I bet he can still coach. But like he says Players win games. Also I think with him being GM and his legacy, Mara would be a non factor i.e. no Shep, no Jones playing here and / or on scholarship, no Barkley if he so desires.
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 11:06:16 AMI bet he can still coach. But like he says Players win games. Also I think with him being GM and his legacy, Mara would be a non factor i.e. no Shep, no Jones playing here and / or on scholarship, no Barkley if he so desires.
Sign him up as HC
Fire Daboll
Rare opportunity to restore the franchise quickly
Send jones to New England as compensation
I think he would come as our D is strong
And O surging
:badidea: :banghead: :banghead:
Would Belichick even think about coming to the Giants at this point?
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 11, 2024, 01:49:09 PMWould Belichick even think about coming to the Giants at this point?
Not if his primary motivation is to catch Shula as quickly as possible.
Possibly if his motivation were to be in a place he has some sentimental attachment to and a relationship with ownership.
Either way it's moot. They're not firing Daboll.
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 11:22:56 AMSign him up as HC
Fire Daboll
Rare opportunity to restore the franchise quickly
Send jones to New England as compensation
I think he would come as our D is strong
And O surging
If he could not restore the Pats, what makes you think he can do the Giants?
Quote from: Philosophers on January 11, 2024, 02:02:46 PMIf he could not restore the Pats, what makes you think he can do the Giants?
In Schoen he would have a competent GM to do the vulcan mind meld with
Schoen seems extremely diplomatic and could work with the ol GOAT
As a HC he is peerless, as a GM Fugetaboutit
We need a HC BADLY. He is as good as it gets
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 11, 2024, 01:56:07 PMNot if his primary motivation is to catch Shula as quickly as possible.
Possibly if his motivation were to be in a place he has some sentimental attachment to and a relationship with ownership.
Either way it's moot. They're not firing Daboll.
Not sure of BB's views towards various organizations, but I think if he comes back as a coach, he wants to win a Super bowl with another franchise. When I look at the openings the only team that I am pretty sure has it's QB is SD. They have a pretty notorious management group. Still, that might be the most underachieving team over the last couple of years.
The rest of the openings, Panthers, Commanders, Raiders, Falcons, Titans, Seahawks, have big questions marks at the QB position. Some of those teams have good units at various positions, but if you are looking to win quickly, the QB question mark is a tough one.
Only as a HC.
And sadly on in my dreams.
It would be a smart move.
We do not make many of those.
What a horrible take.
An out of touch coach that just finished worse than us, and hasn't drafted well in 6 years.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2024, 02:27:41 PMWhat a horrible take.
An out of touch coach that just finished worse than us, and hasn't drafted well in 6 years.
"has not drafted well in 6 years" Very True
But perhaps their scouting and evaluation department leaves something to be desired.
Sort of like another team we are very familiar with.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on January 11, 2024, 02:36:10 PM"has not drafted well in 6 years" Very True
But perhaps their scouting and evaluation department leaves something to be desired.
Sort of like another team we are very familiar with.
True, although he was responsible for everything, including staffing his scouting department. If they weren't up to scratch, he should have upgraded them. If he tried to do that and failed to get the right people, it's still on him.
At the end of the day the Pats' roster is a disaster, and Belichick is ultimately responsible for that. If he got bad advice from his underlings, that's his fault for not firing them and getting better people.
So this guy has not picked in the first round and/or picked 31st in the first round for going back to 2018 and, it is his fault his roster sucks?
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 03:07:06 PMSo this guy has not picked in the first round and/or picked 31st in the first round for going back to 2018 and, it is his fault his roster sucks?
He was in charge of everything and everybody there, so yes.
If it's not his fault, whom else do you blame?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 11, 2024, 03:11:56 PMHe was in charge of everything and everybody there, so yes.
If it's not his fault, whom else do you blame?
So who is going to build a roster with like no first round picks for years with the exception of Mack Jones with the 15th overral pick (which admittedly is not a good QB).
You think Shoen and Mara who decided to sign Daniel Jones for 160 mil are going to do it? You think Bill B. would have Shappard on this roster still in 2023? Little Bill would have cut him 5 years ago.
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 03:29:36 PMSo who is going to build a roster with like no first round picks for years with the exception of Mack Jones with the 15th overral pick (which admittedly is not a good QB).
You think Shoen and Mara who decided to sign Daniel Jones for 160 mil are going to do it? You think Bill B. would have Shappard on this roster still in 2023? Little Bill would have cut him 5 years ago.
What do you mean by no first round picks for years? How many years in the last decade did he have zero first round picks? I think the only time was 2016, which was due to the deflategate scandal which occurred under his watch. What other year in the last decade did he not have a first round pick?
2020 THEY DIDN'T. tHEY ALSO PICK LIKE 31
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 03:07:06 PMSo this guy has not picked in the first round and/or picked 31st in the first round for going back to 2018 and, it is his fault his roster sucks?
Who traded away the picks?
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 03:51:32 PM2020 THEY DIDN'T. tHEY ALSO PICK LIKE 31
They did in 2020. They traded down. They did that in other years too. Those were all Belichick's decisions.
He'll get hired on somewhere as he moves toward overtaking Don Shula's record. I'm ok with that, just as long as it isn't here or anywhere else in the NFC east.
He's a workaholic who knows nothing else.
His best days are behind him, however, he brings value to an organization and can improve a team/organization that needs a turnaround.
The question is: is the juice worth the squeeze?
He is someone who needs absolute authority and control. Will an owner be ok with Bill being who he is in exchange for the results desired with a team looking to improve or receive results that Belichick has had previously?
Top
So in '18 and '19 they won the afc east with a good record and picked late.
In 2020 they didn't have a first round pick.
In '21 they picked 15 and picked Mack Jones.
That doesn't sound like a very promising roster build after losing a QB they he developed from sixth round pick.
You're joking if you think our biker slob coach can hold a candle to this guy. The dude pulled some smoke and mirrors that no one in the nfl had seen before his first few weeks in the league. That and some luck found early success. Since then this guy is basically shurmur 2.0
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 05:07:23 PMSo in '18 and '19 they won the afc east with a good record and picked late.
In 2020 they didn't have a first round pick.
In '21 they picked 15 and picked Mack Jones.
That doesn't sound like a very promising roster build after losing a QB they he developed from sixth round pick.
You're joking if you think our biker slob coach can hold a candle to this guy. The dude pulled some smoke and mirrors that no one in the nfl had seen before his first few weeks in the league. That and some luck found early success. Since then this guy is basically shurmur 2.0
It's almost like having such low first round picks didn't matter because he had a HoF QB. It's no coincidence that the Patriots are 29-38 since Brady left. Belichick is in complete control of the roster. Any deficiencies directly fall on him.
Your argumen
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 11, 2024, 05:24:38 PMIt's almost like having such low first round picks didn't matter because he had a HoF QB. It's no coincidence that the Patriots are 29-38 since Brady left. Belichick is in complete control of the roster. Any deficiencies directly fall on him.
Your argument assumes all drafts are equal. Some years the talent is just not there. Remember when everyone and even to this day lament holding on to Eli and not drafting who Darnold ? It would've been an unmitigated disaster
Quote from: Fletch on January 11, 2024, 05:30:42 PMYour argument assumes all drafts are equal. Some years the talent is just not there. Remember when everyone and even to this day lament holding on to Eli and not drafting who Darnold ? It would've been an unmitigated disaster
If he isn't winning because he hasn't had an opportunity to get another generational QB then what's the point of bringing him in here?
There's out new DC. If Daboll flounders then turn it over to Bill. Fitting ending.
I would be on board with him taking over the defense but don't see him being an assistant to Daboll. Fun to think about though
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 11, 2024, 02:27:41 PMWhat a horrible take.
An out of touch coach that just finished worse than us, and hasn't drafted well in 6 years.
Out of touch would seem to describe a lot folks around here, Jess.
And for what it's worth, between 2005 and 2012, Tom Brady by choice took less than top dollar and was only the NFL's 7th highest paid QB whereas thereafter through 2019, he never ranked in double-digits. While that may have had little impact on the Pat's Drafts, it sure didn't hurt their ability to sign targeted FAs or re-sign /keep their own top talent.
In any case, it all Pat's history, and Little Bill might do well to follow suit.
Cheers!
Possible? Yes. Advisable? No.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 11, 2024, 06:45:32 PMIf he isn't winning because he hasn't had an opportunity to get another generational QB then what's the point of bringing him in here?
You'll never get an answer to that very logical question, which I've been asking for 3+ years. It amazes me how many fans continue to overvalue coaching, as it relates to winning, especially championships. While coaching does matter, it pales in comparison to talent. The latter can win without the former, but it's clear the former is completely dependent on the latter. I have seen more acknowledgment of that sentiment this year though.
Lil Bill is a great HC; however, like every modern day coach, you cannot consistently challenge for SBs without a prolific passer. BB is now 83-104 without Tom Brady; moreover, the fact NE took a nose dive after Brady's departure dampens BB legacy. This is especially true when you factor Brady won a SB with perennial average-to-below-average team, without Bill.
The notion he's going to come here and tangibly alter our trajectory is directly refuted by the facts. We will remain in our current state until we draft/acquire a plus-NFL passer. Sean Payton and Mike Tomlin agree with this statement.
Quote from: BluesCruz on January 11, 2024, 11:22:56 AMSign him up as HC
Fire Daboll
Rare opportunity to restore the franchise quickly
Send jones to New England as compensation
I think he would come as our D is strong
And O surging
BC, every post I see from you is against Daboll. It even looks as though every coach would be better than Daboll, no matter what.
I really don't understand where this comes from.
I understand the frustration on an dismal season, but think about it logically;
Quote from: Philosophers on January 11, 2024, 02:02:46 PMIf he could not restore the Pats, what makes you think he can do the Giants?
Exactly. that.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 12, 2024, 01:42:19 AMYou'll never get an answer to that very logical question, which I've been asking for 3+ years. It amazes me how many fans continue to overvalue coaching, as it relates to winning, especially championships. While coaching does matter, it pales in comparison to talent. The latter can win without the former, but it's clear the former is completely dependent on the latter. I have seen more acknowledgment of that sentiment this year though.
Lil Bill is a great HC; however, like every modern day coach, you cannot consistently challenge for SBs without a prolific passer. BB is now 83-104 without Tom Brady; moreover, the fact NE took a nose dive after Brady's departure dampens BB legacy. This is especially true when you factor Brady won a SB with perennial average-to-below-average team, without Bill.
The notion he's going to come here and tangibly alter our trajectory is directly refuted by the facts. We will remain in our current state until we draft/acquire a plus-NFL passer. Sean Payton and Mike Tomlin agree with this statement.
Not sure fans are over valuing coaching as much as you seem to be undervaluing it.
Bill said himself players win games. But the idea that we can just draft a great QB and coaching doesn't matter is a flawed one.
So it's just a coincidence that Trevor Lawrence started hitting his stride when he got a decent coach?
So Justin Herbert isn't really a prolific passer? He is but his coach stinks.
And the fact that Daboll is supposedly a head coach and stuck with Faniel Jones instead of drafting a QB or bringing in someone besides Tyrod — who is easily the best QB on the team; the fact he didn't bench Jones speaks volumes. This is still Maras team or he's a crumby coach. Either way not a good look.
I'll ask again you think bill bellicheck would tolerate orders from Mara ?
Quote from: Fletch on January 12, 2024, 07:49:34 AMNot sure fans are over valuing coaching as much as you seem to be undervaluing it.
Bill said himself players win games. But the idea that we can just draft a great QB and coaching doesn't matter is a flawed one.
So it's just a coincidence that Quote from: Fletch on January 12, 2024, 07:49:34 AMNot sure fans are over valuing coaching as much as you seem to be undervaluing it.
Bill said himself players win games. But the idea that we can just draft a great QB and coaching doesn't matter is a flawed one.
So it's just a coincidence that Trevor Lawrence started hitting his stride when he got a decent coach?
So Justin Herbert isn't really a prolific passer? He is but his coach stinks.
And the fact that Daboll is supposedly a head coach and stuck with Faniel Jones instead of drafting a QB or bringing in someone besides Tyrod — who is easily the best QB on the team; the fact he didn't bench Jones speaks volumes. This is still Maras team or he's a crumby coach. Either way not a good look.
I'll ask again you think bill bellicheck would tolerate orders from Mara ?
started hitting his stride when he got a decent coach?
So Justin Herbert isn't really a prolific passer? He is but his coach stinks.
And the fact that Daboll is supposedly a head coach and stuck with Faniel Jones instead of drafting a QB or bringing in someone besides Tyrod — who is easily the best QB on the team; the fact he didn't bench Jones speaks volumes. This is still Maras team or he's a crumby coach. Either way not a good look.
I'll ask again you think bill bellicheck would tolerate orders from Mara ?
You completely avoided the question, again. I understand why you do so; you can't offer a logical answer that doesn't refute your premise. So, you're attempting to obfuscate the discussion. For example, comparing Lawrence's rookie year to his second year is a massive fallacy; analysis clearly indicate QBs make their biggest leap between years 1 and 2. For example, Payton Manning and Troy Aikman enjoyed HoF coaching their first seasons; yet, both were terrible during their rookie years. Similar to almost all QBs, they 'hit their strides' during the second seasons. Justin Herbert is a particular odd example as he directly discredits your point; to my point, he's a prolific passer with a terrible coach and he'll continue to be a prolific passer with an average to above-average coach.
I'll ask again you think bill bellicheck would tolerate orders from Mara ?
BB had total autonomy the last four years and managed to run NE into the ground without the aforementioned HoF QB; so, the expectations that he's going to come here and turn things around, without a top-tier QB, is perplexing. Why would NY be different than NE? Like EVERY single team who manufactured a tangible turnaround, it starts with the QB, not the HC. Fundamentally, BB wouldn't make an appreciable difference with the same roster/QB. How do I know? W can you use the performance of several future HoF coaches without HoF QBs. Tomlin, Payton, Carrol and lil Bill have been average, to downright terrible without their AP QBs. Even young HCs like McVay and Taylor struggled without their signal callers. While you can offer a few examples at best, I can offer literally hundreds of tem. BL: If you don't have a QB, the HC doesn't make much of difference.
I've answered your question. How about you answer the question posed to you:
"If he isn't winning because he hasn't had an opportunity to get another generational QB then what's the point of bringing him in here?"
Quote"If he isn't winning because he hasn't had an opportunity to get another generational QB then what's the point of bringing him in here?"
I thought I did answer your question by saying Little Bill was hamstrung by poor draft positions for like the last 6 years ; he has not drafted higher than 15, and in at least one year did not draft in the first round while in another picked 31st if you want to count that really as first round pick.
You are putting too much emphasis on a QB. Perhaps the game has passed him by, but I don't think Bill has drafted a QB in the first round since Mack Jones.
And maybe he did miss on Mack Jones , but I would trust him to make the evaluation of Daniel Jones and draft another QB in a heavy QB draft class than I would Shoen and Mara.
Also, I would expect to the defense to be even better than they were which was the only real positive I have seen of the last season.
Quote from: Fletch on January 12, 2024, 09:42:33 AMYou are putting too much emphasis on a QB. Perhaps the game has passed him by, but I don't think Bill has drafted a QB in the first round since Mack Jones.
And maybe he did miss on Mack Jones , but I would trust him to make the evaluation of Daniel Jones and draft another QB in a heavy QB draft class than I would Shoen and Mara.
Based on what? We have no reason to think he has some insane eye for QBs when his entire career can be boiled down to one guy that was drafted in the 6th round 25 years ago. He's had one opportunity since then to get and mold his guy and that's been a miserable failure.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 12, 2024, 09:51:06 AMBased on what? We have no reason to think he has some insane eye for QBs when his entire career can be boiled down to one guy that was drafted in the 6th round 25 years ago. He's had one opportunity since then to get and mold his guy and that's been a miserable failure.
His entire career was based on a guy he drafted 25 years ago? You don't think that is a bit of an over-simplification? he doesn't get credit for defenses? He doesn't get credit for the development of said QB?
You really think Daniel Jones would be on this roster if little Bill was coach here. Shep in the year 2023 filled a roster spot here. Come on. THey were lucky they got to play the Eagles late this year, and not the Jaguars fighting for a playoff spot; otherwise they would have been a 5 win team.
No coach has an insane eye for QBs. Part of it is the coaching and part of it is the player themselves developing into Josh Allen or some are still the same mediocre QB they were in college despite having a decent coach in Garrett mentoring them along.
Quote from: Fletch on January 12, 2024, 10:07:13 AMHis entire career was based on a guy he drafted 25 years ago? You don't think that is a bit of an over-simplification? he doesn't get credit for defenses? He doesn't get credit for the development of said QB?
You really think Daniel Jones would be on this roster if little Bill was coach here. Shep in the year 2023 filled a roster spot here. Come on. THey were lucky they got to play the Eagles late this year, and not the Jaguars fighting for a playoff spot; otherwise they would have been a 5 win team.
No coach has an insane eye for QBs. Part of it is the coaching and part of it is the player themselves developing into Josh Allen or some are still the same mediocre QB they were in college despite having a decent coach in Garrett mentoring them along.
Belichick is a great defensive coach, but the way the game is now, the value of a defensive coach is significantly lessened. If you can't draft and develop a QB for the modern game, you are going to be in trouble and there's no reason to think Bill can do that.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 12, 2024, 11:46:32 AMBelichick is a great defensive coach, but the way the game is now, the value of a defensive coach is significantly lessened. If you can't draft and develop a QB for the modern game, you are going to be in trouble and there's no reason to think Bill can do that.
Are we talking about the Giants still or in general? I really don't know if there is a good QB in Mack Jone, or if Zeppe is better, or if the Patriots are just a mess because they have had some pretty crumby draft positions, or some combination thereof or if Bill just lost his edge.
However, I know a few things about the Giants, and he would certainly be considered a net positive here. For no other reason than Mara's meddling and ridiculous roster moves would be a thing of the past here.
I would say the best coach here since Tom Coughlin was easily Garrett. Not saying much. But, it is what it is. How that would not be an improvement and how there would be no doubt about QBs at least, and no doubt about the defense not taking a big step down since Winks departure , unless a solid defense minded coach brought in -- which BB is could not be considered a win-win.
Quote from: Fletch on January 12, 2024, 12:40:39 PMAre we talking about the Giants still or in general? I really don't know if there is a good QB in Mack Jone, or if Zeppe is better, or if the Patriots are just a mess because they have had some pretty crumby draft positions, or some combination thereof or if Bill just lost his edge.
However, I know a few things about the Giants, and he would certainly be considered a net positive here. For no other reason than Mara's meddling and ridiculous roster moves would be a thing of the past here.
I would say the best coach here since Tom Coughlin was easily Garrett. Not saying much. But, it is what it is. How that would not be an improvement and how there would be no doubt about QBs at least, and no doubt about the defense not taking a big step down since Winks departure , unless a solid defense minded coach brought in -- which BB is could not be considered a win-win.
If he picked Jones and Zappe and neither look like NFL caliber QBs then what does that say about either his ability to scout or ability to develop the position? You're not necessarily getting a coach better suited for this, you're just getting a name.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on January 12, 2024, 03:45:06 PMIf he picked Jones and Zappe and neither look like NFL caliber QBs then what does that say about either his ability to scout or ability to develop the position? You're not necessarily getting a coach better suited for this, you're just getting a name.
Not sure if you can say Mac Jones is not an NFL QB. Pretty obvious this is a waste of time. You have it in your head Bill Is an irrelevant person on a football team since all of his success can attributed to Tom Brady.
I'll leave with this -- he is a better coach than Daboll . But who knows I think Mara saddled him with such a bad QB who really knows. At least Mac Jones was a good college player. What the heck is the excuse for Daboll retaining Daniel Jones as a starting QB? There is also a history of Bill, ownership and Joe Judge as it pertains to Jones. The situation is not as cut and dry as you are making it to be.
Tom Brady said this week that Bill B. Is responsible for developing him into the QB he became. He seems to think coaching really matters. No way Brady becomes the QB he is with all these other QBs.
How about Bill B as head coach and he makes Nick Saban DC? Get the band back together.
Did you see the article today in which Louis Riddick said when he was interviewing for Giants GM, he contacted Saban to see if he'd coach the Giants?
Jim Harbaugh interviews for NFL head coaching job
I would rather have Jim
https://nypost.com/2024/01/16/sports/jim-harbaugh-next-team-odds-chargers-pull-away-after-head-coaching-interview/