I'm curious:
Assume you're the owner and sole final decision maker for the Giants:
If Schoen decides to draft a QB in the first round of the upcoming draft, and said QB starts most or all of the year and struggles somewhat and the team finishes with a record of something like 6-11 or 5-12 (assume the D was so-so and it was mostly the offense that struggled), are you cleaning house and firing Schoen and Daboll after 2024? Or would you give them at least two seasons with the new QB, no matter what the 2024 record looked like (provided it wasn't something worse than 4-5 wins)?
It depends on HOW terrible that QB is. Like even Bryce Young deserves a 2nd season to try and show improvement. Unless he's Josh Rosen level's of inept I would say they get 2 years to develop their guy. Knowing that if this QB flops he's gone along with the GM and Coach since that was their pick.
I would say that if they manage to win 6 games, the QB play would likely have been better than what Jones was doing at the start of this year so they'd probably earn another season to figure it out.
Quote from: Gmo11 on December 06, 2023, 01:48:55 PMIt depends on HOW terrible that QB is. Like even Bryce Young deserves a 2nd season to try and show improvement. Unless he's Josh Rosen level's of inept I would say they get 2 years to develop their guy. Knowing that if this QB flops he's gone along with the GM and Coach since that was their pick.
I would say that if they manage to win 6 games, the QB play would likely have been better than what Jones was doing at the start of this year so they'd probably earn another season to figure it out.
Yes. Assume it's not a Josh Rosen level train wreck situation. Assume it's a typical struggling rookie season that you frequently see with rookie QBs (like Trevor Lawrence for example).
Tommy DeVito will start 2024 so all this is moot
Schoen and Daboll will have to figure out what to do with Jones
There will be a 2-3rd round QB riding the bench and learning
Given what Daboll has been able to do with Tossin Tommy I'd like to see what he can do with a QB with a much higher level of raw talent. As far as Jones is concerned I think his Giant fate was sealed when the Surface got tossed in his direction.
Quote from: BluesCruz on December 06, 2023, 02:18:03 PMTommy DeVito will start 2024 so all this is moot
First of all, you don't know that Tommy DeVito will be the Giants' starter next season. Nobody knows for sure who will be the Giants' starting QB next year, including Daboll and Schoen.
Secondly, this thread is a hypothetical exercise relating to coaching tenure, not a prediction of who will be QB next year.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 02:45:13 PMFirst of all, you don't know that Tommy DeVito will be the Giants' starter next season. Nobody knows for sure who will be the Giants' starting QB next year, including Daboll and Schoen.
Secondly, this thread is a hypothetical exercise relating to coaching tenure, not a prediction of who will be QB next year.
Let's add one caveat: DeVito gets traded for a Chicken Cutlet sandwich and a tackling dummy. NOW, the rest of your hypothetical exercise continues.
So, you are asking us to consider not a dumpster fire condition? 🔥
Nah! Fire everyone, including Mara!
Game over!
Peace!
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 01:43:38 PMI'm curious:
Assume you're the owner and sole final decision maker for the Giants:
If Schoen decides to draft a QB in the first round of the upcoming draft, and said QB starts most or all of the year and struggles somewhat and the team finishes with a record of something like 6-11 or 5-12 (assume the D was so-so and it was mostly the offense that struggled), are you cleaning house and firing Schoen and Daboll after 2024? Or would you give them at least two seasons with the new QB, no matter what the 2024 record looked like (provided it wasn't something worse than 4-5 wins)?
Unless the new QB starts and shows he is useless (like a Zack Wilson), I would be that they are around for another year after that. No way they fire Shoen like that or Dabil for that matter.
I can see a complete overhaul of assistant coaches and coordinators coming though. I just don't see Kafka as our OC with a rookie QB. He can't design plays to try and help Tossin Tommy, let alone a highly regarded rookie.
You just can't keep firing staff and expect to be successful. You just can't. Give these guys a chance......geez!!!
Quote from: BluesCruz on December 06, 2023, 02:18:03 PMTommy DeVito will start 2024 so all this is moot
Schoen and Daboll will have to figure out what to do with Jones
There will be a 2-3rd round QB riding the bench and learning
A)They would not draft a Qb in the 2nd round and have him sit behind an undrafted free agent,.
B) If Devito is as good as you think he is why would the organization then use a 2nd rd pick on a backup that would never see the field vs using that for the many other needs we have?
Quote from: jimc on December 06, 2023, 05:04:53 PMYou just can't keep firing staff and expect to be successful. You just can't. Give these guys a chance......geez!!!
I feel the same way Jim, but there are limits, obviously.
For the record I hope Schoen picks a new QB, and I would give him and Daboll at least two more years. If a QB is bad as a rookie and then still stinks in year two, that's usually a very bad sign. That was the case with Wilson, Jones, Darnold, etc. QBs who are good sometimes stink as rookies, but you almost always see that marked year two improvement. So I feel like if we draft someone in 2024, who struggles badly in 2024, and then we see no improvement in his second year, and the team stinks overall both years, then at that point you need to purge the whole thing and go in a new direction. Hopefully we don't see that happen with this regime. I am optimistic that we won't.
Gotta give the coaches time, they've had dumpster fire after dumpster fire at Qb. Let a new Qb settle in and give them time to grow together. I think you give them 2024 and 2025 and if we aren't in the playoffs in 2025 you reevaluate.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 06, 2023, 05:57:16 PMGotta give the coaches time, they've had dumpster fire after dumpster fire at Qb. Let a new Qb settle in and give them time to grow together. I think you give them 2024 and 2025 and if we aren't in the playoffs in 2025 you reevaluate.
Well, what if you don't draft a QB early in the 2024 draft? Then what?
I really don't think Daboll is the issue. I need to study the GM/Shoen and that whole operation more before I give a full opinion of him. I need more info on he and Daboll's relationship, and how they work together.
If you do draft a QB, I want Daboll heavily involved in that decision. Daboll will be molding the kid and you might as well fire Daboll now if you're not going to let him hand pick the QB.
But again, no one knows if the Giants will take a QB with their first pick in the draft. Maybe Schoen has some hair brained idea to bring in Kirk Cousins this offseason or some crap like that. Who knows.
Daniel Jones sounds invested and determined to be ready to go by camp. I like Daniel. I don't think you walk away from a high character individual like that cat just yet.
I'd draft a OL with the first pick, then a QB after that. I would plan to roll with Daniel for 2024. And the QB that Daboll hand picks you have ready for 2025 if 2024 is a disaster with Daniel.
No one is waiting until 2026 like some of you are suggesting.
Quote from: PackersNation on December 06, 2023, 06:23:41 PMWell, what if you don't draft a QB early in the 2024 draft? Then what?
I really don't think Daboll is the issue. I need to study the GM/Shoen and that whole operation more before I give a full opinion of him. I need more info on he and Daboll's relationship, and how they work together.
If you do draft a QB, I want Daboll heavily involved in that decision. Daboll will be molding the kid and you might as well fire Daboll now if you're not going to let him hand pick the QB.
But again, no one knows if the Giants will take a QB with their first pick in the draft. Maybe Schoen has some hair brained idea to bring in Kirk Cousins this offseason or some crap like that. Who knows.
Daniel Jones sounds invested and determined to be ready to go by camp. I like Daniel. I don't think you walk away from a high character individual like that cat just yet.
I'd draft a OL with the first pick, then a QB after that. I would plan to roll with Daniel for 2024. And the QB that Daboll hand picks you have ready for 2025 if 2024 is a disaster with Daniel.
No one is waiting until 2026 like some of you are suggesting.
I appreciate your thoughts. A few comments:
(1) They pretty much have to stick with Jones in 2024, whether they want to or not. He has a $47mm 2024 cap hit, and he is coming off an ACL. Plus he was awful this year before he got hurt. Nobody is taking him off our hands. So he'll be a Giant in 2024 no matter what. Obviously that doesn't mean they have to play him, but he'll for sure be on the team.
(2) If the objective is to have a QB ready for the 2025 season, I don't see why the Giants would wait until the second round to take one. QB is as premium a position as it gets, and you're not always in a position where you have a real chance to draft a franchise one. Since it is now abundantly clear Jones is not the long term answer, if they like one of the options available to them in the first round, I highly doubt they pass on that. With that said, if they are not sold on any of the options available to them, then I would agree that they'll pass in the first round and draft another position. But I don't think they're going to wait around if there is a QB there that they are high on.
(3) Daniel Jones definitely has high character. That doesn't mean he's the long term answer at QB though. He will be going into year six, and he has only had one year in the NFL without significant injuries, including two serious neck injuries and an ACL tear (among other things). Moreover, he has not played well. He has had more than enough opportunity to prove his worth, and it hasn't happened. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with his character, but high character alone isn't enough to be a winning QB.
(4) Schoen and Daboll are highly collaborative. Daboll will definitely be heavily involved in the decision process, and there will be a consensus between him and the GM for them to pull the trigger. This is a stated requirement by ownership.
If it's my call (in the OP scenario), Schoen stays and Daboll would be on the hot seat. I'd need to have no doubts about his relationship with the rookie QB. If I had any doubt about the HC/QB compatibility I'd want a new HC in there.
My priority in this situation is to make sure the QB has everything he needs to turn the corner in year 2.
I simply don't think you can hire a head coach one year and draft a QB another year and have them out of sync so if you fire a HC, the next HC inherits an unproven player. If they allow Schoen/Dabs to draft a rookie QB and he struggles his first year, then give Schoen/Dabs another year to see if they can develop him. If after 2 years he still looks horrible, then I think you can get rid of Schoen/Dabs.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 06:48:05 PMI appreciate your thoughts. A few comments:
(1) They pretty much have to stick with Jones in 2024, whether they want to or not. He has a $47mm 2024 cap hit, and he is coming off an ACL. Plus he was awful this year before he got hurt. Nobody is taking him off our hands. So he'll be a Giant in 2024 no matter what. Obviously that doesn't mean they have to play him, but he'll for sure be on the team.
(2) If the objective is to have a QB ready for the 2025 season, I don't see why the Giants would wait until the second round to take one. QB is as premium a position as it gets, and you're not always in a position where you have a real chance to draft a franchise one. Since it is now abundantly clear Jones is not the long term answer, if they like one of the options available to them in the first round, I highly doubt they pass on that. With that said, if they are not sold on any of the options available to them, then I would agree that they'll pass in the first round and draft another position. But I don't think they're going to wait around if there is a QB there that they are high on.
(3) Daniel Jones definitely has high character. That doesn't mean he's the long term answer at QB though. He will be going into year six, and he has only had one year in the NFL without significant injuries, including two serious neck injuries and an ACL tear (among other things). Moreover, he has not played well. He has had more than enough opportunity to prove his worth, and it hasn't happened. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with his character, but high character alone isn't enough to be a winning QB.
(4) Schoen and Daboll are highly collaborative. Daboll will definitely be heavily involved in the decision process, and there will be a consensus between him and the GM for them to pull the trigger. This is a stated requirement by ownership.
Ok, so the variable we don't know is if Daniel will have a quality 2024 season. He needs a good OL, which is why I want them to draft OL early. Who says a 2nd round QB can't be developed? And who says Daniel is going to suck or get injured in 2024? If you have given up on him, fine. I don't believe Daboll and Schoen have. If Daniel is good in year 6, you have your QB for the next 5 or 6 years, and that cat you wanna spend a high first round pick on never plays for the Giants.
Throwing a QB in the fire year one can ruin him. Not everyone is CJ Stroud. More are Pat Mahomes, Jordan Love, & Aaron Rodgers. Draft & develop, not draft, ruin and then fire everyone in 2 years. Having to start completely over in 2026.
Quote from: PackersNation on December 06, 2023, 07:09:01 PMOk, so the variable we don't know is if Daniel will have a quality 2024 season. He needs a good OL, which is why I want them to draft OL early. Who says a 2nd round QB can't be developed? And who says Daniel is going to suck or get injured in 2024? If you have given up on him, fine. I don't believe Daboll and Schoen have. If Daniel is good in year 6, you have your QB for the next 5 or 6 years, and that cat you wanna spend a high first round pick on never plays for the Giants.
Throwing a QB in the fire year one can ruin him. Not everyone is CJ Stroud. More are Pat Mahomes, Jordan Love, & Aaron Rodgers. Draft & develop, not draft, ruin and then fire everyone in 2 years. Having to start completely over in 2026.
I never said I would personally want them to start the rookie QB in year one. The OP was a pure hypothetical scenario. In terms of what I myself want, all I said don't wait until the second round to draft a QB if there is one they are high on in the first round.
Quote from: PackersNation on December 06, 2023, 06:23:41 PMWell, what if you don't draft a QB early in the 2024 draft? Then what?
I really don't think Daboll is the issue. I need to study the GM/Shoen and that whole operation more before I give a full opinion of him. I need more info on he and Daboll's relationship, and how they work together.
If you do draft a QB, I want Daboll heavily involved in that decision. Daboll will be molding the kid and you might as well fire Daboll now if you're not going to let him hand pick the QB.
But again, no one knows if the Giants will take a QB with their first pick in the draft. Maybe Schoen has some hair brained idea to bring in Kirk Cousins this offseason or some crap like that. Who knows.
Daniel Jones sounds invested and determined to be ready to go by camp. I like Daniel. I don't think you walk away from a high character individual like that cat just yet.
I'd draft a OL with the first pick, then a QB after that. I would plan to roll with Daniel for 2024. And the QB that Daboll hand picks you have ready for 2025 if 2024 is a disaster with Daniel.
No one is waiting until 2026 like some of you are suggesting.
5 years of horrible qb play but don't give up on him because he is a good guy? There are around 3,000 players at the start of camp, if the Giants held onto "good guys" that were horrible at their positions then we'd be worse off than we are now. Jones has been horrible, all the beat teams in the league stay they way because they get rid of mistakes or horrible players quickly and don't double down.
Lastly we've spent more draft capital than any other team on the oline. They've got to be given a chance to develop instead of just throwing more stuff at the wall and see if it sticks.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 07:15:06 PMI never said I would personally want them to start the rookie QB in year one. The OP was a pure hypothetical scenario. In terms of what I myself want, all I said don't wait until the second round to draft a QB if there is one they are high on in the first round.
Every GM with high credibility will tell you that the worst time to draft a QB in the first is when you need one. The Giants don't have the luxury to draft a QB in the first. The Giants are not a QB away from being good. Gotta build that OL to an elite level first.
The more I think about it, the more I know the Giants will not take a QB in the first. And they shouldn't.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 06, 2023, 08:59:30 PM5 years of horrible qb play but don't give up on him because he is a good guy?
Lastly we've spent more draft capital than any other team on the oline. They've got to be given a chance to develop instead of just throwing more stuff at the wall and see
5 years of horrible qb play but don't give up on him because he is a good guy? There are around 3,000 players at the start of camp, if the Giants held onto "good guys" that were horrible at their positions then we'd be worse off than we are now. Jones has been horrible, all the beat teams in the league stay they way because they get rid of mistakes or horrible players quickly and don't double down.
I didn't say the only thing Daniel has going for him is being a high a quality individual. I can tell some of you think he has no talent, nor the ability to be a quality starter in this league. Great, that is your opinion. I do not believe it's the head coaches and GM's opinion. They matter, you and I don't in this equation. I'd go with them over a disgruntled fan on the internet, sorry.
And if Daniel doesn't get the job done in 2024, you have a QB you drafted high 2nd round, that has a year of development under his belt. We also don't know who Daboll and Schoen are high on that is coming out this draft. It may be a cat that slips to pick 36 or whatever slot the Giants end up with.
You have dreams of drafting some future hall of famer in the Top 10 of the first round. Basically not willing to settle for anything else. Good luck with that.
To be against building the lines further first and drafting a QB high in 2nd round is ridiculous.
Sorry, but fanboys dreaming are those that think all the future Hall of Fame QBs are gone after pick 15 of the first round. I have faith in Daboll's ability to develop a QB.
Sometimes an unbiased view from outside is a more clear view than the view of a fan base that is sick of not having the guy at QB.
Quote from: PackersNation on December 06, 2023, 09:06:29 PMEvery GM with high credibility will tell you that the worst time to draft a QB in the first is when you need one. The Giants don't have the luxury to draft a QB in the first. The Giants are not a QB away from being good. Gotta build that OL to an elite level first.
The more I think about it, the more I know the Giants will not take a QB in the first. And they shouldn't.
You just said earlier in this thread that you need to study Schoen more before you have an opinion of him, but now you're saying you know exactly what he is or is not going to do in the draft? Give me a break.
Obviously you're more than entitled to have your own opinion of what any team should or should not do in the draft or with any player, and you may or may not end up being right, but you do not know what the Giants are going to do in the first round or any round of the draft.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 09:49:20 PMYou just said earlier in this thread that you need to study Schoen more before you have an opinion of him, but now you're saying you know exactly what he is or is not going to do in the draft? Give me a break.
Obviously you're more than entitled to have your own opinion of what any team should or should not do in the draft or with any player, and you may or may not end up being right, but you do not know what the Giants are going to do in the first round or any round of the draft.
Yes, I needed more info on Schoen and I got it through further investigation, and in speaking to a friend of mine who knew him while he was a scout with the Dolphins. Still knows him, but not near the contact he used to have.
No, I don't "know" anything the Giants will do with certainty, but the more I look at it, the more I BELIEVE they will not draft a QB high in the first round.
I didn't even realize I used the word know.
Before firing Schoen he should fire himself. Need a president of football ops. Mara can no longer have any say
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 06, 2023, 05:55:51 PMI feel the same way Jim, but there are limits, obviously.
For the record I hope Schoen picks a new QB, and I would give him and Daboll at least two more years. If a QB is bad as a rookie and then still stinks in year two, that's usually a very bad sign. That was the case with Wilson, Jones, Darnold, etc. QBs who are good sometimes stink as rookies, but you almost always see that marked year two improvement. So I feel like if we draft someone in 2024, who struggles badly in 2024, and then we see no improvement in his second year, and the team stinks overall both years, then at that point you need to purge the whole thing and go in a new direction. Hopefully we don't see that happen with this regime. I am optimistic that we won't.
I don't think we pick a QB. We have seen what a poor offensive line yields. You have to look no further than Eli. Won 2 super bowls with an ok o line, but couldn't do much while in his prime because of a poor o line. I believe a good o line will make any QB better. Yes, even DJ.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on December 06, 2023, 06:53:46 PMMy priority in this situation is to make sure the QB has everything he needs to turn the corner in year 2.
I believe it has been their priority. They just swung and missed with Evans which resulted in the mess they had this year with the o line.
So, just so I am clear:
After having observed him play a total of just 20 games in the NFL, we are now fully convinced Evan Neal is definitely a bust and need to draft his replacement with a high first round pick, which will be our third top 10 offensive tackle in four years, but we still don't know what Daniel Jones is after 60 games and should therefore definitely not pick a QB in the first round.
Correct?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 07, 2023, 08:04:46 AMSo, just so I am clear:
After having observed him play a total of just 20 games in the NFL, we are fully convinced Evan Neal is definitely a bust and need to draft his replacement with a high first round pick, which will be our third top 10 offensive tackle in four years, but we still don't know what Daniel Jones is after 60 games and should therefore definitely not pick a QB in the first round.
Correct?
Bingo
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 07, 2023, 08:04:46 AMSo, just so I am clear:
After having observed him play a total of just 20 games in the NFL, we are now fully convinced Evan Neal is definitely a bust and need to draft his replacement with a high first round pick, which will be our third top 10 offensive tackle in four years, but we still don't know what Daniel Jones is after 60 games and should therefore definitely not pick a QB in the first round.
Correct?
:hmm: :hmm: :hmm:
Quote from: PackersNation on December 06, 2023, 09:27:37 PMI didn't say the only thing Daniel has going for him is being a high a quality individual. I can tell some of you think he has no talent, nor the ability to be a quality starter in this league. Great, that is your opinion. I do not believe it's the head coaches and GM's opinion. They matter, you and I don't in this equation. I'd go with them over a disgruntled fan on the internet, sorry.
And if Daniel doesn't get the job done in 2024, you have a QB you drafted high 2nd round, that has a year of development under his belt. We also don't know who Daboll and Schoen are high on that is coming out this draft. It may be a cat that slips to pick 36 or whatever slot the Giants end up with.
You have dreams of drafting some future hall of famer in the Top 10 of the first round. Basically not willing to settle for anything else. Good luck with that.
To be against building the lines further first and drafting a QB high in 2nd round is ridiculous.
Sorry, but fanboys dreaming are those that think all the future Hall of Fame QBs are gone after pick 15 of the first round. I have faith in Daboll's ability to develop a QB.
Sometimes an unbiased view from outside is a more clear view than the view of a fan base that is sick of not having the guy at QB.
I would love for you to explain what Jones has or what you've seen in him that would give you ANY reason to believe 2024 would be any different than the past 5 years.... I'll wait.
So your option is draft a 2nd rd pick and hope that Jones maybe shows something in year 6 lol? C'mon man that's not realistic, there Is only 1 Qb in the league playing at a high level that was picked in the 2nd rd and that's Jalen Hurts. So picking in the 2nd rd and praying seems no different than picking in the top 10 and praying. At least the top 10 gives us a higher probability.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 07, 2023, 08:04:46 AMSo, just so I am clear:
After having observed him play a total of just 20 games in the NFL, we are now fully convinced Evan Neal is definitely a bust and need to draft his replacement with a high first round pick, which will be our third top 10 offensive tackle in four years, but we still don't know what Daniel Jones is after 60 games and should therefore definitely not pick a QB in the first round.
Correct?
Has he even played 20 yet, it may be less than that lol. I've been perplexed at that for awhile, the same contingent left Thibs for dead as well earlier this season.
We drafted a LG, C, RG, and RT in the last year and a half with high draft picks... but let's not develop them or give them time and just keep drafting more olinemen because they aren't elite absolutely immediately.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 07, 2023, 01:15:59 PMWe drafted a LG, C, RG, and RT in the last year and a half with high draft picks... but let's not develop them or give them time and just keep drafting more olinemen because they aren't elite absolutely immediately.
The frustrating part is other teams draft an Ol in a non-1st round and they end up being quality starters in first year. Think of Michael Onwenu the G for the Pats, Trey Smith, G for the Chiefs, Landon Dickerson, G for the Eagles. On and on.
We struggle to get good play period aside from Thomas.
Quote from: Philosophers on December 07, 2023, 02:42:02 PMThe frustrating part is other teams draft an Ol in a non-1st round and they end up being quality starters in first year. Think of Michael Onwenu the G for the Pats, Trey Smith, G for the Chiefs, Landon Dickerson, G for the Eagles. On and on.
We struggle to get good play period aside from Thomas.
Yes but that is 95% coaching in my opinion, Buffalo had the same issue when our oline coach was with them. So much so that the HC McDermott took over and switched the entire scheme they were using because he thought Johnson wasn't using players strengths and simply only coaching what he was comfortable with.
When JMS is a monster for several years in college, and Neal is a universal #1 OT and at the top of his game in the SEC for 3 years, and everyone is underperforming its a coaching, training, health issue. We know these guys have hours and hours of great tape, at some point we've got to change the training/medical staff, oline coach, and then grab a Qb that processes the field quickly and I think you'll see significant change in the development of the entire line.