LT Joe Alt
WR Rome Odunze
QB J.J. McCarthy
I believe QBs Williams, Maye, and Daniels go in some order 1,2, and 3
I think WR Harrison and WR Nabers go in some order 4 and 5
So who do you take?
Rich,
I can't argue with anything you have written here. I'm maybe a bit less sure than you are that Nabers will go to the Chargers, as they could easily go with Odunze instead plus I can't rule out their taking one of the tackles, but I think your projections are probably the base case.
I am still not sold on taking McCarthy 6th overall but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm also dreading this season with our current QB options, albeit this is not a reason to use the 6th pick in the draft on the fourth QB off the board of the front office is only moderately sold on him.
You won't hear much push-back from me if we take a top tackle or one of the two premier receivers. I have all but given up on Neal ever being good, plus — let's face it — Thomas isn't exactly the model of durability. And we also clearly don't have a number one, top shelf, alpha dog receiver in this offense, and like OT it's a premium position.
I tend to think quality receivers run a bit deeper in drafts than quality OTs, so I would feel more confident in us getting a good to very good receiver with one of our second rounders than a very good OT in that range. With that in mind, I'd probably lean slightly towards OT.
I need to be more convinced on McCarthy than I presently am to declare him as my preference with that high a pick.
My one and only question with Joe Alt is if he can play RT at a high level. We know he's good at LT.
I am a big fan of ND OL. They are smart, coachable and seem to have enough of everything to be effective at the NFL level.
Odunze seems to check all the boxes, however so did Quentin Johnston who came out of college and had a very quiet NFL first year with the Chargers. If they go WR, he needs to be WR1 for the Giants before frankly he leaves that draft stage.
I understand the hesitancy of drafting JJ at 6 and having him be say the 4th QB off the board. It feels like a lot of talent would be there at other positions.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 08:50:16 AMRich,
I can't argue with anything you have written here. I'm maybe a bit less sure than you are that Nabers will go to the Chargers, as they could easily go with Odunze instead plus I can't rule out their taking one of the tackles, but I think your projections are probably the base case.
I am still not sold on taking McCarthy 6th overall but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I'm also dreading this season with our current QB options, albeit this is not a reason to use the 6th pick in the draft on the fourth QB off the board of the front office is only moderately sold on him.
You won't hear much push-back from me if we take a top tackle or one of the two premier receivers. I have all but given up on Neal ever being good, plus — let's face it — Thomas isn't exactly the model of durability. And we also clearly don't have a number one, top shelf, alpha dog receiver in this offense, and like OT it's a premium position.
I tend to think quality receivers run a bit deeper in drafts than quality OTs, so I would feel more confident in us getting a good to very good receiver with one of our second rounders than a very good OT in that range. With that in mind, I'd probably lean slightly towards OT.
I need to be more convinced on McCarthy than I presently am to declare him as my preference with that high a pick.
As you know, I listen to a lot of quality football podcasts. I get a real sense that the NFL is really high on Nabers, to the point that it wouldn't shock me to see Nabers drafted before Harrison.
With Harbaugh's background, I agree it wouldn't be a shock if he goes trenches with his first pick, but the two top WRs are perhaps the best two players in the draft, so it will be tough for them to pass on one of them.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 09:13:32 AMAs you know, I listen to a lot of quality football podcasts. I get a real sense that the NFL is really high on Nabers, to the point that it wouldn't shock me to see Nabers drafted before Harrison.
With Harbaugh's background, I agree it wouldn't be a shock if he goes trenches with his first pick, but the two top WRs are perhaps the best two players in the draft, so it will be tough for them to pass on one of them.
I think that's correct. The Chargers have invested a lot in their O line, and their receivers are aging (Allen) and injury prone and inconsistent (Williams). Getting a top shelf X guy will be hard to pass up, I agree.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 09:31:21 AMI think that's correct. The Chargers have invested a lot in their O line, and their receivers are aging (Allen) and injury prone and inconsistent (Williams). Getting a top shelf X guy will be hard to pass up, I agree.
Harbaugh has said that the best thing he can do for Herbert is provide him with a good running game. Harbaugh believes that starts in the trenches. I believe the Chargers will draft OL at 5 with a lot of input from Greg Roman on the type of OL he may want. I think they have a similar problem as the Giants in that their top OL plays OLT, right? They need help on the right side if I am not mistaken.
I believe Nabers will be an option for the Giants at 6 and that Joe Alt may not.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 09:36:26 AMHarbaugh has said that the best thing he can do for Herbert is provide him with a good running game. Harbaugh believes that starts in the trenches. I believe the Chargers will draft OL at 5 with a lot of input from Greg Roman on the type of OL he may want. I think they have a similar problem as the Giants in that their top OL plays OLT, right? They need help on the right side if I am not mistaken.
I believe Nabers will be an option for the Giants at 6 and that Joe Alt may not.
If we're not drafting a QB and Nabers is there at 6, he'd be tough to pass up. Odunze is impressive for sure and does bring certain attributes to the table that Nabers doesn't, but the same can be said about Nabers. His tape really pops for me and has all year. The guy is flat out explosive and can seriously separate. His moves in the open field are also second to none.
Can the team grab a guy like Alt after spending a top 7 pick on Neal two years ago (and trying to flip him to the right side)? The Giants have an All-Pro LT in Andrew Thomas.
WR at 6? That tells me they're invested in Jones for at least another year. JJ? Well, that means the team is starting over...again. I can live with either of those picks if they are decisive about the QB position.
QB hell? Yep.
This team needs another pass rusher.
https://x.com/bigblueview/status/1763583024514400742?s=20
If Maye and Daniels are gone, I'd pick Odunze. I think he will be there. Then I'd move up from the second round for Nix, Penix or McMarthy. I'm warming up on McC. I'll be more committed by Sunday Morning.
We can answer this more definitevly in a month. I think the Giants will sign two offensive lineman in free agency making the odds of a first round OL remote. If not a QB than receiver. Though they might sign a receiver as well in Free agency. Also it depends if Barkley moves on freeing up the money for him to be used on other assets.
Quote from: katkavage on March 01, 2024, 10:43:04 AMWe can answer this more definitevly in a month. I think the Giants will sign two offensive lineman in free agency making the odds of a first round OL remote. If not a QB than receiver. Though they might sign a receiver as well in Free agency. Also it depends if Barkley moves on freeing up the money for him to be used on other assets.
If history is any indicator, the Giants will work free agency to the point where there shouldn't be any glaring holes that scream to be filled in the draft. That will allow them the needed flexibility in the draft.
Given Harbaugh's statements about wanting to establish a running game plus the need to keep a high priced QB heathy, I'm expecting the Chargers to draft an OT. The Michigan ran the ball should say something about his thinking. I also don't expect the Giants to overdraft Evan Neal at least with the 1st pick this year; they'll give him time to play better and hopefully stay healthy. It would also help if they sign a good OG in free agency to play next to him.
That said, there seems to lots of OTs and WRs in this draft that are highly rated. If the Chargers think they can find what they need in round 2 or if Schoen thinks he can find his #1 WR or QB or OT in round 2, he might gamble. IF, on the other hand, Nabers is the second coming of Jamar Chase as some seem to think, that would be a special pick here assuming the QBs go the expected way and JJ not that high. Maybe a trade back?
The more I "hear" is that the next wag I read will have suggested something different from that advanced by someone ten minutes earlier. For example, a few minutes ago, I read Pro Football Network's latest Mockery headlined: How High Does Marvin Harrison Jr. Rise and How Far Does Jayden Daniels Fall?
Of course, before we get to answer, we are told that Jayden Daniels will fall to Atlanta with the 8th pick. So, that suggests that Our Heroes are either not quite so enthralled with Daniels, or have no interest in using their No.6 on a QB, nor in trading up with the Pats who apparently choose to see Marvin Harrison as allowing them to stick with Mac-the other-Jones.
What we might also find interesting is that starting with the Pats and Harrison, and finishing with the Giants and Odunze, it's 4 Receivers in a row (Nabers to Az, Bowers to LAC) in support of the current QBs.
I must say that I'm surprised to see that there is no 4th QB- McCarthy or otherwise- predicted for Denver, Vegas, Pittsburg, or even Minny.
As for no Joe Alt to the Giants, as satisfying as it might otherwise be, it not surprising. But, of course, that could change over the next 9 weeks depending on which of 416 Mock Drafts we chose for our own.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on March 01, 2024, 11:47:24 AMThe more I "hear" is that the next wag I read will have suggested something different from that advanced by someone ten minutes earlier. For example, a few minutes ago, I read Pro Football Network's latest Mockery headlined: How High Does Marvin Harrison Jr. Rise and How Far Does Jayden Daniels Fall?
Of course, before we get to answer, we are told that Jayden Daniels will fall to Atlanta with the 8th pick. So, that suggests that Our Heroes are either not quite so enthralled with Daniels, or have no interest in using their No.6 on a QB, nor in trading up with the Pats who apparently choose to see Marvin Harrison as allowing them to stick with Mac-the other-Jones.
What we might also find interesting is that starting with the Pats and Harrison, and finishing with the Giants and Odunze, it's 4 Receivers in a row (Nabers to Az, Bowers to LAC) in support of the current QBs.
I must say that I'm surprised to see that there is no 4th QB- McCarthy or otherwise- predicted for Denver, Vegas, Pittsburg, or even Minny.
As for no Joe Alt to the Giants, as satisfying as it might otherwise be, it not surprising. But, of course, that could change over the next 9 weeks depending on which of 416 Mock Drafts we chose for our own.
Cheers!
Larry,
I think what you left out is that I am quite critical in terms of who I listen to. Any source I listen to has been screened like a court screen and expert witness. PFN is not a source that has made my cut.
In no way was that meant as criticism of your views and selections, Rich. I certainly wasn't editing your choices. Quite the contrary, I was reminding all of us as to why we call it the Silly Season, which probably was unnecessary and perhaps even tedious. I shouldn't have commented, I guess.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on March 01, 2024, 12:16:44 PMIn no way was that meant as criticism of your views and selections, Rich. I certainly wasn't editing your choices. Quite the contrary, I was reminding all of us as to why we call it the Silly Season, which probably was unnecessary and perhaps even tedious. I shouldn't have commented, I guess.
Cheers!
Now we need Painter to start a blog: Mocking the Mocks
If we pick McCarthy at 6, I will be needing a new TV. I can't even imagine that's a consideration.
IF mccarthy is qb#4 in this draft, then where does that place him if you are committed to taking the best player available [albeit in a position of some to high need] with pick #6??????????????
that sounds like a real long shot IMO. I'd go OL or a top 3 WR at pick 6 and look for a backup qb in FA or in round 2.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:35:21 AMLT Joe Alt
WR Rome Odunze
QB J.J. McCarthy
I believe QBs Williams, Maye, and Daniels go in some order 1,2, and 3
I think WR Harrison and WR Nabers go in some order 4 and 5
So who do you take?
In this scenario with Nabers gone, I wonder if the Bears would be interested in trading up from #9 to land Odunze tk pair with their new QB.
I think if Nabers falls to the Giants, the Bears would then roll the dice in Odunze dropping to them. But if not, they might be interested.
We'd pick up an extra 3rd rounder (and maybe a 5th?), and still be in a position to land McCarthy, Alt, Turner.
Quote from: katkavage on March 01, 2024, 12:19:43 PMNow we need Painter to start a blog: Mocking the Mocks
Not a bad idea. How about I start with you...I mean yours. It certainly wouldn't take much time or imagination.
Cheers!
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 08:35:21 AMLT Joe Alt
WR Rome Odunze
QB J.J. McCarthy
I believe QBs Williams, Maye, and Daniels go in some order 1,2, and 3
I think WR Harrison and WR Nabers go in some order 4 and 5
So who do you take?
All solid options. I like Alt, but that really depends if new o line coach feels Neal is better at guard. I'd love a QB,but the 4th QB at 6 -You'd better be sold he is an upgrade. At this point, I think it's WR, with o line help in rd 2 and FA. A QB is definitely in play to move back into rd 1 or rd 2.
Quote from: Painter on March 01, 2024, 12:51:37 PMNot a bad idea. How about I start with you...I mean yours. It certainly wouldn't take much time or imagination.
Cheers!
If I ever in my life made/make a mock draft you can have at it. I'd welcome your crank, after all this is supposed to be fun, an escape. Nothing to take too seriously. At least I don't and would recommend others take a breath which is why I suggested mocking the Mocks.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 09:41:34 AMIf we're not drafting a QB and Nabers is there at 6, he'd be tough to pass up. Odunze is impressive for sure and does bring certain attributes to the table that Nabers doesn't, but the same can be said about Nabers. His tape really pops for me and has all year. The guy is flat out explosive and can seriously separate. His moves in the open field are also second to none.
What is Nabers maturity level? Anyone read anything tangible about it?
I dont want partying on a boat in Miami 2.0
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 02:08:45 PMWhat is Nabers maturity level? Anyone read anything tangible about it?
I dont want partying on a boat in Miami 2.0
Is there any concrete, legitimately sourced evidence that he has displayed immaturity or an otherwise bad attitude?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 02:36:56 PMIs there any concrete, legitimately sourced evidence that he has displayed immaturity or an otherwise bad attitude?
It's the nonsense season.
Quote from: President Rick on March 01, 2024, 12:40:04 PMIF mccarthy is qb#4 in this draft, then where does that place him if you are committed to taking the best player available [albeit in a position of some to high need] with pick #6??????????????
that sounds like a real long shot IMO. I'd go OL or a top 3 WR at pick 6 and look for a backup qb in FA or in round 2.
I agree, except I wouldn't take o lineman at 6 unless an it was a lt. I want an impact player at 6. WR, Edge, CB....
Quote from: katkavage on March 01, 2024, 03:21:02 PMIt's the nonsense season.
Well I have no idea. Maybe there's something I missed on him. That's totally possible. Hence why I asked.
I personally haven't seen anything like that myself on him though. And I'm not just going to stereotype the guy as some thug or diva solely because he went to LSU without there being any actual red flags from a credible source.
Quote from: gregf on March 01, 2024, 01:31:22 PMAll solid options. I like Alt, but that really depends if new o line coach feels Neal is better at guard. I'd love a QB,but the 4th QB at 6 -You'd better be sold he is an upgrade. At this point, I think it's WR, with o line help in rd 2 and FA. A QB is definitely in play to move back into rd 1 or rd 2.
From everything I've heard, the Giants have spoken to a ton of guards and tackles agents at the combine. All seem to be mid level signings were they can bring in 2 guards and a swing to add depth and competition hopefully finalizing the line.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 01, 2024, 02:36:56 PMIs there any concrete, legitimately sourced evidence that he has displayed immaturity or an otherwise bad attitude?
I am asking because only thing I read about him is what everyone keeps repeating which is explosive.
How does he train? What do coaches say about his dedication in practices? Does he stay around for extra passing sessions? Out of practice, what's he doing?
Would like to understand more about him. I'm not doubting him if that's what you were concluding.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 08:23:02 PMI am asking because only thing I read about him is what everyone keeps repeating which is explosive.
How does he train? What do coaches say about his dedication in practices? Does he stay around for extra passing sessions? Out of practice, what's he doing?
Would like to understand more about him. I'm not doubting him if that's what you were concluding.
I'm not sure we'll ever know the answers to those questions but they are exactly what scouts/evaluators ask when considering a player
Quote from: Philosophers on March 01, 2024, 08:23:02 PMI am asking because only thing I read about him is what everyone keeps repeating which is explosive.
How does he train? What do coaches say about his dedication in practices? Does he stay around for extra passing sessions? Out of practice, what's he doing?
Would like to understand more about him. I'm not doubting him if that's what you were concluding.
I didn't conclude anything, but it seemed like you had some negative information on him when you said "I don't want partying on a boat in Miami 2.0." I was curious what prompted this sort of concern around Nabers any more than it would with any other draft prospect that doesn't appear to have any noteworthy question marks around maturity or attitude. Why would the Miami boat party type concerns apply to him any more than say Joe Alt or Brock Bowers?
Found a comment from LSU head coach Brian Kelly about Nabers' maturity level and attitude:
"For me, from the spring to the summer workouts to now, he's obviously stronger physically and his maturity is the thing that stands out," Kelly said. "When I say maturity, I mean he's the same guy everyday. He comes to practice prepared, he practices hard, comes with the right attitude, thinks the right way and that's maturity."
None... trade down for Ladd McConkey and other valuable picks.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 10:34:18 AMhttps://x.com/bigblueview/status/1763583024514400742?s=20
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 01, 2024, 10:34:18 AMhttps://x.com/bigblueview/status/1763583024514400742?s=20
Cute kid...
Super likable!
Makes it hard to pass on him if he checks all the boxes at 6.
Top
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 02, 2024, 05:42:27 AMI didn't conclude anything, but it seemed like you had some negative information on him when you said "I don't want partying on a boat in Miami 2.0." I was curious what prompted this sort of concern around Nabers any more than it would with any other draft prospect that doesn't appear to have any noteworthy question marks around maturity or attitude. Why would the Miami boat party type concerns apply to him any more than say Joe Alt or Brock Bowers?
Not suggesting he is that. Just WRs in general have had some real divas.
This is the first year since the Jeremy Shockey selection that I feel like I know who the Giants will select. I believe it will be JJ. In fact with Vegas at 18:1, I am ready to out down $100 on it.
The more I read about, the less I want that 6th pick. This JJ frenzy of speculation makes me believe there's a chance we could trade down with suitors for him.
We need foundation pieces almost everywhere and taking McCarthy at 6th (insulating the brass) doesn't escalate the roster enough. Much rather get a big haul from the Raiders or Vikings etc.
Taking Nabers or Odunze or Alt at 6 makes sense if we don't get a trade down.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on March 04, 2024, 10:08:08 AMThe more I read about, the less I want that 6th pick. This JJ frenzy of speculation makes me believe there's a chance we could trade down with suitors for him.
We need foundation pieces almost everywhere and taking McCarthy at 6th (insulating the brass) doesn't escalate the roster enough. Much rather get a big haul from the Raiders or Vikings etc.
Taking Nabers or Odunze or Alt at 6 makes sense if we don't get a trade down.
If the Giants can't fix that Offensive Line, McCarthy will also struggle. He faced less that 30% pressures at Michigan and when under pressure he became human as most QB's do.
The thing with taking Alt, is can he transition well to RT? Neal certainly has struggled. Some can and some can't. There's a lot of O-line talent in this Draft. The BPA would have to be be at a position of need at six. How do they pass on Alt if he's there? He's certainly not getting Drafted to play Guard.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 10:23:23 AMIf the Giants can't fix that Offensive Line, McCarthy will also struggle. He faced less that 30% pressures at Michigan and when under pressure he became human as most QB's do.
The thing with taking Alt, is can he transition well to RT? Neal certainly has struggled. Some can and some can't. There's a lot of O-line talent in this Draft. The BPA would have to be be at a position of need at six. How do they pass on Alt if he's there? He's certainly not getting Drafted to play Guard.
Or they cant trade back and iverdraft a RT at 6. Another leas desirable scenario.
Gotta mean whatya say. After you actually place your bet, come back and tell us, Joseph. <:-P
And by the way, not to diminish the wisdom of your Shockey guess in 2002, but wasn't he the odds-on favorite as the Giants pick- they even traded up a slot- in what was otherwise a notably weak Draft? Just teasin' ;)
Cheers!
Unless they trade back I would be shocked at a tackle at 6. Free agency is what they are targeting I feel for offensive line help.
Quote from: katkavage on March 04, 2024, 10:41:09 AMUnless they trade back I would be shocked at a tackle at 6. Free agency is what they are targeting I feel for offensive line help.
I'd be surprised if they don't restock the line in FA. That is priority one. I mentioned Alt as an option; If they keep the 6th pick, I hope it's Nabers or Odunze, both big-time playmakers
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 10:23:23 AMIf the Giants can't fix that Offensive Line, McCarthy will also struggle. He faced less that 30% pressures at Michigan and when under pressure he became human as most QB's do.
The thing with taking Alt, is can he transition well to RT? Neal certainly has struggled. Some can and some can't. There's a lot of O-line talent in this Draft. The BPA would have to be be at a position of need at six. How do they pass on Alt if he's there? He's certainly not getting Drafted to play Guard.
I think it's worth noting how the top prospects did under pressure compared to overall. I will use QB rating as the measure and PFF for the source of the stats.
Name QB rating clean QB rating under pressure :: PFF offensive clean PFF offensive grade under pressure
Nix 134.0 131.4 :: 92.2 91.5
Daniels 146.2 123.5 :: 94.0 82.2
JJ 118.1 111.8 :: 90.4 75.8
Caleb 130.1 81.3 :: 94.3 41.4
Maye 108.6 69.0 :: 92.3 65.2
Penix 119.9 68.0 :: 92.9 64.7
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 10:55:28 AMI think it's worth noting how the top prospects did under pressure compared to overall. I will use QB rating as the measure and PFF for the source of the stats.
Name QB rating clean QB rating under pressure :: PFF offensive clean PFF offensive grade under pressure
Nix 134.0 131.4 :: 92.2 91.5
Daniels 146.2 123.5 :: 94.0 82.2
JJ 118.1 111.8 :: 90.4 75.8
Caleb 130.1 81.3 :: 94.3 41.4
Maye 108.6 69.0 :: 92.3 65.2
Penix 119.9 68.0 :: 92.9 64.7
Certainly doesn't look good for the ubiquitously anointed number one pick. (myself excluded)
What are the % of pressures by QB?
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 11:00:10 AMCertainly doesn't look good for the ubiquitously anointed number one pick. (myself excluded)
What are the % of pressures by QB?
Nix 15.8%
Daniels 25.5%
JJ 30.5%
Caleb 33.2%
Maye 29.4%
Penix 27.4%
Quote from: Painter on March 04, 2024, 10:39:53 AMGotta mean whatya say. After you actually place your bet, come back and tell us, Joseph. <:-P
And by the way, not to diminish the wisdom of your Shockey guess in 2002, but wasn't he the odds-on favorite as the Giants pick- they even traded up a slot- in what was otherwise a notably weak Draft? Just teasin' ;)
Cheers!
Larry - i don't give myself any credit for guessing the Shockey pick. Everyone picked him. I just noted that it was the last ine where I felt such certainty not that I was unique in selecting him.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 11:00:10 AMCertainly doesn't look good for the ubiquitously anointed number one pick. (myself excluded)
What are the % of pressures by QB?
That is the onfield thing about Caleb Williams that really bothers me. Williams is supposed to be this off-script wizard that makes all these wow throws. Yet when you look at his stats and grades under pressure you are not seeing the results one would expect to find.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 11:03:39 AMNix 15.8%
Daniels 25.5%
JJ 30.5%
Caleb 33.2%
Maye 29.4%
Penix 27.4%
Looks like all these boys may be in for an awakening.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 11:07:08 AMThat is the onfield thing about Caleb Williams that really bothers me. Williams is supposed to be this off-script wizard that makes all these wow throws. Yet when you look at his stats and grades under pressure you are not seeing the results one would expect to find.
He also creates a lot of pressures from my observation. I don't think he sees the field well from the pocket because of his height. I think he's the biggest Boom or Bust QB in decades.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 11:09:06 AMLooks like all these boys may be in for an awakening.
NFL numbers (for comparison)
5 least pressured
Tua 24.9%
Lawerence 29.5
Burrow 30.5
Carr and Love 30.8
5 Most pressured
Devito 41.8%
Wilson 43.1
Levis 44.5
D. Jones 45.5
Fields 48.8
If the Giants draft a rookie QB, sit him for 2024 until you fix the OL. Get him at least an average OL to start his NFL career.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 04, 2024, 11:37:54 AMIf the Giants draft a rookie QB, sit him for 2024 until you fix the OL. Get him at least an average OL to start his NFL career.
Like you said, they will probably take McCarthy for that reason. He is young and can sit for a year. But it is too much of a gamble not to take one and rely on Jones to recover to full strength, stay healthy, and play up to his ceiling (think Ryan Tannehill).
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 11:15:40 AMNFL numbers (for comparison)
5 least pressured
Tua 24.9%
Lawerence 29.5
Burrow 30.5
Carr and Love 30.8
5 Most pressured
Devito 41.8%
Wilson 43.1
Levis 44.5
D. Jones 45.5
Fields 48.8
Looks to me that the Bears should trade down and get two O line and a Receiver.
If JJ is there at six the Giants should take him. Daniel Jones after 6 effing years has proven not to be the one. 22' was a mirage, the outlier in his career. He is what he is whether there are five All-Pros blocking for him, or The Sisters of the Poor. He's physically fragile, with 2x neck injuries. Daboll/Schoen DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR OWN QB TO DEVELOP. Raise your hand if you truly believe Jones can take the Giants to the promised land. I'll wait............ Thought so. JJ wins, period. He played in a pro style offense at the top of college football, coached by a pro coach. Mara paid Jones, so now he doesn't have to feel guilty that he hired Gettleman to set the franchise back years. At times I thought Jones might have "it". Not anymore, and I don't understand how fans, pundits, talking heads think he does. I have watched football since 1965, I know when I see average at best.
With the new DC looking to generate pressure from the front 4-5, don't overlook Latu, Turner, and Verse. Their value is right up there in the 10-15 range.
Quote from: files58 on March 04, 2024, 11:54:11 AMIf JJ is there at six the Giants should take him. Daniel Jones after 6 effing years has proven not to be the one. 22' was a mirage, the outlier in his career. He is what he is whether there are five All-Pros blocking for him, or The Sisters of the Poor. He's physically fragile, with 2x neck injuries. Daboll/Schoen DESERVE TO HAVE THEIR OWN QB TO DEVELOP. Raise your hand if you truly believe Jones can take the Giants to the promised land. I'll wait............ Thought so. JJ wins, period. He played in a pro style offense at the top of college football, coached by a pro coach. Mara paid Jones, so now he doesn't have to feel guilty that he hired Gettleman to set the franchise back years. At times I thought Jones might have "it". Not anymore, and I don't understand how fans, pundits, talking heads think he does. I have watched football since 1965, I know when I see average at best.
I have to agree with Adam Schein.
https://x.com/bigblueunited/status/1764325898000441612?
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 12:23:05 PMI have to agree with Adam Schein.
https://x.com/bigblueunited/status/1764325898000441612?
Ed,
What qualifies Adam Schein's opinions/beliefs as better than the people posting on this forum?
The guy is a broadcaster who never played, scouted, managed, or coached football. I am not aware of his having even studied the game extensively.
He has made a career of "hot takes" though including:
claiming Packers QB Jordan Love 'can't play football'
Claimed Trever Siemian was a 2017 MVP candidate
Claimed Matt Ryan would have a better season in 2022 than Tom Brady
Tua would have a better season than Jalen Hurts in 2022
https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-who-adam-schein-nfl-reporter-fire-claiming-packers-qb-jordan-love-can-t-play-football
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 12:31:13 PMEd,
What qualifies Adam Schein's opinions/beliefs as better than the people posting on this forum?
The guy is a broadcaster who never played, scouted, managed, or coached football. I am not aware of his having even studied the game extensively.
He has made a career of "hot takes" though including:
claiming Packers QB Jordan Love 'can't play football'
Claimed Trever Siemian was a 2017 MVP candidate
Claimed Matt Ryan would have a better season in 2022 than Tom Brady
Tua would have a better season than Jalen Hurts in 2022
https://www.sportskeeda.com/nfl/news-who-adam-schein-nfl-reporter-fire-claiming-packers-qb-jordan-love-can-t-play-football
Because he's right in this case. Schoen should have tagged Jones and he didn't need to make that decision to give him a contract that would lock Jones as the Franchise QB after one decent season. It also exposes them to a nice sized Cap hit after 2024. There would be no way he would tag or sign him after last season.
I assume the franchise would have overpaid DJ for one season vs what he made in year 1 of his new contract correct but woukd have given the team flexibility to move on after 1 year or pay even more than the new contract if 2023 was a great year for DJ? I assume that was the situation.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 12:36:17 PMBecause he's right in this case. Schoen should have tagged Jones and he didn't need to make that decision to give him a contract that would lock Jones as the Franchise QB after one decent season. It also exposes them to a nice sized Cap hit after 2024. There would be no way he would tag or sign him after last season.
No one predicted the crash and burn of the O-line, which contributed to the injuries that likely cut DJ's career short.
What Schein is not saying Mara was the one behind signing him. The two year out was a compromise with Schoen/Daboll. Once Mara said, to paraphrase, we've done everything we can to screw up this kid, I knew we were in trouble. Besides, Schein is a blowhard. Boy, am I opinionated today.
Quote from: files58 on March 04, 2024, 12:44:52 PMWhat Schein is not saying Mara was the one behind signing him. The two year out was a compromise with Schoen/Daboll. Once Mara said, to paraphrase, we've done everything we can to screw up this kid, I knew we were in trouble. Besides, Schein is a blowhard. Boy, am I opinionated today.
That's unqualified "blowhard" ;)
If Mara made the call to sign DJ, then i doubt Schoen is on the hotseat as I might have imagined though getting Neal wrong is a huge ding IMHO.
here is he potential WR 3 the Giants might be "stuck" with (from Bruce Feldman
One last note on the wideouts. I don't believe Rome Odunze will get picked before Marvin Harrison Jr., but it sounded like some NFL personnel people are more intrigued by the Washington star than Harrison. The 6-3, 212-pound Odunze has truly elite ball skills, and people I spoke to about the receivers were effusive in how they talked about his make-up and competitiveness. I'd say going into my trip that Harrison is the closest thing to a "can't miss" in this draft. I still am sold on the Buckeyes All-American, but after listening to NFL people talk about Odunze, I might change my opinion to say that he's the closest thing to a can't-miss project.
https://theathletic.com/5314788/2024/03/04/nfl-scouting-combine-takeaways-quarterbacks/
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 12:38:38 PMNo one predicted the crash and burn of the O-line, which contributed to the injuries that likely cut DJ's career short.
Daniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box. If you can't see it or refuse to acknowledge it, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion and narrative. What you're not entitled to is to attempt to prove everyone wrong who doesn't agree with you by quoting them with your "facts". You've been on this DJ bandwagon for six years now. It's old and tired Rich.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 01:50:06 PMDaniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box. If you can't see it or refuse to acknowledge it, that's fine, you're entitled to your opinion and narrative. What you're not entitled to is to attempt to prove everyone wrong who doesn't agree with you by quoting them with your "facts". You've been on this DJ bandwagon for six years now. It's old and tired Rich.
I am pretty sure Schoen and Daboll do not agree with your assertion that "Daniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box." If they did, they never would have signed DJ to the contract they did. Eli Manning, Phil Simms, Peter King, Carl Banks, Mel Kiper, bob Papa and I don't agree with your opinion. I will acknowledge that Adam Schein (and many posters here at BBH) certainly agrees with your opinion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 01:57:29 PMI am pretty sure Schoen and Daboll do not agree with your assertion that "Daniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box." If they did, they never would have signed DJ to the contract they did. Eli Manning, Phil Simms, Peter King, Carl Banks, Mel Kiper, bob Papa and I don't agree with your opinion. I will acknowledge that Adam Schein (and many posters here at BBH) certainly agrees with your opinion.
I would discount anyone's opinion on Jones in the Giant bubble. He's a great kid who works hard, is a good teammate, and always says the right thing. It's difficult not to root for him. But you have to forget all that and look at the production--not the potential in year six. He's never put up numbers. He played well in 2022 mainly managing the game, using his legs and benefiting from a healthy Barkley. But even in 2022 he didn't really beat any good teams or put up impressive passing numbers. Right now his biggest problem is that he is injury prone. I feel many of the injuries, especially the upper body ones, are due to his lack of athletic instincts, which also show in his slow processing. He doesn't even know how to slide properly and runs upright not protecting his body, thus the hits on him, can be brutal. But his a good, strong athlete who can run and throw. That hasn't translated to much beyond a good 2022 where the team won many close games.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 01:57:29 PMI am pretty sure Schoen and Daboll do not agree with your assertion that "Daniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box." If they did, they never would have signed DJ to the contract they did. Eli Manning, Phil Simms, Peter King, Carl Banks, Mel Kiper, and I don't agree with your opinion. I will acknowledge that Adam Schein (and many posters here at BBH) certainly agrees with your opinion.
You're sure? How are you sure? Did you have a confidential conversation with them? The three Giants are company men and Kiper is a fool with a big mouth. This is what happens when they are too close to the forest for the trees and they try to please the owner. Even Daboll was visibly upset and frustrated with Jones. They thought he was developing after a good running attack and a bunch of short passes and his legs. Like I've said, with protection, Jones can put up some good stats and win games. However, when the pressure is on and it's big moments, he folds. Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor had better results and they are middling QB's. Ahh, wait. They had Thomas at LT, except for games 6-8.
Schoen went off of one year under Daboll and thought he had a Franchise QB. He's also made other questionable decisions. So had Daboll. The slack in their rope is very short. If they don't draft a QB this year, they are just as foolish as Mel Kiper.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 04, 2024, 01:04:34 PMIf Mara made the call to sign DJ, then i doubt Schoen is on the hotseat as I might have imagined though getting Neal wrong is a huge ding IMHO.
Mara may try too show he's a fan just like us by throwing chairs, and giving out Pepsi. However he lives in a much different Giant world than we do. It's easy to tolerate losing(they are about 50 games under .500 since 1965) when you sit around with the other owners going harumph, harumph, harumph as Godell distributes duffel bags full of money to each one. The $$$$$$$$$$$$ mitigates, and is a salve for the losing. Love this scene, and Mel there is nothing boyish about those "boys". https://www.google.com/search?q=blazing+saddles+harumph+scene&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS925US925&oq=harumph+scene+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgCEAAYFhgeMgYIABBFGDkyDAgBEAAYChgPGBYYHjIICAIQABgWGB7SAQg5NjgyajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:918e706b,vid:NzbhbetwYFU,st:0
Quote from: katkavage on March 04, 2024, 02:12:55 PMI would discount anyone's opinion on Jones in the Giant bubble. He's a great kid who works hard, is a good teammate, and always says the right thing. It's difficult not to root for him. But you have to forget all that and look at the production--not the potential in year six. He's never put up numbers. He played well in 2022 mainly managing the game, using his legs and benefiting from a healthy Barkley. But even in 2022 he didn't really beat any good teams or put up impressive passing numbers. Right now his biggest problem is that he is injury prone. I feel many of the injuries, especially the upper body ones, are due to his lack of athletic instincts, which also show in his slow processing. He doesn't even know how to slide properly and runs upright not protecting his body, thus the hits on him, can be brutal. But his a good, strong athlete who can run and throw. That hasn't translated to much beyond a good 2022 where the team won many close games.
He was 3-5-1 to end his season in 2022. They took the league by surprise by beating some bad teams to start the year.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 02:19:36 PMHe was 3-5-1 to end his season in 2022. They took the league by surprise by beating some bad teams to start the year.
He had a great game against the Colts at the end of the year when they were tanking. And then beat a mediocre Minnesota team that had a dreadful defense and a very raw rookie coach.
Quote from: katkavage on March 04, 2024, 02:26:37 PMHe had a great game against the Colts at the end of the year when they were tanking. And then beat a mediocre Minnesota team that had a dreadful defense and a very raw rookie coach.
That was the game plan. Look at the rushing numbers for both of those Viking games compared to the rest of the season. Daboll knew what they needed to do and he had a great game plan.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 02:13:19 PMYou're sure? How are you sure? Did you have a confidential conversation with them? The three Giants are company men and Kiper is a fool with a big mouth. This is what happens when they are too close to the forest for the trees and they try to please the owner. Even Daboll was visibly upset and frustrated with Jones. They thought he was developing after a good running attack and a bunch of short passes and his legs. Like I've said, with protection, Jones can put up some good stats and win games. However, when the pressure is on and it's big moments, he folds. Tommy DeVito and Tyrod Taylor had better results and they are middling QB's. Ahh, wait. They had Thomas at LT, except for games 6-8.
Schoen went off of one year under Daboll and thought he had a Franchise QB. He's also made other questionable decisions. So had Daboll. The slack in their rope is very short. If they don't draft a QB this year, they are just as foolish as Mel Kiper.
When Daboll threw the Surface that's all I needed to see to know how Daboll really feels. Jones probably didn't see something, call an audible, adjust protections, take your pick, that Daboll went over with him 100x. After the toss Jones' expression was that of a kid caught taking too many Oreos out of the cookie jar. They want to draft a QB, and have permission to do so. It's a matter of feasibility.
What was the tag $ for QBs following'22 season? Is it possible that the cost might have hamstrung us and prevented signing Okereke and/or extension of Thomas or Dex?
Evan Neal was pure trash often not even getting a hand on a defender as he blew past him.
With Eli's very slow drop back and penchant for fumbling when getting sacked, how would he have done in 2023 behind that OL and all those 85 sacks?
In 2018 as a grizzled veteran and getting sacked only 47 times he completed 66% with only 21 TDs and 11 INTs.
In 2013 Eli got sacked only 39 times, he completed only 57.5% of his passes with 18 TDs and 27 INTs.
My guess is after 85 sacks Eli would be saying his name is Otto Graham and he plays safety for the Chicago Bears.
I am not supporting DJ but frankly tired of reading views that suggest his poor 2023 play is mostly on him. If true then let's blame Eli too.
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on March 04, 2024, 02:31:14 PMWhat was the tag $ for QBs following'22 season? Is it possible that the cost might have hamstrung us and prevented signing Okereke and/or extension of Thomas or Dex?
Dex's 23 Cap hit was 5.7 million and Thomas' was 9.2. Had nothing to do about finding 2023 cap space for them.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 04, 2024, 02:40:13 PMI am not supporting DJ but frankly tired of reading views that suggest his poor 2023 play is mostly on him. If true then let's blame Eli too.
Eli had two SB MVP seasons and under Gilbride, there was no adjustment to the poor 2013 Oline. He adjusted the next season but it was McAdoo who changed the Offense, changed his lead foot on the drop backs and Eli had a nice completion %. Are you really comparing the career of Daniel Jones to Eli Manning? Btw, nobody is saying it's all Jones's fault. This all goes back to a statement Adam Schein made about Schoen giving a huge contract to Jones. I agreed with him and that's how this all started.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 02:54:47 PMEli had two SB MVP seasons and under Gilbride, there was no adjustment to the poor 2013 Oline. He adjusted the next season but it was McAdoo who changed the Offense, changed his lead foot on the drop backs and Eli had a nice completion %. Are you really comparing the career of Daniel Jones to Eli Manning? Btw, nobody is saying it's all Jones's fault. This all goes back to a statement Adam Schein made about Schoen giving a huge contract to Jones. I agreed with him and that's how this all started.
Ed - where did I compare their careers? His 2 SB wins are irrelevant and a deflection to my point. My point is Eli had 1/2 the pressure and produced those stats. Imagine if he had double.
https://x.com/KidBlueRB27/status/1764266775951131009?
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 03:40:20 PMhttps://x.com/KidBlueRB27/status/1764266775951131009?
What were you saying about overstating opinions?
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 03:42:15 PMWhat were you saying about overstating opinions?
He nailed it.
Gettleman, the gift that keeps on giving.
Quote from: files58 on March 04, 2024, 03:53:29 PMGettleman, the gift that keeps on giving.
If it wasn't for the Senior Bowl, he might have picked Ryan Finley or Will Grier. So maybe we were lucky. Imagine carrying those two for 5 years and four more?
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 03:42:15 PMWhat were you saying about overstating opinions?
His 'opinion' is now supported by 5-years of objective data. Surely (don't call me...) at this point it's more than an opinion? I'm actually surprised some fans are still willing to entertain this discussion; In short, Todd Nailed it.
Nobody answered the question the other day, If Jones was a 100% healthy which NFL team this offseason would sign him and why? So many teams need Qbs, but what they already have is objectively better.
Quote from: kingm56 on March 04, 2024, 04:30:19 PMHis 'opinion' is now supported by 5-years of objective data. Surely (don't call me...) at this point it's more than an opinion? I'm actually surprised some fans are still willing to entertain this discussion; In short, Todd Nailed it.
The data is objective, the interpretation of the data is subjective I really don't know what is it about Jones that causes people to take extreme negative positions that is not supported by the tape or data.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 12:23:05 PMI have to agree with Adam Schein.
https://x.com/bigblueunited/status/1764325898000441612?
Yes, I agree with this take.
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 01:57:29 PMI am pretty sure Schoen and Daboll do not agree with your assertion that "Daniel Jones is a middling QB who crumbles under pressure, is slow to process, and still can't make protection adjustments or check out of a Pass to Run by counting the Box." If they did, they never would have signed DJ to the contract they did.
What matters is what they think now, today, not one year ago. If they believe in Jones today, they will spread out that $47mm 2024 cap hit. If they don't, they won't. Simple as that.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 04, 2024, 06:09:11 PMWhat matters is what they think now, today, not one year ago. If they believe in Jones today, they will spread out that $47mm 2024 cap hit. If they don't, they won't. Simple as that.
There are two major injuries that change the equation
Quote from: MightyGiants on March 04, 2024, 06:14:50 PMThere are two major injuries that change the equation
Would you say his play last year prior to the two injuries made the Giants brass feel good about their decision to give him all that money?
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 04, 2024, 06:26:31 PMWould you say his play last year prior to the two injuries made the Giants brass feel good about their decision to give him all that money?
Jones finished 4 games under the worst conditions. I can't imagine this poor sample set impacted the views of the brass significantly
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 02:45:10 PMDex's 23 Cap hit was 5.7 million and Thomas' was 9.2. Had nothing to do about finding 2023 cap space for them.
I don't pretend to know or understand that machinations behind the salary cap. In fact, just thinking about it makes my eyebrows hurt :D
But if the cap hit by signing Jones was approximately $11m less than the Franchise tag hit, how did it not help the team's cap health? I guess I really don't understand the cap economics
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on March 04, 2024, 06:26:31 PMWould you say his play last year prior to the two injuries made the Giants brass feel good about their decision to give him all that money?
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on March 04, 2024, 07:37:16 PMI don't pretend to know or understand that machinations behind the salary cap. In fact, just thinking about it makes my eyebrows hurt :D
But if the cap hit by signing Jones was approximately $11m less than the Franchise tag hit, how did it not help the team's cap health? I guess I really don't understand the cap economics
You asked if his cap savings helped sign Thomas and Dex. It didn't for year 2023 as I illustrated. However take a look at his cap hit this year. It hurts the team. $46 million along with the year two of Dex and Thomas.
Now they have to sign a FA QB that can play and be healthy because as Schoen said, he's coming off three injuries. They are considering drafting a QB and if it's first round that's not cheap and then they have to absorb Jones' dead Cap after 2024.
Joe Shoen has admitted in the past that he had wished he had picked up Daniel Jones' 5th year option instead of declining it. So, he has admitted that was a mistake, and if there are any more mistakes, well time will tell.
No one-Nadie-Personne- has been a bigger critic of John Mara for having hired old crony, Gettleman as GM based on Ernie's counterfeit recommendation. However, had G-man not been smitten with Barkley, we almost certainly would have had Sam Donald ready to succeed Eli. Some fun, eh?
And then if not for Justin Herbert's decision to stay and not enter the 2019 Draft, he no doubt would have been the Giants pick at 6 and not Daniel Jones. But alas, whether bad timing or bad luck, if indeed there is any a difference, no QB from that Draft has had other than a losing record to date. And silly as it might seem, Daniel Jones has had a better record in the past 2 years, 10-11-1 than has No.1 pick Kyler Murray's 6-13. Yuck!
And speaking of silly, what was that cockadoodle about McAdoo changing Eli's foot placement in the shotgun and with it the Offense leading to an 11-5 record before reality arrived in the PO game rout and then the following year when they went 3-13? So, was that because Eli decided to revert to right foot forward like most QBs not coached by left foot McCarthy's student, Ben McAdoo?
While in general, I thought McAdoo was a doofus as both an OC and a HC, I must give him credit for recognizing that despite the winning season in 2016, Eli's game was in rapid decline per his final 9-26 W-L, and so he urged the Giants to set their sights in the 2017 Draft on a guy named Patrick Mahomes who, as it turned out went to the Chiefs at 10 in a trade-up far head of the Giants pick at 23.
Of course, he didn't know how it would go at the time. In any case, when he talked to Chris Mara about it, he was told that they already were planning to draft a guy named Davis Webb should they need to replace Eli.
As I have said several times in the past few weeks, nothing much has changed in what obviously has been a losing decade- 2014-2023. But any day now, right?
Cheers!
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 04, 2024, 08:27:48 PMYou asked if his cap savings helped sign Thomas and Dex. It didn't for year 2023 as I illustrated. However take a look at his cap hit this year. It hurts the team. $46 million along with the year two of Dex and Thomas.
Now they have to sign a FA QB that can play and be healthy because as Schoen said, he's coming off three injuries. They are considering drafting a QB and if it's first round that's not cheap and then they have to absorb Jones' dead Cap after 2024.
:surrender: