Big Blue Huddle

From day one of his being hired to right now, what grade does Schoen deserve for his job performance as GM? Why?

The Jones contract and the Neal pick has him at a C. It could go much lower or higher depending on how he handles this critical off season.

I like Schoen as a man and I like his demeanor as a GM.  I have agreed with some of his moves and disagreed with others.  Far more importantly, some of his moves have proven to be mistakes, while others have been good.


Still, this is a results-oriented business.  Schoen took over a team that was 5th worst in the league (by virtue of their 5th overall draft slot) and two years later he has them as the 6th worst.  Frankly, I expected more progress.

He's a solid C

B-. If we could only keep players healthy he be a solid B. We are more talented today than we were when he was hired and left in cap hell.

I give him a "B". For the same reasons as Badger. Plus, keep in mind even though he was Beane's assistant GM in Buffalo. it's a big step to become the head man. As a first time GM, mistakes are going to be made and there will be some rough patches, but overall I like the direction the team is headed despite the record.

I also voted B, but I did it with some reservation. He's certainly no better than a B for me at this point. B- feels like the right grade, and I agree with the poster who said this offseason is critical and can move the grade a lot.

Can't be an "A" given the struggles this year and commitment (albeit manageable) to an injury-prone QB. I feel "C" is too harsh given we haven't seen his first draft class reach their 3rd season yet and he seems to have found significant contributors... but yet no true stars it seems. Reasonable minds could certainly differ.

He inherited a team in Cap hell, a QB not of his and his choice of HC choosing, a meddling owner, a team bereft of talent, and a predecessor who was The Grand Wizard of Ineptitude. The Wizard, and owner are responsible for paying Jones over $1MM per career turnovers(64), and injuries, not to mention all the open receivers he didn't see. Thus hindering/stalling Schoen's way forward. Before we grade him he should be allowed to have THE QB OF HIS CHOOSING. Not the Field General(Jones) who more resembles the fake General from Where Eagles Dare who was really a mere Corporal. He gets a grade of TBD. There is some talent in place. They play hard for Daboll. This team had no business winning three games with Tommy Cutlets as QB who's agent was right out of central casting. Look what Daboll was able to do with DeVito. Last year he squeezed the lemon with Jones, and Mara misinterpreted that. For that I say fongool to you John. My posts from the last two days have been salty at best. My apologies if I have offended anyone. I've been a die hard since 1965. The Giants in that time until now are about 55 games below .500. A historical losing franchise. The one constant is the Maras.

 I don't see how he can earn a B, if only for his dealings with Jones and that ridiculous contract. Also, his drafts haven't been outstanding and the Neal pic, as of now, would keep him at a C.

As was said he has done some good things, like getting Simmons for a song and a dance, and with the right DC, Simmons could be a force. His FAs have been hit and miss, missing on the WRs and hitting on LB.

He gets a 'C' from me.

- He gambled by not exercising Daniel Jones' 5th-year option. For the record, I would have done the same thing. He lost. He gave Jones an overinflated contract and it didn't work out. He had the foresight to leave himself an out after two years. He's going to need it.

- The team is no better than what he inherited but they were able to make it to the playoffs last season and win a game. It counts for something.

- His backup QBs were solid and won a few games.

My grade of C would be lower

BUT

How much control did he really have in his dealings with Daniel Jones and Barkley ??  How much interference from above ??

If no interference then he is a D minus for cap management.

DJ should have been free to make his own best deal around the league since we had right to match.  And that is not hindsight, it is based on ONE above average year and 4 sukko years of performance.

Barkley is and has been a diminishing asset.  Trade deadline last year was the time to move him.  Instead we can enjoy his bellyaching this off season regarding his salary.

If generational talent gets you ONE playoff appearance every 6 years then I pass.  Great talent way underused wisely on a bad team equals...well, take a look at us.

Truthfully an incomplete.

There are positives from the drafts and free agency and there are busts (with OL the gaping wound). There were good business decisions (not overpaying Saquon long term) and bad ones (overpaying DJ). The jury is still out on the HC. We are a combined 15-18-1. That feels like a C/C- but with so much uncertainty on where we will shake out next year that is not a confident grade.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 12:48:59 PMI like Schoen as a man and I like his demeanor as a GM.  I have agreed with some of his moves and disagreed with others.  Far more importantly, some of his moves have proven to be mistakes, while others have been good.


Still, this is a results-oriented business.  Schoen took over a team that was 5th worst in the league (by virtue of their 5th overall draft slot) and two years later he has them as the 6th worst.  Frankly, I expected more progress.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 12:48:59 PMI like Schoen as a man and I like his demeanor as a GM.  I have agreed with some of his moves and disagreed with others.  Far more importantly, some of his moves have proven to be mistakes, while others have been good.


Still, this is a results-oriented business.  Schoen took over a team that was 5th worst in the league (by virtue of their 5th overall draft slot) and two years later he has them as the 6th worst.  Frankly, I expected more progress.

One could also say he took a team that was the 5th worst and the following year won a playoff game.  After that, he lost his starting QB and backup for extended periods (i know they won a few with cutlets) and most of his OL. And, he took over a franchise with very little to spend.

I've mentioned this before.  Having a successful year last year probably set back the franchise.  So, I'm not sure how to evaluate just yet. But, I think the lack of progress statement is simplistic.

Quote from: nb587 on January 08, 2024, 03:14:06 PMOne could also say he took a team that was the 5th worst and the following year won a playoff game.  After that, he lost his starting QB and backup for extended periods (i know they won a few with cutlets) and most of his OL. And, he took over a franchise with very little to spend.

I've mentioned this before.  Having a successful year last year probably set back the franchise.  So, I'm not sure how to evaluate just yet. But, I think the lack of progress statement is simplistic.

Bill Parcells was thinking of your comment in bold when he famously said-  "You are what your record says you are"

His point was that the record is the ultimate arbitrator, and it can be dangerous when you go down the "yeah, but" road.  It's easy to talk yourself into thinking you are better than you are, that was Bill's warning.

He lets/let Mara's twisted logic about Jones and Barkley dominate his thinking

He need to step out and grow a set of brass ones- be his own man

If he lets Wink walk at Daboll's behest he is assuring both he and Daboll will go down in flames.  Neither to ever be a HC or GM again

I think it's still a bit early to grade Schoen. If I had to grade him at this point I don't think he's earned anything above a C and even that seems a bit generous.

Considering the big areas the GM is responsible for:

1. Hiring a HC. This is still incomplete as it's not clear to me if Daboll is the guy or not.

2. Finding a QB. The Jones contract is a negative. It remains to be seen what happens in the draft.

3. Building a roster. There are some positives (Ekereke, a few promising draft picks, and possibly the Leonard Williams trade), a few negatives (virtually every OL move, lack of run stoppers, and possibly Darren Waller). How the draft picks progress over the next year will help define Schoen's grade in this area. They need Thibs, Banks, JMS, and the receivers to level up to help offset the Evan Neal miss.

4. Cap management. So far it seems like he's done a reasonably good job here (despite the Jones contract), but it remains to be seen how the off-season plays out. If they panic and start overpaying free agents like the previous two GMs, then a decent cap can get ugly in a matter of weeks.

The ultimate measure of a GM is whether he wins or not. Schoen has one winning season and one losing season. If he has another losing season next year and hasn't drafted the next franchise QB, then the entire regime is going to look bad and people will rightly question its future.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 03:19:06 PMBill Parcells was thinking of your comment in bold when he famously said-  "You are what your record says you are"

His point was that the record is the ultimate arbitrator, and it can be dangerous when you go down the "yeah, but" road.  It's easy to talk yourself into thinking you are better than you are, that was Bill's warning.

The ironic part is if you applied Parcells' rule about taking the team's record at face value no matter what to the 2022 season, you actually overrated the team vastly.

I would argue that the team and its owner did exactly that, and in the end it hurt the organization.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 08, 2024, 03:28:37 PMI think it's still a bit early to grade Schoen. If I had to grade him at this point I don't think he's earned anything above a C and even that seems a bit generous.

Considering the big areas the GM is responsible for:

1. Hiring a HC. This is still incomplete as it's not clear to me if Daboll is the guy or not.

2. Finding a QB. The Jones contract is a negative. It remains to be seen what happens in the draft.

3. Building a roster. There are some positives (Ekereke, a few promising draft picks, and possibly the Leonard Williams trade), a few negatives (virtually every OL move, lack of run stoppers, and possibly Darren Waller). How the draft picks progress over the next year will help define Schoen's grade in this area. They need Thibs, Banks, JMS, and the receivers to level up to help offset the Evan Neal miss.

4. Cap management. So far it seems like he's done a reasonably good job here (despite the Jones contract), but it remains to be seen how the off-season plays out. If they panic and start overpaying free agents like the previous two GMs, then a decent cap can get ugly in a matter of weeks.

The ultimate measure of a GM is whether he wins or not. Schoen has one winning season and one losing season. If he has another losing season next year and hasn't drafted the next franchise QB, then the entire regime is going to look bad and people will rightly question its future.

Strong write-up. I can't really argue with any of it.

I'd add the Toney trade to the list of roster positives. That guy is a complete bum.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 03:32:38 PMThe ironic part is if you applied Parcells' rule about taking the team's record at face value no matter what to the 2022 season, you actually overrated the team vastly.

I would argue that the team and its owner did exactly that, and in the end it hurt the organization.

Jeff,

Parcells' quote was directed at people trying to talk about a team with a poor record, rather than talking down a team with a good record.

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 08, 2024, 03:44:47 PMJeff,

Parcells' quote was directed at people trying to talk about a team with a poor record, rather than talking down a team with a good record.

I understand that was the context under which he used it, but if its such a rock solid truism, it should reliably cut both ways in my opinion.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 03:49:23 PMI understand that was the context under which he used it, but if its such a rock solid truism, it should reliably cut both ways in my opinion.

The truism that Parcell's folksy comment is founded on is the endowment effect.  The endowment effect describes how people tend to value items that they own more highly than they would if they did not belong to them.

So, people with good records are rarely going to be talking down their team.   When it comes to the idea that you are as good as your record, that can be a more complex issue.  Often you are, sometimes you're not.

If he gets himself some solid scouts who can evaluate O line talent, he will soon get much better results.

with Wink resigning

 solid F

Would anyone change their grade if they used Mike Lombardi's GM criteria?


https://x.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1744776130031173894?s=20

Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 01:20:29 PMWould anyone change their grade if they used Mike Lombardi's GM criteria?


https://x.com/mlombardiNFL/status/1744776130031173894?s=20

Using that criteria, it would be 'inconclusive' for me. This is the end of the second year of his tenure. He was brought in to undo 10+ years of failure. Unless he had a crystal ball or the world's biggest rabbit's foot, expecting a huge turnaround in 2 years is not remotely realistic. Santa would drop his fat ass down my chimney first. And I don't have a chimney.

Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 08, 2024, 03:28:37 PMI think it's still a bit early to grade Schoen. If I had to grade him at this point I don't think he's earned anything above a C and even that seems a bit generous.

Considering the big areas the GM is responsible for:

1. Hiring a HC. This is still incomplete as it's not clear to me if Daboll is the guy or not.

2. Finding a QB. The Jones contract is a negative. It remains to be seen what happens in the draft.

3. Building a roster. There are some positives (Ekereke, a few promising draft picks, and possibly the Leonard Williams trade), a few negatives (virtually every OL move, lack of run stoppers, and possibly Darren Waller). How the draft picks progress over the next year will help define Schoen's grade in this area. They need Thibs, Banks, JMS, and the receivers to level up to help offset the Evan Neal miss.

4. Cap management. So far it seems like he's done a reasonably good job here (despite the Jones contract), but it remains to be seen how the off-season plays out. If they panic and start overpaying free agents like the previous two GMs, then a decent cap can get ugly in a matter of weeks.

The ultimate measure of a GM is whether he wins or not. Schoen has one winning season and one losing season. If he has another losing season next year and hasn't drafted the next franchise QB, then the entire regime is going to look bad and people will rightly question its future.

Nice summary. Schoen took over a bad, bad team with bad players, bad culture, and mired in cap-hell. Last season was a fluke as we caught other teams off guard early on (but they figured us out in later games), sprinkled with a heavy (and I mean heavy) dose of luck. A lot of fans thought it was a peek into a great future, but we got ahead of ourselves. However, no matter how you cut it, the turn around was always going to be a 3-year project just to become a playoff team...not win it all

He has changed the culture and brought technology up to the 21st century and beyond. He had precious little time in his first year to build a coaching staff and prepare for the draft. His drafting prowess showed in his second draft. He hasn't been building a house, but rather pouring the foundation. The building of the walls comes next, and in a few years he'll be putting shingles on the roof. You can't put shingles on a house with no roof yet!

We are adding depth to positions that were filled with street agents. He has made hard decisions to get the team in cap health vs. the cap hell that he inherited. He recognized that the program was built around 20th century successes and changed all that and is taking the team to the modern age using modern technology and using statistics to the fullest

Right now, we are all seeing the reality of the situation after seeing the team flail this season, while being a bit blinded with over-expectations, by the great (and unlikely) season we had last year, that in my opinion, was a fluke. And even though we basically sucked this year, we made adjustments and the team ended up showing us there's still hope. They were actually an exciting team to watch towards the end of the season, and all I have ever asked is that we play well enough to be entertaining and not be an embarrassment of an NFL team

I'm the eternal optimist and I proudly picked "A"