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I guess I agree, but I would put QB at a much, much higher level than O line.
Disagree. It's DE/DT. They have to replace Leo.
name any QB who could succeed behind the OL's we have fielded this season or last.
any one. past or present.
we have to fix the OL first.
Quote from: President Rick on December 06, 2023, 01:48:22 PMname any QB who could succeed behind the OL's we have fielded this season or last.
any one. past or present.
we have to fix the OL first.
Justin Herbert won OROY behind the 32nd ranked O line (PFF rankings) in the league. Numerous QBs have played materially better than Jones behind bad O lines.
I'm not saying the O line doesn't need work. Clearly it does. But it's easier to draft guards than QBs. They can also be signed in free agency more readily. Further, if we draft a QB, he doesn't have to play as a rookie. We have 6 picks after the first round, and multiple ones can be used on O line. If they are looking for a new starting QB, it is unlikely that they get a better chance than this next draft given the situation they're in and the robustness of the incoming QB class. If (and only if) they are high on one of the QBs who is available to them, I think they should take him, and I am pretty sure they will. That doesn't mean they'll be neglecting the O line.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 01:55:03 PMJustin Herbert won OROY behind the 32nd ranked O line (PFF rankings) in the league. Numerous QBs have played materially better than Jones behind bad O lines.
I'm not saying the O line doesn't need work. Clearly it does. But it's easier to draft guards than QBs. They can also be signed in free agency more readily. Further, if we draft a QB, he doesn't have to play as a rookie. We have 6 picks after the first round, and multiple ones can be used on O line. If they are looking for a new starting QB, it is unlikely that they get a better chance than this next draft given the situation they're in and the robustness of the incoming QB class. If (and only if) they are high on one of the QBs who is available to them, I think they should take him, and I am pretty sure they will. That doesn't mean they'll be neglecting the O-line.
If you are going to use PFF, I would suggest using their pass-blocking rather than O-line ranking. In 2020, the Chargers were 30th in pass blocking (the Giants were 32nd). I would also point out that if you are going to try to overcome poor protection, you need quality receiving targets. In 2020, the Chargers were ranked 12th in receiving. For those who are curious, the Giants were 25th in receiving.
EDIT TO ADD- this year the Giants are 32nd and 32nd in both pass blocking and receiving.
IMO, after QB & OL absolute MUST be pass rusher (not what the fans said - play-makers on offense).
Having "lost" Leo and considering that Ojulari is constantly injured, that is a glaring weakness.
At least there it hasn't been ruled-out, IMO, that Hyatt can attain elite status. Plus Bellinger, Slayton and Robinson, if Hyatt can take a big step up next year (rather than experience the sophomore jinx) then that is IMO a decent to decent+ group.
Bob
My thoughts on the answer. I am not sure if the O-line issue is one of poor coaching or a lack of talent. I tend to think it's more likely to be an issue with coaching combined with the challenges of getting college O-line up to speed with NFL play (the latest Carl Banks podcast addresses this issue).
I tend to think D-line and WR may be greater overall needs
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 06, 2023, 01:34:04 PMDisagree. It's DE/DT. They have to replace Leo.
It's never easy replacing good players but compared to the positions listed in the poll, DT is probably the least difficult to fill through free agency.
Quote from: President Rick on December 06, 2023, 01:48:22 PMname any QB who could succeed behind the OL's we have fielded this season or last.
any one. past or present.
we have to fix the OL first.
The fact that bad QBs haven't been successful behind this OL is not evidence that a great QB wouldn't be successful.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 06, 2023, 02:18:08 PMIf you are going to use PFF, I would suggest using their pass-blocking rather than O-line ranking. In 2020, the Chargers were 30th in pass blocking (the Giants were 32nd). I would also point out that if you are going to try to overcome poor protection, you need quality receiving targets. In 2020, the Chargers were ranked 12th in receiving. For those who are curious, the Giants were 25th in receiving.
EDIT TO ADD- this year the Giants are 32nd and 32nd in both pass blocking and receiving.
Ok, so Herbert won OROY behind the 32nd best overall O Line that was 30th in pass blocking. That in no way negates the point I was making in my post.
I tend to agree with the chart, although ER should be higher IMO. I hope we come away from the draft with the obvious needs, but hopefully pick up the best punt returner in the draft as well. I really see this as a problem. Field position is vital to winning and we usually start wherever the punt lands (give or take a few yards). We need a threat
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 01:31:48 PMI guess I agree, but I would put QB at a much, much higher level than O line.
Agreed. QB is biggest need by a lot. OL would be a distant second ahead of playmakers on O and D.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 02:48:29 PMOk, so Herbert won OROY behind the 32nd best overall O Line that was 30th in pass blocking. That in no way negates the point I was making in my post.
If you drill down, you were responding to
@President Rick, who said there was no way a QB could be successful behind the Giants' offensive line. You disputed that claim by citing Herbert's rookie season.
Since the Giants don't have a top-15-receiving group (to help offset the poor blocking), and their pass blocking is worse than the 2020 Chargers, I think it's fair to say it's doubtful that Herbert would succeed behind the Giants' O-line
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 06, 2023, 02:52:23 PMI think it's fair to say it's doubtful that Herbert would succeed behind the Giants' O-line
That's your personal opinion and that's fine. There's no coherent evidence to support it.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 06, 2023, 02:54:13 PMThat's your personal opinion and that's fine. There's no coherent evidence to support it.
Your fact-free claim (while lacking in supporting evidence or reason) is duly noted. :greetings:
If you would like to share an example of a QB that succeeded with a 32nd ranked pass protection and 32nd ranked receivers I am more than willing to listen
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 06, 2023, 02:57:33 PMYour fact-free claim (while lacking in supporting evidence or reason) is duly noted. :greetings:
A receiving corp is by definition advantaged or disadvantaged by the QB throwing to them. Your attempt to separate the two is your personal opinion, not evidence. Thought that would be obvious to you.
When we're quibbling between 32nd ranked and 30th ranked, we're just wasting time.
I agree OL is the biggest need outside of QB.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 06, 2023, 03:00:36 PMA receiving corp is by definition advantaged or disadvantaged by the QB throwing to them. Your attempt to separate the two is your personal opinion, not evidence. Thought that would be obvious to you.
I am still waiting for you to provide that example of a QB being successful with the worst-ranked pass protection and receivers.
The NFL has been around for nearly 100 years. So if my personal opinion was baseless (as you claimed) you should be able to easily demonstrate it.
Not to include QB in the listing is not right as that is our biggest need by far. Yes, we need help on the OL but we have spent so many high draft picks on this that it seems to get boring that we just can't find some talent in round 2 or 3. Come on, we have 2 #2 picks and use them both for the OL.
After that, we need another pass2 rusher in the worst way.
Quote from: LennG on December 06, 2023, 03:03:30 PMNot to include QB in the listing is not right as that is our biggest need by far. Yes, we need help on the OL but we have spent so many high draft picks on this that it seems to get boring that we just can't find some talent in round 2 or 3. Come on, we have 2 #2 picks and use them both for the OL.
After that, we need another pass2 rusher in the worst way.
I think the purpose was to remove that to see what other need people considered the biggest.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 06, 2023, 03:00:36 PMA receiving corp is by definition advantaged or disadvantaged by the QB throwing to them. Your attempt to separate the two is your personal opinion, not evidence. Thought that would be obvious to you.
Doc: I agree with Rich's view but also agree with you that there is no way to prove it. It's just a hunch. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on December 06, 2023, 03:08:24 PMDoc: I agree with Rich's view but also agree with you that there is no way to prove it. It's just a hunch. Bob
Quote from: LennG on December 06, 2023, 03:03:30 PMNot to include QB in the listing is not right as that is our biggest need by far. Yes, we need help on the OL but we have spent so many high draft picks on this that it seems to get boring that we just can't find some talent in round 2 or 3. Come on, we have 2 #2 picks and use them both for the OL.
After that, we need another pass2 rusher in the worst way.
I think the purpose of not listing the QB is because it's universally known and accepted that QB is our top need. It's almost like saying, "Outside of BLUE, what color is most prominent in the NY Giants?"
Quote from: T200 on December 06, 2023, 03:23:03 PMI think the purpose of not listing the QB is because it's universally known and accepted that QB is our top need. It's almost like saying, "Outside of BLUE, what color is most prominent in the NY Giants?"
Red
You can never have enough edge rushers. That's my pick.
Want to improve the OL? Start with the coach.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 06, 2023, 01:34:04 PMDisagree. It's DE/DT. They have to replace Leo.
I was going to say this as well, DE/DT or a linebacker like Chop Roninson to play opposite Thibs.
The Oline and weapons will be significantly better with a competent Qb which means the Defense needs the love.
So not many believe an ELITE WR is needed more than Oline? The Oline already has three very high draft picks. Coaching may be more of an issue than the talent of the olineman.
Quote from: sooners56 on December 06, 2023, 05:57:15 PMSo not many believe an ELITE WR is needed more than Oline? The Oline already has three very high draft picks. Coaching may be more of an issue than the talent of the olineman.
I am not ready to declare Hyatt elite, but I think he's awfully talented and has a chance to be a top flight NFL receiver. No doubt we could use more help though, whether that is true or not. An elite receiver doesn't help you score lots of points though if your QB play is terrible (see Garrett Wilson on the Jets).
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 06:10:49 PMI am not ready to declare Hyatt elite, but I think he's awfully talented and has a chance to be a top flight NFL receiver. No doubt we could use more help though, whether that is true or not. An elite receiver doesn't help you score lots of points though if your QB play is terrible (see Garrett Wilson on the Jets).
But wasn't he answering the question based on comparison to any position except QB? Like WR he thinks is more of a need than OL, NOT QB.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 01:55:03 PMJustin Herbert won OROY behind the 32nd ranked O line (PFF rankings) in the league. Numerous QBs have played materially better than Jones behind bad O lines.
I'm not saying the O line doesn't need work. Clearly it does. But it's easier to draft guards than QBs. They can also be signed in free agency more readily. Further, if we draft a QB, he doesn't have to play as a rookie. We have 6 picks after the first round, and multiple ones can be used on O line. If they are looking for a new starting QB, it is unlikely that they get a better chance than this next draft given the situation they're in and the robustness of the incoming QB class. If (and only if) they are high on one of the QBs who is available to them, I think they should take him, and I am pretty sure they will. That doesn't mean they'll be neglecting the O line.
Justin Herbert, come on people try working with with an atrocious O-line and no receivers and an injured RB. No play makers for TV e defense to even worry about. Outside of the Cardinals game Daboll didn't even use Jaylin Hyatt.
Herbert has a bad O-line, no one mentions that he has receivers, TE and running back.
No QB could have done with what the Giants have been selling. They have no contingency plans. You know how important Andrew Thomas is to this team. Just look at 49ers. Without Trent they are 0-3. Trent is to 49ers what Thomas is to the Giants. That's thy e way it is without him the QB was going to suffer as well as the RB unless you have a good Back up ready to replace your best OL. The Giants didn't.
Quote from: Giantleap56 on December 06, 2023, 06:36:50 PMJustin Herbert, come on people try working with with an atrocious O-line and no receivers and an injured RB. No play makers for TV e defense to even worry about. Outside of the Cardinals game Daboll didn't even use Jaylin Hyatt.
Herbert has a bad O-line, no one mentions that he has receivers, TE and running back.
No QB could have done with what the Giants have been selling. They have no contingency plans. You know how important Andrew Thomas is to this team. Just look at 49ers. Without Trent they are 0-3. Trent is to 49ers what Thomas is to the Giants. That's thy e way it is without him the QB was going to suffer as well as the RB unless you have a good Back up ready to replace your best OL. The Giants didn't.
Then what's the excuse for the other 58 games in which the Qb has played bad football? The other issue is that Jones was still playing badly and a Journeyman and a rookie easily outplayed him which should never happen.
Quote from: President Rick on December 06, 2023, 01:48:22 PMname any QB who could succeed behind the OL's we have fielded this season or last.
any one. past or present.
we have to fix the OL first.
I'll name one- Tommy DeVito
He had tons of time against the Patriots, the line is coming around... Bill Belichick teams are tough to score on
Hey he did enough to win (Thanks to Hodgins highlight reel play)
But point is he is winning As Al Davis would say "Just Win Baby!"
Its too bad he had to get his feet wet against the Boys, but he might win or keep it close were there a re-match.
We finally have ourselves a QB, I think. So far so good
I am in the camp that you can never have enough edge rushers. Eli may have been Super Bowl MVP but we beat the Patriots because of our NASCAR package.. Throwing a relentless attack at Brady of Strahan, Tuck Umenoyra, Kiwanuka, etc gave him little to no time to pass. It's fun to watch a high powered offense but when it's fun to watch a defense, that's football!!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 06:10:49 PMI am not ready to declare Hyatt elite, but I think he's awfully talented and has a chance to be a top flight NFL receiver. No doubt we could use more help though, whether that is true or not. An elite receiver doesn't help you score lots of points though if your QB play is terrible (see Garrett Wilson on the Jets).
Hyatt with the right Qb could be the closest thing to Tyreke Hill other than Tyreke. The true speed and quickness with the desire and toughness. I think if we get an actual Qb Hyatt could be truly special.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 07, 2023, 12:54:32 PMHyatt with the right Qb could be the closest thing to Tyreke Hill other than Tyreke. The true speed and quickness with the desire and toughness. I think if we get an actual Qb Hyatt could be truly special.
Agreed. I'm not declaring him elite, as to this point he has not actually shown the consistent high level production, but it's obvious he is very talented I'm not putting a cap on him either. I think he could potentially end up being a Devonta Smith type.