I had a discussion with
@T200 that sort of veered (as topics tend to do) a bit off-topic, but the new ground seemed good enough to warrant its own thread. The question is, what do you think of Brian Daboll at this point in time?
I feel like to have a quality discussion, we need to define what makes a good or bad head coach. Since I lost the previous list I worked on I found one on the internet and made changes where needed.
Good qualities of NFL coaches:Leadership: Successful NFL coaches possess strong leadership skills. They inspire and motivate their players, and are able to communicate their vision and strategies effectively.
Football knowledge: NFL coaches are expected to have a deep understanding of the game of football, including its rules, strategies, and tactics. This includes analyzing opponents, designing game plans, and making adjustments during games.
Ability to build and manage a good coaching staff: An HC can only do so much on their own, and much of their success and failure depends on the quality of the staff he assembles and how he manages them. Good HCs identify and develop coaching talent, as success will often create the need to replace key people.
Decision-making skills: NFL coaches are faced with making critical decisions during games, such as play calling, clock management, and personnel adjustments. Good coaches are able to make sound decisions under pressure and in a fast-paced environment.
Adaptability: The NFL is a constantly evolving league, with new rules, trends, and strategies emerging regularly. Good coaches are adaptable and able to adjust their game plans to stay competitive.
Ability to build and sustain a winning culture- Teams that are consistently successful do so in many different ways, but they have solid winning cultures in their building.
Bad qualities of NFL coaches:Poor communication: NFL coaches need to be able to effectively communicate with their players, staff, and management. Poor communication can lead to misunderstandings, conflicts, and a breakdown in team cohesion.
Lack of player development: Developing players is an important aspect of coaching in the NFL. Coaches who fail to invest in player development and fail to help players reach their potential may struggle to build a successful team in the long term.
Lack of emotional intelligence: NFL coaches need to be able to manage the emotions of their players and staff, as well as their own. Coaches who lack emotional intelligence may struggle to build strong relationships with their team and may struggle to motivate and inspire their players.
So based on these criteria, how do you feel about Brian Daboll and his prospects moving forward
He has tested my patience in a big way this year, and I definitely don't give him a good grade for this year, but I am choosing to remain a believer for now. I thought what he managed to do last year was very impressive, and even though this year didn't go well I am not just tossing 2022 in the bin in a holistic evaluation. I like his energy level and passion, I do believe he is a skillful tactician of the game, and I generally (emphasis on generally) think his relationship with the players is positive.
This year wasn't good though. To be fair, 6-11 isn't THAT far off what I thought they'd do this year (had them at 8-9 I think), but it still wasn't good. The wins were mainly squeakers against really bad teams, and some of the losses were very ugly.
I definitely would not have advocated firing him after this year, and for me personally I wouldn't put him on razor thin ice going into next season (which is not to say there is no chance I'll advocate his firing after 2024). While I think he will have plenty of pressure on him next year, I am not sure I would ascribe some sort of "playoffs or bust" type bar to him automatically. A lot will depend on who the QB is and how that is developing.
I do think the ice is thinning though after this season, but overall I am still broadly a supporter and believer.
He has made mistakes and I do have concerns about his management style, specifically his tendency to overreact in the moment but he is inexperienced as a HC. I think might have got trapped into trying too hard and 'pressing' year two after an unexpectedly strong year one.
He has positive attributes, with more good than bad decisions under pressure and a very clear message that the team clearly bought into year one. Even in year two the team played hard to the bitter end though his decision making was more patchy. I don't think his issues with Wink necessarily mean he struggled with leadership, communication or EI in the locker room. The team never quit on him.
I do think Schoen has to give him more guidance/support to develop as a leader. I also think he would benefit from an experienced and trusted confidante in his leadership team with a less 'volatile' personality. Might that be Leslie Frazier?
Year three is critical, not just in terms of wins but also in seeing growth and maturity in how he handles his job.
Good qualities of NFL coaches:
Leadership: Successful NFL coaches possess strong leadership skills. They inspire and motivate their players, and are able to communicate their vision and strategies effectively.
I'd give him an A- because of the Wink situation. With how the season started against Dallas and the first half of the Arizona game, he could have easily lost the team. Through major injuries all throughout the season, the team didn't give up.
Football knowledge: NFL coaches are expected to have a deep understanding of the game of football, including its rules, strategies, and tactics. This includes analyzing opponents, designing game plans, and making adjustments during games.
B- Some of the games were head scratchers in terms of how they attacked opposing defenses and how the Giants defense prepared for the opposition.
Ability to build and manage a good coaching staff: An HC can only do so much on their own, and much of their success and failure depends on the quality of the staff he assembles and how he manages them. Good HCs identify and develop coaching talent, as success will often create the need to replace key people.
D - He fired a coordinator, three position coaches, and lost another coodinator. His coaching staff failed to develop (from what I can tell by performance on the field) any of the roster and it showed.
Decision-making skills: NFL coaches are faced with making critical decisions during games, such as play calling, clock management, and personnel adjustments. Good coaches are able to make sound decisions under pressure and in a fast-paced environment.
C- He had some very questionable calls and time management was a problem in a handful of games.
Adaptability: The NFL is a constantly evolving league, with new rules, trends, and strategies emerging regularly. Good coaches are adaptable and able to adjust their game plans to stay competitive.
C It's hard to say how much input he had on the offensive and defensive game plans. As the HC, the buck stops with him.
Ability to build and sustain a winning culture: Teams that are consistently successful do so in many different ways, but they have solid winning cultures in their building.
INC - It's too early to tell what kind of culture is prevalent. If I had to name it, it would be a 'never give up' culture. The team could have easily lost out and no one would have questioned whether they were deliberately tanking.
Bad qualities of NFL coaches:
Poor communication: NFL coaches need to be able to effectively communicate with their players, staff, and management. Poor communication can lead to misunderstandings, conflicts, and a breakdown in team cohesion.
A To my knowledge, there have not been any reports or concerns about poor communication from Daboll.
Lack of player development: Developing players is an important aspect of coaching in the NFL. Coaches who fail to invest in player development and fail to help players reach their potential may struggle to build a successful team in the long term.
F Not solely on the HC but he is in charge.
Lack of emotional intelligence: NFL coaches need to be able to manage the emotions of their players and staff, as well as their own. Coaches who lack emotional intelligence may struggle to build strong relationships with their team and may struggle to motivate and inspire their players.
B Emotions run high in sports. Having outbursts isn't necessarily a bad thing. Many successful coaches have had sideline outbursts and haven't lost their teams.
Now that someone else answered, I get to answer my question (I don't like to be the first to answer a question thread I post because I don't like to skew results).
Leadership: Players seem to like Dabbs, and they play hard for him. That said, the team has had games where they seemed a bit listless and they do seem to be consistently slow to get going.
Football Knowledge- Dabs seems to be a quality Xs and Os coach with experience on both sides of the ball
Ability to assemble and manage good coaching staff- The most important coaching positions to fill are both lines and the offensive and defensive coordinator. After 2 years, he has replaced 2 of them. The D-line coach is top-notch, and the offensive coordinator is a bit up in the air.
Decisions making- There is a lot of room for improvement on this front.
Adaptability- Dabbs seems to be a bit stuck in the Patriot's way. Not sure that's ideal and if this is by choice or habit.
Winning Culture- Hard to say that this task has been accomplished successfully
Communications- That is hard to judge from the outside, but it seems okay
Player development- This seems to be one of Daboll's deficiencies. While there have been a few successes, the failures outweigh the successes
Emotional Intelligence- the Wink saga puts this issue in serious question
I think there are a lot of good but some serious unknowns and bad indicators. I think it could go either way with Daboll and this upcoming season will be critical.
He is wayyyyyyy too emotional and somewhat irrational. Michevelli would have eased out Wink much more subtly in the coming year if he could not swallow some pride himself and heal the most important coaching relationship on the team- Him and Wink
He reached his Peter Principle as a OC. The Coach of the Year stuff was nice but window dressing
He was hired to put points on the board and "fix" Jones
He has struggled mightly with both tasks
He never rotated RBs and his plays and play calling were conservative if not really poor at times. Too much Barkley runs on 1st down for no gain
Just too much Barkley period. News Flash- Barkley cannot be relied on to catch a pass
His choice of Assistant coaches was mediocre and he gave those who obviously were deficient way too much rope
This was his 1st HC job and I doubt he will get another baring an 180 degree turnaround
The ham handed way he ran Wink out of town (literaly), was unsightly
I am still recovering from it personally
We should bring in Belichick or Vrable and possibly offer Daboll the OC job. He can keep Kafka up in the booth and they can work as a team.
This might be a pipe dream :suspious:
PS- As I write this I just 40 minutes ago dropped a bag with my MacBook Air in it. It would not charge or play sound. I was terrified. Found my
Apple screw driver, opened it up push down on every connection I could find and low and behold its fixed- I need a drink.
Quote from: londonblue on January 11, 2024, 01:45:02 PMHe has made mistakes and I do have concerns about his management style, specifically his tendency to overreact in the moment but he is inexperienced as a HC. I think might have got trapped into trying too hard and 'pressing' year two after an unexpectedly strong year one.
He has positive attributes, with more good than bad decisions under pressure and a very clear message that the team clearly bought into year one. Even in year two the team played hard to the bitter end though his decision making was more patchy. I don't think his issues with Wink necessarily mean he struggled with leadership, communication or EI in the locker room. The team never quit on him.
I do think Schoen has to give him more guidance/support to develop as a leader. I also think he would benefit from an experienced and trusted confidante in his leadership team with a less 'volatile' personality. Might that be Leslie Frazier?
Year three is critical, not just in terms of wins but also in seeing growth and maturity in how he handles his job.
Neil,
I like your thought about bringing in someone like Frazier to help mentor and support Daboll. I did a quick Google search. Even though he's 64 and on the defensive side of the ball. Frazier seems to be targeting a head coaching job rather than another DC job.
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10104405-nfl-rumors-2-time-super-bowl-winner-leslie-frazier-to-interview-for-chargers-hc-job
If he fails to land one of those, I do wonder if he is still interested in returning as a defensive coordinator. If Dabbs and Frazier had a good relationship in Buffalo this might be a good pairing.
Down...down...down.
1. The Martindale fiasco. Should have been handled the moment a problem is detected. Management 101 Sparky.....problems DO NOT just work themselves out by putting a little time behind them.
2. Directly, very directly cost us 4 wins with shaky coaching decisions. FOUR. And no, I do not lament that 4 more wins would have made us a playoff team. We would still be a bottom 10 team in terms of talent even if we were a playoff team. I threw away my rose colored glasses in viewing the Giants after the 1970 season.
3. FOUR games or roughly one quarter of the schedule we appeared totally unprepared for our opponent. I have watched MANY not good Giant teams, including 1966 and NEVER have I witnessed that.
4. Tommy DeVito benching, for a QB who will be nowhere near our roster next year. "I felt the team needed a spark." BULL FEATHERS. You mean that was the first time you felt this team needed a spark in TWO seasons. Have you checked your record lately ?? Why not just tell us the truth. I expect DeVito to get cut next August. Something is up regarding DeVito that Coach Sparky does not like.
5. More concerned with picking spots for Sterling Shepherd's farewell tour than having a punt returner. Terrible roster decision.
In short, in way over his head. Think Peter Principle. And don't get me started regarding his buddy buddy Oline coach. Took 2 yeaars to figure that out.
HC Sparky got a lot of mileage out of that 2 point conversion opening day in Tennessee. Way too much. The emperor has no clothes.
My biggest beef with him was the OTAs and training camp. I think they were soft, unfocused (particularly the OL), and didn't prepare the team to compete. That led to the first game debacle, which set the tone for the first half of the season.
But he held the team together despite the undermining, and for the most part they played hard for him.
Overall I give him a B-. I'll be very interested to see if training camp is different next year.
I can't see beyond game day and decisions visible to fans. I have no idea what goes on inside that building. I don't believe all hearsay because it could be based on one opinion, or to serve an agenda on the part of the reporter.
I know Dabs has had a lot of NFL experience but not from the HC's position. So, I have to give him slack to a learning curve. That said, Mara's Bono/Boso comment became fortuitous and as stupid as it was to say it publicly, maybe it was a message from what he was seeing. Maybe all this is the tip of the iceberg. Still, he hasn't been fired and he has the obvious support of Schoen.
I'm cautious but I recall Dabs had the players over at his house, he danced with them, and congratulates them on the field after a good play. He also gets visibly upset on the field, which is usually a bad thing. Gotta say, I perceived him as a player's coach. I learned a long time ago that it's easier for a disciplinarian to lighten up than it is for a nice guy to become a hard ass from the perception and acceptance of his players or employees.
Does anyone believe that Schoen wasn't aware of the Wink issues? I'm sure he was and so was Mara. I'm also pretty certain that it was discussed and a plan was put in place.
I think other factors need to be added at least in Daboll's case. First, he was a first year coach working for a first year GM. Second, I am convinced we have a meddling owner even if he's not as bad as he was; to me Mara going public with his thinking about personnel is not helpful even if the pressure is indirect. Third, a coach working in NY has a different job, in lots of areas, than a coach working in Green Bay. Last, he inherited a xxxx show of a roster with not available money. This is true for both he and Schoen and should not be ignored.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 11, 2024, 02:25:36 PMDoes anyone believe that Schoen wasn't aware of the Wink issues? I'm sure he was and so was Mara. I'm also pretty certain that it was discussed and a plan was put in place.
When the owner's money is involved, best believe he knows what's going down and what it could possibly cost him.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 11, 2024, 02:25:36 PMDoes anyone believe that Schoen wasn't aware of the Wink issues? I'm sure he was and so was Mara. I'm also pretty certain that it was discussed and a plan was put in place.
Former GM Randy Mueller often talks about one of his roles as a GM was to play peacemaker/referee.
In this situation, Schoen may have found that role challenging due to the prior close relationship with Daboll.
I guess it is new era. Coaches getting upset is now bad? I remember people here clamoring for for a certain jaw.
I am with Ed on this:
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 11, 2024, 02:23:28 PMI can't see beyond game day and decisions visible to fans. I have no idea what goes on inside that building. I don't believe all hearsay because it could be based on one opinion, or to serve an agenda on the part of the reporter.
Dabs over achieved one season and disappointed in the 2nd season. Without being around players and coaches in person it's really tough to say what leadership qualities he has or doesn't have. I can infer that some were there for him to get to the levels he attained. Further the team must have some respect for the man given their effort in week 18. That doesn't mean his leadership is without issues. No leader is perfect.
Quote from: Giant Obsession on January 11, 2024, 02:14:57 PMDown...down...down.
1. The Martindale fiasco. Should have been handled the moment a problem is detected. Management 101 Sparky.....problems DO NOT just work themselves out by putting a little time behind them.
2. Directly, very directly cost us 4 wins with shaky coaching decisions. FOUR. And no, I do not lament that 4 more wins would have made us a playoff team. We would still be a bottom 10 team in terms of talent even if we were a playoff team. I threw away my rose colored glasses in viewing the Giants after the 1970 season.
3. FOUR games or roughly one quarter of the schedule we appeared totally unprepared for our opponent. I have watched MANY not good Giant teams, including 1966 and NEVER have I witnessed that.
4. Tommy DeVito benching, for a QB who will be nowhere near our roster next year. "I felt the team needed a spark." BULL FEATHERS. You mean that was the first time you felt this team needed a spark in TWO seasons. Have you checked your record lately ?? Why not just tell us the truth. I expect DeVito to get cut next August. Something is up regarding DeVito that Coach Sparky does not like.
5. More concerned with picking spots for Sterling Shepherd's farewell tour than having a punt returner. Terrible roster decision.
In short, in way over his head. Think Peter Principle. And don't get me started regarding his buddy buddy Oline coach. Took 2 yeaars to figure that out.
HC Sparky got a lot of mileage out of that 2 point conversion opening day in Tennessee. Way too much. The emperor has no clothes.
You really think the Shepard farewell tour was his idea/choice? Given that Shepard was drafted long before Daboll was even an OC in Buffalo I doubt he had any sentimental attachment to the player. I doubt his direct boss did either.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 11, 2024, 02:42:51 PMI guess it is new era. Coaches getting upset is now bad? I remember people here clamoring for for a certain jaw.
I am with Ed on this:
Dabs over achieved one season and disappointed in the 2nd season. Without being around players and coaches in person it's really tough to say what leadership qualities he has or doesn't have. I can infer that some were there for him to get to the levels he attained. Further the team must have some respect for the man given their effort in week 18. That doesn't mean his leadership is without issues. No leader is perfect.
You really think the Shepard farewell tour was his idea/choice? Given that Shepard was drafted long before Daboll was even an OC in Buffalo I doubt he had any sentimental attachment to the player. I doubt his direct boss did either.
Matt,
I am trying to follow. You want to limit your take on Dabs to what you actually witness. Then you say you believe that Mara is responsible for Shepard being on the roster even though we have not seen any reports that say Mara made the call. Am I understanding you correctly?
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 11, 2024, 03:13:12 PMMatt,
I am trying to follow. You want to limit your take on Dabs to what you actually witness. Then you say you believe that Mara is responsible for Shepard being on the roster even though we have not seen any reports that say Mara made the call. Am I understanding you correctly?
You are understanding me correctly. Do you think Daboll has a some sentimental connection to Shepard?
Do we know if Daboll has 100% control of the 53 man roster?
What I witnessed with Shepard is this:
17 targets in the 1st 16 games. The fewest on the team. 5 targets in the final game. To my knowledge he did not play on special teams. Shepard was drafted in 2016 and did not play for Daboll until 2022. Those are things that I witnessed.
If I follow where I think you are going, you can call me inconsistent because I didn't hear Mara say keep him on the roster. However, making that inference from those facts as opposed to forming an educated opinion about Daboll's level of emotional leadership (for example) are apples and oranges.
Maybe Daboll or the WR coach wanted Shepard on the roster so they could target him once a game and keep him as veteran depth in case of injury. It's possible. Usually that last WR spot is someone that also plays on special teams though.
Its a tad different than saying I think I know how 53 men plus coaches feel about his leadership.
He knows how to win, but like any other coach it depends on the quality of players he has to work with.
Short memories forget... he got very good grades (and an award or two) for his first year as Giants' head coach.
Who's to say the friction between him & Wink didn't cost us enough games this year to have made a difference?
Bob
I'm not ready to give up on him as of yet. I can't go down lists but he does seem to have enough good qualities to warrant another year and hopefully improve the team. What worries me the most is that the entire team wasn't ready to play on just too many occasions. There were games where we didn't even show up and that goes to the HC.
Winning establishes a different culture. Players hated TC until he showed them that was the way to win. Then, all of a sudden. they all bought into his shpeal. In fact, you probably could go back to Parcels with the same thing. Winning makes coaches geniuses and players believe in it.
So let's stick with Daboll another year and see what happens.
Quote from: LennG on January 12, 2024, 11:18:05 AMI'm not ready to give up on him as of yet. I can't go down lists but he does seem to have enough good qualities to warrant another year and hopefully improve the team. What worries me the most is that the entire team wasn't ready to play on just too many occasions. There were games where we didn't even show up and that goes to the HC.
Winning establishes a different culture. Players hated TC until he showed them that was the way to win. Then, all of a sudden. they all bought into his shpeal. In fact, you probably could go back to Parcels with the same thing. Winning makes coaches geniuses and players believe in it.
So let's stick with Daboll another year and see what happens.
No doubt about everything you said. Daboll had his warts this year in season and game preparation.
On the hot seat next year. The team must win a minimum of 8 games.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 12, 2024, 11:21:34 AMNo doubt about everything you said. Daboll had his warts this year in season and game preparation.
Yup, my beef about Dabs isn't any of this drama crop, but the weak pre-season training preparation that led to the Giants being unable to compete in the first half of the season. Particularly when it was well-known that the opening games of the schedule were brutal.
This may have been a well-intentioned, but ultimately misguided, attempt to avoid injuries, but I, for one, will be watching closely how the training regime is or is not different in this upcoming year.
I like Daboll and believe in him
I played sports in high school and in college. Coaches are not "nice" when you make a mistake. The best ones blow a fuse when you screw up
I suppose there's four ways to look at it
1) Tough/no nonsense/overbearing/screamer (Vince Lombardi, Mike Ditka, Bill Parcells, Bill Cower, Bill Belichik)
2) nice guys who seldom yell, but had success (Bill Walsh, Tony Dungey, etc.)
3) Quiet nature, but hard nose disciplinarian who took no nonsense approach (Tom Landry, Tom Coughlin, etc.)
4) Kindness and being a teacher (John Madden - a mastermind of the game who explained each detail of the game and position to his players as he taught them the right way to play. He always believed that the "game is won in the trenches" and only had three rules: "Be on time, Pay attention and Play like hell when I tell you to."
I think Daboll is combination of 1 and 4, leaning more towards 1
When you're in charge of the game, you can do whatever you want; however, getting coaches and players to be okay with that is another thing...especially in the new woke culture with kids coming out of college
Well..he isn't the fraud like Siriani. I don't have really anything to add but to remember how TC came in with the military persona..got called out by Strahan and others to dial it back some
and showed real growth as a coach that led to respect and titles
I am not sold on him either. This year improvement with his game-planning..in-game decisions..and preparation have to better despite the roster.
Jolly,
John Madden loved his guys, no doubt.
However, he gave the refs absolute grief
in many, many expletives that were anything but kind. Hell..the Raiders wrote them on game balls!! F@#×Ed Your Mother.etc. :hurt:
Quote from: spiderblue43 on January 12, 2024, 12:53:39 PMJolly,
John Madden loved his guys, no doubt.
However, he gave the refs absolute grief
in many, many expletives that were anything but kind. Hell..the Raiders wrote them on game balls!! F@#×Ed Your Mother.etc. :hurt:
In real life, he was a very kind and generous man who loved people, not only his players. Giving refs hell is just part of the game. Keep them intimidated and honest so they don't get cute calling ticky-tack BS calls. All good coaches ride the asses of refs...it's half their job on game day. As far as the obscenities written on game balls, that's just locker-room humor as players like to make absurd claims to get laughs - dark humor if you will