(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GACxDJgWkAAeD7v?format=jpg&name=large)
https://x.com/throwthedamball/status/1729576931299823974?s=20
Wan'Dale just isn't very good.
Not for a top 50 pick anyway.
The best thing about the chart in the O.P. is how the NY logo stands out from the others. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 29, 2023, 12:35:28 PMWan'Dale just isn't very good.
Not for a top 50 pick anyway.
DB: I advise caution in interpreting the chart. Focusing on just the Giants players shown...
They each run different routes from a variety of starting positions and are featured against different defenses.
Some types of routes don't register on the "separation" chart. For one thing, I think it only include routes run on the defensive side of the line of scrimmage. For another, the longer the routes you're asked to run, the greater your opportunity to gain separation.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 29, 2023, 01:09:58 PMDB: I advise caution in interpreting the chart. Focusing on just the Giants players shown...
They each run different routes from a variety of starting positions and are featured against different defenses.
Some types of routes don't register on the "separation" chart. For one thing, I think it only include routes run on the defensive side of the line of scrimmage. For another, the longer the routes you're asked to run, the greater your opportunity to gain separation.
Bob
Bob,
Just to be clear, I had that opinion before I saw this chart. It didn't really bolster or weaken my view. It was more just a comment. I simply don't think Robinson was a good pick where we took him. Is he worthy of being on an NFL roster? Yes, for sure. Is he as good as what I would expect for a wide receiver taken in the top 50? No. Do I think he's durable? No. Overall just not a very good pick in my opinion.
That doesn't mean his useless. Just means I think we could have done better. Or, put another way, I think you can get players who are similar to Wan'Dale (give or take) later in the draft most years, if that's the sort of player you're after.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 29, 2023, 12:35:28 PMWan'Dale just isn't very good.
Not for a top 50 pick anyway.
I think you have to consider how the WR is used as well. If a WR is used mostly as a short yardage WR less time to get separation. Maybe that's why WanDale is where he is.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 29, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI think you have to consider how the WR is used as well. If a WR is used mostly as a short yardage WR less time to get separation. Maybe that's why WanDale is where he is.
And how often targeted and made catches for a body of work. Aiyuk is a beast and the Giants didn't have to face him TY. He was out.
Quote from: Philosophers on November 29, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI think you have to consider how the WR is used as well. If a WR is used mostly as a short yardage WR less time to get separation. Maybe that's why WanDale is where he is.
Phil: Thanks for saying in one sentence what I didn't make clear in my entire post. lol
nice to see our WRs are moving up the stack
for years we had one of the worst WR stables in the NFL
Another factor is Waller who for all practical purposes is a WR (plays like one anyway)
Would love to see Tommy D and Kafka use Bellinger more
Quote from: Philosophers on November 29, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI think you have to consider how the WR is used as well. If a WR is used mostly as a short yardage WR less time to get separation. Maybe that's why WanDale is where he is.
I think Jeff's point still stands. Is a top 50 pick worth spending on a 'Short Yardage" WR, who's not adept at moving the chains? Obviously, Robinson is not going to play the X, as he lacks the speed to do so; his game is predicated on twitch, which limits him to the Y. Thus, we spent a high draft pick on a WR with limited adaptability/range, which I believe is Jeff's point.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 30, 2023, 07:56:44 AMI think Jeff's point still stands. Is a top 50 pick worth spending on a 'Short Yardage" WR, who's not adept at moving the chains? Obviously, Robinson is not going to play the X, as he lacks the speed to do so; his game is predicated on twitch, which limits him to the Y. Thus, we spent a high draft pick on a WR with limited adaptability/range, which I believe is Jeff's point.
king: It's a good point, but somebody has to do that job. His predecessor was 40th overall (2nd round) (Shep).
IMO you get your players anywhere you can and be grateful they're not busts. Robinson is not a bust.
When Saquon is gone (or they stop over-using him) I think you'll see that Robinson can do a lot of other stuff too. He's a good piece to the puzzle. That's why they picked him (versatility) so to that extent I agree strongly with the point... I think they're trying to give him a greater variety but choosing between him and Saquon is usually an easy choice because Saquon is the better pass-blocker.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 30, 2023, 08:06:21 AMking: It's a good point, but somebody has to do that job. His predecessor was 40th overall (2nd round) (Shep).
IMO you get your players anywhere you can and be grateful they're not busts. Robinson is not a bust.
When Saquon is gone (or they stop over-using him) I think you'll see that Robinson can do a lot of other stuff too. He's a good piece to the puzzle. That's why they picked him (versatility) so to that extent I agree strongly with the point... I think they're trying to give him a greater variety but choosing between him and Saquon is usually an easy choice because Saquon is the better pass-blocker.
Bob
That's a fair point, Bob; plus, it's one I happen to agree with. A WR like Ike Hillard is invaluable to team; however, Robinson hasn't demonstrated those abilities. In retrospect, would you draft Robinson again? I wouldn't, which mean's I agree with Jeff's overall premise.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 30, 2023, 08:06:21 AMking: It's a good point, but somebody has to do that job. His predecessor was 40th overall (2nd round) (Shep).
IMO you get your players anywhere you can and be grateful they're not busts. Robinson is not a bust.
When Saquon is gone (or they stop over-using him) I think you'll see that Robinson can do a lot of other stuff too. He's a good piece to the puzzle. That's why they picked him (versatility) so to that extent I agree strongly with the point... I think they're trying to give him a greater variety but choosing between him and Saquon is usually an easy choice because Saquon is the better pass-blocker.
Bob
He's not being utilized properly by the QB and sometimes the route. He should be the Wes Welker or the Beasley. Tommy has passed on him for the deeper routes. He's the guy that get you the third down conversion when the Defense sends the house. He can be used in the Slot or the Z. He can be used coming out of the backfield. As long as he's off the Line and not pressed he will get open. He's the perfect Receiver for Tyrod Taylor.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 30, 2023, 08:24:17 AMThat's a fair point, Bob; plus, it's one I happen to agree with. A WR like Ike Hillard is invaluable to team; however, Robinson hasn't demonstrated those abilities. In retrospect, would you draft Robinson again? I wouldn't, which mean's I agree with Jeff's overall premise.
king: My answer is no... but ONLY because he has been injured "too much."
If you told me the same guy wouldn't be injured in his 1st good game (about 3 of 4 games into last yr according to my lousy memory) and told me he would play every game this year, then I absolutely would have still taken him.
It's my view he's much better than he has shown, primarily because he is used to getting a Saquon-level work load and once he starts seeing the ball more and staying on the field longer (and for more games in a row) he'll show why they drafted him.
Bob
Quote from: Philosophers on November 29, 2023, 03:46:48 PMI think you have to consider how the WR is used as well. If a WR is used mostly as a short yardage WR less time to get separation. Maybe that's why WanDale is where he is.
Here's the thing, short yardage WRs should be scoring high on the YAC axis. Right now, Won'Dale is below average in both separation and yards after the catch
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 30, 2023, 08:32:51 AMHe's not being utilized properly by the QB and sometimes the route. He should be the Wes Welker or the Beasley. Tommy has passed on him for the deeper routes. He's the guy that get you the third down conversion when the Defense sends the house. He can be used in the Slot or the Z. He can be used coming out of the backfield. As long as he's off the Line and not pressed he will get open. He's the perfect Receiver for Tyrod Taylor.
Ed: Yes, I often wonder how someone here sees something that those guys (the professionals) seem to be missing.
I can usually find good reasons to explain why the professionals are right and we're full of it.
This is NOT one of those times.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 30, 2023, 09:04:14 AMHere's the thing, short yardage WRs should be scoring high on the YAC axis. Right now, Won'Dale is below average in both separation and yards after the catch
Rich: That's an area for IMO possibly legit disappointment with Won'Dale (as opposed to failure to get open).
The problem is that I don't have time to re-watch the games just to eyeball him.
Again, give him a few games. He's used to getting "over-used" and I believe he's still adjusting to the role they have set for him so far in his brief career (a second-fiddle spot contributor). I am confident he WILL adjust to it before the end of this season if he can avoid further missed time due to injury. I see a better player each week, although the bar has been set fairly low (except for that ONE game in his rookie year).
Bob
Separation is only measured if a ball is caught.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 30, 2023, 07:56:44 AMI think Jeff's point still stands. Is a top 50 pick worth spending on a 'Short Yardage" WR, who's not adept at moving the chains? Obviously, Robinson is not going to play the X, as he lacks the speed to do so; his game is predicated on twitch, which limits him to the Y. Thus, we spent a high draft pick on a WR with limited adaptability/range, which I believe is Jeff's point.
Yes that's correct, Matt. As stated earlier I hardly think Wan'Dale is useless, and it's reasonable to think he could get better and be a respectable player, but if he were going to be seriously good (ie pro bowl caliber), despite all the injuries, I suspect we'd know he has that type of potential by now. I do think he has a role, but he's limited. When you watch Jalen Hyatt play, the upside profile is significantly different from Wan'Dale's. Is that not a fair statement? And we got Hyatt a round later than we got Wan'Dale. At the moment at least, he looks like a much more talented player with much more upside.
The argument of saying "consider how he's being used" reminds me a bit of when people were saying Daniel Jones "did everything that was asked of him" in 2022. While that may be a factually accurate statement, it's really only a half-compliment. If what is being asked of you is limited in nature and deliberately simplified, then that says something about how much they believe you are capable of contributing.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 30, 2023, 08:51:50 AMking: My answer is no... but ONLY because he has been injured "too much."
If you told me the same guy wouldn't be injured in his 1st good game (about 3 of 4 games into last yr according to my lousy memory) and told me he would play every game this year, then I absolutely would have still taken him.
It's my view he's much better than he has shown, primarily because he is used to getting a Saquon-level work load and once he starts seeing the ball more and staying on the field longer (and for more games in a row) he'll show why they drafted him.
Bob
Robinson has been injured once and has been injury free since returning. If you just focus on is performance you can easily make the case that he was drafted too high.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 30, 2023, 09:33:03 AMThe argument of saying "consider how he's being used" reminds me a bit of when people were saying Daniel Jones "did everything that was asked of him" in 2022. While that may be a factually accurate statement, it's really only a half-compliment. If what is being asked of you is limited in nature and deliberately simplified, then that says something about how much they believe you are capable of contributing.
DB: I see where you're going. I don't know the answer to this question but you may want to start a separate topic about it (framing the issue as you see fit). I've been wondering about this for years...
Hypothetical: you're a highly drafted NFL QB and you come to a team that hasn't been doing well recently.
Your personality could be... (1) "they're paying me a lot of money, so I'll just follow their instructions since they are "experts" in the pro game compared to me." (2) Your personality could instead be... "I did well in college and can football games, so if they ask me to do stuff I think is contrary to my style I'll speak up and challenge them and show them how to adapt my college game to winning in the NFL."
Either of those attitudes is certainly acceptable. But both can blow up in your face. The worst-case scenarios are as follows: (a) in the first case, you do as they ask and are maybe too "sheepish" or a "don't-rock-the-boat" person who just keeps trying harder (spinning your wheels) as the boat sinks; and (b) in the second case, you simply never get along with your coaching staff and things go wrong, so you implode.
My belief is that either type of QB can succeed, and either type can fail in the NFL. It's a matter of "fit" and a bit of luck (how well the team supports you with a decent surround cast).
Bob
Quote from: TDToomer on November 30, 2023, 09:59:24 AMRobinson has been injured once and has been injury free since returning. If you just focus on is performance you can easily make the case that he was drafted too high.
TD: Agree, but as a percentage of his time on the team, he HAS been injured "too much." After his one injury he missed the entire remainder of his rookie season and the first part of this one. In other words, what I'm saying is that, realistically, he is still a rookie. Bob
https://x.com/danschneiernfl/status/1729895044625092709?
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 30, 2023, 11:09:27 AMre: your video above.
Ed: It shows why they drafted him. His peripheral vision is outstanding and makes him very elusive if only the QB can get him the ball. To get him the ball all 11 of his teammates (especially the QB, acting ON TIME and with accuracy) must do their jobs correctly. I can foresee a time when at least half of Saquon's running plays for two yards on first down are replaced by the play in the video. Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 29, 2023, 12:35:28 PMWan'Dale just isn't very good.
Not for a top 50 pick anyway.
He isn't being used properly and hasn't gotten enough reps. I prefer him to Slayton and Hodgins. We just haven't had a qb to get him the ball in space and let him work.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 30, 2023, 01:01:41 PMHe isn't being used properly and hasn't gotten enough reps. I prefer him to Slayton and Hodgins. We just haven't had a qb to get him the ball in space and let him work.
I certainly would agree that there is room for improvement. I mean he has 265 receiving yards in 10 games in year two. That's not good. I agree that he has the ability to be more productive than that, and I expect him to be. I appreciate that he's still just 22 and that he has had some injuries, which have likely slowed his development to this point. I'm not killing the guy. I just don't see him ever being a genuinely game-changing type player for us. I see him as more of a supplemental player, and maybe he can be a pretty solid one at some point. Hyatt is a guy I see as having game-changing potential. Just a different caliber talent in my opinion. And in the top 50, all things equal, I would prefer to be drafting guys who offer a higher best case ceiling than being the next Cole Beasley or Randall Cobb.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 29, 2023, 12:30:15 PM(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GACxDJgWkAAeD7v?format=jpg&name=large)
https://x.com/throwthedamball/status/1729576931299823974?s=20
What a disappointment hodgins has been. he looked so good at the end of last year, and EVERY single week i see him on the GOAT list. was really hoping he'd develop into that #1 but i would be surprised if he even makes the team next year.
Quote from: Bob In PA on November 30, 2023, 10:13:56 AMTD: Agree, but as a percentage of his time on the team, he HAS been injured "too much." After his one injury he missed the entire remainder of his rookie season and the first part of this one. In other words, what I'm saying is that, realistically, he is still a rookie. Bob
You're moving the goal posts. So no player is allowed to get injured his rookie season. You must have hated Toomer who missed even more games his first 2 season.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 30, 2023, 09:33:03 AMThe argument of saying "consider how he's being used" reminds me a bit of when people were saying Daniel Jones "did everything that was asked of him" in 2022. While that may be a factually accurate statement, it's really only a half-compliment. If what is being asked of you is limited in nature and deliberately simplified, then that says something about how much they believe you are capable of contributing.
The big difference in those two (Jones and Robinson) is that Jones touches the ball every single play. Robinson's touches are dependent upon multiple factors: where he is in the route tree, if he's open or has enough separation, whether the QB sees him when he's open or has separation, and chemistry with the QB.
Jones's favorite targets were Shep and Slayton. This year it was Slayton, Campbell, and whoever was closest to him.
I think Robinson will be a great player. Whoever the QB is will have to be better at surveying the field and quick in his decisions when he see players open, whether it's Hyatt, Hodgins, or Robinson.
Quote from: T200 on December 01, 2023, 08:58:57 AMThe big difference in those two (Jones and Robinson) is that Jones touches the ball every single play. Robinson's touches are dependent upon multiple factors: where he is in the route tree, if he's open or has enough separation, whether the QB sees him when he's open or has separation, and chemistry with the QB.
Jones's favorite targets were Shep and Slayton. This year it was Slayton, Campbell, and whoever was closest to him.
I think Robinson will be a great player. Whoever the QB is will have to be better at surveying the field and quick in his decisions when he see players open, whether it's Hyatt, Hodgins, or Robinson.
Interesting, T2. Can you define "great" in this context? Like do you see him as being a 3-4x pro bowler?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 01, 2023, 09:01:24 AMInteresting, T2. Can you define "great" in this context? Like do you see him as being a 3-4x pro bowler?
I don't give a lot of credence to PB selections. It's great for the player to get acknowledged and there could be contract clauses that give them a bonus for being selected. But it's more of a popularity contest in my mind.
WRT your question about Robinson being great, depending on how the OC would use and feature him, I see him as a Deebo-lite type of player. He could be the #2 receiver behind Hyatt in terms of catches and possibly yards. I believe he's a move-the-chains player. Someone else (maybe Bob) mentioned he should be getting touches like Ed McCaffrey, Wes Welker, and Julian Edelman. To me, Robinson can be in that category.