Big Blue Huddle

Why are we trying to win meaningless games so badly?

This is the perfect time to test our bench strength

The Giants decisions are often baffling

On the other hand beating Philly would soothe old wounds
especially if it puts them on the road for the playoffs

Agree

None of the above.  Tyrod is greatly respected by his teammates.  I have read that some were not happy that he didn't start when he was healthy and ready to play.  After coming off the bench and providing a spark and being clearly more effective than Tommy D, Daboll would risk losing the locker room if he didn't give the job back to Taylor. 

None of the above. Taylor is clearly better. The Giants have seen enough of Devito this year. The next two games will not change their opinion at all.

I voted for answer number two, as I guess that's the closest to how I feel, but none of the options really fits my sentiment. I think Daboll, like any coach, is concerned about winning the next game. I think Taylor clearly played much better than Devito in the last game, plus Devito was poor in New Orleans, so he is switching QBs for that reason. He is going with the QB who he presently believes gives the team the best chance of winning this week.

I think the Giants coaches, front office, owners, and players would dispute the fan notion that a regular season game can be "meaningless." I think they want to win these games, and I think the coaches (primarily Daboll) feel he gives them the best chance right now.

I think when they chose DeVito over him a few weeks back it was a matter of "riding the wave" until further notice, and we have now gotten to that further notice.

Quote from: Gman329 on December 28, 2023, 09:31:43 AMNone of the above.  Tyrod is greatly respected by his teammates.  I have read that some were not happy that he didn't start when he was healthy and ready to play.  After coming off the bench and providing a spark and being clearly more effective than Tommy D, Daboll would risk losing the locker room if he didn't give the job back to Taylor. 

This is one of those things fans don't always think about with a team dynamic.  Especially when discussing "meaningless games".

The job of the Head Coach is to win games and put the team in the best position to win games. It was the case with DeVito at the time and it's the case now with Tyrod.

Everyone is concerned about their job.

It was discussed a month or so ago about draft position versus trying to win games in a lost season. Only fans are concerned with draft position. Coaches and players care about winning. Why would a professional athlete who gets paid to play and win games willingly try and lose for the team to be in a better position to draft younger players who may eventually replace them? It's an asinine proposition at best. Additionally, many contracts contain incentive clauses that allow the players to earn more money based on performance triggers.

The bottom line is that players want to win. Period.

Quote from: T200 on December 28, 2023, 09:58:23 AMEveryone is concerned about their job.

It was discussed a month or so ago about draft position versus trying to win games in a lost season. Only fans are concerned with draft position. Coaches and players care about winning. Why would a professional athlete who gets paid to play and win games willingly try and lose for the team to be in a better position to draft younger players who may eventually replace them? It's an asinine proposition at best. Additionally, many contracts contain incentive clauses that allow the players to earn more money based on performance triggers.

The bottom line is that players want to win. Period.

Additionally...Some will play not to get hurt. Business decisions.
It's called losing the team.
Starting Tyrod this week gets the team focused to win.

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 28, 2023, 10:02:55 AMAdditionally...Some will play not to get hurt. Business decisions.
It's called losing the team.
Starting Tyrod this week gets the team focused to win.

Daboll's shine has definitely lost some luster but I see no signs of him losing the locker room. This offseason and his coaching staff decisions will be key to his bounce-back or flop next year.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 09:02:27 AMWhy are we trying to win meaningless games so badly?

This is the perfect time to test our bench strength

The Giants decisions are often baffling

On the other hand beating Philly would soothe old wounds
especially if it puts them on the road for the playoffs

While I agree that I would like to see young talent given the chance to develop, even though the games are "meaningless", I think any player, coach and exec with any pride in themselves and the organization will try to win each and every game. I think Daboll feels TT gives the team the best chance to do just that.

Quote from: T200 on December 28, 2023, 10:08:39 AMDaboll's shine has definitely lost some luster but I see no signs of him losing the locker room. This offseason and his coaching staff decisions will be key to his bounce-back or flop next year.

I could see at the end of the second quarter, effort waning. If he left Tommy in, it's very likely it would have continued and he may have lost the team. Benching Tommy was the absolute right move at the time. It showed his team that he will do anything it takes to win. I also believe that if DJ hadn't gotten hurt and didn't improve his game, that he would have been benched and Tyrod would have gotten the next start.

He rode the Tommy Train because it sparked the team that was downtrodden. He clearly saw Tommy lost focus and the tide turned. So did the team. Developing a backup QB does not take priority over winning... and the owners were watching, very closely.

No. Devito is not good.

I have been rooting for the Giants since 1956.  My wife says that she hopes the the guys on the team and the coaches feel as bad after a loss as I do.  When the Giants lose, I am miserable to be around and Ive been pretty miserable the past few years and many others going back to 1956.  But, I've never wavered in how I feel about the team.  If the Giants were to fire Daboll after this year, unless its for a non football reason, I would stop rooting for the team.  Not that he hasn't made mistakes, he has.  All coaches make mistakes.  I totally get why he wants to start Taylor. He has an obligation to win and that obligation also extends to every player on the team who gets paid to win.  He's not thinking on how to develop the back up QB for next year. 

The morning paper (NY Post) says that Daboll is giving Tyrod the opportunity to showcase his skills so that he might get picked up by another team at the end of the season...sort of a "résumé builder". The belief is that he will not be back in a Giants' uniform next year, and Daboll thinks he deserves the chance to give other teams a peek at what he's got

Tyrod Taylor is a consummate professional who lost his starting job because of an injury. He only didn't immediately slot back in because DeVito had a few productive games. But once he came back to Earth (versus a top-tier defense), it is not unsurprising nor controversial to hand the job back to Taylor.

https://x.com/edeciccoin12183/status/1740373468208869685?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: T200 on December 28, 2023, 09:58:23 AMEveryone is concerned about their job.

It was discussed a month or so ago about draft position versus trying to win games in a lost season. Only fans are concerned with draft position. Coaches and players care about winning. Why would a professional athlete who gets paid to play and win games willingly try and lose for the team to be in a better position to draft younger players who may eventually replace them? It's an asinine proposition at best. Additionally, many contracts contain incentive clauses that allow the players to earn more money based on performance triggers.

The bottom line is that players want to win. Period.

Coaches perhaps but GMs and Owners want to build a winning team
WE ARE NOT A WINNING TEAM AND HAVE NOT BEEN FOREVER

Play the damn bench, see what you have beyond the starters
playing two contending teams while they still something to play for is a rare rare opportunity to stretch the available talent and see what we have.  for instance Carter Coughlin is 1000% better tackler than McFadden IMHO

Its not about the draft entirely

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 10:59:17 AMCoaches perhaps but GMs and Owners want to build a winning team
WE ARE NOT A WINNING TEAM AND HAVE NOT BEEN FOREVER

Play the damn bench, see what you have beyond the starters
playing two contending teams while they still something to play for is a rare rare opportunity to stretch the available talent and see what we have.  for instance Carter Coughlin is 1000% better tackler than McFadden IMHO

Its not about the draft entirely

I think your post was primarily about DeVito vs Taylor. In both cases, they are the backups. Due to Jones being on IR, both of the backup QBs have seen significant playing time. More than enough to know what we have in them each: BACKUP QBs. Can they win a game or two? Sure, but they aren't the long-term answer.

I've already gone on record saying that I think Taylor will be moving on next season. Our QBs should be Jones, DeVito, and whatever rookie is drafted in April.

As far as owners/GMs wanting to "build" a winning team, that goes without saying. But the operative word is WINNING. They can't win without putting their best players on the field. DeVito is not better than Taylor.

Quote from: T200 on December 28, 2023, 11:04:49 AMI think your post was primarily about DeVito vs Taylor. In both cases, they are the backups. Due to Jones being on IR, both of the backup QBs have seen significant playing time. More than enough to know what we have in them each: BACKUP QBs. Can they win a game or two? Sure, but they aren't the long-term answer.

I've already gone on record saying that I think Taylor will be moving on next season. Our QBs should be Jones, DeVito, and whatever rookie is drafted in April.

As far as owners/GMs wanting to "build" a winning team, that goes without saying. But the operative word is WINNING. They can't win without putting their best players on the field. DeVito is not better than Taylor.

I think you missed part of my point which was play the whole 53 man roster and whatever PS players you can activate too

There may be a diamond in the rough

Nothing Taylor or Devito does in the next two games will change their status. So all that being equal, Taylor is clearly better and a long time vet. He deserves the start and if Daboll did not start him that message would be heard around the league with others who might want to come to the Giants

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 12:01:04 PMI think you missed part of my point which was play the whole 53 man roster and whatever PS players you can activate too

There may be a diamond in the rough

It's December, they know what they have in all the backups. Carter Coughlin has been here for years he's not that diamond.

Besides that we've been so injured that most of our backups have seen playing time, the only one that hasn't is probably Coughlin because McFadden/Bobby OK haven't been injured.

Tyrod is a significantly better Qb than Devito and its not really close. 

No. He's doing his job-try to put his best players out there. Win. If he didn't; he'd lose respect of his team. No different than players making "business decisions" with how the staff views them

Tyrod gives the Giants a chance against a Ram team traveling across the country playing an early game.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 12:01:04 PMI think you missed part of my point which was play the whole 53 man roster and whatever PS players you can activate too

There may be a diamond in the rough

I didn't. My point was that I think your impetus for this thread was the fact that Daboll chose to go with Tyrod instead of Tommy. None of your poll choices mentioned anything about the rest of the roster. In fact, I highly doubt you would have created this poll if Tommy was named the starter. By bringing up the "whole 53 man roster and whatever PS players...", it looks like an attempt to alter your initial point.

Just as fans have a different view about draft position versus winning games without being in the playoff hunt, we also don't have the luxury of seeing the entire roster Tuesday through Saturday and how they practice. There's a reason these coaches select who they want to play in games. I'm not suggesting they always get it right but they sure as hell have way more information than we do to make those calls.

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 28, 2023, 10:24:41 AMThe morning paper (NY Post) says that Daboll is giving Tyrod the opportunity to showcase his skills so that he might get picked up by another team at the end of the season...sort of a "résumé builder". The belief is that he will not be back in a Giants' uniform next year, and Daboll thinks he deserves the chance to give other teams a peek at what he's got

this theory makes far more sense than anything else posted here
by a mile
that and the fact Daboll does not want a stinker record posted on his resume
at this point Taylor is better than DeVito but thats more because DeVito is not getting the whole playbook to work from
Both are good QBs and both are superior to Jones who has totally lost his mojo
Two things are holding our offense back- Kafkas poor play calling and Barkley's not being part of a rotation rather than a guy getting 90% of the snaps
Barkley's 1.7 YPC but for the occasional long run and Kafkas man love your the horizontal passing game behind the LOS are KILLING us

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on December 28, 2023, 10:24:41 AMThe morning paper (NY Post) says that Daboll is giving Tyrod the opportunity to showcase his skills so that he might get picked up by another team at the end of the season...sort of a "résumé builder". The belief is that he will not be back in a Giants' uniform next year, and Daboll thinks he deserves the chance to give other teams a peek at what he's got

A Post article that's actually not moronic.

https://nypost.com/2023/12/27/sports/tyrod-taylors-latest-giants-chance-means-everything-to-him/

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 09:02:27 AMWhy are we trying to win meaningless games so badly?

This is the perfect time to test our bench strength

The Giants decisions are often baffling

On the other hand beating Philly would soothe old wounds
especially if it puts them on the road for the playoffs

The Giants pay him to win games, not secure higher picks. He's doing his job even if it's counterproductive to our draft status. You'd do the same exact thing if you were in his position.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2023, 12:25:54 PMIt's December, they know what they have in all the backups. Carter Coughlin has been here for years he's not that diamond.

Besides that we've been so injured that most of our backups have seen playing time, the only one that hasn't is probably Coughlin because McFadden/Bobby OK haven't been injured.

Tyrod is a significantly better Qb than Devito and its not really close. 

Quote from: madbadger on December 28, 2023, 04:00:38 PMThe Giants pay him to win games, not secure higher picks. He's doing his job even if it's counterproductive to our draft status. You'd do the same exact thing if you were in his position.

Funny the company line 1 month ago was why are we playing DeVito
We need to lose 5 for the "Gipper" and draft some not NFL tested QB project...cant have it both ways

We know what TT can do
Id give each of them a game or a half a piece

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 04:45:45 PMFunny the company line 1 month ago was why are we playing DeVito
We need to lose 5 for the "Gipper" and draft some not NFL tested QB project...cant have it both ways

We know what TT can do
Id give each of them a game or a half a piece

I think you mistook most Giants fans then or didnt understand, yes they'd love a great draft pick but when the games start/the whistle blows they are 100% invested in the team winning. Now when the game ends we can discuss picks and hope for a high one but while they are ongoing we are 150% in on the team winning and that has always been the case.

We know what devito can do at this point as well, Taylor gives us the best chance to win. There's no argument that can be made that Devito gives us a better chance to win so why play him? He's playing the position he'll play in the future which is sitting on the bench.

Quote from: Jclayton92 on December 28, 2023, 05:00:56 PMI think you mistook most Giants fans then or didnt understand, yes they'd love a great draft pick but when the games start/the whistle blows they are 100% invested in the team winning. Now when the game ends we can discuss picks and hope for a high one but while they are ongoing we are 150% in on the team winning and that has always been the case.

We know what devito can do at this point as well, Taylor gives us the best chance to win. There's no argument that can be made that Devito gives us a better chance to win so why play him? He's playing the position he'll play in the future which is sitting on the bench.

Boy you really hate this kid....nice

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 05:13:08 PMBoy you really hate this kid....nice

So anyone who thinks DeVito isn't going to be a full time NFL starter "hates" him?

 :what:

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 28, 2023, 05:21:32 PMSo anyone who thinks DeVito isn't going to be a full time NFL starter "hates" him?

 :what:

sorry over reaction

my bad

I think tommy has a future, lets see how things go

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 06:01:39 PMsorry over reaction

my bad

I think tommy has a future, lets see how things go

Fair enough.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 28, 2023, 04:45:45 PMFunny the company line 1 month ago was why are we playing DeVito
We need to lose 5 for the "Gipper" and draft some not NFL tested QB project...cant have it both ways

We know what TT can do
Id give each of them a game or a half a piece

As a fan I want the best possible draft pick. As the head coach he is coaching for his job. Both can be true at the same time.

Quote from: madbadger on December 28, 2023, 06:22:23 PMAs a fan I want the best possible draft pick. As the head coach he is coaching for his job. Both can be true at the same time.

I am with you in terms of the point you are making, but are you of the opinion that Daboll is at even a very small risk of losing his job after this season ? Or did you just mean that it is his job to try to win ?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 28, 2023, 06:25:07 PMI am with you in terms of the point you are making, but are you of the opinion that Daboll is at even a very small risk of losing his job after this season ? Or did you just mean that it is his job to try to win ?

If you were making millions each year and could be fired at any time would you do everything humanly possible with your job to earn as much goodwill from your boss. If I'm Mara I'd be furious if he rolled over and played dead. That difference could mean the difference between lasting three years or getting a fourth to prove your self.

 I think we all can say Tyrod is a better QB than Tommy, but do we really know what we have in Tommy? Sure he is raw and with a year or two of experience, he might be much better than he is now. With Tyrod we know exactly what we have, he isn't going to get better.

As the OP said, if Daboll wants to win football games he goes with the better QB, but I sure aren't ready to dump Tommy until he gains much-needed experience and then sees what he can do.

Quote from: LennG on December 28, 2023, 07:02:56 PMI think we all can say Tyrod is a better QB than Tommy, but do we really know what we have in Tommy? Sure he is raw and with a year or two of experience, he might be much better than he is now. With Tyrod we know exactly what we have, he isn't going to get better.

As the OP said, if Daboll wants to win football games he goes with the better QB, but I sure aren't ready to dump Tommy until he gains much-needed experience and then sees what he can do.

What do you suggest they do with Tommy though if they draft a QB in the first round? Seeing that they have no way of getting rid of Jones in 2024, are you in favor of using three roster spots on the QB position?

Coach's job is to put the best team possible on the field.  DeVito sucks.  Tyrod sucks a little less.

Hands down Tyrod is one of the WORST intermediate passers I have had the displeasure to watch.  And that goes back to his overhyped Va Tech days.

With his NFL knowledge and experience he is a journeyman backup QB and there ain't no upside except for frustration when he plays in semi meaningful games.

Subtract his gimme 70 yard TD pass to Slayton his game stats were worse than Touchdown Tommy.  The last play of game pass .... ugh.

But he was a spark.....helping the Special Teams to recover the 2nd half kickoff and influencing the Jets WR to fall down and allow us to gather a pick 6 to put us back in the game.

If Dabs made the decision to pull Tommy because he feared losing the locker room, that alone tells me we need to start looking for a real HC.  Just another dubious decision to pile on his resume this season.  The man has gotten a lot of mileage out of a 2 point conversion decision 30 some games ago.

And if you want to use the excuse "growing pains" for Dabs, well then why does that not apply to his QB  ???

If I thought it worth saying once, why not repeat it.

The nature of the situation, characters, and events created what is sometimes referred to as a human-interest story. Given how short is the usual span of human interest of both local media and principally that of broadly disillusioned Giants fans, time would appear to have expired on the Tommy DeVito show.

Is there really more to it than that, some larger point about which a consensus needs to be developed? Are there not far more pressing issues facing the team, its owners, management and staff, and yes, even us?

Cheers!

Quote from: Painter on December 28, 2023, 08:52:45 PMIf I thought it worth saying once, why not repeat it.

The nature of the situation, characters, and events created what is sometimes referred to as a human-interest story. Given how short is the usual span of human interest of both local media and principally that of broadly disillusioned Giants fans, time would appear to have expired on the Tommy DeVito show.

Is there really more to it than that, some larger point about which a consensus needs to be developed? Are there not far more pressing issues facing the team, its owners, management and staff, and yes, even us?

Cheers!

We are a pressing issue?  LOL Ok

Dabs got the spark he was looking for
It came from the defense but whos counting

I'll say this  Tyrod is very adept at escaping the pocket
very very quick and decisive

I think however Tommy handled the 2 minute drill much better than Tyrod

The same guy who gift wrapped a victory to the Bills with seconds remaining

The toss to Waller was dumb and not instructing Waller beforehand to pop right up in a "clock" situation was not good either

It seems Tyrod just cannot be trusted in the 2 minute drill situations

Neither QB is the future of this team. 

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 29, 2023, 02:45:05 AMWe are a pressing issue?  LOL Ok

Dabs got the spark he was looking for
It came from the defense but whos counting

I'll say this  Tyrod is very adept at escaping the pocket
very very quick and decisive

I think however Tommy handled the 2 minute drill much better than Tyrod

The same guy who gift wrapped a victory to the Bills with seconds remaining

The toss to Waller was dumb and not instructing Waller beforehand to pop right up in a "clock" situation was not good either

It seems Tyrod just cannot be trusted in the 2 minute drill situations

How did he handle the other 28 minutes?

Tommy's a good kid. He hasn't shown that he's a consistent starter. It didn't take long for teams to figure him out. He's got a limited skillset and he was exposed. He actually looked worse than Jones and that's why he got pulled. The game is too fast for him right now.

I get that you like him but trying to prop him up to be better than what he is is just asking everyone to trust YOUR eyes and not our own. Not gonna happen. And it has nothing to do with hating the kid.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 29, 2023, 02:45:05 AMWe are a pressing issue?  LOL Ok

Dabs got the spark he was looking for
It came from the defense but whos counting

I'll say this  Tyrod is very adept at escaping the pocket
very very quick and decisive

I think however Tommy handled the 2 minute drill much better than Tyrod

The same guy who gift wrapped a victory to the Bills with seconds remaining

The toss to Waller was dumb and not instructing Waller beforehand to pop right up in a "clock" situation was not good either

It seems Tyrod just cannot be trusted in the 2 minute drill situations

Are you talking about the 2nd Commanders game and Patriots game? 

Quote from: Ed Vette on December 28, 2023, 09:54:07 AMThe job of the Head Coach is to win games and put the team in the best position to win games. It was the case with DeVito at the time and it's the case now with Tyrod.

This.

Nothing more, nothing less. The job of any head coach is to win the next football game on the schedule. If you don't understand this, you don't understand professional sports.

QuoteShouldnt we be developing DeVito and exploring his potential

The coaching staff did just that, which is why Tyrod Taylor is starting.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 28, 2023, 07:18:53 PMWhat do you suggest they do with Tommy though if they draft a QB in the first round? Seeing that they have no way of getting rid of Jones in 2024, are you in favor of using three roster spots on the QB position?

Dave

Yes, draft a QB and he sits for most of the year. If Jones needs to be replaced, either for injury or ineffectiveness, then the rookie starts, Jones the backup unless hurt, and Tommy will stay. After we rid ourselves of Jones then the rookie. starts and Tommy is the backup.

Quote from: LennG on December 29, 2023, 01:39:33 PMDave

Yes, draft a QB and he sits for most of the year. If Jones needs to be replaced, either for injury or ineffectiveness, then the rookie starts, Jones the backup unless hurt, and Tommy will stay. After we rid ourselves of Jones then the rookie. starts and Tommy is the backup.

100% this.

My only caveat to this is that the rookie and DeVito duke it out in camp and preseason. Whoever is playing the best until Jones is ready to start.

The caveat to the above caveat is that if the Giants are winning when Jones is ready, he will not come in and disrupt the chemistry.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 29, 2023, 08:46:55 AMAre you talking about the 2nd Commanders game and Patriots game? 

what?  Im talking about the pick six and Boston Scott muffing the punt

Tyrod put a TD on the board
The Giants D put the other 2 TDs on the board

Taylor is a 2 minute drill TOTAL failure

Compare his dumb pass to Waller to the Sent from heaven Tommy pass to Robinson to beat the Packers

Plus Tyrod made the dumbest play since Garo Yupremian by changing the play vs the Bills to a Barkley run with zero blocking

DeVito is the better QB.  No question about it
Dabs has some kind of weird loyalty to his Bill back-up- Taylor

Taylor had the one good pass to Slayton and then???

100 or so ineffective passing yards (deducting the Slayon play)
and suddenly he is reborn?

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 29, 2023, 04:30:50 PMwhat?  Im talking about the pick six and Boston Scott muffing the punt

Tyrod put a TD on the board
The Giants D put the other 2 TDs on the board

Taylor is a 2 minute drill TOTAL failure

Compare his dumb pass to Waller to the Sent from heaven Tommy pass to Robinson to beat the Packers

Plus Tyrod made the dumbest play since Garo Yupremian by changing the play vs the Bills to a Barkley run with zero blocking

DeVito is the better QB.  No question about it
Dabs has some kind of weird loyalty to his Bill back-up- Taylor

Taylor had the one good pass to Slayton and then???

100 or so ineffective passing yards (deducting the Slayon play)
and suddenly he is reborn?

I just thought you were talking about the 9 turnovers that the Giants got in eking out two victories with a QB throwing for 220 or so ineffective yards (for 2 games combined) also deducting the two big plays on those games.

Quote from: BluesCruz on December 29, 2023, 04:30:50 PMwhat?  Im talking about the pick six and Boston Scott muffing the punt

Tyrod put a TD on the board
The Giants D put the other 2 TDs on the board

Taylor is a 2 minute drill TOTAL failure

Compare his dumb pass to Waller to the Sent from heaven Tommy pass to Robinson to beat the Packers

Plus Tyrod made the dumbest play since Garo Yupremian by changing the play vs the Bills to a Barkley run with zero blocking

DeVito is the better QB.  No question about it
Dabs has some kind of weird loyalty to his Bill back-up- Taylor

Taylor had the one good pass to Slayton and then???

100 or so ineffective passing yards (deducting the Slayon play)
and suddenly he is reborn?

Tyrod is easily the better Qb and it's not close. I would genuinely love for you to try and prove Devito is better by using actual stats or analytics instead of whatever that was..

I think it's one of the easier eye tests, as Devito did absolutely nothing in New Orleans or Philly, but when tyrod went in the offense mysteriously starts moving down the field... hmm 🤔  I wonder why that is.