pure talent comparison should not have been close. Ohio State should've won by two touchdowns.
Their HC - QB lost the game.
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on November 28, 2023, 12:47:22 PMI respectfully disagree with this statement:
McCord is a TERRIBLE QUARTERBACK who chokes at big moments. He has by far the best skill positions in the country, and is backed up by one of the top defenses in the country.
This game based on pure talent comparison should not have been close. Ohio State should've won by two touchdowns.
Their HC - QB lost the game.
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I don't know how you can say that. Michigan has better QB play, total RB play and OL play. OSU has better WRs but they have had better WRs for the past 3 years and they have lost all 3 times. On D, their DLs are damn close but Michigan has much more depth. They can rotate in three fresh DL with no drop off. Ohio State has better LBs. In the secondary, OSU's Denzel Burke and Michigan's Will Johson are a tie. Michigan's Rod Moore is a better safety than anyone in OSU's secondary. Rest of secondaries are a push. Michigan's special teams are better.
This is McCord's first season so hard to say he chokes. In the second of two INTs, McCord's arm was hit by a DL as he released it. Not on him.
Ohio State did not lose the game. Michigan won the game, but it was a well played game on both sides. Michigan won the rushing battle and therefore time of possession and turnover battles. Their defense had OSU contained most of the game. When Ohio State needed to stop Michigan in the last two possessions, they could not. Game over.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 28, 2023, 09:04:38 AMhttps://www.milehighreport.com/platform/amp/2016/4/22/11477522/veteran-nfl-qbs-who-got-better-after-changing-teams
Ed,
In the 45 years of football this list covers, it's an incredibly weak list, especially when compared to the literal thousands of examples that prove the point. You're talking about less than 1% of QBs, which should be considered the margin, not the norm. The game is also fundamentally different than when Jim Plunkett, Rich Gannon, Harbaugh, Steve Young, Testaverde, and Randall Cunningham entered the league in the 80s, which is why I'm always careful to use 30 years as a threshold. BTW, Cunningham is a super odd example as he was a 3x Pro Bowl/AP QB before going to Minn. He passed for more yards in Minn than Phil, but so did every other QB who played in the 2000s vice 80s; again, the game changed. There's no way Minn Cunningham was better than Phili Cunningham; the latter was dangerous.
Moreover, Plummer, Chandler and Smith did not significantly improve; in fact, all three were replaced with other QBs, while each were in their primes. Den spent a #1 pick on Cutler when Plummer was just 31, KC #1 on Mahomes when Smith was only 32. Chandler is another odd example, as he had two good seasons in Atl, followed by 3 bad ones, leading to him being cut and replaced by Doug Johnson in 2002; he was just 33. IMO, the fact there are no recent tangible examples speaks volumes.