Paul Schwartz tends to publish whatever the Giants wish to be published. So this commentary in his latest article is likely what the Giants wanted Jones to hear (just indirectly) in my opinion.
It does no one any good to sugarcoat any of this. Jones needs to accept what the Giants tried to do on draft night, use it to fuel his comeback. Show some defiance. Outwardly, Jones does not show much of anything. Inwardly, he must do everything in his power to send a message to the Giants that trying to replace him was foolhardy. The deck might be stacked against him but that does not mean he has no shot.
https://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1784926790361702467
(https://pbs.twimg.com/card_img/1784931704173424641/6DlTCePX?format=jpg&name=360x360)
Daniel is an astute young man. I'm sure he could read the tea leafs.
It's down to him to justify the pay cheque with both availability and performance.
Motivation and work ethic have never been things I question about Jones. His ability to play NFL football on the other hand...
Meaning I don't think any sort of message even needs to be sent. He's trying to be the absolute best he can be every year he's just not very good at this. Few people are. That's why they get paid so much money!
I don't think Maye would have been much better though so I'm kinda glad that deal never actually happened.
Quote from: Gmo11 on April 29, 2024, 09:57:21 AMMotivation and work ethic have never been things I question about Jones. His ability to play NFL football on the other hand...
Meaning I don't think any sort of message even needs to be sent. He's trying to be the absolute best he can be every year he's just not very good at this. Few people are. That's why they get paid so much money!
I don't think Maye would have been much better though so I'm kinda glad that deal never actually happened.
You make a very fair point. Although, I suspect the Giants would like to see Jones show a bit more fire and passion.
He absolutely needs to show more fire and passion. I definitely question whether Daboll and Schoen really need to send that message through the media, though. If they feel they need to do it that way they're pretty shitty leaders and have been way too soft on DJ. It's time to suck it up and perform or go home, simple as that.
I also think this is a message to fans who are in two groups, for the want of better phrase:
Group A - those who want to move on the message was we know you think we need to move from Jones, we tried.
Group B - those who want to give Jones a weapon and a line etc. We are now out of excuses, he's having a beer in the last chance saloon. If he wants another drink, he sure as hell better produce.
If Daniel goes into a shell it would be bad. But if he uses this as fuel for the fire it could be a big positive.
He came in last year on a mission. I don't think his preseason performance was a fluke. The issue was preseason doesn't reveal the warts of an OL nearly as much as the regular season does. The OL was the major contributing factor behind the offense falling apart and Bobby Johnson was a big part of that too.
If that theory is correct then he could perhaps have a big rebound this year. Though I so badly wanted Maye I can also accept that Daniel could be pretty good with a better cast too.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 29, 2024, 10:13:24 AMHe absolutely needs to show more fire and passion. I definitely question whether Daboll and Schoen really need to send that message through the media, though. If they feel they need to do it that way they're pretty shitty leaders and have been way too soft on DJ. It's time to suck it up and perform or go home, simple as that.
Parcells was famous for sending messages via the press. I am pretty sure most don't consider him a "shitty leader"
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:07:56 AMYou make a very fair point. Although, I suspect the Giants would like to see Jones show a bit more fire and passion.
I think he has an interal fire burning to be good. He just doesn't show it overtly kinda like Eli.
That's not necessarily an issue in my mind at least.
The one thing we really don't know about Jones is how much his teammates genuinely believe in his leadership and trust his ability to win games.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:07:56 AMYou make a very fair point. Although, I suspect the Giants would like to see Jones show a bit more fire and passion.
That's never been who he is. It would be forced. And people can tell when you're pretending to be something you're not (especially these guys, who brim with confidence). He was chosen to be the stoic, lead-by-example QB akin to Eli--except that only works if you're good enough on the field, which Jones has not proven to be. Assuredly all respect Jones, but Saquon was the emotional leader of the team.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2024, 10:21:51 AMI think he has an interal fire burning to be good. He just doesn't show it overtly kinda like Eli.
That's not necessarily an issue in my mind at least.
Eli was a quiet leader, but Eli was smarter than most give him credit for. While he had that quiet, laid-back public demeanor, he was also clever enough to send messages when they needed to be sent. The quiet laid back leadership style is a tough one for an NFL QB to pull off. I suspect the more firey leadership style is easier to pull off, and it seems like the Giants would like to see Jones try.
I remember a month or so ago, Phil Simms saying words to the effect of, he need to adopt an "FU, I am going to win and keep my job" attitude
Here is a Tweet from the other Giants' mouthpiece
https://x.com/GiantInsider/status/1784951912430727590
I know I've been pretty harsh on Jones and Eric Gray recently, but for the record I'm going to be 100% supportive of both once the season starts.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 29, 2024, 10:24:27 AMThat's never been who he is. It would be forced. And people can tell when you're pretending to be something you're not (especially these guys, who brim with confidence). He was chosen to be the stoic, lead-by-example QB akin to Eli--except that only works if you're good enough on the field, which Jones has not proven to be. Assuredly all respect Jones, but Saquon was the emotional leader of the team.
I am likening it to the Tom Coughlin transformation. Tom didn't change who he was, he just made some minor adjustments to his approach so people could see who he was all about. I suspect Jones could do something similar.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:20:26 AMParcells was famous for sending messages via the press. I am pretty sure most don't consider him a "shitty leader"
You can't be telling me that Phil Simms or any other QBs Parcells coached ever had any doubt exactly where they stood from Parcells' own mouth. I am 100% positive he did not need to send any messages through the press to his quarterbacks. It's one of the reasons why he WAS such a great leader.
Also not saying Daboll isn't - I find it hard to believe that DJ needs to have a message sent through the media. If he does, he's a lot weaker than I've given him credit for.
If Daniel is what we think or hope he is he will come in no different than last year. On a mission. I don't think it was for lack of effort it was just a historically bad OL that messed with his head. It derailed the entire season.
I know it's 5 years in and the fan base has justifiably lost patience. However, it doesn't change the fact that we all have mostly agreed that he has never had a good system to operate in. I think the issue is people look at that it's been 5 years and the talent has yet to convert to high level production. Now some just say he isn't a talented QB so even with better talent it won't make a difference. Well hopefully this is the year we finally find this out. Because if the OL is even average or the WR group is even average for that matter that will be about 5 levels above anything DJ has had to work with his entire career. :surprise: :scared: :crazy:
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 29, 2024, 10:33:25 AMYou can't be telling me that Phil Simms or any other QBs Parcells coached ever had any doubt exactly where they stood from Parcells' own mouth. I am 100% positive he did not need to send any messages through the press to his quarterbacks. It's one of the reasons why he WAS such a great leader.
Also not saying Daboll isn't - I find it hard to believe that DJ needs to have a message sent through the media. If he does, he's a lot weaker than I've given him credit for.
Do you remember Parcells famously, referring to oft-injured (at the time) WR Terry Glenn as "she" to the press?
Not that it soured their relationship as years later:
QuoteSo when Parcells became coach of the Dallas Cowboys in January, Glenn told his agent to get him there, too. The player fans might have thought was the last Parcells would ever acquire wound up being the first to follow him to Texas, and both are thrilled with the reunion.
https://www.heraldtribune.com/story/news/2003/07/31/glenn-parcells-go-far-beyond-she-remark/28758882007/
Overweening nonsense. Everyone has an opinion- with media it's always self-servicing- nor are fans short of advice and counsel, none of which matters diddlysquat to anyone on the roster or staff.
Cheers!
Why do said tweets need to be an explicit message from the team? IMO, they represent nothing more than common sense based on facts.
It's well known the Giants attempted to trade up for Drake; it's also well known DJs contract has an escape clause after this season. It should also be known DJ hasn't been very good and/or healthy. Thus, do we/Dj need a message from the team that states the obvious?
Quote from: kingm56 on April 29, 2024, 10:49:01 AMWhy do said tweets need to be an explicit message from the team? IMO, they represent nothing more than common sense based on facts.
It's well known the Giants attempted to trade up for Drake; it's also well known DJs contract has an escape clause after this season. It should also be known DJ hasn't been very good and/or healthy. Thus, do we/Dj need a message from the team that states the obvious?
Actions > words
Quote from: kingm56 on April 29, 2024, 10:49:01 AMWhy do said tweets need to be an explicit message from the team? IMO, they represent nothing more than common sense based on facts.
It's well known the Giants attempted to trade up for Drake; it's also well known DJs contract has an escape clause after this season. It should also be known DJ hasn't been very good and/or healthy. Thus, do we/Dj need a message from the team that states the obvious?
Matt,
The two beat-writers I cited both post what the team wishes to be posted. While there were plenty of insiders reporting the Giants tried to trade up to the third pick to draft Maye, it was still pretty much rumor. With these two reports, I think it's fair to move it from rumor (with a strong possibility of being true) to now given fact.
To your question, I wouldn't say "need" but I would say, "it can't hurt"
Schoen is on the line with the QB as well. They are tied together (even though he never drafted him). If it goes bad for Jones, it reflects poorly on Schoen. While if it goes very good for him, Schoen shines.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 29, 2024, 10:29:25 AMI know I've been pretty harsh on Jones and Eric Gray recently, but for the record I'm going to be 100% supportive of both once the season starts.
Same here!
To be honest, right now I have less confidence in Jones' ability to stay healthy than I do in his ability to move the football.
Quote from: katkavage on April 29, 2024, 11:02:17 AMSchoen is on the line with the QB as well. They are tied together (even though he never drafted him). If it goes bad for Jones, it reflects poorly on Schoen. While if it goes very good for him, Schoen shines.
I partially agree, mostly because he did ultimately give him the contract. However, I think Mara was behind it. I think Schoen would have been OK letting Jones test the market and come back with a "match it" opportunity. Because Mara wanted to keep Jones, the compromise was the 2-year out.
I don't think there is one fan who believes Schoen is all-in on Jones. I don't think the stink will be on Schoen if Jones doesn't live up to the expectations, whatever they may be. If nothing else, the cries for a new QB will be even louder.
I was going to start another thread on a thought I had, but let's run it hear.
Many people have said and it is true, that Eli started out very poorly also. Thinking, about what really helped Eli become a much better QB, Plax and his ability to catch all the misguided passes that Eli threw to him. I'm sure there were many decent passes, but mostly I remember Plax using all his 6' whatever frame and arms to haul in many passes that were overthrown, underthrown, etc. Could Nabers be the Plax for Jones?
Most know and I won't deny it, I would like anyone other than Jones to be our QB, but he is our QB and I would never root for him to fail. If Nabers can do for Jones what Plax did for Eli, maybe there is hope out there.
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:16:05 PMI was going to start another thread on a thought I had, but let's run it hear.
Many people have said and it is true, that Eli started out very poorly also. Thinking, about what really helped Eli become a much better QB, Plax and his ability to catch all the misguided passes that Eli threw to him. I'm sure there were many, but mostly I remember Plax using all his 6'whatever frame and arms to haul in many passes that were overthrown, underthrown, etc. Could Nabers be the Palx for Jones?
Most know and I won't deny it, I would like anyone other than Jones to be our QB, but he is our QB and I would never root for him to fail. If Nabers can do for Jones what Palx did for Eli, maybe there is hope out there.
Reasoned thoughts, Len. Remember that the book on Josh Allen was still undetermined until the Bills added Diggs.
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:16:05 PMI was going to start another thread on a thought I had, but let's run it hear.
Many people have said and it is true, that Eli started out very poorly also. Thinking, about what really helped Eli become a much better QB, Plax and his ability to catch all the misguided passes that Eli threw to him. I'm sure there were many, but mostly I remember Plax using all his 6'whatever frame and arms to haul in many passes that were overthrown, underthrown, etc. Could Nabers be the Palx for Jones?
Most know and I won't deny it, I would like anyone other than Jones to be our QB, but he is our QB and I would never root for him to fail. If Nabers can do for Jones what Palx did for Eli, maybe there is hope out there.
Lenn,
This is an excellent observation and one I sincerely hope reigns true
Quote from: LennG on April 29, 2024, 12:16:05 PMI was going to start another thread on a thought I had, but let's run it hear.
Many people have said and it is true, that Eli started out very poorly also. Thinking, about what really helped Eli become a much better QB, Plax and his ability to catch all the misguided passes that Eli threw to him. I'm sure there were many, but mostly I remember Plax using all his 6'whatever frame and arms to haul in many passes that were overthrown, underthrown, etc. Could Nabers be the Palx for Jones?
Most know and I won't deny it, I would like anyone other than Jones to be our QB, but he is our QB and I would never root for him to fail. If Nabers can do for Jones what Palx did for Eli, maybe there is hope out there.
Very good perspective, Len. I know you wouldn't root for him to fail.
But call me and tell me your REAL thoughts! =))
I also want to see Jones healthy first, and then playing lights out. Quite honestly, I'm hopeful that he plays well but not very optimistic. Like you, I will be rooting for him to prove me wrong.
I dont think this is any type of shock to jones. He knows a lot of people are gunning for him to be replaced, namely the fans. He knows he needs to do better. It must be quite frustrating, considering the fact that yes, he needs to play better...he had absolutely ZERO to work with. Having been in a similar situation at work, I can totally understand that. Being extremely competent, but having to rely on everyone else to do their job, or else YOU fail.
Really for the first time (on paper anyway), we have what appears to be a competent team. if he cant make it work, anyone and everyone is ready to move on. last year was more of a practice in favor of him than against, considering how poor EVERYONE on offense played.
Hopefully he sees that this is truly the last chance, and puts up some wins (and maybe some top 15 qb stats).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 10:59:37 AMMatt,
The two beat-writers I cited both post what the team wishes to be posted. While there were plenty of insiders reporting the Giants tried to trade up to the third pick to draft Maye, it was still pretty much rumor. With these two reports, I think it's fair to move it from rumor (with a strong possibility of being true) to now given fact.
To your question, I wouldn't say "need" but I would say, "it can't hurt"
Neither can it help, so why bother with such overweening nonsense which serves no purpose for anyone other than for the supposed special purpose messenger. Can't we do better than waste time with such stuff even if time wasting is about all we can do presently?
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on April 29, 2024, 02:21:12 PMNeither can it help, so why bother with such overweening nonsense which serves no purpose for anyone other than for the supposed special purpose messenger. Can't we do better than waste time with such stuff even if time wasting is about all we can do presently?
Cheers!
Larry,
Football is entertainment. Talking about football is entertainment. Let us not pretend we are ending world hunger or curing cancer here. We are just talking football with fellow knowledgeable fans.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 12:20:40 PMReasoned thoughts, Len. Remember that the book on Josh Allen was still undetermined until the Bills added Diggs.
Interesting. I actually saw the impact of Plax (and Shockey) a little differently. Plax was absolutely a security blanket for Eli and he really did pitch it up to him and expect him to make plays, which he often did. It certainly elevated the passing game, but I always thought it made Eli a worse QB....lazy.... I personally thought Eli became a better QB after Plax was gone and he couldn't rely on that chuck it up mentality and had to refine his game more.
With Shockey, I think he had an overall negative impact on Eli also because he was so demanding about getting the ball in his hands- that Eli grew as a passer when Shockey left also.
Back to DJ- I don't think Nabers is a chuck it up type of receiver, for better or worse. The better comparison to Plax probably would have been Odunze, but who's to tell?
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2024, 10:35:58 AMIf Daniel is what we think or hope he is he will come in no different than last year. On a mission. I don't think it was for lack of effort it was just a historically bad OL that messed with his head. It derailed the entire season.
I know it's 5 years in and the fan base has justifiably lost patience. However, it doesn't change the fact that we all have mostly agreed that he has never had a good system to operate in. I think the issue is people look at that it's been 5 years and the talent has yet to convert to high level production. Now some just say he isn't a talented QB so even with better talent it won't make a difference. Well hopefully this is the year we finally find this out. Because if the OL is even average or the WR group is even average for that matter that will be about 5 levels above anything DJ has had to work with his entire career. :surprise: :scared: :crazy:
He came in on a mission and blew up before take off. His 1 series vs Carolina (who was horrible) gave people false hope. Even though it was abundantly clear that we were inferior to a detriot team we practiced with in camp. People just ignored that detriot dominated us in practice because of the generic series in Carolina.
Same exact thing happened at the end of 2022, Jones played well vs a historically bad Vikings D that he had just seen while getting smashed by the eagles the following week and putting up embarrassing numbers but people seem to only remember the Vikings game.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 29, 2024, 12:20:40 PMReasoned thoughts, Len. Remember that the book on Josh Allen was still undetermined until the Bills added Diggs.
Josh Allen was MVP material in his 3rd year, kinda hard to compare his book to Jones in year 6.
I find it interesting many here are still couching things as "fans" being "done with" Jones, ignoring the fact that the front office literally (and in a well-documented manner) just attempted to pay a huge price to jump up three spots to move on from him. Jones very well might have a better year in 2024, but unless he's magically an MVP candidate, his time with the Giants will end after his current contract.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 29, 2024, 10:28:08 PMI find it interesting many here are still couching things as "fans" being "done with" Jones, ignoring the fact that the front office literally (and in a well-documented manner) just attempted to pay a huge price to jump up three spots to move on from him. Jones very well might have a better year in 2024, but unless he's magically an MVP candidate, his time with the Giants will end after his current contract.
i think its just more they were in a position to get their next guy, rather than being completely done with jones. jones is halfway through a lackluster career, and has had some serious injuries in that time. i think they are more concerned about him staying healthy than his play, which probably isnt far behind. a contingency plan has to be put in place at this point
Quote from: B1GBLUE on April 30, 2024, 04:17:30 PMi think its just more they were in a position to get their next guy, rather than being completely done with jones. jones is halfway through a lackluster career, and has had some serious injuries in that time. i think they are more concerned about him staying healthy than his play, which probably isnt far behind. a contingency plan has to be put in place at this point
But they weren't in a position to get their next guy--that would have been top-3. They tried to manufacture a way to get the next QB via a trade. While I agree with you that health is a serious concern, I do not dismiss Jones's ineffective play. Daboll's sideline frustrations and comments in post-game pressers do not reflect a coaching staff content with Jones's production on the field when healthy. Trading up for a top-3 QB prospect at the expense of future draft capital is not just a "contingency plan," that is a (potentially costly) attempt at moving on. Drew Lock is the injury contingency plan.
Lombardi basically nixes NYG wanted Alt. Heard him say this morning if NYG really wanted to take Alt, they would have likely traded with Arizona and moved up to 4. Ossenfort was looking to trade but once Maye got drafted by NE, NYG was no longer interested in trading up. Arizona most likely still gets Harrison at 6 as LAC was going OL.
The leak to Schefter was supposedly to show public support for Jones
Don't think we tried to get Maye.
NE needed a QB badly, no one contests this.
It would take a franchise altering haul to get them off Maye.
Maye was not getting to 4.
NE made the pick with 5 Minutes left on the clock.
The only media plant by NY that makes sense is this interest in a QB.
We drafted a WR
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 29, 2024, 10:13:24 AMHe absolutely needs to show more fire and passion. I definitely question whether Daboll and Schoen really need to send that message through the media, though. If they feel they need to do it that way they're pretty shitty leaders and have been way too soft on DJ. It's time to suck it up and perform or go home, simple as that.
I'm afraid I have to agree with this. It's kind of hard to show fire and passion after getting the daylights beaten out of you, game after game, and then have your knee shredded like southern BBQ.
But, maybe some QBs get fired up over that stuff; heck, I don't know! But, if they do, I can promise them, when they reach my age, they'll be popping and clinking around with their replacement knees and their hips on borrowed time ... take it to the bank!
Hoorah ... hips replaced tomorrow, my brain the following week ... I feel just as great as just before that first ACL tear ... I'm a rarin' to go!!!
Let's have a reality check on the fire lighting, unless you've brought the marshmallows!!
Peace!