As I watched yesterday's dismantling of the once proud Eagles and watched a backup QB who was able to be aggressive and throw the ball down the field, I kept thinking about why now, and look, we do have some guys here who can play this game. Then on defense, we basically shut down the Eagles and their number 1 offensive unit.
We played aggressively, both on offense and defense, and we seemed to have guys who again, played the game well.
Now I'm not saying we are on a par with the Eagles and Dallas, but it sure seemed to me if we had a QB and a game plan that played aggressive football, we do seem to have guys who can play and maybe, with a new QB we could be competitive. Sure we need help on the OL, we need a true #1 WR and a good edge, but with our band of crazy characters, we may not be as bad as we thought we really were. AND this is from the eternal pessimist. With a good draft and a new QB and a few smart FAs, we could very well turn this mess into a real football team a lot quicker than I thought.
We're not awful. I'd say something like the 20th best team in the NFL. The big thing is we don't have a top QB. I think the right guy can do for us what Stroud did for Houston with the obvious caveat that the NFC East is not the AFC South.
Quote from: LennG on January 08, 2024, 08:58:05 PMWith a good draft and a new QB and a few smart FAs
That sounds like a lot. Not exactly a minor tweak or two.
The Giants are the sixth worst team in the league just like their draft position. Four of their six wins were against teams worse than they are. No way to sugar coat it. If you think they are better than their record you have to take the Giant blue sun glasses off.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 08, 2024, 09:09:43 PMWe're not awful. I'd say something like the 20th best team in the NFL. The big thing is we don't have a top QB. I think the right guy can do for us what Stroud did for Houston with the obvious caveat that the NFC East is not the AFC South.
I keep seeing this, and it's just not true.
1) We're not just a QB away. This team needs legit #1 and #2 options in the passing game, it needs 3 new starters out of 5 on the OL, and it needs to replace its most productive offensive player in Barkley. And that's just on offense. In terms of overall talent, there's no way this team is higher than #25.
2) Stroud and Stroud alone is not why the Texans took the next step. They brought in 6 above average starters - and several key role players - in their last 2 drafts to plug holes around Stroud. That's why they took the next step. They significantly improved the overall talent on all units, not just at QB.
Quote from: katkavage on January 08, 2024, 09:17:13 PMThe Giants are the sixth worst team in the league just like their draft position. Four of their six wins were against teams worse than they are. No way to sugar coat it. If you think they are better than their record you have to take the Giant blue sun glasses off.
I would argue that if anything they were worse than their record. Only one of their six wins was convincing. Many of their losses were blowouts. There was nothing good about this season. I think they're still a ways off from being a legitimately good team that scares anyone.
Clearly getting a QB like Stroud can change things quickly, but that's a big if. For every Stroud there are many more Bryce Youngs, Mitch Trubiskys, and Sam Darnolds.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 08, 2024, 09:10:47 PMThat sounds like a lot. Not exactly a minor tweak or two.
2 year rebuild this time?
My take is they were competitive with Tyrod and even looked good yesterday. If he was younger with time on his side I would feel good starting him Opening Day - we'd have some new pieces, maybe a true WR1 and then go from there. I just don't think his window matches our rebuild.
So I agree with the OP, while we need talent upgrades, good QB play goes a long, long way in today's league. Too bad we're back with DJ next year and a worse defense most likely.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 08, 2024, 09:23:21 PMI keep seeing this, and it's just not true.
1) We're not just a QB away. This team needs legit #1 and #2 options in the passing game, it needs 3 new starters out of 5 on the OL, and it needs to replace its most productive offensive player in Barkley. And that's just on offense. In terms of overall talent, there's no way this team is higher than #25.
2) Stroud and Stroud alone is not why the Texans took the next step. They brought in 6 above average starters - and several key role players - in their last 2 drafts to plug holes around Stroud. That's why they took the next step. They significantly improved the overall talent on all units, not just at QB.
The team as a whole is really mediocre right now. Maybe I overshot calling them #20, but there's maybe a handful of teams separating themselves on either side of the spectrum and then a bunch of mediocre teams. So the Giants are on the bad side of average, but I don't think they're that far off from being on the right side of it if, for no other reason, than so few teams are actually good.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 08, 2024, 10:27:46 PMThe team as a whole is really mediocre right now. Maybe I overshot calling them #20, but there's maybe a handful of teams separating themselves on either side of the spectrum and then a bunch of mediocre teams. So the Giants are on the bad side of average, but I don't think they're that far off from being on the right side of it if, for no other reason, than so few teams are actually good.
Besides Washington, the Pats, and Carolina, whom in the entire league can you confidently say we are better than?
Yup the Giants are THAT bad. A decade of sucking.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2024, 03:43:21 PMBesides Washington, the Pats, and Carolina, whom in the entire league can you confidently say we are better than?
I didn't say we were better than any particular team, but I did say is we have more talent on this team, than what was apparent thru most of the year.
And I also said, put the right type of QB in there and we CAN be competitive with many teams in the league. Obviously, we aren't on the Niners, Ravens, Eagles, and Dallas level, but again, with the right QB, I think we are every bit as good as the Broncos, the Saints, the Falcons, Chargers, Bears, and several other teams. We have been in QB hell for a few years now and maybe Kafka and crew have fine-tuned the offensive game plans to go with the limited talent we have there. Look what a Tyrod Taylor did with a much more aggressive game plan against a defense that is pretty good.
Again, we are what our record says we are but with a few decent components and the right QB, we could turn this around sooner than later.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2024, 03:43:21 PMBesides Washington, the Pats, and Carolina, who in the entire league can you confidently say we are a better team than?
No one really. Still, I don't blame anyone for rationalizing in the name of hope with logic suggesting that the losing can't last forever. That's true, isn't? I mean, like eventually they will have 2 winning seasons back-to-back, right?
Hey, this is a franchise which has played in 5 Super Bowls and won 4 (1986 & '90, 2007 & '11) so there can't be any suggestion that losing is in its DNA. However, we have at least once before seen Our Heroes go walkabout to a quite similar extent- actually, quite a bit worse. It started just about the time in 1970 that the NFL reshaped itself into Conference and Division format which as it happened began a stretch of just 2 (non-consecutive) winning seasons in and of the Giants next 13. That's right 2-13 compared to our current 2-9. Still, chilling as that may be, they are not related situations, and so no conclusions should be drawn, nor projections made.
But returning to the question- based on the results which are the established facts, the answer is Yes! And so, we are seeing changes once again about which it could be said, it's only the best teams which might prefer the status quo.
Cheers! "If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we all have a Merry Christmas" -Don Meredith, late and lamented.
I think in all honesty we're drafting about where we should be. All the teams drafting behind us are better, and all the teams drafting ahead of us are slightly worse. Slightly.
I don't know why everyone says the Giants need a total rebuild if they didn't ( miss a field goal against The Jets ), ( kicked the field goal at the end of the first half of The Bills game), and made the ( 2 point conversation in Rams game at the end )
We would have made the playoffs and these kind of posts would be non existant.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2024, 03:43:21 PMBesides Washington, the Pats, and Carolina, whom in the entire league can you confidently say we are better than?
The Chargers. The gave up by the beginning of December. The Giants never gave up.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 10, 2024, 08:40:40 AMThe Chargers. The gave up by the beginning of December. The Giants never gave up.
The Chargers lost Herbert, Mike Williams, and (for some of the season) Josh Palmer, who is a really good underrated receiver. They also got rid of their head coach, who was clearly a total disaster and almost any replacement is practically a guarantee to be at least a mild improvement.
I'm not sure I can agree that we're "clearly better" than they are with everyone healthy on both teams. I'd say that's debatable at best. Just my opinion obviously.
"You are what your record says you are"
Bill Parcells
Quote from: Painter on January 09, 2024, 05:43:49 PMNo one really. Still, I don't blame anyone for rationalizing in the name of hope with logic suggesting that the losing can't last forever. That's true, isn't? I mean, like eventually they will have 2 winning seasons back-to-back, right?
Hey, this is a franchise which has played in 5 Super Bowls and won 4 (1986 & '90, 2007 & '11) so there can't be any suggestion that losing is in its DNA. However, we have at least once before seen Our Heroes go walkabout to a quite similar extent- actually, quite a bit worse. It started just about the time in 1970 that the NFL reshaped itself into Conference and Division format which as it happened began a stretch of just 2 (non-consecutive) winning seasons in and of the Giants next 13. That's right 2-13 compared to our current 2-9. Still, chilling as that may be, they are not related situations, and so no conclusions should be drawn, nor projections made.
But returning to the question- based on the results which are the established facts, the answer is Yes! And so, we are seeing changes once again about which it could be said, it's only the best teams which might prefer the status quo.
Cheers!
"If ifs and buts were candy and nuts, we all have a Merry Christmas" -Don Meredith, late and lamented.
Larry, actually losing is in their DNA. As I've mentioned in several previous posts a couple of months ago I compiled a regular season W-L record since 1965, the year I became a fan. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but they are about 50-55 games under .500 during that span. Coaches, GM's, and players have come, and gone. The one constant is the Maras.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 10, 2024, 08:56:31 AMThe Chargers lost Herbert, Mike Williams, and (for some of the season) Josh Palmer, who is a really good underrated receiver. They also got rid of their head coach, who was clearly a total disaster and almost any replacement is practically a guarantee to be at least a mild improvement.
I'm not sure I can agree that we're "clearly better" than they are with everyone healthy on both teams. I'd say that's debatable at best. Just my opinion obviously.
If we played the Chargers in a neutral site tomorrow could you say with a straight face that we would lose? We lost our QB too. Adding and subtracting healthy players is just moving the goal posts.
Quote from: LennG on January 09, 2024, 04:50:00 PMI didn't say we were better than any particular team, but I did say is we have more talent on this team, than what was apparent thru most of the year.
And I also said, put the right type of QB in there and we CAN be competitive with many teams in the league. Obviously, we aren't on the Niners, Ravens, Eagles, and Dallas level, but again, with the right QB, I think we are every bit as good as the Broncos, the Saints, the Falcons, Chargers, Bears, and several other teams. We have been in QB hell for a few years now and maybe Kafka and crew have fine-tuned the offensive game plans to go with the limited talent we have there. Look what a Tyrod Taylor did with a much more aggressive game plan against a defense that is pretty good.
Again, we are what our record says we are but with a few decent components and the right QB, we could turn this around sooner than later.
I posted this same thought last week Lenn- that the Giants were the ascendant
team in the NFC East and basically got laughed out of town
With Wink all but gone now I dont know. He was the key coaching factor
We look like a walking joke now
Coaches wont come here
Free Agents will think twice
The guys we draft will have to hold their noses before the obligatory interview after being picked
What a mess.....Thanks a lot Daboll
I never said we were the ascending team, just I think we are a better team than what we showed all season. Again, please don't misunderstand what I am saying--we sure aren't a good team, I just think we do have some talent and with the right QB and a new scheme of things, we could be a very competitive team next year. We have people in positions that could make us competitive.
Yes, you are what your record says you are, but last year, we seemed to get all the bounces and we won more than we lost. This year many of those bounces went against us and we lost more than we won. We could just as easily be 8-9 maybe even 9-8. AND, we did lose our starting QB (not that that would have helped, but losing our best OLman that did hurt.
My take is this team has more (and younger) adequate/league average starters and back-ups than two years ago but still has insufficient high end playmakers on both sides of the ball to consistently compete with good teams.
I even think there is more to work with on our OL than 85 sacks/trash run game suggests as the combination of poor coaching, low confidence, hugely disruptive widespread injuries and resultant zero continuity created a snowball effect.
None of this means I think we are poised for glory or just a QB away from contending but I do think league average QB/OL play and a couple more game-impacting playmakers (from draft, FA or player development) could return us to the playoffs.
So, no IMO we are not necessarily destined be THAT bad next season if THAT is defined by our record & draft position (which is as Parcells would say the unarguable fact of who we showed ourselves to be this season!).
Quote from: LennG on January 10, 2024, 11:14:51 AMI never said we were the ascending team, just I think we are a better team than what we showed all season. Again, please don't misunderstand what I am saying--we sure aren't a good team, I just think we do have some talent and with the right QB and a new scheme of things, we could be a very competitive team next year. We have people in positions that could make us competitive.
Yes, you are what your record says you are, but last year, we seemed to get all the bounces and we won more than we lost. This year many of those bounces went against us and we lost more than we won. We could just as easily be 8-9 maybe even 9-8. AND, we did lose our starting QB (not that that would have helped, but losing our best OLman that did hurt.
I honestly feel we are on the rise and better than last years edition
If Wink had not departed no one would want to face the Giants in the Playoffs
right now
We are dangerous once again. The Eagles took one in the mouth. We outplayed the Rams the week before and Daboll decided to forgo the tie.
Basically the team right now and the one who started the year do not look like the same team.
We are creating turnovers, and hitting long plays. When Jones was the QB neither was happening at all.
Why Daboll decided this was a good time to create a rukkus is to me very sad.
I never thought he was a great coach despite the accolades. Now I'm appalled
Another problem is the return of the robotic Jones next year. I was fooled until I saw the difference with DeVito and Tyrod. Jones was dragging us down.
I remember the Cowboys making fun of him and thought how odd? They were right it turns out.
He has some good qualities and there maybe a team out there who thinks they can reform him. If so, send him to them please.
Perhaps Schoen and Daboll can backfill Wink and we get a top 3-4 QB in the draft. One can hope.
Despite the loss of Wink, there are some very good signs we are now relevent again.
Quote from: files58 on January 10, 2024, 09:14:53 AMLarry, actually losing is in their DNA. As I've mentioned in several previous posts a couple of months ago I compiled a regular season W-L record since 1965, the year I became a fan. I don't have the exact numbers in front of me, but they are about 50-55 games under .500 during that span. Coaches, GM's, and players have come, and gone. The one constant is the Maras.
Point made, Allan. DNA or Legacy, the Giants W/L record for the 20 years from 1965-1984 was 69 games below .500 with 3 ties and just 4 winning seasons. Certainly, we know that prior to 1979, Wellington Mara- the Duke/ HOF and all that- led the team a with a firm grip into abject failure.
Subsequently, in the Young/Parcells era, we finally enjoyed some sustained success, Championships, more wins than loses, and competitiveness over the next 25 years through the Coughlin era from which we seem to have since reverted to much earlier unhappy time without, sorry to say, the slightest insight as to the future.
Cheers!