I am not referring to the players, just the situation itself.
From the reporting we are actively looking to trade up and/or sign Russell Wilson too meaning Jones would be CUT before the season starts after JUST signing him to a long term deal where he is one of highest paid players in the NFL.
Pretty much everyone knew outside of some Giant fans this was a huge mistake, but who is to blame?
has it been reported how much influence Mara had on this? Or was this a purely Schoen decision? I have to think Daboll who has begrudgingly talked about Jones was not a major driving force behind the decision.
People say if the Giants have a poor year to fire Daboll and not Schoen.. whereas I see it the opposite. Daboll can only do so much with limited resources,
They aren't cutting Jones regardless of Wilson and/or drafting a QB
Daniel jones is not getting cut this year period. He can hang on the bench, but the last place he's going is the unemployment line.
The reason being is that we would have 47 million dollars In dead money which would put us in the negative on the cap. Great to realize they made a bad decision, but you don't follow that up with another bad decision.
Wait until 2025 and it's a 11 million dead cap with 30 in savings.
I want a new Qb more than anyone but cutting Jones this year does not benefit this team.
I don't know but I can't imagine anyone liking him as much as the Giants organization. There are still people wanting to build an offensive line for him as if it's all their fault. I'm glad it sounds like they're planning on moving on if the rumors are actually true.
Who is to blame?? Eli endorsed him and still does. Which means Mara does too I guess. Gettleman drafted him although maybe his hand was forced by the situation. Then Schoen gives him this joke of a contract. I think I blame Schoen most unless there's something we don't know. I thought last year was the perfect opportunity to walk away. Go sign Baker I said. That would have been perfectly fine. Jones couldn't even stay healthy enough to get a higher pick in the draft.
I knew our season was cooked the opening drive of the season. All runs, no passing threat then we go backwards and miss a FG or have it blocked, it's a blur now. Nevermind the Philly playoff blowout. I don't know what people see in this guy.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 08, 2024, 08:08:04 PMDaniel jones is not getting cut this year period. He can hang on the bench, but the last place he's going is the unemployment line.
The reason being is that we would have 47 million dollars In dead money which would put us in the negative on the cap. Great to realize they made a bad decision, but you don't follow that up with another bad decision.
Wait until 2025 and it's a 11 million dead cap with 30 in savings.
I want a new Qb more than anyone but cutting Jones this year does not benefit this team.
ok not cut, but I mean "not playing at all" so he avoids injury and the cap issues with that
Quote from: StompYouOT on March 08, 2024, 11:17:57 PMWho is to blame?? Eli endorsed him and still does. Which means Mara does too I guess. Gettleman drafted him although maybe his hand was forced by the situation. Then Schoen gives him this joke of a contract. I think I blame Schoen most unless there's something we don't know. I thought last year was the perfect opportunity to walk away. Go sign Baker I said. That would have been perfectly fine. Jones couldn't even stay healthy enough to get a higher pick in the draft.
I knew our season was cooked the opening drive of the season. All runs, no passing threat then we go backwards and miss a FG or have it blocked, it's a blur now. Nevermind the Philly playoff blowout. I don't know what people see in this guy.
Eli would endorse anyone who became the Giants QB, I doubt he ever says he does not like someone. I blame Schoen the most too. And I agree on Baker!! Even Gardner would have worked.
Jones is to blame for Jones. Nobody else. His refusal to learn or even practice looking off the safety is his biggest roadblock. The league now knows where his eyes go, so too will the ball go. People have debated this but all during the playoffs it was stated how QBs eyes kept the safety honest for just long enough.
When you watch jones drop back in practice, he still doesn't even attempt to practice this skill. It has caused his game to summit where it is and that is unfortunate.
Mara wanted him drafted and Mara wanted him signed last off season.
Pretty cut and dry to me.
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Don't you folks know it's all the fickle fans fault? Come on now... no QB could survive with perennial Offensive Line woes that struggle in pass protection. The pressure was insurmountable. Furthermore, not having a legitimate number one Receiver and bringing in a slew of Slot Receivers and a gimpy and expensive Tight End tying up precious Cap Space was a detriment in signing competent FA's to fortify that line or to get that Elite Receiver.
Now Mara reads the Fan Base's uneducated conclusions and will have another overreaction by forcing Schoen to Draft the next Eli Clone. Of course that QB will fail too as no QB, not even Mahomes or Josh Allen can overcome such adverse playing conditions.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 09, 2024, 08:39:06 AMDon't you folks know it's all the fickle fans fault? Come on now... no QB could survive with perennial Offensive Line woes that struggle in pass protection. The pressure was insurmountable. Furthermore, not having a legitimate number one Receiver and bringing in a slew of Slot Receivers and a gimpy and expensive Tight End tying up precious Cap Space was a detriment in signing competent FA's to fortify that line or to get that Elite Receiver.
Now Mara reads the Fan Base's uneducated conclusions and will have another overreaction by forcing Schoen to Draft the next Eli Clone. Of course that QB will fail too as no QB, not even Mahomes or Josh Allen can overcome such adverse playing conditions.
Almost forgot...
/sarcasm/ /sarcasm/ /sarcasm/
The problem i think was.
He played well.enought to.win a playoff game and dabold winning coach of the year
The team.wanted to see what they had in him
Now they know
I didnt see what else they coule.of done
Pay him less.or tag him
But to let him.test the free market would.of been crazy
Cause they how would he have repsect of the team when everyone knows no.other team.wanted him
They should.of tagged him
But
Would it be bad to draft a QB sit him.for. a year behind Jones
No mattee what you think about D Jones
He works hard
Quote from: ralphpal1 on March 09, 2024, 11:10:39 AMThe problem i think was.
He played well.enought to.win a playoff game and dabold winning coach of the year
The team.wanted to see what they had in him
Now they know
I didnt see what else they coule.of done
Pay him less.or tag him
But to let him.test the free market would.of been crazy
Cause they how would he have repsect of the team when everyone knows no.other team.wanted him
They should.of tagged him
But
Would it be bad to draft a QB sit him.for. a year behind Jones
No mattee what you think about D Jones
He works hard
Part of the reason was Dabol coached to win. Last year he did not
Who is most to blame?
Schoen and his scoutes for having no clue about O line talent and how to fix that unit.
Simple answer: the friggin OL
2022 - played 16 games and sacked 44 times. Threw like 15 TDs to 5 INTs
2023 - played 6 games and sacked 30 times. Threw 2 TDs to 6 INTs. YPC and YPA down about 2 yards each from 2022 due to way more pressure.
Just look at 2022 vs 2023. 30 sacks in 6 games projects ti almost 90 sacks over 17 games vs only 44 sacks in 2022z. That is only sacks. Add in pressure.
This is pretty friggin easy to figure out.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 10, 2024, 10:09:40 AMSimple answer: the friggin OL
2022 - played 16 games and sacked 44 times. Threw like 15 TDs to 5 INTs
2023 - played 6 games and sacked 30 times. Threw 2 TDs to 6 INTs. YPC and YPA down about 2 yards each from 2022 due to way more pressure.
Just look at 2022 vs 2023. 30 sacks in 6 games projects ti almost 90 sacks over 17 games vs only 44 sacks in 2022z. That is only sacks. Add in pressure.
This is pretty friggin easy to figure out.
That still doesn't explain him throwing the ball though. They knew it was an issue in 2022. He only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving. The signs were there. He had 10 games under 200 yards passing, and 4 games were he was right at 200 yards passing. There were games were he wouldn't throw for the entire quarter, but you'd pay a guy you won't let throw the ball for 1/4th of the game.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 10, 2024, 10:18:24 AMThat still doesn't explain him throwing the ball though. They knew it was an issue in 2022. He only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving. The signs were there. He had 10 games under 200 yards passing, and 4 games were he was right at 200 yards passing. There were games were he wouldn't throw for the entire quarter, but you'd pay a guy you won't let throw the ball for 1/4th of the game.
There is the issue of installing an intermediate passing game and giving it Camp priority while holding Wink back most of the Camp from being aggressive. They were never battle ready. Dallas exposed the weakness and the season ensued. Not that it's an excuse for the other issues.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 10, 2024, 10:18:24 AMThat still doesn't explain him throwing the ball though. They knew it was an issue in 2022. He only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving. The signs were there. He had 10 games under 200 yards passing, and 4 games were he was right at 200 yards passing. There were games were he wouldn't throw for the entire quarter, but you'd pay a guy you won't let throw the ball for 1/4th of the game.
I did not say he was All Pro. 2022 was objectively much better than 2023 and that is because of the OL.
Other factors like long passes are another issue however if 2023 had similar blocking as 2022, maybe other negative factors would have improved theough another year in Dabs/Kafka's system. We wont ever know because blocking collapsed in 2023.
Quote from: Ed Vette on March 10, 2024, 11:12:52 AMThere is the issue of installing an intermediate passing game and giving it Camp priority while holding Wink back most of the Camp from being aggressive. They were never battle ready. Dallas exposed the weakness and the season ensued. Not that it's an excuse for the other issues.
I agree, the preseason didn't help either. Should have been more emphasis on how badly outclassed they looked vs the Lions when they went to Detriot.
Quote from: Philosophers on March 10, 2024, 11:13:32 AMI did not say he was All Pro. 2022 was objectively much better than 2023 and that is because of the OL.
Other factors like long passes are another issue however if 2023 had similar blocking as 2022, maybe other negative factors would have improved theough another year in Dabs/Kafka's system. We wont ever know because blocking collapsed in 2023.
No I know, I'm just saying that from 2022 to 2023 they knew that Jones intermediate passing, and deep game were a glaring hole and nothing was done.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 10, 2024, 10:18:24 AMThat still doesn't explain him throwing the ball though. They knew it was an issue in 2022. He only had 2 passes beyond 20 yards before Thanksgiving. The signs were there. He had 10 games under 200 yards passing, and 4 games were he was right at 200 yards passing. There were games were he wouldn't throw for the entire quarter, but you'd pay a guy you won't let throw the ball for 1/4th of the game.
Going to disagree about the deep game. Jones throws a pretty good deep ball. But, he needed time for the WRs to get open if they did get open.
Quote from: nb587 on March 10, 2024, 01:36:01 PMGoing to disagree about the deep game. Jones throws a pretty good deep ball. But, he needed time for the WRs to get open if they did get open.
He throws a decent ball, the problem is 100% mental on his intermediate and deep balls. He either refuses to go there or doesn't process the play fast enough
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 10, 2024, 02:44:50 PMHe throws a decent ball, the problem is 100% mental on his intermediate and deep balls. He either refuses to go there or doesn't process the play fast enough
Yes. I agree with the ladder....he simply doesn't process fast enough and too often realizes it just late enough to panic forcing a bad pass or taking a sack.
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Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on March 10, 2024, 04:22:07 PMYes. I agree with the ladder....he simply doesn't process fast enough and too often realizes it just late enough to panic forcing a bad pass or taking a sack.
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Or he's feeling pressure from a few pressure points. Or, he's feeling pressure after being sacked or rushed constantly. Or the receivers going deep are not getting separation or are running the wrong pattern. Or, Garrett's coaching was internalized to avoid turnovers and he's been coached to avoid turnovers.
Not a loaded question. How does a fan watching a game on television ( or even at a game) know that Jones does not process whats in front on him as opposed to any number of legitimate explanations for a play not working?
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on March 10, 2024, 04:22:07 PMYes. I agree with the ladder....he simply doesn't process fast enough and too often realizes it just late enough to panic forcing a bad pass or taking a sack.
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I also think the rest of the league has increasingly caught on to his weaknesses, and I therefore think defenses are able to throw more stunts, blitzes, and other normally riskier plays against him because they simply don't fear him going downfield off script. I think this is the reality with him, and I think it is the reason why you have seen some of these recent side-narratives pop up trying to claim that the same O line randomly played much better for Taylor and DeVito and that Jones himself had nothing to do with any of this. That explanation never rang true for me.
Although, I think of it as a vacuous waste of time- which may be what we are actually seeking- I suppose the need to assign blame is understandable given that the team has been a stink show the for the past decade, for 11 years actually, notwithstanding the now recognizable two fraudulent winning seasons.
Given the apparent irresistibility of the blame game, we should first begin by eliminating any and all blame in regard to Daniel Jones whether in terms of performance or compensation. Get your feet off his neck. And if you need a place to put them, I suggest starting with the necks of the two incompetent, meddling Maras, John and Chris.
Here is how and why. They created the sham in which Ernie Accorsi had to "recommend" that they hire a bloviating old crony- key word, CRONY- Dave Gettleman to succeed former and not always previously unsuccessful Coughlin-era Jerry Reese as GM.
Whatever we may think of Gettleman's single-minded decision to use the No.2 overall pick on Saquon Barkley, the alternative almost certainly would have been Sam Darnold. Whether or not Darnold would have more been successful in his 6 seasons (21-35) than Daniel Jones (22-36-1) in 5, is a moot issue. Yeah, I know Darold would have cost a lot less whether or not Gettleman would have ditched him after 3 years and left it to someone even more foolish, like Carolina, to do it for him.
In any case, I felt that Eli's 8-23 record in the 2 previous seasons had left Gman with little choice but to still look for someone who could succeed him despite the bad news that his first choice, Justin Herbert had decided to return and not enter in 2019.
Frankly, under the circumstances, I didn't view Daniel Jones as a bad pick. What I knew of him was that he was well-coached at Duke with and for a team lacking in pass receiving and pass protection ability and with much less than were his overall strengths v weaknesses.
In hindsight, which is all we have to guide us, I may have been wrong, but I can't really blame Gman for what I see more as misfortune than misadventure. That said, in most ways, Free Agency, the Draft, and in choosing HCs, he was a loser and a Salary Cap management disaster.
Now here we are 6 going on 7 years later with much the problems, old and new, still looking to find fault, for someone to blame, who can satisfy the needs of our biases and preconceptions. Take your pick, the Maras, Gettleman, Schoen and/or Daboll, OCs., Play Callers, Scouts, whomever or whatever we feel may a make difference in something which is as much about misfortune (Ownership?) as it is misadventure, and in no way is the fault of Daniel Jones.
Cheers!
Who's to blame ?
It STARTS with our scouting department.
Go to Youtube and watch his senior year game vs. Clemson.
His flaws and shortcomings are right there for all to see.
Games against pansy opponents should never be considered when developing an opinion about Jones.
I personally watched 4 or 5 of his games. And I have been sick to my stomach since the day we drafted him with the 6th pick.
A flyer in the 3rd or 4th round fine. 6th pick, well, there's a clue as to why we have stunk for sooooo long.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on March 10, 2024, 12:58:24 PMNo I know, I'm just saying that from 2022 to 2023 they knew that Jones intermediate passing, and deep game were a glaring hole and nothing was done.
What's glaring I think is that he took less shots than he should have. His accuracy is good.
Jones is the QB this year. Money talks. That said Jones is to blame for his performance. I re-watched the Houston/Giants game from 2022 on NFL network. It again highlighted the puzzling decisions he sometimes makes. Down a TD in the 4th quarter,ball around the 10, he drops back, not much pressure, looks ONE way only and throws the ball right to the defender for a pick. I have now ideas what he was looking at to throw that pass. Maybe it was a timing route but it wasn't open at all so throw it anyway? :doh: That is what is wrong with Jones.
Quote from: expatriot on March 11, 2024, 09:56:02 AMJones is the QB this year. Money talks. That said Jones is to blame for his performance. I re-watched the Houston/Giants game from 2022 on NFL network. It again highlighted the puzzling decisions he sometimes makes. Down a TD in the 4th quarter,ball around the 10, he drops back, not much pressure, looks ONE way only and throws the ball right to the defender for a pick. I have now ideas what he was looking at to throw that pass. Maybe it was a timing route but it wasn't open at all so throw it anyway? :doh: That is what is wrong with Jones.
You are 100% correct. It's amazing people seemingly do not accept this in their evaluations of Jones.