https://x.com/Ihartitz/status/1750260996311007353?s=20
To no one's surprise.
And it's why drafting a QB this year would be an absolute waste. The pool is just not that talented beyond the top 2, and they'd be playing alongside the worst supporting cast in the league.
Spend the next 2 years righting the ship, then be in a position to compete in 2026.
They spent the last two years righting the ship. It didn't work. If you can get one of the big-3 QBs, you go and get the QB.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 25, 2024, 03:07:00 PMThey spent the last two years righting the ship. It didn't work. If you can get one of the big-3 QBs, you go and get the QB.
I think the Jags and the Chargers are what you get when you just "go for a QB" when you lack the foundation of a solid team. Maybe Harbough will turn the Chargers around, but there are not many coaches of his caliber available to teams.
Plus, I don't believe there is one of the 3 elite QB prospects available. Why would a QB needy team trade away an elite QB prospect?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 25, 2024, 03:07:00 PMThey spent the last two years righting the ship. It didn't work. If you can get one of the big-3 QBs, you go and get the QB.
I'm pretty sure that when your team ranks dead last in the league at supporting cast, the ship is not right.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 03:18:51 PMI'm pretty sure that when your team ranks dead last in the league at supporting cast, the ship is not right.
QB and all of the positions that fall into the "supporting cast" need an infusion of talent. We have multiple draft picks as well as money for free agents. More than one of those positions can be checked off the grocery list. None should be excluded.
I understand the logic around getting your ducks in order before bringing in a QB and getting proper value of the advantage of having him on a rookie contract. That's a great strategy in theory, but in theory only. The reality, which people like to omit when they lay this strategy out, is that you can't just decide to "go get a franchise QB" any old year you want. It doesn't work that way. If you build up the rest of your roster first, that's a great way to become the Andy Dalton Bengals or the Ryan Tannehill Titans. Now compared to the dreck we have now, that might not seem so bad, but if your goal is to actually win Super Bowls again someday, that is not an appealing strategy.
I would further add that a good, very good, or great QB is a 10 to 20 year investment. Obviously, it's great if you can take advantage of the period when he's on his rookie contract and potentially win a Super Bowl then, but if you were bad enough to have had a high enough pick to get said QB, that's going to be more easily said than done. It's doable, yes, but it's not easy nor is it something you can bank on. So if you have the opportunity to get someone like Drake Maye (and I'm not saying we do), unless you already have a QB you are very bullish on for the long term, I would argue you should do it. Again, it's a 15 or so year investment if you get it right. It's not do or die in the first 3-4 years.
And I understand that great QBs are not only found in the top 5 or top 10 of the draft. I get it. But I like to deal in probabilities rather than outliers when I think strategically, and it's pretty clear that your chances of getting an excellent QB in any given draft are much better if you're picking near the top of the first round than if you're picking in the middle or near the bottom. Yes, guys like Lamar Jackson and even Aaron Rodgers sometimes slip in the first round, and sure, we all know that Brady and Russell Wilson were taken long after the first round. But for every Brady, Wilson, and Aaron Rodgers there are hundreds of Desmond Ridders, Kenny Picketts, and Paxton Lynches. Again - I am dealing in the large, telltale samples of data, not the outliers.
I don't think we will take a QB this year, mainly because the big three won't be available to us and we are picking too high to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. We'll see if there is a trade opportunity and if the Giants would actually be game for it, but I doubt it. So in no way am I suggesting reaching for some middling QB with the sixth pick in the draft. Our previous GM did that, and we all know what the results have been. My point with this post is to just dispute the notion that you should pass up on drafting a QB prospect you're very high on simply because the rest of your team is not fully built up. I firmly disagree with that stance for all of the reasons laid out above.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 25, 2024, 03:50:03 PMI understand the logic around getting your ducks in order before bringing in a QB and getting proper value of the advantage of having him on a rookie contract. That's a great strategy in theory, but in theory only. The reality, which people like to omit when they lay this strategy out, is that you can't just decide to "go get a franchise QB" any old year you want. It doesn't work that way. If you build up the rest of your roster first, that's a great way to become the Andy Dalton Bengals or the Ryan Tannehill Titans. Now compared to the dreck we have now, that might not seem so bad, but if your goal is to actually win Super Bowls again someday, that is not an appealing strategy.
I would further add that a good, very good, or great QB is a 10 to 20 year investment. Obviously, it's great if you can take advantage of the period when he's on his rookie contract and potentially win a Super Bowl then, but if you were bad enough to have had a high enough pick to get said QB, that's going to be more easily said than done. It's doable, yes, but it's not easy nor is it something you can bank on. So if you have the opportunity to get someone like Drake Maye (and I'm not saying we do), unless you already have a QB you are very bullish on for the long term, I would argue you should do it. Again, it's a 15 or so year investment if you get it right. It's not do or die in the first 3-4 years.
And I understand that great QBs are not only found in the top 5 or top 10 of the draft. I get it. But I like to deal in probabilities rather than outliers when I think strategically, and it's pretty clear that your chances of getting an excellent QB in any given draft are much better if you're picking near the top of the first round than if you're picking in the middle or near the bottom. Yes, guys like Lamar Jackson and even Aaron Rodgers sometimes slip in the first round, and sure, we all know that Brady and Russell Wilson were taken long after the first round. But for every Brady, Wilson, and Aaron Rodgers there are hundreds of Desmond Ridders, Kenny Picketts, and Paxton Lynches. Again - I am dealing in the large, telltale samples of data, not the outliers.
I don't think we will take a QB this year, mainly because the big three won't be available to us and we are picking too high to take the fourth QB off the board sixth overall. We'll see if there is a trade opportunity and if the Giants would actually be game for it, but I doubt it. So in no way am I suggesting reaching for some middling QB with the sixth pick in the draft. Our previous GM did that, and we all know what the results have been. My point with this post is to just dispute the notion that you should pass up on drafting a QB prospect you're very high on simply because the rest of your team is not fully built up. I firmly disagree with that stance for all of the reasons laid out above.
Of the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB. Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).
Edit to add- If you expand this out to the teams from last week. 3 (the Bucs, Packers, and Bills) had solid teams before acquiring their QB and only the Texans had a weak team before getting their QB (although they acquired talent and a good coach while acquiring their QB)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 25, 2024, 03:55:23 PMOf the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB. Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).
I acknowledged that there are examples of good QBs who slip to the late first round and beyond in my post. Pinpointing a few of these examples does not automatically negate my point.
It's moot anyway. The Giants aren't drafting a first round QB this year. We'll take yet another O lineman or some other player and run it back again with Jones for his sixth year in the NFL. And like every other year we'll hear about how he is "carrying himself differently this year" during training camp, we'll get a few photos off twitter about how ripped he looks, we'll get excited about a single offensive series in a preseason game, we'll post about how crazy it is that Vegas has us a 5.5 or 6 win team, and then we can have this same conversation again a year from now when we're picking in the top 10 again. Rinse repeat.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 03:18:51 PMI'm pretty sure that when your team ranks dead last in the league at supporting cast, the ship is not right.
They literally followed your advice two years ago and it's been a disaster for Schoen. You really think he would bet his job on passing on a potential franchise QB at this point because of a PFF article? Wait two years to have a shot at being competitive? No thanks.
The 49ers, Chiefs and Ravens are well run organizations. The Giants are a poorly run organization. Big difference.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 25, 2024, 04:05:11 PMI acknowledged that there are examples of good QBs who slip to the late first round and beyond in my post. Pinpointing a few of these examples does not automatically negate my point.
It's moot anyway. The Giants aren't drafting a first round QB this year. We'll take yet another O lineman or some other player and run it back again with Jones for his sixth year in the NFL. And like every other year we'll hear about how he is "carrying himself differently this year" during training camp, we'll get a few photos off twitter about how ripped he looks, we'll get excited about a single offensive series in a preseason game, we'll post about how crazy it is that Vegas has us a 5.5 or 6 win team, and then we can have this same conversation again a year from now when we're picking in the top 10 again. Rinse repeat.
With the worst QB support in the league, perhaps you should expand your view to more than just the QB.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 25, 2024, 04:05:11 PMI acknowledged that there are examples of good QBs who slip to the late first round and beyond in my post. Pinpointing a few of these examples does not automatically negate my point.
It's moot anyway. The Giants aren't drafting a first round QB this year. We'll take yet another O lineman or some other player and run it back again with Jones for his sixth year in the NFL. And like every other year we'll hear about how he is "carrying himself differently this year" during training camp, we'll get a few photos off twitter about how ripped he looks, we'll get excited about a single offensive series in a preseason game, we'll post about how crazy it is that Vegas has us a 5.5 or 6 win team, and then we can have this same conversation again a year from now when we're picking in the top 10 again. Rinse repeat.
Boom. This. Exactly this.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 25, 2024, 05:41:29 PMWith the worst QB support in the league, perhaps you should expand your view to more than just the QB.
Where did I say all we need is a QB and nothing else?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 25, 2024, 05:21:53 PMThey literally followed your advice two years ago and it's been a disaster for Schoen. You really think he would bet his job on passing on a potential franchise QB at this point because of a PFF article? Wait two years to have a shot at being competitive? No thanks.
. What franchise QB is going to be available at #6? None. Which QB is worth trading a ransom of picks for when the team has a million holes? None. So what's your plan?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 25, 2024, 05:21:53 PMThey literally followed your advice two years ago and it's been a disaster for Schoen. You really think he would bet his job on passing on a potential franchise QB at this point because of a PFF article? Wait two years to have a shot at being competitive? No thanks.
And once again, they did not follow my advice and right the ship because that involves bringing in talented players who produce. They have not done that at all.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 06:24:42 PM. What franchise QB is going to be available at #6? None. Which QB is worth trading a ransom of picks for when the team has a million holes? None. So what's your plan?
I like
@T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 25, 2024, 06:29:45 PMI like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
[/quote
McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 06:49:41 PMQuote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 25, 2024, 06:29:45 PMI like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
[/quote
McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.
I didnt say it would happen. I said I liked it.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 06:24:42 PM. What franchise QB is going to be available at #6? None. Which QB is worth trading a ransom of picks for when the team has a million holes? None. So what's your plan?
If there is no franchise QB available in April then the entire discussion is moot. If you get the opportunity to get one of the big-3 QBs you take him. If you can't get one of the three then it is what it is. But you don't pass on any of the three because of some misguided belief that you can build out a playoff roster then fill in the QB position at a later date. That is just institutionalizing the concept of QB hell. As it is the Giants have institutionalized low expectations and excuse making.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 06:49:41 PMQuote from: EDjohnst1981 on January 25, 2024, 06:29:45 PMI like @T200 post where he said that your sign and trade Barkley and the 6th for the 1st pick.
McCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.
Saquon's value is whatever a team is willing to pay him. We can debate our perceived worth for him all day but it doesn't matter what we think... only what a team will pay.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 06:29:17 PMAnd once again, they did not follow my advice and right the ship because that involves bringing in talented players who produce. They have not done that at all.
Under Schoen they used first round picks on Thibs, Neal, and Banks. If their next three first round picks are equivalent to these three, and we still don't have a QB, this team isn't going to be any better than it is today. You're hoping for better picks, which is fair, we all want that. But without a legitimate franchise QB to tie everything together, it's not going to work.
Quote from: T200 on January 25, 2024, 06:59:57 PMMcCaffery, who is 100X better than Saquon, was traded for a pittance. I think you're hugely overrating Saquon's trade value.
Saquon's value is whatever a team is willing to pay him. We can debate our perceived worth for him all day but it doesn't matter what we think... only what a team will pay.
Tim,
Fans (myself included) tend to overvalue players on our team's roster. I try to counter that inclination by pretending the player isn't on our team and what I would be willing to pay to acquire him rather than what I want for a player. I find looking at what I would be willing to give up to get a player gives me a bit more of a realistic view of a player's value.
Take Barkley; the guy's special speed is gone, and he has shown he has limited value in the receiving game. He can be a solid RB, but he's injury-prone and aging. I wouldn't give up more than say a 5th round pick, if that.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 08:43:12 AMTim,
Fans (myself included) tend to overvalue players on our team's roster. I try to counter that inclination by pretending the player isn't on our team and what I would be willing to pay to acquire him rather than what I want for a player. I find looking at what I would be willing to give up to get a player gives me a bit more of a realistic view of a player's value.
Take Barkley; the guy's special speed is gone, and he has shown he has limited value in the receiving game. He can be a solid RB, but he's injury-prone and aging. I wouldn't give up more than say a 5th round pick, if that.
As fans, we have a certain perspective that, at times, can be spot-on. More often than not, though, our thinking as fans preclude us from thinking like a real NFL GM. They have a lot more information at their disposal and many other factors that we, as fans, don't consider when it comes to making deals with players.
We can sit behind our keyboards and say a player is worth this draft pick or this amount of money. But, as I said, the value is set by the person making the deal. It may not be worth it to *US* but if a deal is made, it was worth it for the parties involved.
Quote from: T200 on January 26, 2024, 08:50:39 AMAs fans, we have a certain perspective that, at times, can be spot-on. More often than not, though, our thinking as fans preclude us from thinking like a real NFL GM. They have a lot more information at their disposal and many other factors that we, as fans, don't consider when it comes to making deals with players.
We can sit behind our keyboards and say a player is worth this draft pick or this amount of money. But, as I said, the value is set by the person making the deal. It may not be worth it to *US* but if a deal is made, it was worth it for the parties involved.
Tim,
My favorite people to listen to when it comes to football are former GMs. I used to listen to HOF GM Bill Polian (who seems to have stopped generating content) as much as possible, I listen to former GM Mike Lombardi (his books and his podcast), I listen to former GM Randy Mueller (his Athletic show podcast on Saturdays), I listen to former GM Mike Tanebuem (guest on podcasts as well as 33rd team). I also curate a Twitter list of former GMs and other football execs.
https://twitter.com/i/lists/1372238271502286848
I listen to former GMs so I can better understand how GMs think. There is value in listening to former players and pundits, but to me, it's limited compared to listening to the men who actually did the job at the GM level.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 25, 2024, 03:07:00 PMThey spent the last two years righting the ship. It didn't work. If you can get one of the big-3 QBs, you go and get the QB.
Doc: Re-read the comment quoted in the original post.
It's about "average team PFF rush, receiving, pass blocking and run blocking grades (everything except passing").
To me, it's an argument that the problem is not the QB (it seems to show that the problem is supporting cast and depth).
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 26, 2024, 10:21:50 AMDoc: Re-read the comment quoted in the original post.
It's about "average team PFF rush, receiving, pass blocking and run blocking grades (everything except passing").
To me, it's an argument that the problem is not the QB (it seems to show that the problem is supporting cast and depth).
Bob
Obviously I disagree with your interpretation.
The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.
Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.
Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.
The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.
This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.
Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 10:47:26 AMObviously I disagree with your interpretation.
The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.
Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.
Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.
The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.
This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.
Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.
Since before Eli "got old" the offensive line has been a problem. Receiver hasn't been much better with the exception of a couple of the OBJ years. Coaching has been an issue since the Giants moved on from Coughlin. GM hasn't exactly been a strength since Reese had a couple of good years early in his career.
QB was going to be a "problem" regardless of who was throwing the football. QBs can't do it all by themselves they need support of the team they play on.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 10:52:48 AMSince before Eli "got old" the offensive line has been a problem. Receiver hasn't been much better with the exception of a couple of the OBJ years. Coaching has been an issue since the Giants moved on from Coughlin. GM hasn't exactly been a strength since Reese had a couple of good years early in his career.
QB was going to be a "problem" regardless of who was throwing the football. QBs can't do it all by themselves they need support of the team they play on.
This is a laundry list of complaints, not a plan. What's the plan other than pray for better draft picks? At least building around a new QB is a plan we can all wrap our heads around.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 10:56:39 AMThis is a laundry list of complaints, not a plan. What's the plan other than pray for better draft picks? At least building around a new QB is a plan we can all wrap our heads around.
The plan is for you to start at the foundation. You have the proper leadership that sets a winning culture and way of doing things. With that in place, you start building up your talent, starting with the trenches. You always keep an eye on the chance to acquire a franchise-caliber QB, but you don't compromise or reach on that acquisition. If it's not there, you keep on building up the team. The better the team is when you draft the QB the better the chances that QB has of succeeding.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 10:59:19 AMThe plan is for you to start at the foundation. You have the proper leadership that sets a winning culture and way of doing things. With that in place, you start building up your talent, starting with the trenches. You always keep an eye on the chance to acquire a franchise-caliber QB, but you don't compromise or reach on that acquisition. If it's not there, you keep on building up the team. The better the team is when you draft the QB the better the chances that QB has of succeeding.
MG, they've literally done that the last two years. You don't like the results but you think the results will be different over the next two years?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 11:04:19 AMMG, they've literally done that the last two years. You don't like the results but you think the results will be different over the next two years?
The Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over. Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.
I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team. Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.
QuoteI understand the logic around getting your ducks in order before bringing in a QB
I do not see the logic in that. How would you know if you righted the ship anyway if your QB appears to a high end back-up who isn't on the field like 40% of the time?
I mean I see the Jets are on that list. Should they trade Aaron Rodgers away? Did the Patriots say gee why draft Drew Bledsoe when the rest of the team stinks? NO! The steps are coach, QB, everything else.
The only one saying otherwise has a personal , emotional connection to be proved right about Daniel jones
Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 11:24:15 AMThe steps are coach, QB, everything else.
75% of the teams in the divisional and conference championship show this is NOT the way you build a contender. It's coach/GM, solid talent base, QB, then fill any remaining holes. Simply put, drafting a QB to a poor team stacks the odds against the QB prospect, while drafting a QB to a solid team greatly increases the chances for a QB to develop into a franchise QB.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 11:23:13 AMThe Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over. Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.
I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team. Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.
Of course you struggle to see it. You spent years building up a mythology around Daniel Jones and now you're disappointed. Just like the rest of the organization, you're stuck in a no man's land (otherwise known as QB hell).
What has the Schoen regime done that you have a problem with? They drafted the best edge rush prospect in their first draft, followed by a so-called can't miss ORT, followed by a dynamic slot receiver. Then they drafted a guy with shutdown corner ability, followed by the best Center prospect, followed by a deep threat WR.
They locked up All Pro talents at DT and OLT,and signed a near All Pro performer at ILB, all of whom are universally viewed as foundational pieces.
They've followed the roster building playbook exactly how any person who wants to diminish the impact of the QB position would want to build a roster.
The problem is the players they drafted aren't as good as their draft position would indicate (sound familiar?).
The coaching staff is a mess. The GM may or may not be in over his head. We don't know yet.
Where is this so-called plan for building the foundation and how is it any different than the plan they implemented over the last two years? Find better players. Beyond that, what? Wait for the Daboll/Schoen regime to implode (like so many of their predecessors)? What are we trying to get done here?
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 11:45:19 AMOf course you struggle to see it. You spent years building up a mythology around Daniel Jones and now you're disappointed. Just like the rest of the organization, you're stuck in a no man's land (otherwise known as QB hell).
What has the Schoen regime done that you have a problem with? They drafted the best edge rush prospect in their first draft, followed by a so-called can't miss ORT, followed by a dynamic slot receiver. Then they drafted a guy with shutdown corner ability, followed by the best Center prospect, followed by a deep threat WR.
They locked up All Pro talents at DT and OLT,and signed a near All Pro performer at ILB, all of whom are universally viewed as foundational pieces.
They've followed the roster building playbook exactly how any person who wants to diminish the impact of the QB position would want to build a roster.
The problem is the players they drafted aren't as good as their draft position would indicate (sound familiar?).
The coaching staff is a mess. The GM may or may not be in over his head. We don't know yet.
Where is this so-called plan for building the foundation and how is it any different than the plan they implemented over the last two years? Find better players. Beyond that, what? Wait for the Daboll/Schoen regime to implode (like so many of their predecessors)? What are we trying to get done here?
Doc,
Can we dispense with the personal attacks ("you spent years building up a mythology") and simply respectfully discuss football?
Bill Parcells says "You are what your record says are."
If this team were so well built, you would have former GM Jamie Diamond listing the Giants among the 5 teams in need of the most work.
The Giants don't appear to be any closer to being contenders now than they were 2 years ago.
As for mistakes, both Schoen and Daboll have made many, from Schoen reaching on undersized players or spending a draft fortune on O-linemen while failing to get even one quality starter. You can also throw in signing guys like Parris Campbell, trading for an injury-prone TE, acquiring too many slot WRs, keeping the wrong guys at cut down, trying to make RB Eric Gray the punt returner, wasting 12 million on Barkley, not exercising Daniel Jones' 5th-year option (which would have meant this was they would have been deciding this offseason what to offer Jones if they were inclined to sign him at all). There was also Schoen letting now Pro Bowler Julian Love walk. Schoen also traded away draft assets to get guys who barely contributed, Bogie Basham and Isiah Simmons. Building in the trenches is important, and Schoen has failed to do that properly on both sides of the ball.
Joe Schoen also has some responsibility for the coaching drama, as part of being a good GM is keeping the peace and resolving differences before they become toxic messes.
Perhaps Schoen's biggest shortcoming is he is singing Ronnie Barnes' praises instead of quietly getting the man responsible for the team's decade-plus "bad luck with injuries streak (aka being among the most injured team year after year).
Two additional thoughts for
@MightyGiants:
1. That you read my statement as a personal attack says a lot. I challenge you to think more deeply about why I said what I said.
2. No one thinks the team is well built. The difference is some of us have accepted we can't get to well built without a QB.
I'll add an additional thought:
3. You are focused on results rather than objectives. If you look at the moves Schoen has made (not the results of those moves), he is clearly trying to build a foundation. Some of you are deflecting the fact that your preferred process is aligned with what Schoen has already done. It didn't work then and is unlikely to work now.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 12:07:55 PMTwo additional thoughts for @MightyGiants:
1. That you read my statement as a personal attack says a lot. I challenge you to think more deeply about why I said what I said.
2. No one thinks the team is well built. The difference is some of us have accepted we can't get to well built without a QB.
To point number one, I will expand (since you asked). Your commentary was a violation of point 7 of the 10 signs of intellectual honesty.
7. Address the argument instead of attacking the person making the argument. Ad hominem arguments are a clear sign of intellectual dishonesty. However, often times, the dishonesty is more subtle. For example, someone might make a token effort at debunking an argument and then turn significant attention to the person making the argument, relying on stereotypes, guilt-by-association, and innocent-sounding gotcha questions.
Plus number 9 is critical thinking skills. Of those you violated
5. uncover assumptions and biases
and
11. understand your own biases and values
By assuming you knew what motivated me or how I was thinking you broke rule 5 (and to a lesser extent 11). Plus, you are assuming you were free of your own biases or imposing your own values as you assume that anyone who hadn't agreed with you must be badly flawed.
I hope you find that enough consideration.
2. You really have a strange assumption/claim there. For a team to be a contender, they need to have a franchise QB (you couldn't be more wrong claiming that I don't believe that to be the case). The difference is you claim you can't build without a QB while I say that ideally a team needs a solid foundation before adding a QB.
Shocking and somewhat comical that you think I've made a "token" argument in this thread. I've been fairly clear (and consistent over the years) on my thoughts regarding the QB position and the QB hell this organization has existed in going on 6 years.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 12:13:28 PMI'll add an additional thought:
3. You are focused on results rather than objectives. If you look at the moves Schoen has made (not the results of those moves), he is clearly trying to build a foundation. Some of you are deflecting the fact that your preferred process is aligned with what Schoen has already done. It didn't work then and is unlikely to work now.
Doc,
We differ in that I see that the process was flawed. You start with leadership. You bring in a solid GM and HC pairing (Schoen knew Daboll, and I am seriously wondering if Schoen failed in step one)
After you have that (which is in serious doubt), you start building the team, focusing on the trenches. Now, here is where we differ. Do you think just throwing drafted players at the problem will fix it? I believe it starts with having really good line coaches on both sides of the ball. The Giants and Wink did that when they hired Andre Patterson to coach the defensive line, but Schoen failed badly, allowing Daboll to bring his buddy Bobby Johson with him from Buffalo (worse, Schoen worked with BJ and should have seen the problem). Thanks to the failure to secure a quality O-line coach Schoen has sunk a ton of draft capital into the position with nothing to show for it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 11:37:12 AM75% of the teams in the divisional and conference championship show this is NOT the way you build a contender. It's coach/GM, solid talent base, QB, then fill any remaining holes. Simply put, drafting a QB to a poor team stacks the odds against the QB prospect, while drafting a QB to a solid team greatly increases the chances for a QB to develop into a franchise QB.
What 75% ?
I know you cannot be talking about the Lions. And you should not be thinking that was the Chiefs situation. The Chiefs had Alex Smith , a guy with a top 10 QBR multiple seasons; a 3x pro bowler; a leader in Y/PA in the league, a 2020 comeback player of the year. He had issues that could not get them over the hump or so people thought that with Jared Goff too .... so Daniel Jones is Alex Smith now? Not even close.
Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 12:42:31 PMWhat 75% ?
I know you cannot be talking about the Lions. And you should not be thinking that was the Chiefs situation. The Chiefs had Alex Smith , a guy with a top 10 QBR multiple seasons; a 3x pro bowler; a leader in Y/PA in the league, a 2020 comeback player of the year. He had issues that could not get them over the hump or so people thought that with Jared Goff too .... so Daniel Jones is Alex Smith now? Not even close.
Of the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB. Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).
If you expand this out to the teams from last week. 3 (the Bucs, Packers, and Bills) had solid teams before acquiring their QB and only the Texans had a weak team before getting their QB (although they acquired talent and a good coach while acquiring their QB)
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 11:23:13 AMThe Giants were the 5th worse team in the league 2 years ago (according to draft position) when Joe and Brian took over. Two years later, they are now the 6th worst team (and PFF's worst QB support team) in the league.
I struggle to see how the team has "done that" in terms of building out the team. Plus with all the coaching drama, I am not even sure they have the most basic foundational piece of proper leadership and culture.
That's not exactly fair. They did make the playoffs in year one had Devito starting half the games in Year 2. And he somehow went on a 3 game winning streak which made absolutely no sense. With a real QB this team would have been in the playoffs again.
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 26, 2024, 12:54:35 PMThat's not exactly fair. They did make the playoffs in year one had Devito starting half the games in Year 2. And he somehow went on a 3 game winning streak which made absolutely no sense. With a real QB this team would have been in the playoffs again.
If you believe the NFL's worst team for supporting their QB, just needed a QB to contend, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion. I can't help but remember that the terrible protection contributed to all those injuries, they just weren't "bad luck"
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 12:57:57 PMIf you believe the NFL's worst team for supporting their QB, just needed a QB to contend, then all I can say is you are entitled to your opinion. I can't help but remember that the terrible protection contributed to all those injuries, they just weren't "bad luck"
He gets hurt every year though. An almost competent QB snuck them into the playoffs the year before with a worse cast of characters than this one. If they had gotten actually competent QB play it's not that far of a leap to suggest they would again make the playoffs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 12:43:42 PMOf the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB. Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).
If you expand this out to the teams from last week. 3 (the Bucs, Packers, and Bills) had solid teams before acquiring their QB and only the Texans had a weak team before getting their QB (although they acquired talent and a good coach while acquiring their QB)
They all had good QBs from before! They went and made QB moves. The Packers ? They had first ballot hall of famer at QB who they would have gladly kept if they didn't get fed up with his wishy-washy attitude about retiring.
The 49ers had Jimmy G. who they traded for; took them to a SB; and went to get a starting job on another team. And they have not been back since. They also waited till the last pick of the draft to get their QB? They also brought in 2 others; one which was on a scrap heap the other they used 2 1 rnd picks for.
THe Ravens had Flacco who they already won a SB with, and recently came back from off his couch at age 37 or whatever to lead the Browns to a decent showing and get into the postseason at least. Lets see if the L Jackson led Ravens can duplicate what the Flacco led Ravens have done i,e, win a SB.
The Bucs? Yea they were just waiting for Tom Brady to finally hand it up so they could find Baker Mayfield on his 3rd team.
It sounds to me like 0% of the teams you are citing were good teams that built their teams up first to get "their" QB. With the exception of Goff, who was clear cut a QB-led rebuild-- all the others were already good teams WITH GOOD QBs already there. That is a far cry from a 5 win team running it back again with an over-paid back-up QB in hopes of building something together.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 10:47:26 AMObviously I disagree with your interpretation.
The major problem with this team since Eli got old is the QB position. Every other role has been turned over multiple times to no effect.
Either way, the supporting cast was extremely weak when they invested first round picks in Thibs, Neal, and Banks, second round picks in Robinson and JMS, and third round picks in Ezeudu, Flott, and Hyatt. There is no reason to believe, outside of blind faith, that if the Schoen regime continues to draft the way it has, that the supporting cast will improve to a championship or near championship level... which is the entire point of all of this.
Although, in the case of the Giants, perhaps winning a championship isn't the primary goal. I was listening to a podcast the other day, I think it was Lombardi, and he was talking about how Bill Walsh used to say he was only competing with about 6 other teams for championships. According to Lombardi, the other teams are primarily focused on keeping their jobs rather than building a program.
The Giants primary issues are first bad culture which allows for low expectations and excuse making. Second, poor QB play. And third, lack of talent and player development.
This is an organization that spins its wheels so consistently, they cut Kevin Zeitler so they could sign Kyle Rudolph.
Watch how quickly things change if they're able to get Jayden Daniels. The players they do have are going to look so much better.
Doc: You make a very good argument for drafting a QB.
I was not arguing for or against you but pointing out that the original post has little to do with your issue.
I do get what you're saying, but disagree because our team has trouble establishing the running game, AND our OL does not give ANY of our QB's enough time to throw the ball, AND our receivers are not consistently open.
Those three items are hallmarks of a bad team in today's NFL.
Your best argument, IMO, is that when you are drafting high, it's wise to take a player most teams would take if they were picking that high.
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 12:43:42 PMOf the 4 teams in the conference championship, three (49ers, Ravens, Chiefs) all had good teams before acquiring their QB. Only the Lions had a poor team when they acquired Goff (a QB who had already developed).
Rich: IMO this point is absolutely true and vital to Schoen's next moves.
Unfortunately, those who don't want to be convinced can't be convinced.
I do not think drafting a QB is going to make the offensive line block better for both the run and the pass, nor is it going to get the receivers open more consistently, nor is it going to help them catch the ball.
Bob
It is like I am in the twilight zone when it comes to Giants fans and Daniel Jones. I cannot think of one player in my sports watching lifetime -- IN ANY SPORT-- where there was such a dedication to a player who so clearly sucks.
Flacco was there for years , since he was a rookie. They won a SB with him. He played till he had a season ending injury.
The Bills had Tyrod Taylor barely a .500 team with him at QB for 3 seasons. That is building first? Sounds like they got a QB first and built later.
Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 01:33:00 PMIt is like I am in the twilight zone when it comes to Giants fans and Daniel Jones. I cannot think of one player in my sports watching lifetime -- IN ANY SPORT-- where there was such a dedication to a player who so clearly sucks.
Fletch, in your case, comments like this one remind me of how you said you admired Aaron Rodgers more because he lied and slandered another person. That sort of drove home to me what your values are and so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these intellectually dishonest comments.
I can't help but notice you don't see people being accused of being Jones haters, but it is not uncommon that we see some variation of the "Jones lover" attack. I guess one side values intellectual honesty and critical thinking more than the other side. ;)
Quote from: Fletch on January 26, 2024, 01:33:00 PMIt is like I am in the twilight zone when it comes to Giants fans and Daniel Jones. I cannot think of one player in my sports watching lifetime -- IN ANY SPORT-- where there was such a dedication to a player who so clearly sucks.
Fletch: Giving a big contract to Jones was a statement by Schoen.
My interpretation is Schoen believes Daniel Jones is good enough to win if he gets some help.
"Help" is not a last-place OL, nor the so-so WR corps all three QB's have to work with on a daily basis.
I think it's more likely a QB already on the team (or a free agent acquired in the off-season) will take Jones' job than the likelihood that Schoen will pic a QB (in the first round).
The only exception, IMO, is... if a QB he would have taken if he had the number-one over-all pick is still there when it's his turn, he knows he'd be a damn fool not to take him (and so he will).
Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 26, 2024, 01:43:14 PMFletch, in your case, comments like this one remind me of how you said you admired Aaron Rodgers more because he lied and slandered another person. That sort of drove home to me what your values are and so I guess I shouldn't be surprised by these intellectually dishonest comments.
I can't help but notice you don't see people being accused of being Jones haters, but it is not uncommon that we see some variation of the "Jones lover" attack. I guess one side values intellectual honesty and critical thinking more than the other side. ;)
I said I admired Rodgers more....? That was not my intention if I did. Not to rehash this again but, I thought A Rodgers joke was funny. And I do not care for this holier-than-thou BS coming from a comedian guy who reminds me of every immature frat guy from college.
If that were someone saying that about you, you would reprimand them for a personal attack. You do not think that is a little hypocritical.?
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 26, 2024, 01:47:43 PMMy interpretation is Schoen believes Daniel Jones is good enough to win if he gets some help.
Bob,
Does Schoen still believe that? Or did he believe it at the time?
Or did he sign Jones to as flexible a contract as he could get away with because he didn't really have a lot of other options?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 26, 2024, 01:56:50 PMBob,
Does Schoen still believe that? Or did he believe it at the time?
Or did he sign Jones to as flexible a contract as he could get away with because he didn't really have a lot of other options?
DB: That's the "$64,000 Question" (as they used to say back in the stone age).
Regardless of whether the owner(s) got involved in the Jones decision, my guess is Schoen now views that issue as SETTLED and all of his future actions will be based on treating it as the correct decision.
We don't know the answers to each of your questions (all good points) but I think it's safe to assume Schoen will work with the "Jones is our guy" point of view in making all subsequent decisions (unless he's planning to commit GM hara-kiri).
Bob
A sharp unencumbered GM could take that #6 pick and trade it twice moving down. We need lots mo players. And talent evaluators.
Schoen should take a lesson from the former Jets GM who passed on drafting Pat Mahomes because he overrated his in house QB (Hackenberg) and assumed he could easily draft a QB the following year if things didn't work out (Darnold). It didn't matter that the player the Jets drafted was an All Pro talent and foundational piece at the time (Jamal Adams).
It's very difficult to come back from passing on a great QB when you don't have one. I don't know if Schoen will have the opportunity to draft a great QB this year, but if he does and chooses not to, that decision will be permanently attached to him.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 25, 2024, 03:01:21 PMTo no one's surprise.
And it's why drafting a QB this year would be an absolute waste. The pool is just not that talented beyond the top 2, and they'd be playing alongside the worst supporting cast in the league.
Spend the next 2 years righting the ship, then be in a position to compete in 2026.
So you don't think us having the worst Qb play in the NFL had no bearing on the supporting cast?
A skill team of Barkley, Waller, Slayton, Hyatt, and Robinson is not bad and actually pretty good. The one getting them the ball is the problem. Hence everyone wanting us to get that Qb you think would be a waste.
Why continue building a team and losing when you can jump start your franchise with a franchise qb on a cheap deal. We have talent. Guess we'll just go a few more seasons with Slayton wandering around open deep for half the season.
In this Era of football the only thing that matters is the Qb, so I just don't understand the hesitancy to draft one after the Sh Show we saw all this season and frankly since Eli got old like
@Doc16LT56 said.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 26, 2024, 02:29:12 PMSchoen should take a lesson from the former Jets GM who passed on drafting Pat Mahomes because he overrated his in house QB (Hackenberg) and assumed he could easily draft a QB the following year if things didn't work out (Darnold). It didn't matter that the player the Jets drafted was an All Pro talent and foundational piece at the time (Jamal Adams).
It's very difficult to come back from passing on a great QB when you don't have one. I don't know if Schoen will have the opportunity to draft a great QB this year, but if he does and chooses not to, that decision will be permanently attached to him.
Good exemplary point, Doc.
Those who are comfortable passing on an opportunity to draft a QB the team rates very highly because they want to build up other areas of the team first seem to under-appreciate the rarity of having that opportunity.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 26, 2024, 02:43:05 PMSo you don't think us having the worst Qb play in the NFL had no bearing on the supporting cast?
A skill team of Barkley, Waller, Slayton, Hyatt, and Robinson is not bad and actually pretty good. The one getting them the ball is the problem. Hence everyone wanting us to get that Qb you think would be a waste.
Barkley didn't even rush for 1,000 yards and averaged less than 4 YPC. That is not "pretty good". Waller was oft-injured and rarely productive. Robinson is far too inconsistent to be considered "pretty good". And Hyatt has a long way to go. Slayton is the only one of the group who performed pretty good.
No one is saying the QB play doesn't have an impact, but they own a good chunk of their subpar performance themselves, and it's group that needs to be upgraded pretty significantly.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 26, 2024, 05:32:52 PMBarkley didn't even rush for 1,000 yards and averaged less than 4 YPC. That is not "pretty good". Waller was oft-injured and rarely productive. Robinson is far too inconsistent to be considered "pretty good". And Hyatt has a long way to go. Slayton is the only one of the group who performed pretty good.
No one is saying the QB play doesn't have an impact, but they own a good chunk of their subpar performance themselves, and it's group that needs to be upgraded pretty significantly.
Stringer: I agree 100 percent with your analysis.
Neither of us believes QB is blameless, but there is more "blame" to put on the receivers than the three QB's.
Further, the most blame IMO should be on the OL. The pass blocking was consistent... consistently horrible.
Bob