I admit I watched no games this weekend (this was my turn to work at the hospital all weekend and way too busy to watch anything thing) I did record the game and plan to watch it later. I know we won cause someone there told me ~X( ~X(
Anyways, to me. It looks like we will most likely miss out on Maye, Williams and Daniels because of where we pick. So, WHAT is the problem with waiting until 2025 to draft our QB?
IMO we could use in the 1st round
1-EDGE to pair with Thibodeaux (Ojulari has been proven undependable)
2-WR we need a true #1 to go with Robinson and Hyatt
3-CB lets be honest, in todays NFL, its become a passing league AND there is no such thing as too many CBs
I agree we need a QB, but in no way are we a QB away from being good. We are stuck with Daniel Jones for one more year like it or not. And drafting any of the top 3 QBs in this draft doesn't guarantee he will not be a bust. In fact it seems odds favor a bust than a star.
In the 2nd round we can add RB, TE, RG and maybe a swing tackle?
I am against trading up because we need all the picks we can and like I said before...we are not one player away from being any good.
We should just roll with Jones, DeVito and some Vet QB in FA
If our team falters again next year (I would imagine more of the same) then our record would reflect that and that would give us a high pick and we could get our guy then. In the mean time...this draft we could plug in players in positions we desperately need.
Am I wrong.?
2025 class right now looks really weak compared to this years class. There isnt really a great Sophomore. And the ones who returned probably would have ranged from 7-12 in this years class.
If you wait until next year you're going to need to have a Panthers level season in order to get him because of how shallow that class is. There might be a great prospect that separates himself next season, there usually is, but in order to get that guy you're going to have to be truly and completely terrible and even though hope nobody else is worse or else trade multiple future first round picks to get a guy. This year they had a real shot of just getting into the top 4 and having the chance to get a really great prospect. They may well have a shot in the 2nd round to get a prospect as good as anybody currently slated to come out next season. So no, if they do need a new QB they should go get one this year if possible. That doesn't mean mortgage the farm to get Caleb Williams. That ship sailed with a 3 game winning streak.
I have resigned myself to the reality that the Giants may be stuck in QB hell, thanks to those meaningless wins. They will prove themselves bad enough not to be a contender and will struggle to even make the expanded playoff roster, but they will continue to win enough games that it will be extremely difficult to land an elite QB prospect.
Yeah 2025 class is nonexistent, we've been talking about this 2024 class for years now. There aren't classes like this often. The last one was the Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love, Hurts class and before that maybe 04 since there were multiple top end guys.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 12:22:11 PMYeah 2025 class is nonexistent, we've been talking about this 2024 class for years now. There aren't classes like this often. The last one was the Burrow, Tua, Herbert, Love, Hurts class and before that maybe 04 since there were multiple top end guys.
Jess,
Outside the top 3 (Williams, Maye, Daniels), are you seeing another elite QB prospect? I mean, Penix looks good, but his injury history is frightening. McCarthy isn't exactly lighting it up. Bo Nix, I hear many people saying he is a system QB who hasn't shown he has the potential to handle a more complex NFL caliber offense.
Is there someone outside those top 3 we should be looking at or targeting?
To answer the OP, the problem is simply that we need a good young QB very badly on this roster, and this is one of the more promising QB classes we have seen recently. Further, next year's class doesn't look great, and who is to say we'll be picking anywhere near the top 5 next year? We could easily have a 2022 type season where the ball bounces our way in a number of games and end up 8-9 or something and out of the running to even be in proximity for one of the top names.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 12:26:09 PMIs there someone outside those top 3 we should be looking at or targeting?
No, which is why I haven't been pinning my hopes on this draft all along. And I'm not even a fan of Daniels, so I'm not a believer in this idea of this being a "historic class".
I think the Giants should plug holes across the roster, restore the legacy through an elite defense, and then fix the QB position.
In order of priority, I'd like:
WR
DE / OLB
OL
CB
DT
RB
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 12:26:09 PMJess,
Outside the top 3 (Williams, Maye, Daniels), are you seeing another elite QB prospect? I mean, Penix looks good, but his injury history is frightening. McCarthy isn't exactly lighting it up. Bo Nix, I hear many people saying he is a system QB who hasn't shown he has the potential to handle a more complex NFL caliber offense.
Is there someone outside those top 3 we should be looking at or targeting?
Outside the 6 guys you listed it's really a crap shoot. There are guys with elite traits and high end play but are missing things. So you'd he taking them thinking you can coach the problems and let the elite traits takeover.
Best of the rest:
Quinn Ewers, if he declares he's a less Mobil Josh Allen with a cannon but his intermediate and short game need work. He was the no 1 overall recruit in 2021
Micheal pratt, if he had played in the SEC or BIG he'd be getting end of day 1/day 2 hype.
Cameron Ward, would be a top prospect if he played at a national program. He'll only get better with his mechanics but the decision making is what concerns me.
Jordan Travis, has a lot to love and is a gamer but the height is the big question mark otherwise he'd be talked about at the top.
The rest:
Spencer Rattler
Kedon Slovis
Sam Hartman
Devin Leary
Joe Milton
All these guys have 1 high end trait and will make a camp but it would be a Devito esq hill to climb
Most of the intriguing guys like Sanders, Mccall, Leonard, Dart, Jefferson etc are going back to school
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 12:39:00 PMNo, which is why I haven't been pinning my hopes on this draft all along. And I'm not even a fan of Daniels, so I'm not a believer in this idea of this being a "historic class".
I think the Giants should plug holes across the roster, restore the legacy through an elite defense, and then fix the QB position.
In order of priority, I'd like:
WR
DE / OLB
OL
CB
DT
RB
The problem with that is that unless you have a QB none of that matters. We have a solid defense now, we just can't score points.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 12:42:53 PMThe problem with that is that unless you have a QB none of that matters. We have a solid defense now, we just can't score points.
And conversely, unless you have solid pieces to support a QB, none of it matters. This team is not there yet.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 01:27:00 PMAnd conversely, unless you have solid pieces to support a QB, none of it matters. This team is not there yet.
This team is significantly further along than most teams that inherent a new Qb. Better than the Texans roster that got Stroud, better than the Bengals roster that got Burrow, Miami was a worse off when they got Tua and the list goes on. If we get a Qb1 this offseason we are a playoff team next year easily.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 02:37:32 PMThis team is significantly further along than most teams that inherent a new Qb. Better than the Texans roster that got Stroud, better than the Bengals roster that got Burrow, Miami was a worse off when they got Tua and the list goes on. If we get a Qb1 this offseason we are a playoff team next year easily.
Completely disagree. The Texans offense is more talented than ours. Significantly better WRs, better OL, comparable RB and TE. And the Bengals offense is WAY better than ours. Not sure how you could even compare the two.
We need a new quarterback this year, not next year.
For a long time I believed Jones could eventually be the guy if we just built a better team around him, but that ship has sailed. C.J. Stroud was drafted by a team just as bad as the Giants and still elevated them to the playoffs. Jones took four years to get there and doesn't show any signs that he'll be able to do it again.
So yeah, let's go get a quarterback while we have a relatively good class to pick from.
The only thing we know for sure is that whining about missed opportunity is not just a waste of time but can also prove fraudulent. Where QB is concerned, we must consider it almost a given that, like it or not, the plan is for Daniel Jones to be the Giants starting QB next season unless he is unable or proves to be incapable. Whatever level of confidence the staff may or may not have in DJ, the economic exigency of his cost this year will be determinant.
Personally, I think it unlikely that the Schoen/Daboll Org will use its first pick on a QB (unless they trade back) but might use one of its 2nd Rounders on a less challenging risk/reward type as a back-up and, you never know, bottled lightening. ::)
Although, I am not into guessing, I can't imagine that they won't do all that's possible with 2 of their first 4 picks and in FA as well to add a couple or more legit talents to the starting Oline. There can be no waiting there.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 02:37:32 PMThis team is significantly further along than most teams that inherent a new Qb. Better than the Texans roster that got Stroud, better than the Bengals roster that got Burrow, Miami was a worse off when they got Tua and the list goes on. If we get a Qb1 this offseason we are a playoff team next year easily.
These are not your father's Texans. Even with Tank Dell and Jimmy Ward on IR they have a stronger lineup than the Giants
(https://i.imgur.com/vVCP4GY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8H1WbuZ.png)
I fully expect the Giants to strike while the iron is hot. The Giants, imo, will 100% take a Qb if either of Williams, Maye, or Daniel's is available at pick 6. Next years QB class is not looking too hot compared to this years so waiting a year is not ideal. QB hell is what is staring the Giants in the face for years if they don't get a QB THIS year!!!
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 03:15:57 PMCompletely disagree. The Texans offense is more talented than ours. Significantly better WRs, better OL, comparable RB and TE. And the Bengals offense is WAY better than ours. Not sure how you could even compare the two.
I wasn't referring to just the offense but the team as a whole.
The Texans
Nico Collins, Noah brown, Robert woods at Wr and Devin Singletary at RB.. we have significantly better skills as Schultz their TE is good but we have 2 good TEs also. The Texans have a great LT just like we do but had issues at Ol all season too.
Bengals
Jamar Chase and Tee Higgins at Wr were clearly better but our team outside Burrow and the two wrs are better than the Bengals when Burrow was drafted.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 03:30:23 PMThese are not your father's Texans. Even with Tank Dell and Jimmy Ward on IR they have a stronger lineup than the Giants
(https://i.imgur.com/vVCP4GY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8H1WbuZ.png)
I know, I've followed the Texans all season. They have some talent but I wouldn't say they have more talent than we do team wide.
Their schedule did a ton for them even moreso than what our schedule did for us last season. They had a cupcake schedule outside the Ravens/Bengals.
https://www.houstontexans.com/schedule/
I hope we didn't win our way out of a top WR as well. This is an offense heavy draft so we're not getting a dominant defender and an OL at #6 isn't making this team better.
I will watch tonight's game and see if either McCarthy or Penix really impress. We know these draft boards change a lot by April/May. There's always some sliding up or down. Maybe we can get a QB in Day 2 or else someone else climbs up high enough to be worth picking at #6.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 03:30:23 PMThese are not your father's Texans. Even with Tank Dell and Jimmy Ward on IR they have a stronger lineup than the Giants
(https://i.imgur.com/vVCP4GY.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8H1WbuZ.png)
That Texans O-line still isn't great and I'm not sure they have better wide receivers than we do. Are Nico Collins and Tank Dell significantly better than Jalin Hyatt and Wan'dale Robinson? I think CJ Stroud is just significantly better than the guys we've had under center all year. A new QB who can process and create a vertical threat can make us look a lot better.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 08, 2024, 06:03:53 PMAre Nico Collins and Tank Dell significantly better than Jalin Hyatt and Wan'dale Robinson?
Yes, and it's not close.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 12:42:53 PMThe problem with that is that unless you have a QB none of that matters. We have a solid defense now, we just can't score points.
they can't score points because they can't block.
Quote from: coggs on January 08, 2024, 08:14:59 PMthey can't score points because they can't block.
Look around the NFL there is maybe 3 elite olines in the NFL. The Rest are either ok or hot garbage, and the biggest difference is whether they have a QB or not.
With the way Daboll is teetering, no. Let him show some improvement with the roster we've got. It would be bad if we drafted a QB and then have to fire Daboll and end up dictating the direction of the team based on a QB who could be a dud (like Daniel Jones).
We need to get the coach, QB, and GM on the same schedule so they're working together.
Quote from: AYM on January 08, 2024, 08:31:51 PMWith the way Daboll is teetering, no. Let him show some improvement with the roster we've got. It would be bad if we drafted a QB and then have to fire Daboll and end up dictating the direction of the team based on a QB who could be a dud (like Daniel Jones).
We need to get the coach, QB, and GM on the same schedule so they're working together.
That should have happened when they came in two years ago. And before that when Gettleman came aboard. It won't ever happen as long as Mara is the owner.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 08:30:08 PMLook around the NFL there is maybe 3 elite olines in the NFL. The Rest are either ok or hot garbage, and the biggest difference is whether they have a QB or not.
If you can build a line with even 3 above average dudes, you're ahead of the game. The Texans still only have two guys fitting that description according to PFF. They were, by no means, in better shape last year than we are now.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 08:30:08 PMLook around the NFL there is maybe 3 elite olines in the NFL. The Rest are either ok or hot garbage, and the biggest difference is whether they have a QB or not.
This line was historically bad. Allowed the 2nd most sacks since it became an official stat. And, that is with 3 QB's who can actually move. Not as if they had pure pocket passers who couldn't scramble.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 08, 2024, 08:30:08 PMLook around the NFL there is maybe 3 elite olines in the NFL. The Rest are either ok or hot garbage, and the biggest difference is whether they have a QB or not.
I think PFF Or someone did an analysis. To roughly combine their findings with your categories, there are actually 4 categories of OLs in the NFL: Elite, Ok, Hot Garbage, and the Giants. The Giants were
far below hot garbage.
Quote from: AYM on January 08, 2024, 09:07:59 PMI think PFF Or someone did an analysis. To roughly combine their findings with your categories, there are actually 4 categories of OLs in the NFL: Elite, Ok, Hot Garbage, and the Giants. The Giants were far below hot garbage.
I'm not saying they weren't hot garbage, but a new Oline Coach, a Couple FA pieces, and a healthy group will look significantly better next season as long they aren't trotting Jones back out there.
As bad as the line was, Taylor made it look serviceable the past two weeks even with a few sacks.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 08:04:12 PMYes, and it's not close.
They also have a better QB throwing them the ball though. If you swapped teams I imagine Hyatt/Robinson put up similar or better numbers. If you simply swapped QBs on each team...same deal in my opinion. Those guys in Houston are good, but these guys in NY are also good whenever they are given a chance to show it. Which this season was extremely rare.
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 09, 2024, 10:03:46 AMThey also have a better QB throwing them the ball though. If you swapped teams I imagine Hyatt/Robinson put up similar or better numbers. If you simply swapped QBs on each team...same deal in my opinion. Those guys in Houston are good, but these guys in NY are also good whenever they are given a chance to show it. Which this season was extremely rare.
Agree to disagree. Nico Collins missed 2 games and still put up 1,300 yards and 8 TDs this year. Robinson and Hyatt combined for less than 900 yards and 1 TD. They're not even remotely on Collins' level. Hell, they're not even as good as Dell, the rookie.
And you can't just pin their performance on subpar QB play. Garrett Wilson put up 1,000 yards with some of the worst QB play I've ever seen. DJ Moore had almost 1,400 yards and 8 TDs with a bottom-third QB.
Reality is that Robinson is a decent gadget player and could develop into solid slot WR, but he's not one yet. And Hyatt has a LONG way to go on basically every aspect of being an NFL WR, let alone a highly productive one.
Quote from: JT39 on January 08, 2024, 12:03:44 PM2025 class right now looks really weak compared to this years class. There isnt really a great Sophomore. And the ones who returned probably would have ranged from 7-12 in this years class.
Well, just because there looks to be a lot of good QBs in this years draft doesn't always mean success. History proves this.
Look at the 1999 draft: 5 QBs were taken in the fist round and that class looked DEEP
#1 Tim Couch
# 2 Donovan McNabb
# 3 Akili Smith
#11 Daunte Culpepper
#12 Cade McNown
We know how that played out.
Going forward. History has a lot of QBs drafted in the first round that have not panned out in the NFL. Here are just a few:
JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Matt Leinart, Robert Griffin III, Jake Locker, Johnny Manziel, Heath Shuler, Josh Rosen, Todd Marinovich, Dave Brown, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles, Marcus Mariota, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Kelly Stouffer, Todd Blackledge, and Mitchell Trubisky and that is a sample.
Again we are not a QB away from being any good.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 09, 2024, 11:48:48 PMWell, just because there looks to be a lot of good QBs in this years draft doesn't always mean success. History proves this.
Look at the 1999 draft: 5 QBs were taken in the fist round and that class looked DEEP
#1 Tim Couch
# 2 Donovan McNabb
# 3 Akili Smith
#11 Daunte Culpepper
#12 Cade McNown
We know how that played out.
Going forward. History has a lot of QBs drafted in the first round that have not panned out in the NFL. Here are just a few:
JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Matt Leinart, Robert Griffin III, Jake Locker, Johnny Manziel, Heath Shuler, Josh Rosen, Todd Marinovich, Dave Brown, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles, Marcus Mariota, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Kelly Stouffer, Todd Blackledge, and Mitchell Trubisky and that is a sample.
Again we are not a QB away from being any good.
Don't forget to add Daniel Jones to that list.
Quote from: brownelvis54 on January 09, 2024, 11:48:48 PMWell, just because there looks to be a lot of good QBs in this years draft doesn't always mean success. History proves this.
Look at the 1999 draft: 5 QBs were taken in the fist round and that class looked DEEP
#1 Tim Couch
# 2 Donovan McNabb
# 3 Akili Smith
#11 Daunte Culpepper
#12 Cade McNown
We know how that played out.
Going forward. History has a lot of QBs drafted in the first round that have not panned out in the NFL. Here are just a few:
JaMarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Matt Leinart, Robert Griffin III, Jake Locker, Johnny Manziel, Heath Shuler, Josh Rosen, Todd Marinovich, Dave Brown, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, Brady Quinn, Tim Tebow, EJ Manuel, Blake Bortles, Marcus Mariota, Josh Freeman, Mark Sanchez, Byron Leftwich, Rick Mirer, David Klingler, Andre Ware, Kelly Stouffer, Todd Blackledge, and Mitchell Trubisky and that is a sample.
Again we are not a QB away from being any good.
All this proves is that getting a franchise/elite QB in the draft involves a tremendous amount of good fortune. There's absolutely no way to ensure you're picking the right guy. There are failures and successes littered up and down the draft board. You can research and interview and test and evaluate until the final minute. Your chances would be just as good as if you throw a dart at the board.
My point is that if you have conviction and confidence in a guy. Pick him. It's not life or death. Stop worrying about how other players turned out. There is absolutely ZERO correlation. None.
Damn. I need some big words. PAINTER!!!!!!!! ;)
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 09, 2024, 11:40:13 AMAnd Hyatt has a LONG way to go on basically every aspect of being an NFL WR, let alone a highly productive one.
There should be no surprise that Hyatt needs some time to develop.
Will these coaches and player be able to accomplish this has some hope due to his catching ability and speed.
Quote from: RelaxTension on January 10, 2024, 07:55:31 AMThere should be no surprise that Hyatt needs some time to develop.
Will these coaches and player be able to accomplish this has some hope due to his catching ability and speed.
Get him a QB and watch what happens. Not even a special QB. Just something hovering around respectable.