Are they still contender caliber? They have had a pretty mediocre (for them) season. Will they turn it on during the playoffs, or has their time passed?
As long as Mahomes has a breath in his lungs they will remain a contender. However, this will be the first time they likely have to go on the road on their way to the super bowl which is a new wrinkle of adversity they're gonna have to deal with. I don't know if the team as a whole is good enough to win a Super Bowl this year, especially with the Dolphins over there standing in their way, but I don't think they're far off. You can expect their first round pick to be a WR next year and maybe even their 2nd round pick. If they can get just reasonable play from that position next year they'll be right back into that 12-13 win range again.
Mahomes (and some of his teammates) certainly are showing a lack of class. Imagine how entitled one must feel to complain about a blatant penalty being called (Toney was clearly and very offside).
https://x.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1734054945010126883?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2023, 11:15:01 AMMahomes (and some of his teammates) certainly are showing a lack of class. Imagine how entitled one must feel to complain about a blatant penalty being called (Toney was clearly and very offside).
https://x.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1734054945010126883?s=20
Not a good look. But in Mahomes' meager defense: Kadarius Toney will do that to you.
Their receiving corps outside of Kelce is letting the team down. Drops, fumbles, penalties are killing the team. It feels like they have dropped every long pass thrown by Mahomes. Just can't hang on to anything. As Gisele Bundchen once said, "You [have] to catch the ball when you're supposed to catch the ball". Mahomes can't throw it and catch it.
Note that Toney was directly responsible for two losses this season.
With this kind of production, it will be almost impossible to get back to the SB much less win it.
Mahomes was 100% wrong in his tirade and not wanting the flag to be thrown.
However... I understand his frustration. Toney being offsides did not offer his team an advantage whatsoever. The non-call on the blatant and obvious DPI last week versus GB was NOT called and affected the game. Mahomes' point was how can you hold your flag in one instance but not the other. The DPI was clearly more egregious.
Yes, different crews and rules are rules. But if they can't call them consistently, it's a problem.
Quote from: Uni on December 11, 2023, 11:19:27 AMTheir receiving corps outside of Kelce is letting the team down. Drops, fumbles, penalties are killing the team. It feels like they have dropped every long pass thrown by Mahomes. Just can't hang on to anything. As Gisele Bundchen once said, "You [have] to catch the ball when you're supposed to catch the ball". Mahomes can't throw it and catch it.
Note that Toney was directly responsible for two losses this season.
With this kind of production, it will be almost impossible to get back to the SB much less win it.
Daniel Jones can relate ;)
Quote from: T200 on December 11, 2023, 11:20:29 AMMahomes was 100% wrong in his tirade and not wanting the flag to be thrown.
However... I understand his frustration. Toney being offsides did not offer his team an advantage whatsoever. The non-call on the blatant and obvious DPI last week versus GB was NOT called and affected the game. Mahomes' point was how can you hold your flag in one instance but not the other. The DPI was clearly more egregious.
Yes, different crews and rules are rules. But if they can't call them consistently, it's a problem.
In fairness, a DPI is a judgment call. Lining up offsides is a clear factual penalty and a stupid one (for the team getting it) at that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2023, 11:22:41 AMDaniel Jones can relate ;)
I knew someone would say that :P
I actually wrote something in anticipation, but I didn't want to be the one to bring DJ into it.
I know (assume) you're just joking, but to be clear: Jones does not make the throws for the receivers to drop. There is ZERO connection between Mahomes and Jones. It's laughable to think that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2023, 11:24:06 AMIn fairness, a DPI is a judgment call. Lining up offsides is a clear factual penalty and a stupid one (for the team getting it) at that.
If you saw the play last week, that was far from a judgment call.
Answering the question, yes the Chiefs talent level on O has degraded significantly and they rely too heavily on Mahomes and Kelce.
On the Toney offside play (he was, it should be called more often but refs need to be consistent with it) I want to point out my pet peeve this season. The RT was also clearly illegally aligned, too far off the LoS & outside the body frame of the C. The LT might be as well though he is partially obscured by the TE in the angles I have seen.
This is now a common sight on passing snaps across many teams. It is cheating to gain an advantage vs. speedy edge defenders. It needs to be called routinely to stop it happening. Penalties are not only for defenders! The NFL needs to get its act together on this.
Quote from: londonblue on December 11, 2023, 11:28:09 AMAnswering the question, yes the Chiefs talent level on O has degraded significantly and they rely too heavily on Mahomes and Kelce.
On the Toney offside play (he was, it should be called more often but refs need to be consistent with it) I want to point out my pet peeve this season. The RT was also clearly illegally aligned, too far off the LoS & outside the body frame of the C. The LT might be as well though he is partially obscured by the TE in the angles I have seen.
This is now a common sight on passing snaps across many teams. It is cheating to gain an advantage vs. speedy edge defenders. It needs to be called routinely to stop it happening. Penalties are not only for defenders! The NFL needs to get its act together on this.
With the Eagles the officials constantly allow their OTs to false start
Quote from: T200 on December 11, 2023, 11:26:31 AMIf you saw the play last week, that was far from a judgment call.
I have seen the play. The question for me is how they called the rest of the game. Teams know some officials call games tighter than others.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2023, 11:30:21 AMI have seen the play. The question for me is how they called the rest of the game. Teams know some officials call games tighter than others.
And that's what I believe Mahomes' issue is as well.
Quote from: T200 on December 11, 2023, 11:20:29 AMYes, different crews and rules are rules. But if they can't call them consistently, it's a problem.
I think Mahomes and Reid have been thinking they have had bad calls go against them all season. This was a pushback. Reid especially surprised me because he has to know he's going to get fined for what he said, someway or somehow. That said, Kadarius Toney is like Kryptonite. He's often injured and he kills them in critical situations when he is playing. He's a jinx.
They are better on defense but lack the skill players especially at receiver. That being said because of Mahomes talent they will be a very tough out in the playoffs. If only the Giants were in such decline.
Rich: The only way to answer the question in the title, IMO, is to ask the Collinsworth observations.
WHY are receivers dropping balls? They're the same ones who didn't drop balls for many years. Getting old?
WHY all the costly penalties, especially by the OL? It's not the same group but it's close to last year.
My own guess... nothing lasts forever in the NFL, and maybe their time is up. Even Brady's time expired.
Also, Chiefs & Eagles are IMO the most STUDIED teams, so that could be at least part of the answer.
Bob
PS. This may not be the thread to raise this but, even though I picked Cowboys for the Super Bowl this year back in April/May/June, I've come to believe they're somehow stealing the opponents' defensive calls during home games. Why? Because their successful "guess rate" is too high to be just random. They virtually always call exactly the best play to run against the defense, and unless Dak has suddenly become a savant, there is no other explanation.
Quote from: katkavage on December 11, 2023, 11:50:18 AMThey are better on defense but lack the skill players especially at receiver. That being said because of Mahomes talent they will be a very tough out in the playoffs. If only the Giants were in such decline.
We're 10 years in... :banghead: :banghead:
Quote from: Bob In PA on December 11, 2023, 11:54:18 AMRich: The only way to answer the question in the title, IMO, is to ask the Collinsworth observations.
WHY are receivers dropping balls? They're the same ones who didn't drop balls for many years. Getting old?
WHY all the costly penalties, especially by the OL? It's not the same group but it's close to last year.
My own guess... nothing lasts forever in the NFL, and maybe their time is up. Even Brady's time expired.
Also, Chiefs & Eagles are IMO the most STUDIED teams, so that could be at least part of the answer.
Bob
PS. This may not be the thread to raise this but, even though I picked Cowboys for the Super Bowl this year back in April/May/June, I've come to believe they're somehow stealing the opponents' defensive calls during home games. Why? Because their successful "guess rate" is too high to be just random. They virtually always call exactly the best play to run against the defense, and unless Dak has suddenly become a savant, there is no other explanation.
Wow, Bob. Great insight man. Seriously. :ok:
Quote from: T200 on December 11, 2023, 11:20:29 AMMahomes was 100% wrong in his tirade and not wanting the flag to be thrown.
However... I understand his frustration. Toney being offsides did not offer his team an advantage whatsoever. The non-call on the blatant and obvious DPI last week versus GB was NOT called and affected the game. Mahomes' point was how can you hold your flag in one instance but not the other. The DPI was clearly more egregious.
Yes, different crews and rules are rules. But if they can't call them consistently, it's a problem.
Tim: IMO the "illegal motion" penalty is also too randomly called. Once in a while, a ref calls a motion man for moving forward at the snap, but (1) it happens on almost every play these days and (2) there is no reason NOT to enforce that rule... it's very simple and straightforward. And I'll never forget the Super Bowl we lost to the Ravens. The refs picked that moment to call a holding penalty on a defensive interior lineman (which I seem to remember hadn't been called all year). It negated a Giants pick-six or (if my memory has failed me) certaintly an INT at a time when the game was still close (I think the TD would have tied the score) and that call IMO changed the whole complexion of the rest of the game. Bob
Part of me wonders, with all his undeniable talent and leadership, just how "catchable" a ball he throws. I think that matters when you have borderline talent at the WR position- and especially talent that seems to "churn", ie, it seems like he's always working with new WRs ever since Tyreek left. Outside of Kelce he has no go-to guy, although Rashee Rice may develop into more of that role.
But to answer the question- they'll be fine come playoff time. Mahomes is just that good they will undoubtedly be in the mix to return to the Super Bowl.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 11, 2023, 11:15:01 AMMahomes (and some of his teammates) certainly are showing a lack of class. Imagine how entitled one must feel to complain about a blatant penalty being called (Toney was clearly and very offside).
Rich,
I fully agree, but I would just point out that we have seen this behavior from other superstar athletes as well. Brady did this all the time (bitched about officiating and berated refs directly), and so did Michael Jordan. I'm not defending it. I don't like it either. But it's not totally unfamiliar.
Mahomes took it out on the officials instead of his teammates.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 11, 2023, 12:17:47 PMRich,
I fully agree, but I would just point out that we have seen this behavior from other superstar athletes as well. Brady did this all the time (bitched about officiating and berated refs directly), and so did Michael Jordan. I'm not defending it. I don't like it either. But it's not totally unfamiliar.
To answer the OP, I definitely think they're having an off year this year. They have been off for sure. Mahomes is struggling significantly compared to his norms, and so is the team broadly.
With that said, no, I do not think their time has passed. Nor would I completely count them out in the postseason this year. The AFC is a bit up in the air. Yes, the Ravens and Dolphins look great, but neither has proven anything in postseason play in the recent past nor have they beaten elite teams this year.
But no question the Chiefs have not been their normal selves this year, and Mahomes' having an off year is a key part of that.
Quote from: Ed Vette on December 11, 2023, 11:58:31 AMWow, Bob. Great insight man. Seriously. :ok:
Ed: Yeah, wild guesses are my specialty. lol
Really, how many calls have the Chiefs gotten in the past few years that have helped them win games? Too many to count on fingers and toes. AND, this call wasn't even questionable. Instead of going into the huddle and telling Toney to pull his head out, he takes it out on the officials.
Quote from: LennG on December 11, 2023, 01:12:44 PMReally, how many calls have the Chiefs gotten in the past few years that have helped them win games? Too many to count on fingers and toes. AND, this call wasn't even questionable. Instead of going into the huddle and telling Toney to pull his head out, he takes it out on the officials.
I think that's exactly WHY he lost his mind. He can't go and strangle Toney for being such a moron, as much as he might want to, because then he's labeled a bad teammate. (Unless you're Tom Brady in which case it's fine he's just "competeing" for some reason) So he sees his WR do the dumbest thing in the world and can't control his frustration but since he can't direct it at Toney he does the next best thing and directs it at the referee.
And it's not like this is the first time Toney has done something monumentally stupid. He's single handedly cost them at least 2 games. They'd be the #1 seed in the conference if he simply wasn't on the team. So I kinda get being THAT frustrated since this dude just doesn't seem to learn. Not saying it's right, but I understand it.
Waller on IR > Toney on the field
New angle of the lineup shows it wasn't even close.
The other WR outside of Toney should have said something to him also. He can plainly see Toney is at least 1 foot or more over the LOS.
I think the Chiefs are contenders. Yes their offense is having a down year. But this is the best defense the Chiefs have had during the Mahomes era. It's amazing that none of the WR group has been able to step up with Reid, Mahomes and Kelce doing everything they do.
The AFC in general has taken a bit if step backward and is more like a game of QB survivor:
Rodgers
Jones
Allen
Tua
Pickett - should be back this season
Burrow
Watson
Richardson
Stroud
Lawrence
Tannehill
Mahomes
Herbert
Garoppolo
Wilson
I think with Watson, the Browns might be the best team, but I dont see it without him.
If Buffalo can get going and get in to the playoffs they are probably my pick to win the AFC. If not, it will be the Ravens. If the Dolphins eventually beat a team with a winning record, they'll be on my list as well.
Quote from: LennG on December 11, 2023, 01:51:52 PMNew angle of the lineup shows it wasn't even close.
Lenn: I guess they should have him fitted for glasses. lol True, it was not even close.
I believe a lot of the fuss from Mahomes/Reid is related to the fact that refs sometimes will inform a player if he's lined up off-sides, especially if the player asks the ref to do so (obviously).
But that mostly relates to players who are spread out wide (i.e., near the sideline officials).
"Knucklehead Smith" (of the Andy Devine Show) had six or seven other players to reference in locating the LOS.
IMO he was reviewing the upcoming play in his head rather than paying attention to the positioning of his feet.
Bob
PS. Heard the Chiefs have asked him to switch his jersey number to zero. lol
https://x.com/ProFootballTalk/status/1734287297640587346?s=20
Toney did another really awful thing on this play that once his coaches review the tape may lead to him being cut/inactive. While the play was still live and the ball went to Kelce instead of Toney there is another camera angle showing Toney flipping out in disgust that the ball wasn't sent his way and about to give up until suddenly Kelce pitches him the ball for the TD that was called back. They showed the video this morning on the NFL network.
Quote from: LennG on December 11, 2023, 01:51:52 PMNew angle of the lineup shows it wasn't even close.
He's offsides by a full stride. Ridiculous that there was even a shred of controversy involved with this. The idea that the refs should swallow the whistle with something this flagrant is preposterous. Does Mahomes want them to do the same thing if blatant encroachment was committed by a defender?
I also don't buy the excuse that it's somehow the ref's responsibility to let the player committing the infraction know that he's committing the infraction before the play. There is no requirement of that. Bottom line it's on Toney to line up onsides.
Even if his ego is too big to do it publicly, Mahomes should apologize to the official(s) he berated. He was way out of line. He also criticized them very directly in the press conference. Doesn't the league fine players for that?
No! Of course, in the NFL, everything is relative and nothing is certain. Still, for any team we may consider to be an ongoing contender to somehow signal its decline is rare and unlikely except for those who are more comfortable with retrograde thinking. Wouldn't you say?
Cheers!
As for the Toney focus, as I'm sure you know, there is no one who is more pleased, more satisfied than I that that HorsesAss is no longer wearing blue.
Cheers!
https://x.com/AndrewBrandt/status/1734265140508295579?s=20
I was rooting for the Bills but shut the game off before it ended to watch Giants reruns. lol
Quote from: LennG on December 11, 2023, 01:51:52 PMNew angle of the lineup shows it wasn't even close.
https://x.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1734286416664772617?s=20
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 11, 2023, 02:32:25 PMHe's offsides by a full stride. Ridiculous that there was even a shred of controversy involved with this. The idea that the refs should swallow the whistle with something this flagrant is preposterous. Does Mahomes want them to do the same thing if blatant encroachment was committed by a defender?
I also don't buy the excuse that it's somehow the ref's responsibility to let the player committing the infraction know that he's committing the infraction before the play. There is no requirement of that. Bottom line it's on Toney to line up onsides.
Even if his ego is too big to do it publicly, Mahomes should apologize to the official(s) he berated. He was way out of line. He also criticized them very directly in the press conference. Doesn't the league fine players for that?
One thing I heard talked about today is how officials overlook similar things regularly, like the OTs being lined up further off the line than rules allow. It's a bit of whatacoutis, but the officiating should be consistent.
I think it's a penalty and if Toney has asked the official prior to the snap it wouldn't have happened.
Are the Chiefs in decline or are the refs so blind that not even LASIK surgery can spare them from making (seemingly) obvious calls on the field? There may be more splinters to this conversation but I'll keep my two pennies to these.
The first (i.e. the Chiefs) is a subject a lot of folks offered some good points but I'm shocked the obvious flew over everyone's head that the point hadn't even been whispered, much less mentioned. The Chiefs are the reigning Super Bowl Champions who won the whole enchilada by the skin of their teeth out here in the Valley of the Sun early in this calendar year. They, along with the Iggles, have had the least amount of off-season to prepare, have had their respective staff plucked from by the rest of the league, players come and players go and you logically conclude every team is coming at you harder because you're the standard. In spite all of that, they remain in the running for a playoff spot and likely will get to the post-season because they are champions who know what needs to be done. But it isn't the same as last year for KC no more than it isn't the same for Philly. Note that both teams lost to playoff-bound opponents yesterday who have had to take a back seat to those two teams. But let's stick to KC. The Bills had this game circled on their calendar and played with purpose. Regardless of the drama of Mahomes' reaction to the offsides penalty, the Bills won the game fair and square. In the heat of the playoff chase, Mahomes and company will have no choice but to move on and get ready to win at New England next weekend.
As for the referees in general, you see it in almost every sport. In football, however, there's 17 games per season per team and one bad call could potentially have a far greater impact than if we were talking baseball, hockey or basketball. We've discussed this all season and it's not limited to the NFL as it has been just as egregious in the Australian Football League (AFL) I follow where one bad call ended up costing a team a playoff berth last season. It can be difficult for officiating teams to all call a game exactly the same; however, if you are going to call a game a certain way, at least be consistent in the manner with which you call the game THROUGHOUT the game! I think most players and fans can live with that.
Finally, competitors, in the heat of battle, sometimes say things they later will regret. If Mahomes doesn't recant his words, which hit the network audio, he's going to lose credibility as a face of the NFL. It would be in his best interest to ask for pardon on his words, which were spoken in the heat of the moment, and later on he came to the realization that was a mistake he made, he owns it and apologizes to the refs and fans and moves on. As someone who has played competitive sports, I've had my share of moments like his and, after cooling off, realize it has nothing to do with trying to be right. It's all about sportsmanship and playing and acting with class on the field. You represent more than just yourself and you damage your team when you make an a$$ out of yourself. Let's all hope he does the right thing because he is a positive image in the NFL and, despite his silly insurance commercials, has a lot to offer in being a good example for young football players.
Peace!
One thing people should bear in mind with the Chiefs before declaring them finished for the season or even going as far as to suggest the whole Mahomes/Reid era is over: their final four games of this season are:
At New England
Vegas
Cincy
At Chargers
There is actually a not unrealistic chance they win all of those games and finish 12-5 with as high as the two seed in the AFC. I'm not saying that WILL happen - just that it's not wildly unrealistic. Which of those teams does anyone feel confident will beat them? Personally I don't about any of them.
If the Chiefs go into the playoffs as a 12-5 team having just won four games in a row, people will view them very differently than they do right now.
Again I'm not predicting they will definitely run the table. More just that the situation with them is pretty fluid still.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 11, 2023, 04:19:08 PMOne thing I heard talked about today is how officials overlook similar things regularly, like the OTs being lined up further off the line than rules allow. It's a bit of whatacoutis, but the officiating should be consistent.
I think it's a penalty and if Toney has asked the official prior to the snap it wouldn't have happened.
I think we all agree that the officiating should be consistent. As much flak as Mahomes is getting, I think his beef is getting overlooked, which is the inconsistent enforcement of the rules. He even referenced the non-call last week.
However, there was a game the Giants played against either Dallas or Washington when their receiver asked the side judge if he was lined up and the official approved but when the ball was snapped, he threw his flag for that same receiver behind lined up in the neutral zone.
I am.not sure if there are any super teams this year
But with the chiefs
Mahomes and reid and no super teams i can see them getting into the playoffs year after year
But maybe the chiefs do miss eric Biemiemy
Not for his play calling but maybe he was the bad cop to andy reid good cop
Its seem the players have been playing more sloppy since he left for washington
There are no super teams but the NFC has a clear edge. Any of the top 3 NFC teams (Eagles, CowBoys, Niners) would beat any AFC team in the SB. So the NFC Championship will be the game of the year.
Just finished watching a segment on ESPN regarding Toney and the penalty. They showed 3 or 4 more instances aside from the last one where Toney was lined up in the neutral zone. Not one warning or flag thrown. Nor does Toney ever check with the official to see if he's lined up. This isn't about Toney or whether it was a penalty or not. Lining up in the neutral zone is a penalty. No argument there.
Why is the officiating so inconsistent?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 11, 2023, 01:55:10 PMI think the Chiefs are contenders. Yes their offense is having a down year. But this is the best defense the Chiefs have had during the Mahomes era. It's amazing that none of the WR group has been able to step up with Reid, Mahomes and Kelce doing everything they do.
The AFC in general has taken a bit if step backward and is more like a game of QB survivor:
Rodgers
Jones
Allen
Tua
Pickett - should be back this season
Burrow
Watson
Richardson
Stroud
Lawrence
Tannehill
Mahomes
Herbert
Garoppolo
Wilson
I think with Watson, the Browns might be the best team, but I dont see it without him.
If Buffalo can get going and get in to the playoffs they are probably my pick to win the AFC. If not, it will be the Ravens. If the Dolphins eventually beat a team with a winning record, they'll be on my list as well.
Herbert now out for the year.
I think Reid will be able to find a couple of WRs this offseason that can catch and line up onsides.
I see a couple of FAs from teams with bad QB situations that might come relatively cheap on a short deal. A year with Mahomes could make the right guy a lot of money the next year.