They are over 80 sacks in a season which is highest in my lifetime. Yes they had injuries but they have not looked good at all.
How has management not pressed Dabs to make a coaching change midseason? Judge did it and as I recalled, it helped a lot.
Do they possibly think he is not the reason for the OL's poor play?
Or is it Daboll's buddy (Johnson)? What explains it is a mystery trapped in a Giant enigma
.
If he returns inexplicaby, that a major blow to Dabs credibility.
:doh:
Quote from: spiderblue43 on January 01, 2024, 11:18:47 AMOr is it Daboll's buddy (Johnson)? What explains it is a mystery trapped in a Giant enigma
.
If he returns inexplicaby, that a major blow to Dabs credibility.
:doh:
Yes as I would think his loyalty is blind or that he is really something in evaluation of units/players.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 01, 2024, 11:12:57 AMThey are over 80 sacks in a season which is highest in my lifetime. Yes they had injuries but they have not looked good at all.
How has management not pressed Dabs to make a coaching change midseason? Judge did it and as I recalled, it helped a lot.
Do they possibly think he is not the reason for the OL's poor play?
I see you posted at 11:12 AM Today. What is the purpose of firing an assistant coach with one game to play and totally out of any playoff contention ? I am sure after the season is over there will be several coaching firers and hires .
" see you posted at 11:12 AM Today. What is the purpose of firing an assistant coach with one game to play and totally out of any playoff contention ? I am sure after the season is over there will be several coaching firers and hires . "
I don't think the OP's point was that he should be fired specifically today. I think he was asking why it hasn't already happened a while ago.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 01, 2024, 11:47:38 AM" see you posted at 11:12 AM Today. What is the purpose of firing an assistant coach with one game to play and totally out of any playoff contention ? I am sure after the season is over there will be several coaching firers and hires . "
I don't think the OP's point was that he should be fired specifically today. I think he was asking why it hasn't already happened a while ago.
Thanks. Yes what you wrote is what I was thinking. Not during him today but sometime during the season.
I don't disagree that Johnson should be gone.
However I believe there are several changes that need to be made and anyone in the position of hiring/firing knows that you don't make these moves lightly.
This is an ongoing discussion with your GM which includes a short list of qualified candidates you know would seriously consider the opportunity while at the same time avoiding any potential tampering violations.
If this is done right, it's a process.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
This season was lost early. What would he gained by firing coaches in the middle of the year? I am also mindful that when we say X coach should be fired and goose marched out the facility we often forget that's a person with a family whose life is going to be turned upside down. I understand that firings are inevitable. I just hope they're handled with class unlike some other franchises.
We need an excellent OL coach and you don't attract an excellent coach if you have a history of firing coaches mid year.
I heard it stated that Carl Banks said Johnson is Dabolls best friend away from work
The reality is he is not firing anyone mid season.
If what Banks said is true, there is 0 chance he is firing his best friend mid season
I expect them to go separate ways at seasons end
This is the classic best friend hiring delemna
Its very painful to seperate oneself from the business decision afterwards if it needs to come to that
Also our talent level is really bad too......bad talent, bad coaching, bad situation
Offensive line has been an issue for some time now ....over a couple of headaches time at the least....
The o line coach and or assistants along the line should be a high priority for evaluation even before the players themselves.....as with all the " talent " they have drafted and acquired over the years...something bad happens on the field . is it blocking techniques that are lacking ? Blocking schemes ? something isn't working or at very least needs to improve for the offense to move forward and get more consistent.
Quote from: babywhales on January 02, 2024, 12:09:36 AMI heard it stated that Carl Banks said Johnson is Dabolls best friend away from work
The reality is he is not firing anyone mid season.
If what Babes said is teue, there is 0 chance he is firing his best friend mid season
I expect them to go separate ways at seasons end
Chris,
Where did you hear this? I listen to Banks' podcast I had not heard this and an extensive internet search couldn't confirm it.
One reason I would have fired the OL Coach by now is that as long as he is with the team, the young players are not getting better and in some cases seem worse. I would think that getting someone in here as fast as possible would be paramount to getting the unit, especially the young players, to improve.
I don't know what a midseason firing would have accomplished.
Plus, as poorly as the Giants offensive line has played, injuries certainly were a mitigating factor. I think the Giants lead the league in the number of different offensive line starting combinations, and that lack of continuity would hurt a line.
So while I 100% favor firing BJ at after the season, I don't think a mid-season firing was really justified or worth it.
All I hear are excuses. They were not ready by the end of preseason camp as well.
Eli would get sacked in e and this board would erupt. We got sacked over 80 times. That is close if not a league record.
It starts with this man.
As far as inside info on a potential Daboll departure, unless the Chargers have been up to some serious tampering, I don't see a 2nd yr HC who has never been an NFL HC prior to this opportunity, simply walking away.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2024, 09:23:39 AMAll I hear are excuses.
We had a thread last month about nuance and looking deeper into issues. Comments like this suggest we should do the opposite, that we should view issues on the most superficial of levels.
Factors that impact performance matter. They should not be dismissed out of hand by calling them "excuses."
The funny thing is, it's not like we see things all that differently. It's only a matter of degree; you wanted BJ to be a mid-season firing. I want him fired at the end of the season. The difference is I appreciate the injury issue (I didn't even mention the sacks that Cutlets created on his own).
In the end, it was a combination of poor coaching, talent, and injuries (along with a rookie QB who held on to the ball too long). Hopefully the Giants will address all three issues in the offseason.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2024, 09:00:00 AMChris,
Where did you hear this? I listen to Banks' podcast I had not heard this and an extensive internet search couldn't confirm it.
I heard it the morning of Wed, Dec 20 as people were referencing Banks comment, stated as I wrote it .
Later that am I wrote a variety of East coast giants fans and asked if they had heard it,?
They had not
I only knew the date as it was in my text thread from looking into it
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2024, 09:23:39 AMAll I hear are excuses. They were not ready by the end of preseason camp as well.
Eli would get sacked in e and this board would erupt. We got sacked over 80 times. That is close if not a league record.
It starts with this man.
Frankly the whole pre-season was a cluster flop,and that was on Daboll. And it left them totally unprepared to start the season, as evidenced by the sterling performance of the first game.
But nowhere was it worse than on the O-line. In a position group where the most important thing is unit cohesion and knowing the players around you (cf the 2008 O-line, where the whole far exceeded the sum of the parts) it seemed like every day it was a different combination. And while that's on Johnson, Daboll let him do it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2024, 09:35:18 AMWe had a thread last month about nuance and looking deeper into issues. Comments like this suggest we should do the opposite, that we should view issues on the most superficial of levels.
Factors that impact performance matter. They should not be dismissed out of hand by calling them "excuses."
The funny thing is, it's not like we see things all that differently. It's only a matter of degree; you wanted BJ to be a mid-season firing. I want him fired at the end of the season. The difference is I appreciate the injury issue (I didn't even mention the sacks that Cutlets created on his own).
In the end, it was a combination of poor coaching, talent, and injuries (along with a rookie QB who held on to the ball too long). Hopefully the Giants will address all three issues in the offseason.
Rich - do you remember the forst game of the season when Neal could not even get a hand on an edge before he sacked a QB? It's up to the OL coach to not let that happen or say "Neal is not there yet and have somebody else prepared at least to do better than that meager effort.
What OL (ignore Thomas) actually improved from last year? How did JMS do compared to Tyler Lindenbaum (previous year) or other rookie centers who started the past few seasons? How did Johnson do teaching the OL players how to communicate pre-snap? I saw 5 OL not operatibg as a unit. Worst OL play of my life.
I cant believe the pass folks are giving here.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2024, 09:23:39 AMAll I hear are excuses. They were not ready by the end of preseason camp as well.
Eli would get sacked in e and this board would erupt. We got sacked over 80 times. That is close if not a league record.
It starts with this man.
2023 Giants, 83 Sacks is the 2nd highest 16 game total in history of the NFL
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2024, 11:17:27 AMRich - do you remember the forst game of the season when Neal could not even get a hand on an edge before he sacked a QB? It's up to the OL coach to not let that happen or say "Neal is not there yet and have somebody else prepared at least to do better than that meager effort.
What OL (ignore Thomas) actually improved from last year? How did JMS do compared to Tyler Lindenbaum (previous year) or other rookie centers who started the past few seasons? How did Johnson do teaching the OL players how to communicate pre-snap? I saw 5 OL not operatibg as a unit. Worst OL play of my life.
I cant believe the pass folks are giving here.
I struggle to see how wanting the guy fired in a week constitutes "giving him a pass"
It's a good question.
Few things make me more uncomfortable than suggesting someone gets fired, and I also have a sinking feeling there are higher forces at play, but their needs to be accountability for such a horrendous outcome.
He's been given Evan Neal, Josh Ezeudu, JMS and Marcus McKethan and amazingly, they've all regressed as they've played more. Lemieux looked serviceable in Garrett's offense and was God Awful. Glowinski (a known commodity)'s play apparently fell off a cliff to the point they have no interest using him, despite the high salary. Guys like Mayfield looked lost when called upon.
Andrew Thomas is the unicorn that has managed to excel despite the circumstances. Literally every other player they've brought in under Johnson has been a complete disaster, and has regressed the more they've played. And as a group, the communication and knowledge of assignments is obviously terrible. What can you say?
Forgive me for not reading the entire thread.
@MightyGiants Rich, can you look up the PFF grades Run and Pass Blocking of;
Hernandez
Zeitler
Remmers
Gates
Feliciano
Quote from: Philosophers on January 01, 2024, 11:12:57 AMThey are over 80 sacks in a season which is highest in my lifetime. Yes they had injuries but they have not looked good at all.
How has management not pressed Dabs to make a coaching change midseason? Judge did it and as I recalled, it helped a lot.
Do they possibly think he is not the reason for the OL's poor play?
1) whatever Judge did, every other coach should do the opposite. 2) IIRC, Judge fired Colombo after Colombo threatened him, physically.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 02, 2024, 07:56:11 PMForgive me for not reading the entire thread. @MightyGiants Rich, can you look up the PFF grades Run and Pass Blocking of;
Hernandez
Zeitler
Remmers
Gates
Feliciano
........ overall Pass Run
Hernandez 67.4 - 69.5 - 62.6
Zeitler 69.3 - 82.5 - 59.7
Remmers No 2023 Snaps
Gates 65.9 - 62.0 - 70.7
Feliciano 81.2 - 66.5 - 87.0
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 03, 2024, 08:27:39 AM........ overall Pass Run
Hernandez 67.4 - 69.5 - 62.6
Zeitler 69.3 - 82.5 - 59.7
Remmers No 2023 Snaps
Gates 65.9 - 62.0 - 70.7
Feliciano 81.2 - 66.5 - 87.0
Better than our starting Guards and Center?
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 03, 2024, 08:40:44 AMBetter than our starting Guards and Center?
Almost all of them have better run-blocking than pass-blocking grades
(https://i.imgur.com/DXHia2o.png)
If Daboll is truly headed for the parking lot, I would love to see Wink get his shot at HC for the Giants
His Defense is good and getting better. Daboll/Kafka's Offense has been tough on the eyes.
Wink has more football knowledge than 80% of the HCs in the league
I trust he would devise a very good offense also
Parcells and Belicheck were former DCs, it all makes sense to me.
Quote from: babywhales on January 02, 2024, 11:20:12 AM2023 Giants, 83 Sacks is the 2nd highest 16 game total in history of the NFL
Thanks for researching that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 03, 2024, 09:07:26 AMAlmost all of them have better run-blocking than pass-blocking grades
(https://i.imgur.com/DXHia2o.png)
So the players they let go are playing significantly better than what they have now. I can read it two ways. What do you think?
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 03, 2024, 11:26:07 AMSo the players they let go are playing significantly better than what they have now. I can read it two ways. What do you think?
At first blush, it would seem that the Giants organization, likely due to coach and/or scheme, is not getting the most out of the talent they acquire.
Of course, I am the type that likes to drill down. So I have
Hernandez
(https://i.imgur.com/ezdMsUY.png)
Will had a solid freshman year with NYG then regressed but returned to his freshman form when he played for the Cards
Zeitler
(https://i.imgur.com/SoUI29T.png)
Played well his first year with NYG then regressed only to return to form when he went to the Ravens
Gates
(https://i.imgur.com/pUHp0Qt.png)
I do not see a strong enough pattern to draw any conclusions
Feliciano
(https://i.imgur.com/0s0vIOa.png)
Under Bobby Johnson most of his career, he seemed to play to a consistent level. He really took off (albeit with limited snaps) when he played for a new coaching staff with the elite 49ers.
It's hard not to conclude that the Giants have had a string of poor offensive line coaches. So bad that players regress if they play with the team long enough but will return to form with other teams.
Now, it's still possible that we are dealing with a round peg in a square hole type scenario where NYG simply puts the offensive linemen in schemes they are not comfortable with (a zone blocker in a M2M or vice versa, as an example) but I have to think the one-year decline patter makes that possibility less likely.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 03, 2024, 11:52:32 AMAt first blush, it would seem that the Giants organization, likely due to coach and/or scheme, is not getting the most out of the talent they acquire.
Of course, I am the type that likes to drill down. So I have
Hernandez
(https://i.imgur.com/ezdMsUY.png)
Will had a solid freshman year with NYG then regressed but returned to his freshman form when he played for the Cards
Zeitler
(https://i.imgur.com/SoUI29T.png)
Played well his first year with NYG then regressed only to return to form when he went to the Ravens
Gates
(https://i.imgur.com/pUHp0Qt.png)
I do not see a strong enough pattern to draw any conclusions
Feliciano
(https://i.imgur.com/0s0vIOa.png)
Under Bobby Johnson most of his career, he seemed to play to a consistent level. He really took off (albeit with limited snaps) when he played for a new coaching staff with the elite 49ers.
It's hard not to conclude that the Giants have had a string of poor offensive line coaches. So bad that players regress if they play with the team long enough but will return to form with other teams.
Now, it's still possible that we are dealing with a round peg in a square hole type scenario where NYG simply puts the offensive linemen in schemes they are not comfortable with (a zone blocker in a M2M or vice versa, as an example) but I have to think the one-year decline patter makes that possibility less likely.
I agree. Most players are either power for agility at Center/Guard. Imagine the kind of year Barkley would have had behind Hernandez or Gates, Feliciano and Zeitler. Surely would have opened up the intermediate passing game, unless they only improved because they moved on.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 03, 2024, 11:52:32 AMAt first blush, it would seem that the Giants organization, likely due to coach and/or scheme, is not getting the most out of the talent they acquire.
Of course, I am the type that likes to drill down. So I have
It's hard not to conclude that the Giants have had a string of poor offensive line coaches. So bad that players regress if they play with the team long enough but will return to form with other teams.
Now, it's still possible that we are dealing with a round peg in a square hole type scenario where NYG simply puts the offensive linemen in schemes they are not comfortable with (a zone blocker in a M2M or vice versa, as an example) but I have to think the one-year decline patter makes that possibility less likely.
The good news in all of this is that just as these players bounced back once they got out of the malevolent atmosphere of the Giants' OL room,
IF they can manage to get a good OL coach we can expect improvement from the guys they have. But it's a big if.
About 10-15 years ago, with the rise of the pistol offense in college, NFL teams complained that college OL players were not as good coming out of college than previously particularly when it came to pass blocking. I have to assume that has continued to some extent. If true, maybe we need to improve it more with free agent signings than draft picks.
Interesting:
https://twitter.com/postcrabcore/status/1743354261931511840
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 05, 2024, 07:15:57 PMInteresting:
https://twitter.com/postcrabcore/status/1743354261931511840
Good OL sees other options for players that plays to their strengths and may make them more effective
Quote from: Philosophers on January 05, 2024, 08:17:27 PMGood OL sees other options for players that plays to their strengths and may make them more effective
Too bad we don't have anyone on our coaching staff that shares that philosophy. :boooo:
How many Head Coaches and Coordinators and Position Coaches have the Giants had since Coughlin, Gilbride, Spagnuolo, Flaherty, Waufle, Quinn et al ran teams which were sufficiently successful to have avoided being dumped all over as have their successors all of whose names should be quite familiar this past decade.
All I know of Bobby Johnson is that his work in 3 years as Bills Oline coach, beginning with a largely inexperienced group of players, was sufficiently successful in contributing to the success of its Offense and overall, that Schoen/Daboll made sure that he came with them to the Giants. Of course, now following last season's now-you-see-it, now-you-don't tease, he's no more than one of many who should be in shite.
As for the talent and lack thereof of the Giants Olines (plural), all I have seen is years of roster turnover and inconsistency such that it rarely if ever exceeded a College Division 2 talent level. Certainly, nothing like Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee, and McKenzie if we need a reference.
Frankly, I think that had they gotten anything like the anticipated, although possibly overrated, performance from Evan Neal at ORT followed this season by the addition of JMS at OC and now perhaps their 1st and one of their 2nd Rounders to do for the Oline (and QB) what has been needed for much too long, it might not be so far-fetched that we won't need to keep on "tale of tape" crunching in search of an answer.
Cheers!