I hear fans and some pundits expressing views of what the Giants should do in the draft, that, in my opinion, are just not realistic.
1) Trade up for one of the three elite QBs. I think it's a given the QBs are going to go 1, 2, 3, and teams needing a QB are not going to trade away that opportunity.
2) The Giants should draft Nix, McCarthy, or Penix in the second round. I seriously doubt any of them will be there at 2, unless Penix fails his physical.
3) I think this may be an option, but not one the Giants could count on, is the idea of trading back up for one of the three QBs, and even then I think the odds are against any of the second-tier QBs lasting past the early 20s (again, unless Penix flunks his physical)
Now that leaves the following realistic options:
1) Take a second-tier QB at 6
2) The team likes 2 or 3 of the second-tier QBs and they trade down a couple of spots
3) The team bets on a long shot and hopes one of the 3 drops to near the bottom of round one and the team is able to trade up and get him. If they go that way they need a strong plan B.
4) The Giants wait until round 3 or 4 and look at 3rd tier QBs like Rattler, Pratt, or maybe Devin Leary (a bit later)
I think there's a QB in this draft that Schoen and Daboll want to see in Blue. I also think they will do everything reasonable to get him. If he's not available, I don't think they will draft a QB just to have one.
Quote from: T200 on February 06, 2024, 08:52:36 AMI think there's a QB in this draft that Schoen and Daboll want to see in Blue. I also think they will do everything reasonable to get him. If he's not available, I don't think they will draft a QB just to have one.
I agree to an extent. I suspect the Giants see a QB (or more) they want in the top tier, but it's highly unlikely they will be able to get him. I have no idea how they view tier 3, or if there is a diamond in the rough, they like in the later rounds. If there is a quarterback outside the out-of-reach Elite 3, I think the Giants will try their best to grab him. If there isn't, they will pass and work on fixing the team
NFL Insider Albert Breer was asked about the Giants, quarterbacks, and the draft
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GFqMScNW0AAq5mn?format=jpg&name=900x900)
My gut tells me they won't go for one of the top QBs andwill go for an ER (Dallas, Verse, Chop, or Latu) or stud OT/OG (Alt, Fuaga or Jackson Powers-Johnson). I believe they'll give DJ one more year to prove his case, or move on a QB next year...Shedeur Sanders, Carson Beck, or Qwinn Ewers, etc.
In any case, it is my overwhelming firm opinion that they should trade down, but not worse than 15-17, and hopefully pick up another 2nd and more. I guess we shall see. I have a hunch they'll draft a later QB to groom...perhaps Joe Milton III (Tennessee), Michael Pratt (Tulane), or Sam Hartman (Notre Dame) :-??
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 06, 2024, 11:35:56 AMMy gut tells me they won't go for one of the top QBs andwill go for an ER (Dallas, Verse, Chop, or Latu) or stud OT/OG (Alt, Fuaga or Jackson Powers-Johnson). I believe they'll give DJ one more year to prove his case, or move on a QB next year...Shedeur Sanders, Carson Beck, or Qwinn Ewers, etc.
In any case, it is my overwhelming firm opinion that they should trade down, but not worse than 15-17, and hopefully pick up another 2nd and more. I guess we shall see. I have a hunch they'll draft a later QB to groom...perhaps Joe Milton III (Tennessee), Michael Pratt (Tulane), or Sam Hartman (Notre Dame) :-??
Pratt or Spencer Rattler, maybe Milton, but Hartman looks like trash
There are no givens in the draft with the exception of Williams and Harrison going in the top five. The evaluation period has not really begun with the top QBs. Free agency hasn't started yet and that will effect the draft. I see risers and fallers. I see significant trades coming. It should be fun because nothing is set in stone as of February 6.
JPJ at #6? Hmmm. He was dominant at the Senior Bowl. I'm tempted about Bowers. He is such a winner..but that seems high too. He would make any qb look better.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on February 06, 2024, 12:11:32 PMJPJ at #6? Hmmm. I tempted about Bowers. He is such a winner..but that seems high too. He would make any qb look better.
I agree that it's too early in the draft. Hence, my opinion is to trade back a few spots if the opportunity arises...just not too far back. JPJ will probably go between 12-22 would be my guess
He's a stud and would plug in either side of JMS for the next decade, and take over C if JMS gets hurt. A caveat of course, it's only my opinion which in the grand scheme of things (in the immortal words of Matt Foley) amounts to "Jack Squat"
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 06, 2024, 11:35:56 AMI believe they'll give DJ one more year to prove his case, or move on a QB next year...Shedeur Sanders, Carson Beck, or Qwinn Ewers, etc.
Jolly: Don't forget about the guy from Penn State.
He's going to be very good this coming year.
However, I could see him staying for his senior year, even if he does as well as I think he will do.
Bob
Quote from: katkavage on February 06, 2024, 12:09:23 PMThere are no givens in the draft with the exception of Williams and Harrison going in the top five. The evaluation period has not really begun with the top QBs. Free agency hasn't started yet and that will effect the draft. I see risers and fallers. I see significant trades coming. It should be fun because nothing is set in stone as of February 6.
Most of the QB prospects were expected to declare or enter the draft all season. Teams already have quite a bit on them. The one exception was McCarthy, who no one was sure would declare. I think Penix could rise or fall based on his physical. I think McCarthy could rise or fall based on more information.
The Combine throwing and measurements might move the needle slightly.
The interviews and whiteboard work could ding or boost a candidate a bit, but at this point, I think teams have a pretty good idea of how both of these will go, but you can never rule out surprises.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on February 06, 2024, 12:26:28 PMI agree that it's too early in the draft. Hence, my opinion is to trade back a few spots if the opportunity arises...just not too far back. JPJ will probably go between 12-22 would be my guess
He's a stud and would plug in either side of JMS for the next decade, and take over C if JMS gets hurt. A caveat of course, it's only my opinion which in the grand scheme of things (in the immortal words of Matt Foley) amounts to "Jack Squat"
Did they scout JPJ ..maybe living in a trailer..down by the river..?
@Jolly Blue Giant @spiderblue43 One thing to remember is that teams don't trade back if they have only a single draft target. They trade back when they have more draft targets than slots they will drop, or they are given an offer that is too good to pass up. We witnessed the one-spot trade down for a player last year when the Giants traded up a slot for Banks. The team trading wanted to make sure the Giants were drafting the guy they were targeting.
McCarthy is not going to last till the second round. He's a winner and he's got the arm talent of a first rounder.
This silly trope being pushed by fans and mocketeers that he's nothing more than a game manager is annoying. When they were in their drafts no one was claiming that Tom Brady, Pat Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees were transcendent talents who could single handedly put a team on his back and will it to wins. Every one of those guys had more questions about them than McCarthy does right now.
I was ok with over drafting Jones at 6. The Giants felt he was the guy. It didn't work and I'd be hesitant to repeat. We have missed out on too many blue chip players and I don't think we will bypass one at 6.
I do feel confident that our GM can target a trade up in mid rounds to grab McCarthy if he falls into the sweet spot.
I'm surprised nobody has tossed around Fields name yet. Reading a second may put him in play.
Quote from: gregf on February 06, 2024, 03:07:16 PMI was ok with over drafting Jones at 6. The Giants felt he was the guy. It didn't work and I'd be hesitant to repeat. We have missed out on too many blue chip players and I don't think we will bypass one at 6.
I do feel confident that our GM can target a trade up in mid rounds to grab McCarthy if he falls into the sweet spot.
I'm surprised nobody has tossed around Fields name yet. Reading a second may put him in play.
I started a thread on him at the end of the season. No one wanted to hop on the bandwagon with me.
Quote from: T200 on February 06, 2024, 03:32:43 PMI started a thread on him at the end of the season. No one wanted to hop on the bandwagon with me.
Fields will either be traded to one of the teams in need of a QB, more likely Raiders, Falcons, or Vikings. Unless Chicago keeps him, trades their first pick for a haul, and uses the many picks they would get to build a team around him this year and next.
My first choice would be to hope a top 3 qb falls. The second choice would be to trade up in rd 1 for McCarthy. Fields would be an interesting trade option for a second rd pick if first two choices don't work out
Quote from: gregf on February 06, 2024, 05:13:38 PMMy first choice would be to hope a top 3 qb falls. The second choice would be to trade up in rd 1 for McCarthy. Fields would be an interesting trade option for a second rd pick if first two choices don't work out
Do you mean get the best player at 6 and then trade back into round 1? I think McCarthy will be there when we pick at 6
Quote from: T200 on February 06, 2024, 03:32:43 PMI started a thread on him at the end of the season. No one wanted to hop on the bandwagon with me.
If the Bears are ready to move on I would worry about fields being Daniel Jones in a different uniform and that we're so desperate to be rid of Jones even similarly mediocre play would seem like an upgrade. That would be my main concern.
But if the guys in charge see fields as an upgrade and this assumes of course they can't get one of the big 3 QBs then I'll have to trust their judgement.
I am pretty sure I would rather have fields for a 2nd round pick than QB4 at pick number 6.
The more you start to hear scouts and analysts talk on podcasts and articles about the qb class, the more you hear them raving about Mccarthy. I think he goes significantly higher than many expect and could easily step in as Qb 3 pushing someone else down.
Also ignore the 2025 talk, the Qb class is absolutely horrible outside Sanders who would likely go at the end of the 1st in this class. The rest of the Qbs in 2025 have serious problems, and unless they come out and have a Burrow esq season then I wouldn't count on 2025 saving the Giants. It's why everyone talked about the 2024 class for almost 2 years and the importance of being in range this year.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 06, 2024, 08:11:00 PMThe more you start to hear scouts and analysts talk on podcasts and articles about the qb class, the more you hear them raving about Mccarthy. I think he goes significantly higher than many expect and could easily step in as Qb 3 pushing someone else down.
Also ignore the 2025 talk, the Qb class is absolutely horrible outside Sanders who would likely go at the end of the 1st in this class. The rest of the Qbs in 2025 have serious problems, and unless they come out and have a Burrow esq season then I wouldn't count on 2025 saving the Giants. It's why everyone talked about the 2024 class for almost 2 years and the importance of being in range this year.
Who do you think is most likely to get displaced?
Quote from: katkavage on February 06, 2024, 04:24:26 PMFields will either be traded to one of the teams in need of a QB, more likely Raiders, Falcons, or Vikings. Unless Chicago keeps him, trades their first pick for a haul, and uses the many picks they would get to build a team around him this year and next.
We are one of those teams.
Quote from: Gmo11 on February 06, 2024, 08:04:54 PMIf the Bears are ready to move on I would worry about fields being Daniel Jones in a different uniform and that we're so desperate to be rid of Jones even similarly mediocre play would seem like an upgrade. That would be my main concern.
But if the guys in charge see fields as an upgrade and this assumes of course they can't get one of the big 3 QBs then I'll have to trust their judgement.
I am pretty sure I would rather have fields for a 2nd round pick than QB4 at pick number 6.
Jones is damaged and shell-shocked. Even if he went to another team with an all-pro line, he'd have PTSD.
I think Daboll could work with Fields.
Quote from: Gmo11 on February 06, 2024, 08:04:54 PMIf the Bears are ready to move on I would worry about fields being Daniel Jones in a different uniform and that we're so desperate to be rid of Jones even similarly mediocre play would seem like an upgrade. That would be my main concern.
But if the guys in charge see fields as an upgrade and this assumes of course they can't get one of the big 3 QBs then I'll have to trust their judgement.
I am pretty sure I would rather have fields for a 2nd round pick than QB4 at pick number 6.
Fields, Jones, and many other NFL QBs. The challenge is there are only (by definition) a handful of elite QBs. Signing a non-elite QB to an expensive NFL veteran contract will handicap a team. If the Giants were to acquire Fields that would be the problem they will be taking on (again).
Quote from: madbadger on February 06, 2024, 01:34:13 PMMcCarthy is not going to last till the second round. He's a winner and he's got the arm talent of a first rounder.
This silly trope being pushed by fans and mocketeers that he's nothing more than a game manager is annoying. When they were in their drafts no one was claiming that Tom Brady, Pat Mahomes, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees were transcendent talents who could single handedly put a team on his back and will it to wins. Every one of those guys had more questions about them than McCarthy does right now.
Perfectly summed up. Madbadger's list of QBs were not studs in college and especially physically. They possessed an innate sense of playing QB however they did not display it in college with gaudy stats and "can't miss" labels. The part of matching up their mental acuity with an offensive scheme and letting their good but not necessarily great physical skills do the job became the responsibility of the coach. The rest is history.
JJ McCarthy has the mental processing skills of an elite NFL QB. He trusts his arm. One thing a coach may need to do is "throttle down" some of his enthusiasm without rattling his confidence, but he has got the "it" factor to play QB. You will see JJ try to win a game confidently. If he fails, he won't go crying to mom. He'll stand there and tell his teammates he let them and next time he will win it.
Quote from: Philosophers on February 07, 2024, 09:28:39 AMPerfectly summed up. Madbadger's list of QBs were not studs in college and especially physically. They possessed an innate sense of playing QB however they did not display it in college with gaudy stats and "can't miss" labels. The part of matching up their mental acuity with an offensive scheme and letting their good but not necessarily great physical skills do the job became the responsibility of the coach. The rest is history.
JJ McCarthy has the mental processing skills of an elite NFL QB. He trusts his arm. One thing a coach may need to do is "throttle down" some of his enthusiasm without rattling his confidence, but he has got the "it" factor to play QB. You will see JJ try to win a game confidently. If he fails, he won't go crying to mom. He'll stand there and tell his teammates he let them and next time he will win it.
I agree up until the crying to mom stuff. You got to let that go. Williams will be the first player picked and if the Giants had a chance at him would grab him in a NJ minute.
Quote from: katkavage on February 07, 2024, 09:44:29 AMI agree up until the crying to mom stuff. You got to let that go. Williams will be the first player picked and if the Giants had a chance at him would grab him in a NJ minute.
I am not down on Williams for that. I do not think what Williams did was any form of weakness. My point was that JJ won't do that. Just a different kind of personality.
Quote from: Philosophers on February 07, 2024, 09:28:39 AMPerfectly summed up. Madbadger's list of QBs were not studs in college and especially physically. They possessed an innate sense of playing QB however they did not display it in college with gaudy stats and "can't miss" labels. The part of matching up their mental acuity with an offensive scheme and letting their good but not necessarily great physical skills do the job became the responsibility of the coach. The rest is history.
JJ McCarthy has the mental processing skills of an elite NFL QB. He trusts his arm. One thing a coach may need to do is "throttle down" some of his enthusiasm without rattling his confidence, but he has got the "it" factor to play QB. You will see JJ try to win a game confidently. If he fails, he won't go crying to mom. He'll stand there and tell his teammates he let them and next time he will win it.
I have the thread with all I could find on McCarthy. I am hoping the Giants draft McCarthy at six because I think he solves the QB problem for the next decade and leaves enough draft capital to fix the O-line and avoid creating holes in the roster.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on February 06, 2024, 09:15:27 PMWho do you think is most likely to get displaced?
Any Of the 3 really they all have questions.
Caleb Williams- has the mental question marks
Drake Maye- has a serious Sam Howell problem that no one is talking about. Plus he loses to absolutely horrible teams that he should never lose to.
Jayden Daniels spent 5 years in college and it took all 5 years and 3 elite wrs for him to finally put together a great year and he still lost.
Just saying that all of those guys have a ton of questions that no one is really talking about and Mccarthy at 21 has the most room to grow, and may actually have the least amount of questions, and he just wins at an absurd level.
I know people will say well its Michigan but you can ask
@Philosophers Michigan has had teams under Harbaugh that couldn't win late in the season because they didn't have that guy, Shea Patterson wasn't it, and whoever else. It took Mccarthy for that team to get over the hump.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on February 07, 2024, 10:42:26 AMAny Of the 3 really they all have questions.
Caleb Williams- has the mental question marks
Drake Maye- has a serious Sam Howell problem that no one is talking about. Plus he loses to absolutely horrible teams that he should never lose to.
Jayden Daniels spent 5 years in college and it took all 5 years and 3 elite wrs for him to finally put together a great year and he still lost.
Just saying that all of those guys have a ton of questions that no one is really talking about and Mccarthy at 21 has the most room to grow, and may actually have the least amount of questions, and he just wins at an absurd level.
I know people will say well its Michigan but you can ask @Philosophers Michigan has had teams under Harbaugh that couldn't win late in the season because they didn't have that guy, Shea Patterson wasn't it, and whoever else. It took Mccarthy for that team to get over the hump.
I will add my concern with Caleb. The book on him is that he is this great, improve artist. He is supposed to be the master of making off-script plays. For me, when I hear what a prospect does well, I like to be able to confirm by production on the field. Yet, most of the QB metrics that you would expect high grades from an improve-master QB (like grades under pressure or when scrambling) simply are not there.
I think with scouting there is a tendency to overvalue really good or really bad plays and not consider the overall body of work.