On a scale of one to ten. Ten being you believe the Giants are a Super Bowl contender in the next year or two and one being you expect another decade of futility, where are you at? Bonus points for explaining your answer.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 08:29:54 AMOn a scale of one to ten. Ten being you believe the Giants are a Super Bowl contender in the next year or two and one being you expect another decade of futility, where are you at? Bonus points for explaining your answer.
Idk about Superbowl contender , but I think they can turn it around. We need to fix some major holes though.... not just QB
I'd put myself at a 4 or 5 right now.
It would be lower except that I do still like Schoen and Daboll and continue to believe that the franchise is in good hands with those two at the helm. By no means does that mean I'm turning a blind eye to the mistakes/shortcomings both have exhibited so far, particularly this year, but I still like them.
Unfortunately, I continue to think Mara is an impediment and that the organization broadly (mainly because of him and some of the other sacred cows like his brother) is stodgy, stubborn, and not at all nimble. I think Schoen is a strong force against that, but at the end of the day the owner is (obviously) in the dominant position.
So I'd say the roster situation is a 2 or 3, but I'm bumping it up to a 4 or 5 (we can call it a 4.5) due to my belief that we have solid leadership right now, at least in the front office and coaching ranks. I'd probably have it as a solid 5 or 6 if we were picking fourth or higher in this draft. Unfortunately, the base case now is that we won't draft our QB of the future in this draft, so it's hard to feel particularly good about things.
If the don't address the QB issue, not good. If they do, I'm optimistic. If they don't recognize that the best QB on the roster is a very good back up,and need a real potentially elite, franchise QB, I will have no faith going forward.
Quote from: katkavage on January 08, 2024, 09:56:47 AMIf the don't address the QB issue, not good. If they do, I'm optimistic. If they don't recognize that the best QB on the roster is a very good back up,and need a real potentially elite, franchise QB, I will have no faith going forward.
The only way they can "address the QB issue" by adding a "real potentially elite, franchise QB" at this point would be a trade-up or by drafting Penix 6th overall and praying he not only lives up to what he has been in college but also stays healthy. Otherwise it's going to have to wait at least a year.
Unless we want to entertain the possibility that they take someone like Nix in the second round and he actually turns into a stud.
More likely than not we'll be running it back again with a hobbled Dimes, Tyrod (or some other journeyman type), and maybe an occasional appearance from Cutlets.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 10:14:32 AMThe only way they can "address the QB issue" by adding a "real potentially elite, franchise QB" at this point would be a trade-up or by drafting Penix 6th overall and praying he not only lives up to what he has been in college but also stays healthy. Otherwise it's going to have to wait at least a year.
Unless we want to entertain the possibility that they take someone like Nix in the second round and he actually turns into a stud.
More likely than not we'll be running it back again with a hobbled Dimes, Tyrod (or some other journeyman type), and maybe an occasional appearance from Cutlets.
I'm not sure they won't have a chance at one of the three. I'm not sold that the Bears take Williams but trade that pick to Washington and with Washington's pick take Harrison. I don't see Arizona taking a QB or the Chargers. In that scenario they get one. Also the draft board might alter somewhat with the exception of Williams. Maybe someone rises while another falls. We shall see.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 10:14:32 AMThe only way they can "address the QB issue" by adding a "real potentially elite, franchise QB" at this point would be a trade-up or by drafting Penix 6th overall and praying he not only lives up to what he has been in college but also stays healthy. Otherwise it's going to have to wait at least a year.
Unless we want to entertain the possibility that they take someone like Nix in the second round and he actually turns into a stud.
More likely than not we'll be running it back again with a hobbled Dimes, Tyrod (or some other journeyman type), and maybe an occasional appearance from Cutlets.
DB: I hate to say this (being myself left-handed) but I don't like lefty pro QB's (as I do in baseball lol).
It's hard enough to supply a pro QB with a group of men who can catch the ball, but even harder for a lefty QB.
I know that might sound silly but it's not. Look how long it took to find a group for Tua.
Bob
Quote from: katkavage on January 08, 2024, 10:21:05 AMI'm not sure they won't have a chance at one of the three. I'm not sold that the Bears take Williams but trade that pick to Washington and with Washington's pick take Harrison. I don't see Arizona taking a QB or the Chargers. In that scenario they get one. Also the draft board might alter somewhat with the exception of Williams. Maybe someone rises while another falls. We shall see.
Getting one of the top 3 QBs at six will be a long shot (teams ahead of us may trade out to one of the many teams that need a QB). I think it would be prudent to assume the top-tier QBs are gone at 6 and plan accordingly. I mean if there is a miracle and a top QB prospect falls, it's easy enough to have a contingency plan if that happens, but it would make more sense to plan with the assumption that it will not happen.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 08, 2024, 10:26:33 AMDB: I hate to say this (being myself left-handed) but I don't like lefty pro QB's (as I do in baseball lol).
It's hard enough to supply a pro QB with a group of me who can catch the ball, but even harder for a lefty QB.
I know that might sound silly but it's not. Look how long it took to find a group for Tua.
Bob
PFF has drop rates for QB prospects
C. Williams- 3.9%
D. Maye- 8.2%
J. Daniels- 6.7%
M. Penix- 5.1%
B. Nix- 7.0%
I guess a 6. Good QB play from Tyrod allowed us to compete against good teams. The defense plays well most weeks and we will have decent draft capital to work with.
We could be the next Houston IF we find a QB. I think we have to wait until 2025 though.
Quote from: StompYouOT on January 08, 2024, 10:34:18 AMI guess a 6. Good QB play from Tyrod allowed us to compete against good teams. The defense plays well most weeks and we will have decent draft capital to work with.
We could be the next Houston IF we find a QB. I think we have to wait until 2025 though.
2025 looks like a significantly leaner QB class than this one. Obviously things can change, but the odds of it being comparable to this one are low. We'll likely need to be picking in the top three to feel good about our situation.
I put myself at a 3.
QB- Jones' health issues combined with a poor 2023 performance makes him unlikely to be the team's long term answer
Overall talent level- Bottom 5 in the league, potentially bottom 3
Since the trenches are very important-
O-line- Still a real mess with the need to add at least 2 starters and a swing tackle capable of starting
D-line- Need at least one more quality edge rusher and a replacement for Williams
Cap Space- The Giants are middle of the pack with about $17.5 million in effective cap space (the Giants may be able to boost this a bit).
No indication the team is parting ways with Ronnie Barnes, but at least there will be a new S/C coach
Coaching overall, they are replacing their two worst in BJ and their ST Coordinator, so there could be improvement there. Hitting on their O-line coach could give this team a real lift
Young talent in the pipeline- There is some in Hyatt, W. Robinson, Banks, and KT, but I would say it's a source of great optimism
So I am not seeing many reasons to be optimistic about this team's prospects.
That said, you never know what knock-it-out-of-the-park draft could drastically change this team's fortunes.
I'm a slightly generous 5.
Our three biggest issues for me are OL bar AT, DE/DT post Leo and QB.
Edge 2, CB and a WR1 would all be nice to have but I don't think upgrading any of them would have quite the same impact as better trench and QB play would give us.
We have quite a few young players with upside who have flashed at times this year but still too few established playmakers. Our depth is improving though and back-ups have contributed.
We generally play hard and compete against 'mid' teams but the talent deficit to eg Dallas, SF has been gargantuan. Coaching has been up and down but they never lost the team. Effort remained strong. This matters moving forward.
It would be interesting to retain all our thoughts and then revisit in May post FA/draft and again next season. Right now I could see us as anything between 5 and 10 wins next year and would not want to be try to be more precise.
The Giants right now are like their draft position, truly the sixth worst team in the NFL. Four of their six wins were against teams worse than them. The win yesterday against a horrific flailing Eagles team was nice, but it was just a meaningless win. I think to me what was obvious was once DeVito, and especially Taylor, who is one of the best back up QBs in the NFL, and better than the proclaimed starter, the team got better. Really after the debacle in Dallas, the only poor game was New Orleans, and I attribute much of the better performances to the QB play. That is why I truly feel by going back to the starter who the team has much money invested in, I cannot be optimistic.
I'm between 6 and 7. I like the front office and coaching staff but it's hard to go any higher without the right QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 11:35:12 AMI put myself at a 3.
QB- Jones' health issues combined with a poor 2023 performance makes him unlikely to be the team's long term answer
Overall talent level- Bottom 5 in the league, potentially bottom 3
Since the trenches are very important-
O-line- Still a real mess with the need to add at least 2 starters and a swing tackle capable of starting
D-line- Need at least one more quality edge rusher and a replacement for Williams
Cap Space- The Giants are middle of the pack with about $17.5 million in effective cap space (the Giants may be able to boost this a bit).
No indication the team is parting ways with Ronnie Barnes, but at least there will be a new S/C coach
Coaching overall, they are replacing their two worst in BJ and their ST Coordinator, so there could be improvement there. Hitting on their O-line coach could give this team a real lift
Young talent in the pipeline- There is some in Hyatt, W. Robinson, Banks, and KT, but I would say it's a source of great optimism
So I am not seeing many reasons to be optimistic about this team's prospects.
That said, you never know what knock-it-out-of-the-park draft could drastically change this team's fortunes.
Great post. I agree with every word.
Quote from: londonblue on January 08, 2024, 12:10:15 PMI'm a slightly generous 5.
Our three biggest issues for me are OL bar AT, DE/DT post Leo and QB.
Edge 2, CB and a WR1 would all be nice to have but I don't think upgrading any of them would have quite the same impact as better trench and QB play would give us.
We have quite a few young players with upside who have flashed at times this year but still too few established playmakers. Our depth is improving though and back-ups have contributed.
We generally play hard and compete against 'mid' teams but the talent deficit to eg Dallas, SF has been gargantuan. Coaching has been up and down but they never lost the team. Effort remained strong. This matters moving forward.
It would be interesting to retain all our thoughts and then revisit in May post FA/draft and again next season. Right now I could see us as anything between 5 and 10 wins next year and would not want to be try to be more precise.
I completely agree with your statement I highlighted above in boldface and this can be both a blessing and curse depending on how Schoen and Daboll manage their risk in either playing it conversative, let the kids develop, but may not do so at a pace to close the gap with the Eagles, Cowboys or 49ers. On the other hand, would they be willing to let potential or established talent leave the team, to free up cap space, and make some big name acquisitions in the offseason? Perhaps pull off a trade or two? Package a deal during the draft to get "their guy(s)" who will be impact players with a higher level of confidence?
The 1-10 score must be predicated on the GM and HC's offseason. It will start with the new coaches added to Daboll's staff. It will continue with how they handle their free agents. It will be defined by the 2024 draft. Finally, the perception will be rounded off by the new FA players they sign as well as those they resign already on the team.
But as to how I feel about the future of the Giants under Schoen and Daboll right now, I must admit I feel they are at the crossroads and next season is the one where they must start demonstrating synthesis of the strategy they sold the Mara and Tisch families, respectively, when they were given the job in 2022. I cannot quantify that at this time but to suggest that Daboll has used his learning curve in 2023 and is now a battled hardened head coach who will be expected to deliver an improved result from what has been achieved over this past season. To me, it means:
1. "Close the Gap" between the Giants and their key division rivals (i.e. Dallas and Philadelphia)
2. If you're going all-in for "your guy" at the QB position, GET YOUR GUY!!! Otherwise, improve the talent on your team across the board (NOTE: personally, I feel they need to fix and upgrade their offensive line, starting with the best available coach in the business to turn their fortunes around).
3. Analytics and Medical teams MUST continue to identify root and/or direct causes to injuries (NOTE: especially 1. non-contact injuries, 2. soft tissue injuries, 3. joint injuries) and relentlessly pursue corrective/preventive actions as well as guidance from the league's medical board and industry's best practices.
4. No sacred cows in the locker room. Performance-based evaluations that determine who is getting it done and who isn't (e.g. the old Parcells saying, "You don't get any medals for trying, only for results.").
Until players realize that their job DEPENDS on getting after Dak Prescott and Jalen Hurts, or blowing their opponent off the line, or making that extra effort that's going to break the will of their opponent, they will never close the gap with their divisional rivals which means they'll never finish any better than third in the division. If Washington manages to bring in a new head coach, drafts a big name QB, and begins to close their own gap in the division, the Giants may be headed for the cellar and we'll be rinsing and repeating the process with a new GM and Head Coach next year.
It's like the late Lou Saban's famous quotes, "We're at the crossroads, and there's no doubt about that! You can get it done. You can get it done! What's more, ya GOT to get it DONE! You're KILLING me, Whitey, you're KILLING me!"
I digress. But Daboll's at the crossroads and there's no doubting that.
Peace!
I'm an eternal optimist and think the future's bright! This was a 3-year building process and we have a great defensive foundation and some pretty good offensive players. Get a good ST coach and OL coach...fix the O-line once and for all and add a couple of more playmakers, and we're off to the big show :Giants: :nanner: :Giants:
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