https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1744723314650820791?s=20
I can't see Wink getting on his hands and knees and begging to stay and pleading for a second chance. His ego won't allow it
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 11:45:44 AMhttps://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1744723314650820791?s=20
This is what makes me think that a bunch of this is Wink's camp leaking info. Daboll and Co. aren't going to say he's resigned given... he really hasn't. Has to be coming from Wink. And for me that tracks with the leaks of friction between Daboll and Wink during the season. Really think the info trickling out over months saying he was going was to justify his departure and was from Wink.
This is going to be a game of chicken. Wink will want the ok to interview for other jobs without their consent as a condition of his resignation. Giants can't hire anyone until he officially resigns. If they do, he could make the case he was fired and therefore free to sign with anyone.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on January 09, 2024, 11:48:03 AMI can't see Wink getting on his hands and knees and begging to stay and pleading for a second chance. His ego won't allow it
If Wink is fired, he gets paid his salary this year. If he resigns, then he does not get his salary (and I think the Giants may have a say if he gets another NFL job). It's possible Wink floated the resigned story to push the Giants to let him go.
I think folks are over reaching here. Maybe Wink pushed or agreed to these changes willingly.
If he resigned, I highly doubt the Giants would stop him from taking another job. That's petty.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 09, 2024, 12:13:59 PMIf he resigned, I highly doubt the Giants would stop him from taking another job. That's petty.
I don't see how they could stop him if he resigns.
Quote from: Sem on January 09, 2024, 12:18:18 PMI don't see how they could stop him if he resigns.
They would have his rights in the event he resigns from his position, I believe. If they fired him, they wouldn't.
Quote from: Sem on January 09, 2024, 12:18:18 PMI don't see how they could stop him if he resigns.
It's no different than if a player quits the team. They wouldn't be free to sign with another team.
Quote from: Sem on January 09, 2024, 12:18:18 PMI don't see how they could stop him if he resigns.
His contract is through next season. If he resigns, he's still under contract unless the Giants release him.
https://x.com/DarrylSlater/status/1744767369740734707?s=20
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 12:28:58 PMHis contract is through next season. If he resigns, he's still under contract unless the Giants release him.
I hope he gets the Washington HC job. I'd like that. :ok:
What the Giants are worried about and what they will use every NFL rule to stop is Wink going down I-95 to the Eagles.
Why would Giants blow up defensive coaching when the O side and STs are the problem?
There are more problems on D than what you're seeing.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 09, 2024, 12:46:31 PMWhy would Giants blow up defensive coaching when the O side and STs are the problem?
Those coaching changes were the first ones made. Your question reads as if nothing was done about the offensive line and special teams.
We only see what goes on during the game and what's reported during the week. As fans, we think we know a lot more than we actually do.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 11:45:44 AMhttps://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1744723314650820791?s=20
So who is playing games now? I know it goes against the grain of almost a consensus here, but I think, based on what we know right now, that this reflects worse on Wink than Daboll.
https://x.com/toddsaunders/status/1744759889652507109?s=20
https://x.com/APTCan/status/1744791506936873352?s=20
Quote from: T200 on January 09, 2024, 01:13:15 PMThose coaching changes were the first ones made. Your question reads as if nothing was done about the offensive line and special teams.
We only see what goes on during the game and what's reported during the week. As fans, we think we know a lot more than we actually do.
Is OL really our only O problem? Have we developed our WRs, TEs, RBs and QBs sufficiently?
Quote from: Philosophers on January 09, 2024, 02:33:46 PMIs OL really our only O problem? Have we developed our WRs, TEs, RBs and QBs sufficiently?
Didn't mean to suggest that it was. The QB position has been a question mark since before Eli retired. The offensive line has been an issue since 2011. The skill positions are questionable talent-wise but we can't really assess whether they've been developed sufficiently or not because of the two moon-sized issues ahead of them.
My previous response to yours was, as I said, reading as if the only coaching changes made were on defense. Daboll fired coaches who were underperforming. Let's see how that works out.
Found this on a Giants group on Facebook
QuoteAll this hand-wringing and "The sky is falling" panicking, and acting as though Wink is the greatest defensive coordinator since Monte Kiffin or Buddy Ryan, is absurd. So are the comments that the Giants "did him wrong". Look at how this all played out:
When did you first hear about the rift? When Jay Glazer reported it on Thanksgiving weekend. Glazer's comment, "When I talk to people inside the organization..." is almost certainly BS. That's the usual way of deflecting the question of, "Jay, who was your source?"...saying it was some anonymous person "within the organization". It's also a way of allowing Glazer to say he didn't lie about the identity of his source, because Wink IS part of the organization.
The tip to Glazer was from Wink (or his rep), and it was timed to create the most chaos amongst the organization, the media, and the fan base: Thanksgiving weekend, one of the most heavily viewed weekends of the NFL season. Wink was unhappy for whatever reason, he and his reps let it be known publicly on the biggest non-playoff weekend of the season, and some of you are saying the Giants did WINK wrong???
At that point, Schoen, Daboll and Mara knew the split was inevitable. Regardless of what you think about Mara, do you realize how much combined NFL experience there is in those three minds? Do you honestly believe ANYTHING that happened next took them by surprise...even if any one of them says it did for public consumption?
They knew that any open feud with five games remaining would totally derail an already-dismal season, and likely cause locker room chaos...so Daboll went into damage control mode, with his various "The only thing Wink and I fight about is who gets the last slice of pizza" -type comments. But the split wasn't a question of IF, but WHEN. And the Giants hoped it wouldn't come before Black Friday. And it didn't.
But what to do now that the day of reckoning was here? Fire Wink along with the underperforming O-line and Special Teams coaches? The Giants brain trust knew Wink wants to be a Head Coach, but they also knew he crapped out on his interviews for that position last off-season. He might have to hook up with another team looking for a Defensive Coordinator. Firing Wink would enable him to hook up with any team in the NFL, particularly the one 90 miles down the New Jersey Turnpike that happens to have a Defensive Coordinator whose team is playing defense like they forgot how. Imagine the nightmare for the NYG game planning in 2024 if the DC who replaces Matt Patricia is the guy who is intimately familiar with the strengths and WEAKNESSES of almost every player on the Giants' roster.... TWICE a season!?!? And the reaction from the NYG fanbase would be an uproar.
So OF COURSE Daboll preempts any other Black Friday NYG media questions with "I expect both Kafka and Wink to be back next season".
TRANSLATION: THE NEW YORK GIANTS ARE NOT FIRING WINK, BUT WE WOULDN'T BE SAD IF HE RESIGNS.
And I've read comments that Daboll was "caught by surprise at Wink's resignation". Nonsense. Almost before the media mongrels finished reporting Daboll's "Kafka and Wink will be back" statement, the Giants fired the Wilkens brothers, their linebackers coach and Defensive Assistant coach... but, more importantly, Wink's most-trusted buddies on the staff. And with that one move, they assured that Wink would resign, avoiding the need to fire him and relinquish any control they have over an employee with one year remaining on his contract.
Before anyone calls this my "conspiracy theory", it isn't. Almost all of it is substantiated by the article linked to below. So put your box of Kleenex away and stop your sobbing over a guy who, in reality, attempted to sabotage his employer (and the team you happen to root for) for his own benefit.
I mentioned Buddy Ryan at the beginning of this. Buddy, father of twins Rex and Rob, was an extremely talented Defensive Coordinator who (like Wink) firmly believed he was due the status of being an NFL head coach...to the point where, as DC, he openly feuded with Bears Head Coach Mike Ditka, and privately worked to undermine him. Their well-documented feuds make the Daboll-Wink affair look like a lovers' spat. Buddy eventually got his wish, and was hired as Head Coach of...yes, those Philadelphia Eagles. His so-so record of 43–35–1 in five seasons included an 0–3 record in playoff games. Yet another parallel: In 1986, Buddy's Eagles allowed an NFL record 104 sacks, and they "achieved" that during a 16 game season, not 17. And you probably already know the team that is in 2nd place: the 2023 New York Football Giants with 85 sacks allowed, with a defense commandeered by Wink Martindale.
Here's the link to the article he mentioned.
https://heavy.com/sports/new-york-giants/wink-martindale-resignation-brian-daboll-contract/?fbclid=IwAR2wc336529bQxr9UI-CIjUvkniyzZduP5uqSHOJLYN-bVC22tg0IBvsTuY
Quote from: Philosophers on January 09, 2024, 12:46:31 PMWhy would Giants blow up defensive coaching when the O side and STs are the problem?
The Giants are #28 in Total Defense, #29 in Rushing Defense, #26 in scoring defenses, and #28 in sacks. They are, by every metric, a bottom 5 defense. To that end, I continue to be mystified by the notion the the defense isn't part of the problem.
It is probably a financial strategy.
https://x.com/giantinsider/status/1744815814400786886?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 03:25:44 PMhttps://x.com/giantinsider/status/1744815814400786886?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
Someone posted a pic of Martindale in an airport on his way to Sarasota.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 03:25:44 PMhttps://x.com/giantinsider/status/1744815814400786886?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
If true, that's a
very mature response to not getting what you want.
https://x.com/giantinsider/status/1744818671518699795?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ
I LOVED Wink's style of play, but MYSELF, I feel he has a system and does not have the horses to operate it. I really feel he never developed Thibs the way he should/could have. Yes, Thibs has his good days but he also disappears for just too many games. Thibs is our only real edge rusher and Wink would develop a better system to incorporate what Thibs does best. Same with Simmons. Seems he was mostly used as a situational player when he COULD be a force defense in the right system. Wink's guys had their moments, but they were few and far between for us to be successful.
https://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1744875494573564039?s=20
The Paul Schwartz article I just posted is well worth the read. Here are a couple of clips
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDcOP-dWwAAcnho?format=jpg&name=900x900)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GDcOP-jWkAAXkor?format=jpg&name=900x900)
Also, be mindful that most of what I have posted recently is likely being put out there by NYG.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:40:07 PMAlso, be mindful that most of what I have posted recently is likely being put out there by NYG.
Yesterday you were alluding to this making Daboll look bad. Still feel that way?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 09, 2024, 07:40:07 PMAlso, be mindful that most of what I have posted recently is likely being put out there by NYG.
The "all about collaboration" line feels very self serving to Daboll's camp. And makes sense they're now trying to push back against Wink's media efforts.
Wink was told in a meeting with Schoen and Daboll that that his two Asst brothers were being terminated
Wink stood up, offered some choice words, threatened to resign
Slammed the door
And then headed to Newark Airport for a flight to Sarasota where he was seen boarding a plane
Thats the long and short of it.
Apparently, Daboll thought Wink had built his own empire with the brothers help and felt he (Wink) had a direct channel to Mara and Schoen. Daboll wanted to destroy that little chatel and bring Wink more directly under his control
This is a mess. If Wink does resign formally he forfeits a 3 million dollar paycheck and cannot sign elsewhere for 1 yr without NY Giants release.
Its customary for coaches to remain in the building after a season to hold
performance reviews. Wink just took an Uber to Newark Liberty
Where are we? In limbo apparently
This is a crazy turn of events
Is there a link to confirm this?
https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 06:29:48 AMhttps://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/
Assuming this is true, I think the Giants knew exactly what they were doing when they fired Drew and Kevin Wilkins. The reaction of Wink was probably foreseeable. Best case scenario would've been that Wink swallows the pill, but he didn't do it.
This sounds a lot like what happend with Buddy Ryan when he worked for the Houston Oilers. At the end of the day, Wink will leave anyways, whether it's this or next year.
So as much as I like the style of D he runs, it's probably better to look forward and change what needs to be changed.
Equally, Kudos to Daboll for making sure this didn't leak during the season and keep it down as good as he was able to.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 10, 2024, 05:51:46 AMIs there a link to confirm this?
Those quotes are from the PS article I posted in the proceeding post
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 08:03:16 AMThose quotes are from the PS article I posted in the proceeding post
Rich,
After reading all of this I can't help but think some of this type of stuff is at least partially why Wink was pushed out in Baltimore.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 09, 2024, 12:52:01 PMThere are more problems on D than what you're seeing.
Agreed. For the most part, every decent team they played had no trouble moving the ball up and down the field.
Quote from: coggs on January 09, 2024, 07:56:55 PMYesterday you were alluding to this making Daboll look bad. Still feel that way?
I posted a new thread of all my thoughts on the issue (and the bigger picture) after having digested all of the news.
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 10, 2024, 07:48:43 AMAssuming this is true, I think the Giants knew exactly what they were doing when they fired Drew and Kevin Wilkins. The reaction of Wink was probably foreseeable. Best case scenario would've been that Wink swallows the pill, but he didn't do it.
This sounds a lot like what happend with Buddy Ryan when he worked for the Houston Oilers. At the end of the day, Wink will leave anyways, whether it's this or next year.
So as much as I like the style of D he runs, it's probably better to look forward and change what needs to be changed.
Equally, Kudos to Daboll for making sure this didn't leak during the season and keep it down as good as he was able to.
They may have planned to fire the Wilkins for a while, but wanted to speak to let him know first. May not have been some big conspiracy to get rid of Martindale. May have wanted to explain to him why they were making the move and hoping that he would understand. Then, he allegedly blew up, and that was it.
Dan Duggan
@DDuggan21
As Wink Watch hits Day 3, my guess is this gets resolved sooner than later despite how ugly it's gotten. Neither side benefits from a protracted stare down.
There has been maneuvering by both sides, but here's the bottom line: Wink doesn't want the Giants, the Giants don't want Wink.
Wink is repped by Jimmy Sexton, who is one of the most experienced/powerful agents in the game. The Giants have dealt with Sexton in the past and they'll deal with him again. The sides should be able to broker a deal that they can live with, and everyone can move on with their lives.
8:07 AM · Jan 10, 2024
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Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 10, 2024, 07:48:43 AMAssuming this is true, I think the Giants knew exactly what they were doing when they fired Drew and Kevin Wilkins. The reaction of Wink was probably foreseeable. Best case scenario would've been that Wink swallows the pill, but he didn't do it.
This sounds a lot like what happend with Buddy Ryan when he worked for the Houston Oilers. At the end of the day, Wink will leave anyways, whether it's this or next year.
So as much as I like the style of D he runs, it's probably better to look forward and change what needs to be changed.
Equally, Kudos to Daboll for making sure this didn't leak during the season and keep it down as good as he was able to.
Well at least Wink didn't punch Kafka in the head on national TV!
Rumor is that Wink told Daboll he can't run an offense on his way out of the interview and that they routinely couldn't get pas this D during practice.
https://x.com/MikeGarafolo/status/1745079689146757513?s=20
There is a picture of Wink at the Airport with his belongings in a giant backpack
Must be flying Spirit Airlines....thats what people do to avoid their draconian baggage fees
Pathetic
This guy coached his arse off and Daboll has nothing to show for 2 years of trying to jumpstart the leagues worst offense
Id hire Pierce as HC if the Raiders are dumb enough to give Jim Harbaugh a 2nd chance in the NFL. Like Daboll Harbaugh wants to be the King. NFL athletes are like herding cats. It did not work in SFO and wont in Vegas
If Schoen doesnt like it. Send him packing too before he lets McKinney walk the way he did Julian Love (now a Pro Bowl Saftey)
Shoen looks like a bright young GM....sometimes looks are deceiving
So far he is making Gettleman look good (well not as bad). It looks like he made a bad HC choice (hothead), its still time to fix that. As for Jones there must be some NFL team that likes him. He is an intriguing QB. Best legs in the game, Looks the part, has a cannon. Someone must think he can be salvaged.
Also Shoen needs to get the defensive free agents under contract before they follow Wink to whereever
It seems Daboll treats every Press interview like a trip to the Dentist.
No smiles, no information......a guy from the Belichick tree if there ever was one.
I like HCs who smile once in a while- Pete Carroll, Vince Lombardi, Bill Parcells come to mind
I met Bill in Pleasantville NY on the final day of training camp. Nicest guy in the world. Didnt know me from Adam but could not have been more gracious.
Pierce is not a smile a minute guy but I've seen him smile
There may have been some missteps by Daboll and the Giants but I'm 100% in their corner. I mean, this is the team I root for... better or worse. If I can continue to support them after the way they got rid of Coughlin after what he did for this franchise, I can certainly stick by them versus a guy who has had no success with the team and behaves like a petulant child when he doesn't get his way.
Quote from: TDToomer on January 10, 2024, 09:05:55 AMWell at least Wink didn't punch Kafka in the head on national TV!
:D =))
One of the things I have said for years (thinking a few will chime in here just like Pavlov's dogs) is that Mara is A LOT more involved then he tries to lead on. The same as Snyder, Jones, Davis, just less vocal and public about it. One of the things that was reported was Wink had the attitude that he was one of Mara's guys and he only has to report to ownership. IF this is true, then it is a huge problem and another example of why he and Tisch need to stay the F out of these decisions. Yes, hire Schoen as GM. Have to let Schoen hire the head coach. Let the head coach hire the assistants. If there are certain people Mara doesn't want as head coach, tell Schoen up front, "Do not hire that Coggs guy. There are some things about him that are not public, but if it ever gets out, we are screwed." Leave it at that. Schoen and Mara can say the same to Daboll regarding assistants. Can't have a Coordinator who thinks he is above the head coach and gm because he was hand-picked by the owner.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 09:29:58 AMOne of the things I have said for years (thinking a few will chime in here just like Pavlov's dogs) is that Mara is A LOT more involved then he tries to lead on. The same as Snyder, Jones, Davis, just less vocal and public about it. One of the things that was reported was Wink had the attitude that he was one of Mara's guys and he only has to report to ownership. IF this is true, then it is a huge problem and another example of why he and Tisch need to stay the F out of these decisions. Yes, hire Schoen as GM. Have to let Schoen hire the head coach. Let the head coach hire the assistants. If there are certain people Mara doesn't want as head coach, tell Schoen up front, "Do not hire that Coggs guy. There are some things about him that are not public, but if it ever gets out, we are screwed." Leave it at that. Schoen and Mara can say the same to Daboll regarding assistants. Can't have a Coordinator who thinks he is above the head coach and gm because he was hand-picked by the owner.
In some ways, I think the issue cuts both ways. There are the points you raise, which are sound. On the other hand, when you are managing well, you earn the respect of the people under you, and they don't even think of going to the owner because they are satisfied in the way they are being treated and heard.
The Stein Twitter account is fake, but that is still a funny comment =))
https://x.com/DanSchneierNFL/status/1745090588830048431?s=20
I suspect the owners may be among those that want things to be ironed out
https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095210021868017?s=20
https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095922688643080?s=20
Quote from: Philosophers on January 09, 2024, 12:46:31 PMWhy would Giants blow up defensive coaching when the O side and STs are the problem?
Daboll has control freak issues it seems
He could not tolerate a DC getting more credit than him
The fire the Brothers ploy to get Wink to resign fooled absolutely no one
the whole thing blew up in Daboll's face and diservidely so
On the DC replacement thing, I'd go after that guy who was Harbaugh's DC this year at Michigan. He does have NFL experience as the DBs coach of the Ravens
Not sure if he worked for Wink there
If Mara really wants Wink back there is always a way- Fire the non performing Daboll and bring back Wink as HC/DC.
Schoen should never have dragged along his buddy from the Bills in the 1st place
He should have organized a real search for the best available candidate
Man is this ever unexpected unwelcome drama or what?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 09:56:56 AMI suspect the owners may be among those that want things to be ironed out
https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095210021868017?s=20
https://x.com/RalphVacchiano/status/1745095922688643080?s=20
Bit too late for that. The theatrics of Wink's departure are too out there. And they're just setting themselves up for an in-season firing in 2024 when things go south between the two. Business is business and if Wink quits, then the Giants can block him as they see fit. But he's trying to force their hand to fire him so he can do whatever he wants. The Giants don't owe him anything.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on January 10, 2024, 10:00:20 AMBit too late for that. The theatrics of Wink's departure are too out there. And they're just setting themselves up for an in-season firing in 2024 when things go south between the two. Business is business and if Wink quits, then the Giants can block him as they see fit. But he's trying to force their hand to fire him so he can do whatever he wants. The Giants don't owe him anything.
From what I hear, one thing being reported is the Giants want some control over Wink's next destination. They don't want him to go down the Turnpike and go work for the Eagles.
To me, that is also damning. If you think so highly of Wink's ability as a DC that you fear him going to a rival, why didn't you make things work with him?
Quote from: TDToomer on January 10, 2024, 09:05:55 AMWell at least Wink didn't punch Kafka in the head on national TV!
Rumor is that Wink told Daboll he can't run an offense on his way out of the interview and that they routinely couldn't get pas this D during practice.
Well he did struggle as an offensive HC
With Barkley running for 1.7 yds half the time, dropping passes like greased pigs and Jones throwing short 99% of the time any offense would struggle
Then again Daboll kept those 2 guys out there all day long
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:02:41 AMFrom what I hear, one thing being reported is the Giants want some control over Wink's next destination. They don't want him to go down the Turnpike and go work for the Eagles.
To me, that is also damning. If you think so highly of Wink's ability as a DC that you fear him going to a rival, why didn't you make things work with him?
You are assuming they didn't try. Like in A Few Good Men,
Jessup: What do you think of Lt. Kendrick?
Markenson: Frankly Nathan I don't think my personal opinion of Kendrick matters.
Jessup: Personally, I think he is an XXXXXXX. BUT, he is a damn good officer and at the end of the day we see eye to eye on how to run a unit.
However, in this situation I do not see why the Giants are wrong for wanting to prevent him from going to a team. Doesnt seem like this is a case of they think he is a bad D Coordinator. He is under contract. They haven't fired him. He stormed out because they fired his friend. If Bobby Johnson wants to go to the Eagles, Mara would probably write him a glowing recommendation. At some point they can say he is being replaced due to job abandonment. Then, that is where the lawyers get involved about whether he can coach somewhere else next year.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:13:33 AMYou are assuming they didn't try. Like in A Few Good Men,
Jessup: What do you think of Lt. Kendrick?
Markenson: Frankly Nathan I don't think my personal opinion of Kendrick matters.
Jessup: Personally, I think he is an XXXXXXX. BUT, he is a damn good officer and at the end of the day we see eye to eye on how to run a unit.
In my professional lifetime, I have successfully managed some people who were very good at their jobs and who were an extreme challenge to manage. It can be done if you want to and you know how to. It usually requires giving up any semblance of ego.
If he really said "your offense stinks and could not get past us in practice"
on his way out the slamming door, I think that's hilarious
You could make a movie out of all of this
I will add one more piece to the puzzle: When Wink parted ways with Baltimore there was zero drama:
QuoteRavens coach John Harbaugh and his now-former defensive coordinator, Don "Wink" Martindale, had discussions over several days about a variety of topics, including Martindale's future with the organization. The expectation among most people with the team was that Martindale would be back for his fifth season leading the Ravens' defense. But when Harbaugh contacted Martindale while the head coach was at organizational meetings hosted in the Bahamas by Ravens owner Steve Bisciotti, it was made clear that a decision had to be made. The Ravens' 2021 season had been over for almost two weeks and Harbaugh needed his coaching staff in place.
The organization typically didn't want its top assistants to be on one-year, lame-duck deals. Martindale was under contract through the 2022 season, but that was it. The Ravens were willing to tack on a team option for 2023. Martindale, however, balked. He wasn't interested in giving the Ravens all the leverage to decide whether he was staying or going ahead of the 2023 season. He wanted to keep his options open.
Neither side budged, leading to a surprising divorce. Harbaugh put out a statement on a Friday night 12 days after the Ravens' season ended saying the team and Martindale were going in "separate directions."
"It was just kind of an opportunity to talk about where we were both going and what was best," Harbaugh said this week. "I think we both came to that decision together, I'd say. That's how I would like to look at it. I feel that way about it, and I think it's turning out great for him. Nothing but admiration for what he's doing."
https://theathletic.com/3690951/2022/10/14/baltimore-ravens-new-york-giants-wink-martindale/?source=emp_shared_article
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:02:41 AMFrom what I hear, one thing being reported is the Giants want some control over Wink's next destination. They don't want him to go down the Turnpike and go work for the Eagles.
To me, that is also damning. If you think so highly of Wink's ability as a DC that you fear him going to a rival, why didn't you make things work with him?
First, how is it damning to not want a talented coach to go to a division rival?
Second, how do you suggest the Giants "make things right" with the person who throws a tantrum, leaves the state, and doesn't return calls because the boss makes a change that was totally within his scope of responsibility to do?
I call it a tantrum because that's what toddlers and children do when they don't get their way. They are not emotionally intelligent to handle their feelings when they don't get their way. As the mature, responsible person, the best way to deal with them is to let them cool off. If they are coddled, they have the upperhand.
Wink is a 70-year-old child emotionally. The only way this works out favorably for him is if Schoen and Daboll show him grace. And that will make Wink look even worse.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:15:50 AMIn my professional lifetime, I have successfully managed some people who were very good at their jobs and who were an extreme challenge to manage. It can be done if you want to and you know how to. It usually requires giving up any semblance of ego.
Again, you are assuming this is all on Daboll to adjust. Not saying he gets to be a dictator. But, at what point can he say enough is enough? The whole game ball thing has been discussed. That could have been an acknowledgement that while we are not getting along, I can recognize the job you do and the effort you put in. Again, it was Martindale who stormed out of the meeting, went to Florida, and is not taking anyone's calls. How is Daboll and/or Schoen supposed to say, "Ok we have our differences. Let's put them aside or the good of the team.." if Martindale won't speak to him?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:23:06 AMI will add one more piece to the puzzle: When Wink parted ways with Baltimore there was zero drama:
https://theathletic.com/3690951/2022/10/14/baltimore-ravens-new-york-giants-wink-martindale/?source=emp_shared_article
There was zero "public" drama. But it still boils down to this:
QuoteHe wasn't interested in giving the Ravens all the leverage to decide whether he was staying or going ahead of the 2023 season. He wanted to keep his options open.
A little history repeating itself, if you ask me.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:29:08 AMFirst, how is it damning to not want a talented coach to go to a division rival?
Second, how do you suggest the Giants "make things right" with the person who throws a tantrum, leaves the state, and doesn't return calls because the boss makes a change that was totally within his scope of responsibility to do?
I call it a tantrum because that's what toddlers and children do when they don't get their way. They are not emotionally intelligent to handle their feelings when they don't get their way. As the mature, responsible person, the best way to deal with them is to let them cool off. If they are coddled, they have the upperhand.
Wink is a 70-year-old child emotionally. The only way this works out favorably for him is if Schoen and Daboll show him grace. And that will make Wink look even worse.
Tim,
Here's the catch, if Wink is as bad as you say he is, the Giants should be wanting him to go to Eagles and disrupt things.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:30:25 AMAgain, you are assuming this is all on Daboll to adjust. Not saying he gets to be a dictator. But, at what point can he say enough is enough? The whole game ball thing has been discussed. That could have been an acknowledgement that while we are not getting along, I can recognize the job you do and the effort you put in. Again, it was Martindale who stormed out of the meeting, went to Florida, and is not taking anyone's calls. How is Daboll and/or Schoen supposed to say, "Ok we have our differences. Let's put them aside or the good of the team.." if Martindale won't speak to him?
and
@T200 Look, I have had people get emotional and curse me out. Unfortunately, it can happen. For me, it didn't mean an automatic end. It's never that simple. You need to consider if what the person contributes outweighs the bad. You need to consider if there is a different approach that will prevent future blowups. You need to consider the balance of the good and the bad. I have found over the decades that the biggest challenge as a manager is to let ego and/or emotions get the better of me. It's about keeping an eye on the big picture and the primary goals. If the person under you can help make that happen, you live with the headaches.
Can we send Daboll to the Eagles instead?
As the new HC, after Siriani gets his arse handed to him in TB Monday night?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:34:02 AMTim,
Here's the catch, if Wink is as bad as you say he is, the Giants should be wanting him to go to Eagles and disrupt things.
That's called enabling bad behavior. Don't feed tantrums. Let them fizzle out. Mature heads will prevail.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:40:54 AMThat's called enabling bad behavior. Don't feed tantrums. Let them fizzle out. Mature heads will prevail.
Tim,
A coordinator either helps a team win and set a good culture, or they don't. If they don't, you should want them working for a rival; if they do, then you want them working for you. I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:37:18 AMand @T200
Look, I have had people get emotional and curse me out. Unfortunately, it can happen. For me, it didn't mean an automatic end. It's never that simple. You need to consider if what the person contributes outweighs the bad. You need to consider if there is a different approach that will prevent future blowups. You need to consider the balance of the good and the bad. I have found over the decades that the biggest challenge as a manager is to let ego and/or emotions get the better of me. It's about keeping an eye on the big picture and the primary goals. If the person under you can help make that happen, you live with the headaches.
Did the people curse you out and disappear for a period of time? I am not saying taking an extended lunch or took the rest of the day to cool off. Secondly, you are comparing a regular job to what these guys do. Not the same thing.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:37:18 AMand @T200
Look, I have had people get emotional and curse me out. Unfortunately, it can happen. For me, it didn't mean an automatic end. It's never that simple. You need to consider if what the person contributes outweighs the bad. You need to consider if there is a different approach that will prevent future blowups. You need to consider the balance of the good and the bad. I have found over the decades that the biggest challenge as a manager is to let ego and/or emotions get the better of me. It's about keeping an eye on the big picture and the primary goals. If the person under you can help make that happen, you live with the headaches.
Hasn't Daboll exhibited everything I highlighted?
- He specifically said he expected Kafka and Wink to be back
- He did not fire Wink
- Schoen and Daboll have reached out to Wink
You're Team Wink ... I'm Team Daboll. As a leader and manager, styles and methods vary but one thing that cannot be tolerated under any circumstances is insubordination. If Wink truly felt he was disrespected and doesn't want to be in Blue, there isn't enough money that would make me stay in an untenable situation. If I have to sit out a year before I get another opportunity, so be it. But, as I have said multiple times already, Wink is emotionally immature.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:42:54 AMTim,
A coordinator either helps a team win and set a good culture, or they don't. If they don't, you should want them working for a rival; if they do, then you want them working for you. I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
Rich,
You don't get to set the criteria and make it final. There are other options, my friend.
Quote from: coggs on January 10, 2024, 10:45:37 AMDid the people curse you out and disappear for a period of time? I am not saying taking an extended lunch or took the rest of the day to cool off. Secondly, you are comparing a regular job to what these guys do. Not the same thing.
If I were in Schoen's (or Daboll's) position, I would know that I made a move that I knew would set Wink off. I fired his righthand man and his brother without so much as talking to him prior to the firing (especially as I teed up this move by publicly announcing that I thought Wink would stay and how Wink said the Giants were a destination job). Frankly, if I wanted Wink to curse me out, that would be how I would do it.
Also, Wink has an agent. So it's not like the team can't communicate with Wink if they want or need to, it simply needs to be done through his agent.
Finally, jobs are jobs, and people are people. I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments. So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.
Thought I read tha
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:52:47 AMIf I were in Schoen's (or Daboll's) position, I would know that I made a move that I knew would set Wink off. I fired his righthand man and his brother without so much as talking to him prior to the firing (especially as I teed up this move by publicly announcing that I thought Wink would stay and how Wink said the Giants were a destination job). Frankly, if I wanted Wink to curse me out, that would be how I would do it.
Also, Wink has an agent. So it's not like the team can't communicate with Wink if they want or need to, it simply needs to be done through his agent.
Finally, jobs are jobs, and people are people. I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments. So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.
Thought I read they did tell him prior to doing it.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:51:58 AMRich,
You don't get to set the criteria and make it final. There are other options, my friend.
Tim,
I think that sort of goes to my point. Every option and criteria should be set in the context of your ultimate goal, which is to have a consistently good team that wins as many championships as possible. If you have other concerns, you are interfering with what should be the primary (and really only) goal.
That said, I wouldn't use this position to justify management mistreating people.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:52:47 AMIf I were in Schoen's (or Daboll's) position, I would know that I made a move that I knew would set Wink off. I fired his righthand man and his brother without so much as talking to him prior to the firing (especially as I teed up this move by publicly announcing that I thought Wink would stay and how Wink said the Giants were a destination job). Frankly, if I wanted Wink to curse me out, that would be how I would do it.
Also, Wink has an agent. So it's not like the team can't communicate with Wink if they want or need to, it simply needs to be done through his agent.
Finally, jobs are jobs, and people are people. I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments. So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.
But Rich, you agree with me, that Wink's behavior is all BUT professional?
Equally, when Wink left Baltimore, it's not like they had massive defensive issues post his departure. They are one of the best if not the best team in the league atm.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 10:55:12 AMThought I read they did tell him prior to doing it.
I had not heard that. Can you let me know where you did? I am always willing to take in new information and adjust my position accordingly
Quote from: GordonGekko80 on January 10, 2024, 10:56:28 AMBut Rich, you agree with me, that Wink's behavior is all BUT professional?
Equally, when Wink left Baltimore, it's not like they had massive defensive issues post his departure. They are one of the best if not the best team in the league atm.
I do agree, I just think there is a bigger picture that should be the focus and I also don't know how much Wink's reactions are the result of moves the Giants made (that were improper)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:55:41 AMTim,
I think that sort of goes to my point. Every option and criteria should be set in the context of your ultimate goal, which is to have a consistently good team that wins as many championships as possible. If you have other concerns, you are interfering with what should be the primary (and really only) goal.
That said, I wouldn't use this position to justify management mistreating people.
Seems like you're dismissing Wink's insubordination and disrespect of his boss and instead making him the victim by saying he was mistreated by management.
I don't think I have anything else to add. We certainly don't see this issue the same way. :surrender:
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:58:20 AMI do agree, I just think there is a bigger picture that should be the focus and I also don't know how much Wink's reactions are the result of moves the Giants made (that were improper)
I think they know Wink's potential and quality.
But they realized that Wink's power games were heading in a wrong and dangerous direction. So they had to take action. The issue is just the fact that Wink wasn't having any of this.
I think one thing's clear: Wink will be leaving. Whether it's this or next offseason is probably the question. My bets are on this offseason though.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 11:01:01 AMSeems like you're dismissing Wink's insubordination and disrespect of his boss and instead making him the victim by saying he was mistreated by management.
I don't think I have anything else to add. We certainly don't see this issue the same way. :surrender:
Tim,
We may not agree, but I enjoyed the discussion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:57:03 AMI had not heard that. Can you let me know where you did? I am always willing to take in new information and adjust my position accordingly
Its from the Schwartz article:
"Daboll mentioned the dismissals of special teams coach Thomas McGaughey and offensive line coach Bobby Johnson.
There is no secret how close Daboll is with Johnson and this one was a tough one for Daboll, but he felt it was necessary for the betterment of the team moving forward.
Daboll told Martindale he wanted him to stay but that he was going to fire the Wilkins brothers.Martindale brought the Wilkinses with him to the Giants from the Ravens.
On the sideline, it is Drew Wilkins helping Martindale with the personnel groupings and directing traffic for him.
Drew Wilkins helps Martindale devise the defensive schemes.
Martindale, angered by this news, cursed out Daboll, said his piece, got up, slammed the door and walked out of the building."
https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Not sure we are talking about the same thing. My comprehension of it is that that Daboll told Wink he was firing those brothers but wanted Wink back. Wink cursed him out and left.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 11:26:31 AMIts from the Schwartz article:
"Daboll mentioned the dismissals of special teams coach Thomas McGaughey and offensive line coach Bobby Johnson.
There is no secret how close Daboll is with Johnson and this one was a tough one for Daboll, but he felt it was necessary for the betterment of the team moving forward.
Daboll told Martindale he wanted him to stay but that he was going to fire the Wilkins brothers.
Martindale brought the Wilkinses with him to the Giants from the Ravens.
On the sideline, it is Drew Wilkins helping Martindale with the personnel groupings and directing traffic for him.
Drew Wilkins helps Martindale devise the defensive schemes.
Martindale, angered by this news, cursed out Daboll, said his piece, got up, slammed the door and walked out of the building."
https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Not sure we are talking about the same thing. My comprehension of it is that that Daboll told Wink he was firing those brothers but wanted Wink back. Wink cursed him out and left.
So Daboll made the decision to fire Wink's key assistant without consulting him prior. One could feel pretty confident Wink would not take kindly to that.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 11:26:31 AMIts from the Schwartz article:
"Daboll mentioned the dismissals of special teams coach Thomas McGaughey and offensive line coach Bobby Johnson.
There is no secret how close Daboll is with Johnson and this one was a tough one for Daboll, but he felt it was necessary for the betterment of the team moving forward.
Daboll told Martindale he wanted him to stay but that he was going to fire the Wilkins brothers.
Martindale brought the Wilkinses with him to the Giants from the Ravens.
On the sideline, it is Drew Wilkins helping Martindale with the personnel groupings and directing traffic for him.
Drew Wilkins helps Martindale devise the defensive schemes.
Martindale, angered by this news, cursed out Daboll, said his piece, got up, slammed the door and walked out of the building."
https://nypost.com/2024/01/09/sports/wink-martindale-cursed-out-giants-brian-daboll-after-firings/?utm_campaign=iphone_nyp&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social
Not sure we are talking about the same thing. My comprehension of it is that that Daboll told Wink he was firing those brothers but wanted Wink back. Wink cursed him out and left.
I'm pretty confident in saying that's what *almost* everyone's comprehension of it is.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:52:47 AMIf I were in Schoen's (or Daboll's) position, I would know that I made a move that I knew would set Wink off. I fired his righthand man and his brother without so much as talking to him prior to the firing (especially as I teed up this move by publicly announcing that I thought Wink would stay and how Wink said the Giants were a destination job). Frankly, if I wanted Wink to curse me out, that would be how I would do it.
Also, Wink has an agent. So it's not like the team can't communicate with Wink if they want or need to, it simply needs to be done through his agent.
Finally, jobs are jobs, and people are people. I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments. So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.
Disagree completely. "jobs are jobs and people are people" is not a valid argument. Even within my own profession, jobs are VERY different depending on the circumstances. That line of thinking makes you sound like one of these owners who buys a team and is going to run a team the same way he runs his cookie company. It is a completely different dynamic. The players and coaches are not only "labor" but they ARE the product. Not the same thing as the people who run the machinery at a Nabisco factory.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 11:34:32 AMSo Daboll made the decision to hire Wink's key assistant without consulting him prior. One could feel pretty confident Wink would not take kindly to that.
I don't follow you. I didn't see any discussion of future hirings.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 11:45:50 AMI don't follow you. I didn't see any discussion of future hirings.
I think he meant "fire". Still doesn't justify Wink's unprofessional, disrespectful, and immature behavior.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 11:45:50 AMI don't follow you. I didn't see any discussion of future hirings.
Normally, after the season, teams have meetings about who to keep and who to let go, starting with the coaching staff.
Normally, the HC (often with consultation with the GM) decides which coordinators stay and which go. Then, the HC would have meetings with the coordinator to decide which position coaches to keep and which to let go (the coordinator, as the immediate supervisor, has the most knowledge about the position coaches).
To fire a defensive assistant without consulting with Wink is unusual and disrespectful to Wink's position (just as an HC position requires respect, so do coordinators). This is especially true when it comes to the defensive side of the ball which Daboll has limited experience with and likely spent less time with.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 11:50:33 AMI think he meant "fire". Still doesn't justify Wink's unprofessional, disrespectful, and immature behavior.
That article is recounting a timeline of about 24 hours. We have no idea what conversations Daboll had with Wink regarding these to coaches prior to that. If they were looking to fire them, I would be willing to be a lot of money that their performance and/or other issues were discussed during the season. WE don't know that I am correct, but I don't think we should assume that it came out of the blue and Wink had no idea that these guys were in the crosshairs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 11:54:54 AMNormally, after the season, teams have meetings about who to keep and who to let go, starting with the coaching staff.
Normally, the HC (often with consultation with the GM) decides which coordinators stay and which go. Then, the HC would have meetings with the coordinator to decide which position coaches to keep and which to let go (the coordinator, as the immediate supervisor, has the most knowledge about the position coaches).
To fire a defensive assistant without consulting with Wink is unusual and disrespectful to Wink's position (just as an HC position requires respect, so do coordinators). This is especially true when it comes to the defensive side of the ball which Daboll has limited experience with and likely spent less time with.
I answered Tim on this and the long and short of my answer is that we don't know that he wasn't consulted prior to this timeline detailed in Schwartz's article.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 11:55:40 AMThat article is recounting a timeline of about 24 hours. We have no idea what conversations Daboll had with Wink regarding these to coaches prior to that. If they were looking to fire them, I would be willing to be a lot of money that their performance and/or other issues were discussed during the season. WE don't know that I am correct, but I don't think we should assume that it came out of the blue and Wink had no idea that these guys were in the crosshairs.
We can't ignore the Giants' "leak," accusing Wink and the Wilkson brothers of trying to create a fiefdom. The Giants' own "leak" pretty much confirms the firing was over more than just performance.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 11:59:01 AMWe can't ignore the Giants' "leak," accusing Wink and the Wilkson brothers of trying to create a fiefdom. The Giants' own "leak" pretty much confirms the firing was over more than just performance.
And Daboll confronted that which means Wink knew Daboll was unhappy with the situation, hence why I said "and/or other issues".
Edit: just wanted to add, that Daboll knew Wink wasn't going to agree to firing them and it is Dabolls decision in the end.
I think it's a huge assumption to say Daboll never made Wink aware of his displeasure with those two. Part of the article states Daboll walked into a meeting and asked if anyone had a problem with him.
The whole thing reaks of Wink and these two brothers undermining the HC.
Insubordination is performance. How one conducts themselves, especially in stressful situations, tells you a lot about a person. All of your comments seem to say Daboll must do something, I feel the opposite. If wink truly believed this was his destination job maybe he should have done something. Other than cursing your boss and walking out.
Daboll was being a digg, and knew it
He tried to be cute about how he planned to get rid of Wink
I dont think he realized his ham handed approach would be broadcast so completely
I've totally lost respect for the little Bill Belichick Wannnabee
Like Joe Judge he will wind up back in New England likely
Mara should tell Schone to clear the deck completely and find a HC
Vrable is now available and would be a perfect fit for the Giants
I know I know another Belichick guy but was more a player than coach there
I've always admired Vrable
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2024, 08:11:13 AMRich,
After reading all of this I can't help but think some of this type of stuff is at least partially why Wink was pushed out in Baltimore.
I posted (on this thread or the similar one) an article that provided details of Wink's departure from Baltimore
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 10:40:54 AMThat's called enabling bad behavior. Don't feed tantrums. Let them fizzle out. Mature heads will prevail.
I can't help thinking that ultimately the root cause is Wink's bitterness at never landing a head coach gig and resenting the fact that Daboll was the head coach when he felt he was more deserving.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:52:47 AMFinally, jobs are jobs, and people are people. I have managed in a regular environment, a union environment, and in volunteer environments. So, I have experience in a wide variety of management environments.
None of which is in a highly competitive professional sports environment. I think that is a whole different animal.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 02:35:27 PMNone of which is in a highly competitive professional sports environment. I think that is a whole different animal.
In fairness, Mike Lombardi has considerable NFL management experience, and his views align very closely with my own. So perhaps managing in hospitals and emergency medical services where people's lives are on the line is not that removed from the "highly competitive professional sports" environment.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 02:32:56 PMI can't help thinking that ultimately the root cause is Wink's bitterness at never landing a head coach gig and resenting the fact that Daboll was the head coach when he felt he was more deserving.
I wouldn't disagree that it could certainly have been a factor. His arrogance and ego, when not checked or supervised properly, can take over at any time. And it did here. To your point, I do believe there is more than a hint of "Who is this young punk to call out my defense when his offense is putrid???"
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 10:34:02 AMTim,
Here's the catch, if Wink is as bad as you say he is, the Giants should be wanting him to go to Eagles and disrupt things.
The whole "the Giants are afraid he will go to the Eagles or Cowboys" narrative sounds more like something that would be coming from the Wink camp than the Giants.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 03:33:46 PMThe whole "the Giants are afraid he will go to the Eagles or Cowboys" narrative sounds more like something that would be coming from the Wink camp than the Giants.
Why was Daboll singing Wink's praises, saying how great a coach he is, and wanting to keep him just a few hours earlier? I can't help but feel the whole "Wink isn't a good DC" narrative was a construct to help people feel better about his departure.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:35:45 PMWhy was Daboll singing Wink's praises, saying how great a coach he is, and wanting to keep him just a few hours earlier? I can't help but feel the whole "Wink isn't a good DC" narrative was a construct to help people feel better about his departure.
Daboll singing Wink's praises and fans saying Wink isn't a good DC (which I don't recall seeing) are two separate things and are not connected.
Plenty of us have gone on record as to why we're glad Wink is gone. None of the reasons are what you just posted.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 03:41:14 PMDaboll singing Wink's praises and fans saying Wink isn't a good DC (which I don't recall seeing) are two separate things and are not connected.
Plenty of us have gone on record as to why we're glad Wink is gone. None of the reasons are what you just posted.
Daboll did more than sing his praises; he went on record saying he wanted and planned on keeping Wink. To me, that constitutes an action, which speaks louder than words. Plus, how many of those saying they are happy Wink is gone (now) were saying that before Monday?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:35:45 PMWhy was Daboll singing Wink's praises, saying how great a coach he is, and wanting to keep him just a few hours earlier? I can't help but feel the whole "Wink isn't a good DC" narrative was a construct to help people feel better about his departure.
Because coaches speak coachspeak. Just like Harbaugh did when Wink left Baltimore. Personally I think it is naive to take such pronouncements at face value. In the end the Giants haven't put restriction on where he can go, so that is indicative.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on January 10, 2024, 03:45:51 PMBecause coaches speak coachspeak. Just like Harbaugh did when Wink left Baltimore. Personally I think it is naive to take such pronouncements at face value. In the end the Giants haven't put restriction on where he can go, so that is indicative.
Say you're correct, why was T-Mac fired prior to the early morning presser while Daboll repeatedly said he planned on keeping Wink?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:43:25 PMDaboll did more than sing his praises; he went on record saying he wanted and planned on keeping Wink. To me, that constitutes an action, which speaks louder than words. Plus, how many of those saying they are happy Wink is gone (now) were saying that before Monday?
Rich,
You're trying to connect dots that aren't even in the same book, let alone the same page. You're trying to paint the picture that privately, Daboll wanted Wink gone and set a trap for him to fall into.
There were plenty of people calling out Wink for how he was scheming. Check any of the game day threads. Some of us who are NOW glad he's gone are so because of his "style" is not conducive to what Daboll is building.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 03:48:29 PMRich,
You're trying to connect dots that aren't even in the same book, let alone the same page. You're trying to paint the picture that privately, Daboll wanted Wink gone and set a trap for him to fall into.
There were plenty of people calling out Wink for how he was scheming. Check any of the game day threads. Some of us who are NOW glad he's gone are so because of his "style" is not conducive to what Daboll is building.
Tim,
I was reviewing the scores with an eye toward assigning blame to the offense, the defense, or both (same for winning). My idea is that defenses want to keep teams below 20 and do great. If it's below 10 and in the 20s, it can go either way and if it's over 30, it's the fault of the defense. I also will fault an offense if it fails to get double-digit points, as that burdens a defense. I will put out my full breakdown in a separate thread, but it appears the defense helped more and wasn't at fault less than the offense.
As to game threads, they are packed with emotions and coaches are among the targets (fair or not) whenever the team is struggling (which it did quite a bit this season). I am talking about the calm/clarity of mid-week and people talking about whether Wink should stay or go at the end of the season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:53:31 PMTim,
I was reviewing the scores with an eye toward assigning blame to the offense, the defense, or both (same for winning). My idea is that defenses want to keep teams below 20 and do great. If it's below 10 and in the 20s, it can go either way and if it's over 30, it's the fault of the defense. I also will fault an offense if it fails to get double-digit points, as that burdens a defense. I will put out my full breakdown in a separate thread, but it appears the defense helped more and wasn't at fault less than the offense.
As to game threads, they are packed with emotions and coaches are among the targets (fair or not) whenever the team is struggling (which it did quite a bit this season). I am talking about the calm/clarity of mid-week and people talking about whether Wink should stay or go at the end of the season.
That whole paragraph you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with Daboll and the point you made and I refuted.
Quote from: T200 on January 10, 2024, 03:55:18 PMThat whole paragraph you wrote has absolutely nothing to do with Daboll and the point you made and I refuted.
True
I guess in my mind, I had already been thinking about this, and when people started blaming the defense, I wasn't sure how fair or accurate that was. Still, to your point, it was a non-sequitur.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 10, 2024, 03:47:11 PMSay you're correct, why was T-Mac fired prior to the early morning presser while Daboll repeatedly said he planned on keeping Wink?
Because he knew there would be no controversy or drama over that firing