https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2023/11/30/new-york-giants-brian-daboll-patriots-way-approach-doesnt-fly-wink-martindale/
I was one of the first to dismiss Glazer's report, I hold my hand up. This isn't good.
If this is true, I hope they mend fences
A new coaching style could stall any improvement we have seen with certain players (including Dex). We have seen defense change from Agressive to a zone type defense and certain players not transition well.
Losing Wink would be a huge loss
This is what the NY media does. Finally the ship is pointing in the right direction and with nothing else to report, they continue to pick at it and it takes on a life of its own.
Good for Wink for standing up for himself as a Veteran Coach but good for Daboll for having the balls to call a spade a spade. The wheels were coming off the Defensive and the last two weeks they went from xxxx Show to Magic Show.
I like that Daboll believes in accountability and not just talks the talk. If it's behind closed doors, that's where it should be handled. That said, Daboll needs to recognize that maybe taking a chapter out of the Parcells book is prudent. You can't treat or speak to every man the same way. You find out what works and adjust on the way. I think he gets that as it's evident in how he mentors Tommy and after being frustrated, he needed to show he was visibly upset with Daniel Jones.
I have to say, whatever transpired between him and Wink, set the Defense back on track.
I also stand by my statement in the other thread: two strong-willed personalities may clash but neither will walk away with bruised egos.
If the reports are true, Wink is capable of handling himself and said exactly what he wanted from Daboll. I'm good with it and as long as Daboll checks himself, all will be fine. If not, there could be a change.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 30, 2023, 10:02:15 AMThis is what the NY media does. Finally the ship is pointing in the right direction and with nothing else to report, they continue to pick at it and it takes on a life of its own.
Probably more due to the fact they're losing this year that there's friction on the team. These types of slights and indiscretions are largely ignored when the team is doing well. Also, Glazer isn't NY media and he reported this first--I don't find him to be particularly biased or hot-take-y (for lack of a better word). Now that it's out there, it's getting picked up though...
I think back on how many times Gary Myers and Paul Schwartz fired Tom Coughlin because he lost the team.
Sometimes I think the only one who focus' on what's important is Patty Traina. She had some excellent questions at Daboll's presser.
Good discussion. One more point...
IMO when things implode there's a need to look everywhere in placing blame (and I agree with that methodology).
Don't forget about the criticism coming from the players (McKinney in particular).
IMO this recent "incident" (if real) was just Daboll was doing his "due diligence" in response to McKinney, etc.
I don't think it's a big deal. IMO it should be "business-as-usual" for a head coach. That's his job.
Bob
I get Martinadale's side and I get Daboll's. The Defense has been bad this year. The only good team they played well against was Buffalo. Washington turned the ball over 6 times and still had a chance to win 2 weeks ago. The Patriots might be the worst team in the league despite a better record than Carolina.
Someone mentioned in another thread that maybe the "game ball" to martindale was an "f you" or maybe it was a peace offering. We shall see. But, there very well may be a new DC next season whether Martindale is hired away as a head coach somewhere else or not.
Quote from: coggs on November 30, 2023, 11:25:20 AMI get Martinadale's side and I get Daboll's. The Defense has been bad this year. The only good team they played well against was Buffalo. Washington turned the ball over 6 times and still had a chance to win 2 weeks ago. The Patriots might be the worst team in the league despite a better record than Carolina.
Someone mentioned in another thread that maybe the "game ball" to martindale was an "f you" or maybe it was a peace offering. We shall see. But, there very well may be a new DC next season whether Martindale is hired away as a head coach somewhere else or not.
I saw the video of giving Wink the gameball and that's not how it came across to me. Seemed more like an olive branch.
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 30, 2023, 10:02:15 AMThis is what the NY media does. Finally the ship is pointing in the right direction and with nothing else to report, they continue to pick at it and it takes on a life of its own.
Good for Wink for standing up for himself as a Veteran Coach but good for Daboll for having the balls to call a spade a spade. The wheels were coming off the Defensive and the last two weeks they went from xxxx Show to Magic Show.
I like that Daboll believes in accountability and not just talks the talk. If it's behind closed doors, that's where it should be handled. That said, Daboll needs to recognize that maybe taking a chapter out of the Parcells book is prudent. You can't treat or speak to every man the same way. You find out what works and adjust on the way. I think he gets that as it's evident in how he mentors Tommy and after being frustrated, he needed to show he was visibly upset with Daniel Jones.
I have to say, whatever transpired between him and Wink, set the Defense back on track.
I don't think the "Patriots Way" translates well outside of New England with the greatest coach of all time. Especially as your first head coaching job, you don't really have the right to be a dick to a guy who has led top defenses in this league for years. I get the accountability thing, and I like that, but Daboll has made some really dumb decisions so far this year.
What coaches that learned under Belicheck in New England have gone on to be very successful? We already saw Judge.... Matt Patricia was awful, Josh McDaniels is atrocious, I like Vrabel but don't think he ever coached under BB. Eric Mangini.... Brian Flores.... Bill O'Brien...
I think the "Patriot's Way" only works for one guy and that's honestly probably because he was blessed with Brady for 2 damn decades.
So far, the "Patriots Way" seems to only work when a team has the GOAT playing QB for them.
"Patriots Way" ???
Heck Daboll should have learned by now that is just about the only team we consistently own.
Ownership, including Schoen should have a talk with Daboll, like they did with TC.
HC, much like players need to develop and improve as their career progresses.
Outside of going for 2 points in last years openerDaboll hasn't shown me anything extraordinary....and this year he showed me things that seriously make me wonder.
I am beginning to think Kafka is not the fly in the ointment on this team and now it appears it ain't Wink either.
The Athletic's Mike Sando (one of the two actual writers that media leech Dan Benton used for his article) made some very good points in his article.
Daboll did something a bit unusual when he put together his staff. He hired many coaches that he had never worked with before or knew well. While this would seem like the best way to optimize a coaching staff, it does seem like it would increase the chances of friction between coaches.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 30, 2023, 12:07:33 PMSo far, the "Patriots Way" seems to only work when a team has the GOAT playing QB for them.
AZR: Yeah, I'll never forget Little Bill also coached in Cleveland for a while. lol
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 30, 2023, 01:20:01 PMThe Athletic's Mike Sando (one of the two actual writers that media leech Dan Benton used for his article) made some very good points in his article.
Daboll did something a bit unusual when he put together his staff. He hired many coaches that he had never worked with before or knew well. While this would seem like the best way to optimize a coaching staff, it does seem like it would increase the chances of friction between coaches.
Especially when Wink interviewed for the HC job in the past. Doesnt seem like the type of guy that's gonna take xxxx from a guy who has proven nothing and took the job he was looking to get.
Sigh, NYG football baby.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 30, 2023, 12:07:33 PMSo far, the "Patriots Way" seems to only work when a team has the GOAT playing QB for them.
It's also possible that the "Patriot's Way" hasn't aged that well. Players today are not the same as the ones playing when the Patriot's Way" was successful.
It's often been said that Vince Lombardi couldn't coach in today's NFL. I argue that he likely could have because he would have adapted to the modern ways of thinking and doing things. Of course sometimes (especially as we get older like Belichick) we become stuck in our ways, and we don't continue to evolve and adapt.
Maybe I'll be wrong, but I have material doubts about Wink being a head coach at any point in the future. He has been a DC for a while now, and in Baltimore he was much more successful than he has been here. I feel like if it was ever going to happen, it would have by now. Are there examples of 60-plus year old first time head coaches who have at least seven years of NFL offensive or defensive coordinator experience? Perhaps there are, but nobody comes to mind.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 30, 2023, 01:46:51 PMMaybe I'll be wrong, but I have material doubts about Wink being a head coach at any point in the future. He has been a DC for a while now, and in Baltimore he was much more successful than he has been here. I feel like if it was ever going to happen, it would have by now. Are there examples of 60-plus year old first time head coaches who have at least seven years of NFL offensive or defensive coordinator experience? Perhaps there are, but nobody comes to mind.
I believe Bruce Arians falls into that category, just barely though.
Quote from: T200 on November 30, 2023, 02:05:19 PMI believe Bruce Arians falls into that category, just barely though.
Good call.
Winning cures all. i feel like this is to be expected when you lose the way we have been. and if its really going down that way, I agree with wink that our offense is so putrid it puts the D in bad situations all game long
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 30, 2023, 01:46:51 PMMaybe I'll be wrong, but I have material doubts about Wink being a head coach at any point in the future. He has been a DC for a while now, and in Baltimore he was much more successful than he has been here. I feel like if it was ever going to happen, it would have by now. Are there examples of 60-plus year old first time head coaches who have at least seven years of NFL offensive or defensive coordinator experience? Perhaps there are, but nobody comes to mind.
I also never liked the thought of D Coordinator as your headcoach. Just not the type of football I like to watch IMO. Again, BB is the exception to the rule. Seems he's the exception to every rule
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 30, 2023, 01:46:51 PMMaybe I'll be wrong, but I have material doubts about Wink being a head coach at any point in the future. He has been a DC for a while now, and in Baltimore he was much more successful than he has been here. I feel like if it was ever going to happen, it would have by now. Are there examples of 60-plus year old first time head coaches who have at least seven years of NFL offensive or defensive coordinator experience? Perhaps there are, but nobody comes to mind.
Agree with you.
Quote from: T200 on November 30, 2023, 02:05:19 PMI believe Bruce Arians falls into that category, just barely though.
Yes but Arians had the benefit of great QB play.
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Quote from: GeauxJints on November 30, 2023, 03:50:50 PMI also never liked the thought of D Coordinator as your headcoach. Just not the type of football I like to watch IMO. Again, BB is the exception to the rule. Seems he's the exception to every rule
Uh, Bill Parcells?
Quote from: Ed Vette on November 30, 2023, 10:22:00 AMI think back on how many times Gary Myers and Paul Schwartz fired Tom Coughlin because he lost the team.
Sometimes I think the only one who focus' on what's important is Patty Traina. She had some excellent questions at Daboll's presser.
She is the best and her podcasts are honest and thoughtful. I think she really takes the time to know the man AND the story.
Quote from: TDToomer on December 01, 2023, 09:20:52 AMUh, Bill Parcells?
Fair point obviously, and there are other examples if we go back decades. I'd say with the way the NFL has evolved in the last 15-20 years though, all things equal it seems more logical to have a strong offensive mind as your head coach. If not, you need a good coordinator, and any good coordinator who has success with you is going to be gone in 1-2 years.
Still, this is not to say there will never be exceptions. Demeco Ryans is certainly looking good so far, and Vrabel is a respected head coach even though the Titans are bad now. So it's still clearly possible to have a good HC with a defensive background. But all things equal I'd rather have a HC who understands offense and QB play and is not a guy you have to worry about bolting for another job the second he has some success.