Carl Banks routinely talks with Giants coaches, so he speaks as a man who knows things (but will not directly report his inside knowledge)
"I am, for transparency, a big Daniel Jones fan. But I will be the first to say that he took a step back this past year," Banks told Mail Sport.
"But I'll also add context to that and say, I can understand why. His offensive line was awful. He took so many hits early. And people don't want to understand that quarterbacks under duress — and I would challenge any individual who just continues to criticize the effectiveness of a quarterback who continues to get hit, I would challenge you to stand anywhere and get hit by a 2×4, about five times in a row and see if you can make great decisions."
The Giants' offensive line surrendered 85 sacks this past season, the second-most in NFL history. And all three of the team's quarterbacks — Jones, Tyrod Taylor, and Tommy DeVito — suffered injuries as a result of the porous line. It was undeniably a factor in the poor quarterback play.
"It does impair your decision-making because I was one of those guys who was doing that to quarterbacks, so I know how it impacts them," Banks said. "But he has to play better when he gets healthy. He will have to resume where he was starting to ascend to, and if he doesn't, they're gonna move on."
https://giantswire.usatoday.com/2024/02/04/carl-banks-new-york-giants-daniel-jones-has-to-play-better-2024/?taid=65bf6f9250540e000111f0af&utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter
I think if anyone is going to try to make conciliatory statements about Jones' season by passing the buck to the supporting cast, it is not particularly interesting unless they explain why the other two QBs on the roster, both of whom make either a very small or, in DeVito's case, a very tiny fraction of what Jones makes, were both clearly better than Jones in 2023 with the same teammates Jones had.
I would be more than interested in hearing about, in detail, the "step back" last year.
Rather than repeating the same stuff re: the line.
Yes, the line was awful. But also, what's ignored, despite it being raised, was how DJ walked into/created some sacks himself. The Seattle game was an example. 11 of which but 5 or 6 according to a PFF podcast were created by Jones, rather than the line.
It's always the fault of someone else.
We all love C Banks, but he is in the bubble just like we are. I value more opinions of outsiders whose vision are not clouded by their loyalty to their team. The offensive line excuse is a broken record. That is not to say they weren't terrible, but there comes a time when you, who are making an enormous amount of money, need to rise above the flaws of others. It never happened.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 04, 2024, 08:22:24 AMI think if anyone is going to try to make conciliatory statements about Jones' season by passing the buck to the supporting cast, it is not particularly interesting unless they explain why the other two QBs on the roster, both of whom make either a very small or, in DeVito's case, a very tiny fraction of what Jones makes, were both clearly better than Jones in 2023 with the same teammates Jones had.
@EDjohnst1981 @Doc16LT56 @katkavage If you are going to make a claim about other QBs being clearly better than Jones, one should do the homework and compare the performances of QBs along with the performance. of their supporting casts (as you dismissed supporting cast claims by Banks).
I did the homework, and frankly, the claims about the other QBs being "clearly better" simply don't hold up.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=68971.0
85 sacks this past season, the second-most in NFL history
We should be able to get a solid guard at 39. Evan Neal at tackle is the 2nd biggest decision after QB in my view. Do we pluck a tackle at 6 ( if top 3 qb not on board) or grab WR? I expect we will address the o line in FA and rd 2.
Quote from: gregf on February 04, 2024, 09:14:32 AM85 sacks this past season, the second-most in NFL history
We should be able to get a solid guard at 39. Evan Neal at tackle is the 2nd biggest decision after QB in my view. Do we pluck a tackle at 6 ( if top 3 qb not on board) or grab WR? I expect we will address the o line in FA and rd 2.
This is where the new O-line coach is going to earn his pay. He will need to tell the team if Neal can become an NFL caliber RT or if he needs to move to guard (and hopefully improve)
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:16:07 AMThis is where the new O-line coach is going to earn his pay. He will need to tell the team if Neal can become an NFL caliber RT or if he needs to move to guard (and hopefully improve)
The O line can be addressed and fixed concurrently with improving the QB position as well.
Quote from: katkavage on February 04, 2024, 09:18:25 AMThe O line can be addressed and fixed concurrently with improving the QB position as well.
This claim may or may not be true. If there is a QB 4 that the Giants can draft that is a franchise QB, then yes, you can hopefully fix both. If, on the other hand, the Giants need one of the elite 3, they will either need to pay a king's ransom to move up (in which case they will not have the draft capital to fix the line), or they can't trade up (in which case they don't improve QB).
Carl Banks has no credibility when it comes to the Giants players. If he's so down on the OL he should start naming names. Is he ready to criticize Evan Neal and JMS or is he not allowed to do so just yet.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:12:30 AM@EDjohnst1981 @Doc16LT56 @katkavage
If you are going to make a claim about other QBs being clearly better than Jones, one should do the homework and compare the performances of QBs along with the performance. of their supporting casts (as you dismissed supporting cast claims by Banks).
I did the homework, and frankly, the claims about the other QBs being "clearly better" simply don't hold up.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=68971.0
I watched all the games. I know what I saw.
You can squint your eyes and try to parse it any way you want, but the bottom line is they all played with the same supporting cast, and the other two each put up objectively better numbers. There is no getting around that.
With Jones making $40mm per and the other two being an aging, career journeyman backup and an undrafted walk-on who wasn't even that good in college, it frankly shouldn't have been remotely close.
I'm kind of done with the Jones debates. We're going into year six with him for crying out loud. It has been pure hell. Or at least it has been for any Giants fan whose primary concern is winning and not a personal agenda with a specific player. Anyone who wants to continue to cling to Jones is obviously entitled to do so, but the writing is on the wall. And it's not just because he can't stay on the field.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:22:45 AMThis claim may or may not be true. If there is a QB 4 that the Giants can draft that is a franchise QB, then yes, you can hopefully fix both. If, on the other hand, the Giants need one of the elite 3, they will either need to pay a king's ransom to move up (in which case they will not have the draft capital to fix the line), or they can't trade up (in which case they don't improve QB).
We shall see what the Giants' GM does this off season. His decisions this off season could determine the fate of his head coach and his own tenure. He has much on the line.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 04, 2024, 09:23:57 AMCarl Banks has no credibility when it comes to the Giants players. If he's so down on the OL he should start naming names. Is he ready to criticize Evan Neal and JMS or is he not allowed to do so just yet.
Banks has a great deal of credibility with me. First, I understand what Banks' situation is, so I understand what he can and can't say. I also appreciate if you can listen with that in mind, there is a great deal of insider information and insights that can be gained.
It's like listening to the two beat reporters who act as Giants' mouthpieces; if you know how to interpret what they say, there is a great deal of value.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:28:23 AMBanks has a great deal of credibility with me. First, I understand what Banks' situation is, so I understand what he can and can't say. I also appreciate if you can listen with that in mind, there is a great deal of insider information and insights that can be gained.
It's like listening to the two beat reporters who act as Giants' mouthpieces; if you know how to interpret what they say, there is a great deal of value.
Banks is Pat Hanlon with actual football knowledge. Listen to him and understand he is in the business of selling you on the team rather than teaching you anything.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 04, 2024, 09:49:30 AMBanks is Pat Hanlon with actual football knowledge. Listen to him and understand he is in the business of selling you on the team rather than teaching you anything.
It sounds like you haven't listened to Banks all that much. I listen to all his podcasts and follow his Twitter and he isn't even remotely like Pat Hanlon
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 04, 2024, 09:26:42 AMI'm kind of done with the Jones debates. We're going into year six with him for crying out loud. It has been pure hell. Or at least it has been for any Giants fan whose primary concern is winning and not a personal agenda with a specific player.
Yep. QB hell to be exact.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:50:51 AMIt sounds like you haven't listened to Banks all that much. I listen to all his podcasts and follow his Twitter and he isn't even remotely like Pat Hanlon
That tracks.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 04, 2024, 09:49:30 AMBanks is Pat Hanlon with actual football knowledge. Listen to him and understand he is in the business of selling you on the team rather than teaching you anything.
Also, Pat Hanlon went silent years ago. He found his brash style didn't mesh well with social media. Hanlon is another example of Mara's valuing loyalty over competency. The whole fiasco with Wink showed the Giants' PR chops were sorely lacking, yet Hanlon still collects his salary as VP of Communications
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 04, 2024, 09:53:12 AMThat tracks.
Thank you, I pride myself on how much football and Giants information I gather on a weekly basis (with proper consideration to the biases and limitations of the sources).
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:22:45 AMThis claim may or may not be true. If there is a QB 4 that the Giants can draft that is a franchise QB, then yes, you can hopefully fix both. If, on the other hand, the Giants need one of the elite 3, they will either need to pay a king's ransom to move up (in which case they will not have the draft capital to fix the line), or they can't trade up (in which case they don't improve QB).
Maybe I am in the minority or maybe not but the Giants should target Joe Alt with the number 6 pick, move Neal to left Guard where he would play next to Andrew Thomas, sign a right guard in free agency , hopefully Phillips can come back and sign him for depth.
I know there is love for Nabers, Odunze etc for our pick , but Jones is going to be the QB in 2024, if he is ready medically, and see what he can do with a decent OL . Most likely McConkey, Walker, Franklin, MItchell , Legette will be available in the second round as well as possibly a QB .
We can live without a number 1 receiver but we cannot live without a decent OL and that is where our priorities should lie, in the draft and in FA.
This is just one person's opinion which is worth or worthless as anyones opinion
I'm not so sure the Giants pick a QB in the first round but if Nix or McCarthy drop low enough, I can see them trading up from the second or if either falls, I can see them pick. Still, it's very possible they don't and just continue to build the team. If you read into Carl's language, it's in line with Schoen's comments. There is tremendous respect for Jones and the organization wants him to succeed as the face of the franchise. I don't know what the heck happened to Jones in 2023 to fall so far even in consideration of the poor protection and absence of a Run Game. It all just overwhelmed him. As for TT and TD, TT has years more experience in different situations so his quick game helped him and TD did have a better version of that Oline. As for the sacks? The % that TD absorbed was a contributing factor to that near record setting number from his initial starts.
Keep an eye on the 2025 Class.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 11:24:25 AMI'm not so sure the Giants pick a QB in the first round but if Nix or McCarthy drop low enough, I can see them trading up from the second or if either falls, I can see them pick. Still, it's very possible they don't and just continue to build the team. If you read into Carl's language, it's in line with Schoen's comments. There is tremendous respect for Jones and the organization wants him to succeed as the face of the franchise. I don't know what the heck happened to Jones in 2023 to fall so far even in consideration of the poor protection and absence of a Run Game. It all just overwhelmed him. As for TT and TD, TT has years more experience in different situations so his quick game helped him and TD did have a better version of that Oline. As for the sacks? The % that TD absorbed was a contributing factor to that near record setting number from his initial starts.
Keep an eye on the 2025 Class.
It's sort of funny the fans and pundits, who were previously strong critics, were quick to hop on the Jones is the bust train last season.
If you take a step back, Schoen and Daboll spent all of 2022 evaluating Jones. Jones essentially played in 5 games, with 3 being terrible, one against the Dolphins being pretty good, and he had an elite performance against the Cardinals. So, after spending an entire season (plus a second training camp) evaluating Jones, was it really realistic to think the team would do a 180 on their views of Jones for just three really poor games under the worst conditions?
My belief as to the need to move on from Jones is the injury issues are just too much for me. However, the Giants don't seem to care about injury-prone. If they did, they never would have traded for Waller.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 11:38:10 AMIt's sort of funny the fans and pundits, who were previously strong critics, were quick to hope on the Jones is the bust train last season.
If you take a step back, Schoen and Daboll spent all of 2022 evaluating Jones. Jones essentially played in 5 games, with 3 being terrible, one against the Dolphins being pretty good, and he had an elite performance against the Cardinals. So, after spending an entire season (plus a second training camp) evaluating Jones, was it really realistic to think the team would do a 180 on their views of Jones for just three really poor games under the worst conditions?
My belief as to the need to move on from Jones is the injury issues are just too much for me. However, the Giants don't seem to care about injury-prone. If they did, they never would have traded for Waller.
Let's see how this devastating injury affects Jones ability to run. That's a factor. Although his propensity to missing games goes against the grain of dependability.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 11:42:48 AMLet's see how this devastating injury affects Jones ability to run. That's a factor. Although his propensity to missing games goes against the grain of dependability.
That will be interesting. There have been plenty (like Barkley) who lose something after a major injury. On the other side WonDale didn't seem worse for wear when he came back from his ACL.
Jones is an injury prone QB that can't be relied on to stay healthy and when healthy, he isn't exactly lighting it up! A backup plan at the QB position should be at the top of the to do list. No matter what Banks or anyone else thinks/says.
Quote from: sooners56 on February 04, 2024, 11:51:41 AMJones is an injury prone QB that can't be relied on to stay healthy and when healthy, he isn't exactly lighting it up! A backup plan at the QB position should be at the top of the to do list. No matter what Banks or anyone else thinks/says.
Good point. It only matters what you think/say. ;)
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 11:54:29 AMGood point. It only matters what you think/say. ;)
I should add that it applies to everyone. We all pretty much believe our own perspective really counts. Lol
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 11:54:29 AMGood point. It only matters what you think/say. ;)
Genuinely curious on your takes on these questions.
Did NFL teams figure Jones out last year which amplified the poor play we saw last season?
The lack of a deep game has been an ongoing issue for Jones in the Daboll Era, and it's not the offense because we see TT and TD take those shots, so why doesn't Jones take those?
What did Daboll/Schoen see in Jones in 2022 that didn't translate to 2023 and why did it not translate despite adding weapons.
I think this is just a couple of the questions the organization need to figure out before deciding what's next at QB1.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 04, 2024, 09:12:30 AM@EDjohnst1981 @Doc16LT56 @katkavage
If you are going to make a claim about other QBs being clearly better than Jones, one should do the homework and compare the performances of QBs along with the performance. of their supporting casts (as you dismissed supporting cast claims by Banks).
I did the homework, and frankly, the claims about the other QBs being "clearly better" simply don't hold up.
https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=68971.0
Tyrod and Devito won more games. They moved the ball downfield better and consistently. They certainly did not panic with the same frequency as Jones who was deer in the headlights all season long. Not even close.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 04, 2024, 12:13:54 PMGenuinely curious on yiur takes on these questions.
Did NFL teams figure Jones out last year which amplified the poor play we saw last season?
Yes, it was a factor to some extent. So was the play calling.
The lack of a deep game has been an ongoing issue for Jones in the Daboll Era, and it's not the offense because we see TT and TD take those shots, so why doesn't Jones take those?
He is not good under pressure and is prone to freezing up and either escaping the pocket prematurely, or is slow in processing the break from containment or the play's call progression was to read short to long.
What did Daboll/Schoen see in Jones in 2022 that didn't translate to 2023 and why did it not translate despite adding weapons.
The Offensive Line had multiple injuries with poor backups and the players were not prepared to start the season at the same intensity level as Dallas, which had a psychological effect on the entire team. They were expecting a potent Offense with all the weapons they brought in.
I think this is just a couple of the questions the organization need to figure out before deciding what's next at QB1.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 12:49:46 PMHe is not good under pressure and is prone to freezing up and either escaping the pocket prematurely, or is slow in processing the break from containment or the play's call progression was to read short to long.
This is the position. If he can't do this then our offense is gonna be stuck in neutral until we find somebody who can.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on February 04, 2024, 01:28:09 PMThis is the position. If he can't do this then our offense is gonna be stuck in neutral until we find somebody who can.
Well it's not up to you or me.
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 11:54:29 AMGood point. It only matters what you think/say. ;)
It's not what I am thinking/saying, it is what Jones has proved so far. In 5 seasons, he has only played a 16 game season once, every other year he
Missed games due to injury. As far as production, his top two TD seasons was his rookie year with 26 TDs combined (great for a rookie) and then just last year with 22 TDs combined (terrible for a 5th year player) so 4 out of 5 seasons he wasn't exactly lighting it up. The facts back up what I think.
Quote from: sooners56 on February 04, 2024, 03:29:16 PMIt's not what I am thinking/saying, it is what Jones has proved so far. In 5 seasons, he has only played a 16 game season once, every other year he
Missed games due to injury. As far as production, his top two TD seasons was his rookie year with 26 TDs combined (great for a rookie) and then just last year with 22 TDs combined (terrible for a 5th year player) so 4 out of 5 seasons he wasn't exactly lighting it up. The facts back up what I think.
I was the first one here to say he wasn't the guy three years ago. So now the facts back me up too. Thank you
Quote from: Ed Vette on February 04, 2024, 03:36:29 PMI was the first one here to say he wasn't the guy three years ago. So now the facts back me up too. Thank you
I was right there with ya Ed. It was fairly easy to see by the eye test.
He's our guy next year and I'm gonna root like hell for him to prove us all wrong. I would love that to be the case and I'd happily take the poundings here. But I don't have much confidence this will happen because ironically, the greatest thing Daniel Jones did for this franchise unfortunately was because of an injury - we were able to evaluate his performance against not one, but 2 other QBs.
Quote from: Trench on February 04, 2024, 04:07:19 PMI was right there with ya Ed. It was fairly easy to see by the eye test.
He's our guy next year and I'm gonna root like hell for him to prove us all wrong. I would love that to be the case and I'd happily take the poundings here. But I don't have much confidence this will happen because ironically, the greatest thing Daniel Jones did for this franchise unfortunately was because of an injury - we were able to evaluate his performance against not one, but 2 other QBs.
I'll root for him too. I was very optimistic coming into 2023 and I know it wasn't all on him.
Company man says company man thing in favor of team owner's golden child.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on February 04, 2024, 08:08:59 PMCompany man says company man thing in favor of team owner's golden child.
That sums it up well. Mara has his pet players (Jones,Barkley.Sheppard etc.) to the detriment of the team. DJ was simply one of the worst qbs in the league when upright last year. He couldn't make the leap into starring role. Pfft. He is a backup like many feared.
5 years is more than enough time to conclude he is mediocre and mired with injuries. The DJ Era is (or should) be brought to a merciful end this year.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on February 04, 2024, 08:22:24 AMI think if anyone is going to try to make conciliatory statements about Jones' season by passing the buck to the supporting cast, it is not particularly interesting unless they explain why the other two QBs on the roster, both of whom make either a very small or, in DeVito's case, a very tiny fraction of what Jones makes, were both clearly better than Jones in 2023 with the same teammates Jones had.
Same teammates yes...same offensive line no.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on February 04, 2024, 08:08:59 PMCompany man says company man thing in favor of team owner's golden child.
If Carl is such a company man then why did he blast the Giants with his "scholarship player" comments saying certain players were held onto for too long? I still do not understand what point he was making when the Giants have cut plenty of players who they drafted and rarely extend anyone.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 05, 2024, 09:58:21 AMIf Carl is such a company man then why did he blast the Giants with his "scholarship player" comments saying certain players were held onto for too long? I still do not understand what point he was making when the Giants have cut plenty of players who they drafted and rarely extend anyone.
That was the old Carl Banks. He believed in public accountability back then. He changed his approach in recent years and now focuses on cheerleading and defending players.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 05, 2024, 10:13:23 AMThat was the old Carl Banks. He believed in public accountability back then. He changed his approach in recent years and now focuses on cheerleading and defending players.
Well if you mean his defense of Thibs I support what he has done. Someone had to stand up to the jerks at WFAN.
Quote from: TDToomer on February 05, 2024, 10:16:18 AMWell if you mean his defense of Thibs I support what he has done. Someone had to stand up to the jerks at WFAN.
He has said on the radio that he avoids criticizing players.
If you guys actually listened to Banks, you would have heard him heavily criticize Ojulari for not being healthy enough to be on the field (he suggested he was dogging it)
We really shouldn't try and shape the world to how we want to see it (by dismissing information that doesn't fit perception) but rather we should reshape perception to fit what we observe.
Banks will only criticize players the front office is okay with criticizing. Let's hear him criticize Evan Neal and JMS since he's so down on the OL.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 05, 2024, 10:24:04 AMBanks will only criticize players the front office is okay with criticizing. Let's hear him criticize Evan Neal and JMS since he's so down on the OL.
Banks spent most of the season criticizing the O-line's failures to pick up stunts and blitzes
He doesn't criticize the players the organization doesn't allow him to criticize. His criticism is generic. He used to target individuals and didn't hold back. The change in his approach is obvious to anyone who has listened to him. He's even talked about it.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on February 05, 2024, 10:27:40 AMHe doesn't criticize the players the organization doesn't allow him to criticize. His criticism is generic. He used to target individuals and didn't hold back. The change in his approach is obvious to anyone who has listened to him. He's even talked about it.
Last offseason, Banks said that none of the WRs in the 2022 season could get open one-on-one and that it made the coach's lives more difficult as they could only scheme them open. He didn't name names, but he told us how the coaches viewed the receivers on the roster.
Well at least this season our WR were able to get open. Perhaps it wasn't the receivers after all
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 05, 2024, 10:39:18 AMLast offseason, Banks said that none of the WRs in the 2022 season could get open one-on-one and that it made the coach's lives more difficult as they could only scheme them open. He didn't name names, but he told us how the coaches viewed the receivers on the roster.
Well we know Golladay was one of them and probably Ritchie James who was viewed as a ST guy thrown into the WR mix with all the injuries and wasn't retained.
With Jones, you are one neck injury away from retirement. Are we ready to rebuild around him and then he gets dropped on his head reinjures his neck and we are back to square one. It's time to cut the cord draft a new guy and build for the future and not keep trying to live in the past.
HOF Bill Polian interviewed Joe Schoen at the Senior Bowl. I listened to the interview. Joe said nothing earth-shattering. After the interview, Bill Polian and the other hosts discussed the Giants. Bill Polian pretty much expressed his view of Daniel Jones in the same way I did; he felt the question wasn't one of talent but one of the ability to stay healthy.
If you have the Sirius phone app I believe it was the 1/31 or 2/1 Late Hits show with the interview. The App allows you to listen to past episodes.
Quote from: MightyGiants on February 05, 2024, 01:01:43 PMHOF Bill Polian interviewed Joe Schoen at the Senior Bowl. I listened to the interview. Joe said nothing earth-shattering. After the interview, Bill Polian and the other hosts discussed the Giants. Bill Polian pretty much expressed his view of Daniel Jones in the same way I did; he felt the question wasn't one of talent but one of the ability to stay healthy.
If you have the Sirius phone app I believe it was the 1/31 or 2/1 Late Hits show with the interview. The App allows you to listen to past episodes.
My biggest question is how much mental damage has been done to Jones. Can he put the damage of 5 years of a beating behind him? IMO his inability to process presnap and in play route progressions through 2023 was a far greater concern than his health.
So many careers hinge on this decision it will be fascinating watching it play out