Not very competitive so far in the first half. Michigan can run at will.
Penix has not been impressive at all to this point. Had a wide open Odunze which would have been a touchdown but just flat out missed him. Wasn't even that long of a throw. Can't tell if it's nerves or if this is just the first time he has had to face a real defense this year.
Still time for him to get something going but as of right now I don't see him as helping his draft status versus where he was right before the start of this game. People like to see highly touted players make big plays in big games. We haven't seen that yet from him tonight. And it's not like he doesn't have weapons around him.
Yeah that was my take more or less from the little bit I saw. Definitely not a Day 1 pick if I'm picking, but he did get them down the field with a nice 4th down TD to make it 10-17. I will try to watch the entire second half.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 08:54:11 PMNot very competitive so far in the first half. Michigan can run at will.
Penix has not been impressive at all to this point. Had a wide open Odunze which would have been a touchdown but just flat out missed him. Wasn't even that long of a throw. Can't tell if it's nerves or if this is just the first time he has had to face a real defense this year.
Still time for him to get something going but as of right now I don't see him as helping his draft status versus where he was right before the start of this game. People like to see highly touted players make big plays in big games. We haven't seen that yet from him tonight. And it's not like he doesn't have weapons around him.
McCarthy is not helping himself either.
Quote from: StompYouOT on January 08, 2024, 09:34:18 PMYeah that was my take more or less from the little bit I saw. Definitely not a Day 1 pick if I'm picking, but he did get them down the field with a nice 4th down TD to make it 10-17. I will try to watch the entire second half.
Yup definitely. Washington made some adjustments and have made it a game now. Good job on their part to get back into it.
We talked about Penix but I'm not blown away by McCarthy either. Doesn't seem like a first round guy to me. And I'm not just basing that on today (although this is not some great D he's up against here).
I wouldn't mind one of these UMich RBs assuming we're moving on from Barkley. Edwards has had the bigger night of the two so far although I've always liked Corum.
Washington defense is surprising me a bit here. Thought they were just going to get steamrolled and they have definitely stepped it up to match Michigan.
This game should put to rest any talk of either of these QBs as being franchise-type QBs.
Penix has some of the worst footwork and accuracy while under pressure that I've ever seen.
And McCarthy is a 20-year-old game manager. Certainly not a difference maker in any respect.
Penix looks like a different guy than every other game I have seen him play this year. Last game he made every throw, this one he cannot get a completion over 8 yards.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 09:57:21 PMThis game should put to rest any talk of either of these QBs as being franchise-type QBs.
Penix has some of the worst footwork and accuracy while under pressure that I've ever seen.
And McCarthy is a 20-year-old game manager. Certainly not a difference maker in any respect.
DJ 2.0
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 08, 2024, 10:22:14 PMPenix looks like a different guy than every other game I have seen him play this year. Last game he made every throw, this one he cannot get a completion over 8 yards.
Pressure corrupts
Absolute Pressure corrupts absolutely
Both QBs look about as good as Jalen Hurts looked in a title game.
If Penix were more accurate this game, the Huskies would likely be winning.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 08, 2024, 10:22:14 PMPenix looks like a different guy than every other game I have seen him play this year. Last game he made every throw, this one he cannot get a completion over 8 yards.
Keep that guy far away from the Giants
Penix has to be on a team that can protect him. And with his injury history..no thanks. Makes way too off balance throws. He's an awful fit for the Giants.
McCarthy? I think he's just a guy..really like Harbaugh was at qb. Not terrible but neither dynamic.Game manager seems a perfect description.
Maybe Harbaugh will draft him as his caddie.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 09:40:29 PMYup definitely. Washington made some adjustments and have made it a game now. Good job on their part to get back into it.
We talked about Penix but I'm not blown away by McCarthy either. Doesn't seem like a first round guy to me. And I'm not just basing that on today (although this is not some great D he's up against here).
I wouldn't mind one of these UMich RBs assuming we're moving on from Barkley. Edwards has had the bigger night of the two so far although I've always liked Corum.
Give ne the Michigan DC, Odunze from Washington, Donovan Edwards from Michigan and the Ol coach from Michigan and I'd be happy. Michigan doesn't seem to ever have a ton of highly ranked oline draft prospects but always has the best or 2nd best oline in college football.
Quote from: sooners56 on January 08, 2024, 10:40:23 PMMy thoughts exactly!
I have to agree on the DJ 2.0 stuff, and I have heard that comparison made elsewhere multiple times (outside of this community). Clearly the guy has a more type A personality, but when you look at his actual game you can see a lot of similarities.
Either way definitely not a top 10 guy and possibly not even a first round guy.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 09, 2024, 05:53:07 AMGive ne the Michigan DC, Odunze from Washington, Donovan Edwards from Michigan and the Ol coach from Michigan and I'd be happy. Michigan doesn't seem to ever have a ton of highly ranked oline draft prospects but always has the best or 2nd best oline in college football.
They did have Taylor Lewan, but I agree - you're right. You don't see tons of big name O linemen coming out of there.
I like both RBs on Mich. I'd be happy if the Giants drafted either on day two or three. I don't particularly want to use one of our second rounders on a RB, because I think there are still good ones after that in just about every draft, but I could possibly be talked into it if we think we're getting a Breece Hall caliber stud.
I don't want either QB with our first round pick. I don't even want to trade down 5-10 spots and take one. McCarthy to me looks like he'll be an ok player but little more than that. Lower end to mediocre starter or a high end backup. Penix I think is risky, and while he does have ability, I hate that he wilted to do the degree that he did last night. I get that it's only one game, but it was by far the biggest game of his life. Tack on the myriad injuries and the lack of escapability and that is simply not a top 15 guy for me.
Either we get one of the big three QBs somehow (which I appreciate is now pretty low probability), or we don't draft a QB in the first few rounds this year. That would be my preference.
Michigan stayed true to their form of this year and dominated in the trenches. Congratulations to them for a great season.
McCarthy should stay another year. Too bad it for him it has to be there.
Couple things:
1. This is the first I've seen Penix play. Not impressed at all with how he handled pressure and how he actually threw the ball. Not gonna lie, I kinda hate his throwing motion- way too wristy.
2. Glad Michigan won, even though I hate UM- because this means Harbaugh is more likely to bolt and maybe Penn State will have better shots against UM in the future =)
3. It's weird hearing them talk about Washington coming to the Big Ten next year. Just....weird.
4. I know it won't happen, but wouldn't it be nice if a Big Ten team winning the national championship would shut the yammering pieholes up about how the SEC is all about speed and the Big Ten is all about plodding ahead. Such a tired, useless trope in college sports yappers.
I recorded the game but didn't stay up to watch it (I did watch each team's opening drive). From what I see on this thread, neither QB showed they should be a viable option for the Giants in round one. That is disappointing.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:44:41 AMI recorded the game but didn't stay up to watch it (I did watch each team's opening drive). From what I see on this thread, neither QB showed they should be a viable option for the Giants in round one. That is disappointing.
I watched some of it. Not a big college football fan so I don't have a frame of reference. I didn't see anything special from either of the QBs either but I'm also wise enough not to make a judgment from a single game, one way or the other. Body of work is important.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 09:44:41 AMI recorded the game but didn't stay up to watch it (I did watch each team's opening drive). From what I see on this thread, neither QB showed they should be a viable option for the Giants in round one. That is disappointing.
Penix had his worst performance that I've seen this year by a significant margin. Pressure played a part in it, but he got banged up as well (not dismissing it given he's got the well-tread injury history). Very disappointing performance. His downfield accuracy was not there.
JJ McCarthy... I don't know what to say. After half, it was basically a 7-point game for a bit, and over three series the run game for the Wolverine's died... but they still abandoned any semblance of a passing attack despite going 3-and-Out twice. McCarthy's legs were his best weapon during this time. I kept thinking that they won't even give him the ball to try and put this out of reach. Just don't know what to think about a kid who can't be featured. It's not a knock on him directly, but it's just tough to see anything noteworthy other than some athleticism.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 09, 2024, 05:53:07 AMMichigan doesn't seem to ever have a ton of highly ranked oline draft prospects but always has the best or 2nd best oline in college football.
J: I think it's because they have the best or 2nd best coaching staff in college football. Bob
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 09:57:21 PMThis game should put to rest any talk of either of these QBs as being franchise-type QBs.
Penix has some of the worst footwork and accuracy while under pressure that I've ever seen.
And McCarthy is a 20-year-old game manager. Certainly not a difference maker in any respect.
Stringer: Agree about Penix, Jr. Some guys have a "knack" (Mahomes) and most don't but find a way. He might "find a way" in the NFL but I wouldn't want to bet on it with a first-round pick.
McCarthy will remain a mystery unless he stays another year and we get to see how he does after losing half his team to the NFL.
Bob
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 09, 2024, 07:27:54 AMMcCarthy should stay another year. Too bad it for him it has to be there.
Ed: It's a quandary for McCarthy. He's likely to look worse next year after losing more than half of the offense to the NFL, but he might come out a better player. If he leaves now, I don't think he'll get good value for himself (i.e., go super-high in the draft) and that is assuming he HAS such value. I'd advise him to leave, on grounds that IMO there's at least one team desperate enough to take a pot-shot at a high-first-round QB (just hope it's not us). Do you recall the "bad old days" when Cincinnati kept repeatedly grasping at high-first QB's (with predictable bad results)? Bob
Here's my perspective on the game.
JJ McCarthy - i think it is really hard to judge him when he has a running game that is so good and a defense that is fantastic. A head coach in JH does not need to gamble when he has that and he simply does not need to let JJ throw it 35-40 times to win a game. He has great mechanics and is a natural leader. I can't tell you how good he is and I've seen every throw he's made. That makes me pause as well as a Giants pick. Certainly not in round 1 but very intriguing in round 2.
Michael Penix - Michigan has both a great pass rush and back 6-7 coverage scheme/players. Penix did not have consistent open WRs. He missed some wide open guys but they also dropped some passes.
OL - Michigan has 1 All American player in Zak Zinter who is out and a bunch of guys who will ply in NFL at some level. What it has is Fantastic unit integrity. That is how an OL should be. Not a collection of stars makes for a great OL.
Jesse Minter showed last night why he is the best coordinator in the country. Shut down some damn good teams in Washington, Bama and Ohio St.
Just to be really clear. Michigan has maybe only two 5 star players on their team compared to like 20 for both Bama and Georgia. What they have is IMHO the best coaching staff in the country in evaluating talent but also character and coaching/developing up their talent. Aidan Hutchinson was only a 3 star player and now a Pro Bowl player.
There was a lot of debate years ago that Jim Harbaugh was not a good head coach. How he has built this staff, coaches and players shows how good of a head coach he is. As Michigan fans if he now leaves for the NFL, we will simply say thank you. No begrudging of a decision to leave. He earned it.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 09, 2024, 09:34:52 AMCouple things:
1. This is the first I've seen Penix play. Not impressed at all with how he handled pressure and how he actually threw the ball. Not gonna lie, I kinda hate his throwing motion- way too wristy.
2. Glad Michigan won, even though I hate UM- because this means Harbaugh is more likely to bolt and maybe Penn State will have better shots against UM in the future =)
3. It's weird hearing them talk about Washington coming to the Big Ten next year. Just....weird.
4. I know it won't happen, but wouldn't it be nice if a Big Ten team winning the national championship would shut the yammering pieholes up about how the SEC is all about speed and the Big Ten is all about plodding ahead. Such a tired, useless trope in college sports yappers.
Last night Penix did himself no favors. But in the regular season, he looks like a superstar in the making. He remains calm and business like in the pocket (never gets the "deer in the headlights" look), and normally, his passes look like something out of a video game with perfect spirals and pinpoint accuracy, but last night he looked nothing like he normally does. It looked like he was dealing with a lot of pain and his game was way off. But like I said, it was his opportunity to show the world what he's got and he pulled a Dak...folding in the big game
It is weird that Washington will be in the B1G next year, but not as odd (to me anyway) as Stanford and Cal (Berkley) joining the ATLANTIC COAST Conference. In what world does Stanford and Berkley (a stones throw from the Pacific Ocean) align with the Atlantic coast????
I agree that it's nice to see any school win the national championship that isn't in the SEC. Hats off to Michigan and you're right, it won't shut the SEC fans up. They are almost as unbearable as Eagles' fans
Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 09, 2024, 09:34:52 AMGlad Michigan won, even though I hate UM- because this means Harbaugh is more likely to bolt and maybe Penn State will have better shots against UM in the future =)
I like how you think there. Also PSU gave them a tougher game than Washington did. They are in for a true awakening in the big 10 next year.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on January 09, 2024, 10:30:16 AMLast night Penix did himself no favors. But in the regular season, he looks like a superstar in the making. He remains calm and business like in the pocket (never gets the "deer in the headlights" look), and normally, his passes look like something out of a video game with perfect spirals and pinpoint accuracy, but last night he looked nothing like he normally does. It looked like he was dealing with a lot of pain and his game was way off. But like I said, it was his opportunity to show the world what he's got and he pulled a Dak...folding in the big game
It is weird that Washington will be in the B1G next year, but not as odd (to me anyway) as Stanford and Cal (Berkley) joining the ATLANTIC COAST Conference. In what world does Stanford and Berkley (a stones throw from the Pacific Ocean) align with the Atlantic coast????
I agree that it's nice to see any school win the national championship that isn't in the SEC. Hats off to Michigan and you're right, it won't shut the SEC fans up. They are almost as unbearable as Eagles' fans
Penix came up huge in the prior game. Of course, Texas didn't have a very good defense, while Michigan did. One would have to think that the conditions Penix faced last night were closer to NFL conditions than the prior game was.
Been telling you guys time after time. Be wary of Pac-12 QBs. They dont face any defense there.
Plus with Penix - I have said his flaws are very obvious that he cant get away with in the pros.
- not mobile
- iaccurate on intermediate routes
poor footwork
- poor mechanics.
As far McCarthy - he needs to stay and find another school where they will let him air it out. He gets few opportunities during games that every mistake is magnified. He was MUCH better than Penix last night. He is better than Jones cause he is better athlete and has a much better arm. Its a shame their OC has no clue how to call a game.
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:11:53 AMBeen telling you guys time after time. Be wary of Pac-12 QBs. They dont face any defense there.
Plus with Penix - I have said his flaws are very obvious that he cant get away with in the pros.
- not mobile
- iaccurate on intermediate routes
poor footwork
- poor mechanics.
As far McCarthy - he needs to stay and find another school where they will let him air it out. He gets few opportunities during games that every mistake is magnified. He was MUCH better than Penix last night. He is better than Jones cause he is better athlete and has a much better arm. Its a shame their OC has no clue how to call a game.
Which conferences face good defenses? SEC and Big 10?
Quote from: JT39 on January 09, 2024, 11:11:53 AMBeen telling you guys time after time. Be wary of Pac-12 QBs. They dont face any defense there.
Plus with Penix - I have said his flaws are very obvious that he cant get away with in the pros.
- not mobile
- iaccurate on intermediate routes
poor footwork
- poor mechanics.
As far McCarthy - he needs to stay and find another school where they will let him air it out. He gets few opportunities during games that every mistake is magnified. He was MUCH better than Penix last night. He is better than Jones cause he is better athlete and has a much better arm. Its a shame their OC has no clue how to call a game.
Your last sentence makes no sense.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 08, 2024, 10:27:52 PMPressure corrupts
Absolute Pressure corrupts absolutely
If any fan base should understand what pressure can do to an elite quarterback it's ours. In 2007 the Brady led Pats had one of the best offenses in NFL history but our pass rush made Brady look just like another guy. Penix Jr had no shot last night. No shame in that.
Quote from: madbadger on January 09, 2024, 04:08:14 PMIf any fan base should understand what pressure can do to an elite quarterback it's ours. In 2007 the Brady led Pats had one of the best offenses in NFL history but our pass rush made Brady look just like another guy. Penix Jr had no shot last night. No shame in that.
There is definitely no shame. The kid had an amazing season, and he definitely has an NFL future and potentially a very good or possibly even great one. I have always felt there were some red flags with him though (which we all know about and have discussed), and as a single data point I would not say last night was great. Even though I fully get that it was just one game, it's the only legitimately top flight defense he faced this year, and he came up small. And not every bad throw he made involved pressure. He sailed some balls way high when he had time. He seemed rattled and not up to the task last night.
I actually think the best situation for Penix is to get picked in the mid-late first round by a team that already has a legit offense in place but is ready to move on at the QB position. Minnesota comes to mind, although they're picking kind of high at 11th. Seattle might be another possibility. Maybe even the Lions as Goff only has one more year on his contract. I think if you stick him on a terrible offense like ours he'd struggle. He has very little to no escapability, and since he already has a major injury history he'd be at a lot of risk behind a line like ours.
And with all that 2 calls could have changed everything. The holding on the Adunze long con-pletion was bogus. What make it worse was an obvious holding call on Michigan's big gain. That's the brakes but I wouldn't make career calls off of this game.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2024, 04:19:16 PMThere is definitely no shame. The kid had an amazing season, and he definitely has an NFL future and potentially a very good or possibly even great one. I have always felt there were some red flags with him though (which we all know about and have discussed), and as a single data point I would not say last night was great. Even though I fully get that it was just one game, it's the only legitimately top flight defense he faced this year, and he came up small. And not every bad throw he made involved pressure. He sailed some balls way high when he had time. He seemed rattled and not up to the task last night.
I actually think the best situation for Penix is to get picked in the mid-late first round by a team that already has a legit offense in place but is ready to move on at the QB position. Minnesota comes to mind, although they're picking kind of high at 11th. Seattle might be another possibility. Maybe even the Lions as Goff only has one more year on his contract. I think if you stick him on a terrible offense like ours he'd struggle. He has very little to no escapability, and since he already has a major injury history he'd be at a lot of risk behind a line like ours.
I agree with almost all of what you have there, but how many of the top 3 QBs in this years draft played really well against top flight defenses this year?
The PAC 12 certainly is loaded with good defenses and the #1 guy looked pretty mediocre when the competition stepped up. Is the ACC loaded with defenses this year? I realize its the bigger body of work.
Really the LSU QB probably faced the best group of defenses of any of them all year.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2024, 04:28:07 PMI agree with almost all of what you have there, but how many of the top 3 QBs in this years draft played really well against top flight defenses this year?
The PAC 12 certainly is loaded with good defenses and the #1 guy looked pretty mediocre when the competition stepped up. Is the ACC loaded with defenses this year? I realize its the bigger body of work.
Really the LSU QB probably faced the best group of defenses of any of them all year.
Yeah fair point but Daniels definitely did. He was awesome in his game against Alabama. Not only did he not play badly, but he lit it up against them.
Fair point on the others though. Williams struggled big time in ND. He played pretty well in Oregon though (Penix got them at home and on a neutral), and Williams also played well against ND the year before and also well in Utah when they had a good defensive team.
You make a very fair point though. As I said in my post, I wasn't trying to shame Penix and acknowledge that he might have a great NFL future. I just think there are some heightened risk factors with him.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2024, 04:35:26 PMYeah fair point but Daniels definitely did. He was awesome in his game against Alabama. Not only did he not play badly, but he lit it up against them.
Fair point on the others though. Williams struggled big time in ND. He played pretty well in Oregon though (Penix got them at home and on a neutral), and Williams also played well against ND the year before and also well in Utah when they had a good defensive team.
You make a very fair point though. As I said in my post, I wasn't trying to shame Penix and acknowledge that he might have a great NFL future. I just think there are some heightened risk factors with him.
regardless of last night, even if he looked like Vince Young in a national title game, his injury history it too much for me. Maybe it's being a Giants fan this last decade or so that has caused me to be very quick to say no when it comes to that sort of issue.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2024, 04:40:11 PMregardless of last night, even if he looked like Vince Young in a national title game, his injury history it too much for me. Maybe it's being a Giants fan this last decade or so that has caused me to be very quick to say no when it comes to that sort of issue.
That's how I feel too. Until we can show that we are at least average at keeping guys healthy, I think the team would be asking for trouble to make a big investment in a guy with that substantial of an injury history. Especially after what we have gone through with Jones.
https://x.com/RealTannenbaum/status/1744738427659305085?s=20
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2024, 04:28:07 PMThe PAC 12 certainly is loaded with good defenses
I am not trying to be funny, but is this a misprint?
Quote from: JT39 on January 11, 2024, 09:34:40 AMI am not trying to be funny, but is this a misprint?
It was sarcasm.
Quote from: madbadger on January 09, 2024, 04:08:14 PMIf any fan base should understand what pressure can do to an elite quarterback it's ours. In 2007 the Brady led Pats had one of the best offenses in NFL history but our pass rush made Brady look just like another guy. Penix Jr had no shot last night. No shame in that.
Perfect example especially an interior pass rush like they demonstrated.