This was something I read recently . Macadoo was not a very good coach for the Giants but he was a big believer in Patrick Mahomes. He went alone in 2017 to see his pro day workout. In that draft the Giants drafted 23rd and there was nothing written that he tried to convince the Giants to trade up to number 10 where KC picked Mahomes . If I am not mistaken , didn't the Chiefs trade up to draft Mahomes?
In that draft Myles Garrett and Christian McCaffery were top 10 picks , Garrett , number 1 .
In 2017, the Giants still had Eli , but his tenure was coming to an end Mahomes did sit behind Alex Smith for a year and he could have done the same with the Giants instead of Geno Smith.
The Giants drafted Evan Engram with their 23rd pick
Imagine the Giants now with Mahomes as their QB ?
I would take McAdoo as an OC in a second. The man knew his QB's.
KC did trade up for Mahomes. Chicago traded up that year from #3 to #2 to draft Trubisky and left Mahomes on the board. Guessing that one still stings for Bears fans. Its always interesting looking at these drafts in retrospect when you see the Corey Davis and Solomon Thomas picks in the top 5 while there was some guys on the board who would go on to have much better careers.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 31, 2024, 09:39:35 AMThis was something I read recently . Macadoo was not a very good coach for the Giants but he was a big believer in Patrick Mahomes. He went alone in 2017 to see his pro day workout. In that draft the Giants drafted 23rd and there was nothing written that he tried to convince the Giants to trade up to number 10 where KC picked Mahomes . If I am not mistaken , didn't the Chiefs trade up to draft Mahomes?
In that draft Myles Garrett and Christian McCaffery were top 10 picks , Garrett , number 1 .
In 2017, the Giants still had Eli , but his tenure was coming to an end Mahomes did sit behind Alex Smith for a year and he could have done the same with the Giants instead of Geno Smith.
The Giants drafted Evan Engram with their 23rd pick
Imagine the Giants now with Mahomes as their QB ?
Mahomes went to a great team with perhaps the best HC (in terms of developing QB talent) in this century. There is an assumption that Mahommes could have gone to any team and been great. I can't help but wonder if Mahommes went to a poorly run franchise (like the Giants), he would have just been another in a long line of failed college QBs coming from the spread air-raid system.
Mahomes without Reid, Hill, and Kelce and having McAdoo, our OL, and our GM are two completely different players.
McAdoo is one of the worst coaches in our history.
Mahomes wouldn't be as good in other situations but would be way better than any one else.
We saw it in the Super Bowl loss. He had two backup OTs and was making throws while sideways in the air and WRs were dropping them. One of those tackles was a former Giant, Remmers.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 09:50:29 AMMahomes went to a great team with perhaps the best HC (in terms of developing QB talent) in this century. There is an assumption that Mahommes could have gone to any team and been great. I can't help but wonder if Mahommes went to a poorly run franchise (like the Giants), he would have just been another in a long line of failed college QBs coming from the spread air-raid system.
Rich: Mahomes greatest asset - the BEST all-time IMO at "navigating" within the pocket AND knowing when to leave the pocket AND knowing where to go next when leaving the pocket AND extending plays after leaving the pocket.
Some other QB's excelled in one or more of the above sub-categories, but none have done all with the type of excellence Mahomes displays.
Why post this here? Because (as
@uconnjack8 implied above) Mahomes would have made even the worst offense have the worst offensive line in the league into a solid unit. Of this I have no doubt. He's the Derek Jeter of the NFL.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 31, 2024, 11:44:05 AMRich: Mahomes greatest asset - the BEST all-time IMO at "navigating" within the pocket AND knowing when to leave the pocket AND knowing where to go next when leaving the pocket AND extending plays after leaving the pocket.
Some other QB's excelled in one or more of the above sub-categories, but none have done all with the type of excellence Mahomes displays.
Why post this here? Because (as @uconnjack8 implied above) he would have made even the worst offense have the worst offensive line in the league into a solid unit. Of this I have no doubt. He's the Derek Jeter of the NFL.
Bob
Bob,
I think you overestimate the ability of QBs to develop in the NFL while they are running for their lives. It's not like Mahomes was demonstrating this trait in college, or he would have been drafted much higher.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 11:56:50 AMBob,
I think you overestimate the ability of QBs to develop in the NFL while they are running for their lives. It's not like Mahomes was demonstrating this trait in college, or he would have been drafted much higher.
To Bob's point, it's what makes Mahomes the unique and special talent that he is. Jones has been running for his life for 5 seasons. And we still need a QB.
Quote from: T200 on January 31, 2024, 12:01:18 PMTo Bob's point, it's what makes Mahomes the unique and special talent that he is. Jones has been running for his life for 5 seasons. And we still need a QB.
The thing with that special talent, is we saw Mahommes lose a Super Bowl when he found himself under heavy pressure. Hell, the Chiefs have invested heavily in their O-line since then because it appears they don't believe Mahomes has a Super Power when it comes to making poor O-lines functional
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 31, 2024, 11:44:05 AMRich: Mahomes greatest asset - the BEST all-time IMO at "navigating" within the pocket AND knowing when to leave the pocket AND knowing where to go next when leaving the pocket AND extending plays after leaving the pocket.
Some other QB's excelled in one or more of the above sub-categories, but none have done all with the type of excellence Mahomes displays.
Why post this here? Because (as @uconnjack8 implied above) he would have made even the worst offense have the worst offensive line in the league into a solid unit. Of this I have no doubt. He's the Derek Jeter of the NFL.
Bob
Absolutely, Bob. We agree for a change. Mahomes, if he played MLB, would be an all star. If he played basketball, he would be an all-star. He is a freak athlete whose instincts to find ways to win are off the charts. He would go to any NFL team and instantly make them winners. Not necessarily Supe Bowl champs but winners.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 12:03:13 PMThe thing with that special talent, is we saw Mahommes lose a Super Bowl when he found himself under heavy pressure. Hell, the Chiefs have invested heavily in their O-line since then because it appears they don't believe Mahomes has a Super Power when it comes to making poor O-lines functional
First... Mahomes didn't lose the SB all by himself. If you're going to saddle him with that *honor*, then it's only right to say Mahomes GOT THEM TO THE SB with that depleted offensive line.
Second... if Jones had that special talent and lost a SB, I'd be very happy with him.
Last... It may be a matter of semantics but I don't think Mahomes makes a poor offensive line functional. To me, it's more that he minimizes the liability of the line with his pocket presence, field awareness, poise, and arm talent. They lost a SB in large part because of the offensive line. It needed to be upgraded because they were poor, not because Mahomes couldn't make them better.
Quote from: T200 on January 31, 2024, 12:10:26 PMFirst... Mahomes didn't lose the SB all by himself. If you're going to saddle him with that *honor*, then it's only right to say Mahomes GOT THEM TO THE SB with that depleted offensive line.
Second... if Jones had that special talent and lost a SB, I'd be very happy with him.
Last... It may be a matter of semantics but I don't think Mahomes makes a poor offensive line functional. To me, it's more that he minimizes the liability of the line with his pocket presence, field awareness, poise, and arm talent. They lost a SB in large part because of the offensive line. It needed to be upgraded because they were poor, not because Mahomes couldn't make them better.
Tim,
To your second point, I don't see this issue through Daniel Jones. You could have just as easily put the Jets (or any other bad team), and my comments are equally valid.
My views are based on an observation that when good teams draft QBs, their success rate is significantly higher than when bad teams draft QBs. It makes a lot of sense when one appreciates just how much development is needed for a college QB to become a successful NFL QB.
Look at the teams that had non-first-round QB flourish: the Eagles (Hurts), the Cowboys (Prescott), the 49ers (Purdy), and you could go all the way back to the Pats and Tom Brady. These were all talented teams skilled at player development. So, to me, it's not like 31 other teams (and the team drafting them) got the scouting wrong. Rather, when you have good coaching and solid talent, you have a much higher success rate developing drafted QBs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 12:52:50 PMTim,
To your second point, I don't see this issue through Daniel Jones. You could have just as easily put the Jets (or any other bad team), and my comments are equally valid.
My views are based on an observation that when good teams draft QBs, their success rate is significantly higher than when bad teams draft QBs. It makes a lot of sense when one appreciates just how much development is needed for a college QB to become a successful NFL QB.
Look at the teams that had non-first-round QB flourish: the Eagles (Hurts), the Cowboys (Prescott), the 49ers (Purdy), and you could go all the way back to the Pats and Tom Brady. These were all talented teams skilled at player development. So, to me, it's not like 31 other teams (and the team drafting them) got the scouting wrong. Rather, when you have good coaching and solid talent, you have a much higher success rate developing drafted QBs.
Rich,
I was only speaking to the point about Mahomes being a special talent. He lifts the play of his teammates. I mentioned Jones because he is still our starting QB... until he isn't. I would be over the moon with Jones if he had Mahomes-like powers.
Your mentioning of the environment a rookie QB is drafted into is a big factor into a team's overall success, and noted, but it's also a little off-topic with regards to the talents and gifts that Mahomes possesses.
Quote from: T200 on January 31, 2024, 01:17:38 PMRich,
I was only speaking to the point about Mahomes being a special talent. He lifts the play of his teammates. I mentioned Jones because he is still our starting QB... until he isn't. I would be over the moon with Jones if he had Mahomes-like powers.
Your mentioning of the environment a rookie QB is drafted into is a big factor into a team's overall success, and noted, but it's also a little off-topic with regards to the talents and gifts that Mahomes possesses.
I see things differently. I consider the "QB lifts up his teammates" a bit of a myth. From what I have seen, teammates tend to lift up the quarterback, especially when they are developing. It's not to say that a good QB can't make an offensive lineman's or receiver's job easier, but it's a two-way street.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 01:21:32 PMI see things differently. I consider the "QB lifts up his teammates" a bit of a myth. From what I have seen, teammates tend to lift up the quarterback, especially when they are developing. It's not to say that a good QB can't make an offensive lineman's or receiver's job easier, but it's a two-way street.
Most definitely a two-way street. But in the "lost SB" situation above, I think it's fair to say that Mahomes did more of the heavy lifting than his line did over the course of the season.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 31, 2024, 09:39:35 AMImagine the Giants now with Mahomes as their QB ?
Hell, no! I can't imagine it. It's hard to imagine much of anything making sense where the Giants are concerned.
Think about it. Why were the Giants picking as late as 24th in that 2017 Draft rather than in the top-10 as most often they are? Because it followed the McAdoodoodle Giants now almost inexplicable 11-win season, the most in the past 15 years, before crashing back the next year to a 30 years worst 3-13. Neither irony nor good fortune has been a Giants fan for what now is well over a decade.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on January 31, 2024, 02:29:01 PMHell, no! I can't imagine it. It's hard to imagine much of anything making sense where the Giants are concerned.
Think about it. Why were the Giants picking as late as 24th in that 2017 Draft rather than in the top-10 as most often they are? Because it followed the McAdoodoodle Giants now almost inexplicable 11-win season, the most in the past 15 years, before crashing back the next year to a 30 years worst 3-13. Neither irony nor good fortune has been a Giants fan for what now is well over a decade.
Cheers!
It wasn't that hard to understand the 11-game season. Reese spent like a drunken sailor in free agency, and they had enough talent to make it to the playoffs. Of course, as mercenaries tend to do, their motivation faded over time.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 31, 2024, 02:33:19 PMIt wasn't that hard to understand the 11-game season. Reese spent like a drunken sailor in free agency, and they had enough talent to make it to the playoffs. Of course, as mercenaries tend to do, their motivation faded over time.
I must say that's an interesting take on the matter, Rich. So, I reckon that the "boat trip" must have signaled the end of mercenary motivation. <:-P
Cheers!