In the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.
Consider:
1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option
2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)
3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy
4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets. He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)
Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried. He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-4 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium. He earned himself a solid contract.
From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again. I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park. I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.
If we are being honest he responded in 2022 by putting up the same production as Davis Mills, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson in what was considered the worst seasons of their career.
Let's just hope the running games and defense can carry him again.
I just don't understand the need to pump Jones up when everyone knows what he us at this point. A middling Qb that refuses to throw the ball deep and now he can't run.
If anything hope he sits on the bench and Lock starts so that we at least get the ball thrown down field and don't have to risk Jones getting injured again and his contract being guaranteed in 2025.
This is the Carolina preseason game all over again. How many times does Jones have to let you down for you to finally realize he's not it? Genuinely curious because we are past half a decade at this point and it's meh.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 30, 2024, 10:01:08 AMIf we are being honest he responded in 2022 by putting up the same production as Davis Mills, Matt Ryan, and Russell Wilson in what was considered the worst seasons of their career.
Let's just hope the running games and defense can carry him again.
I just don't understand the need to pump Jones up when everyone knows what he us at this point. A middling Qb that refuses to throw the ball deep and now he can't run.
If anything hope he sits on the bench and Lock starts so that we at least get the ball thrown down field and don't have to risk Jones getting injured again and his contract being guaranteed in 2025.
This is the Carolina preseason game all over again. How many times does Jones have to let you down for you to finally realize he's not it? Genuinely curious because we are past half a decade at this point and it's meh.
Yeah, I'm all for being behind him for this year, pieces are in places and broadly everyone is out of excuses (despite the fact that ought to be the case last year).
There are no excuses. He's cut or re-worked at the end of year. If he's Davis Mills productive then we know which way it's gonna be.
And frankly, I reckon the vast majority of this knows which way it goes.
I am convinced that all Giants fans will root for Jones to succeed but the leash is shorter than my forearm, in my opinion.
Edit - the health next year isn't enough. He's proven to stay healthy once. He needs the numbers in his games that don't pad out his performance. He won't have Barkley to run to a 6-1 start - this is all on him. Let's see what he's got
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 30, 2024, 10:08:54 AMeveryone is out of excuses (despite the fact that ought to be the case last year).
The Giants had the worst offensive line in the league last year
Jones was pressured more frequently and quickly than any QB
Jones had no receiving threat of note
I am not sure what you define as excuses, but for those of us who try to be fair in our evaluations (we don't use charged language like "excuses"), Jones was put in a terrible situation for a QB to do well. It's not to suggest that Jones doesn't need to step up his game, but I am not sure any QB could have done well in DJ's situation last year.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 30, 2024, 10:01:08 AMThis is the Carolina preseason game all over again. How many times does Jones have to let you down for you to finally realize he's not it?
Jess,
You were one of those who had written DJ's obituary before, only to discover you were premature. Why do you think you are correct this time?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 10:15:30 AMJess,
You were one of those who had written DJ's obituary before, only to discover you were premature. Why do you think you are correct this time?
Unfortunately, Jones doesn't get to play the AFC South (the Big 12 of the NFL) every year.
The AFC South and NFC North were pretty atrocious that year if I'm remembering correctly. Minnesota had some freakish streak of one-score differential wins that year.
Here is my daily prayer: "Dear Lord, please let our message board be something other than more discussions about Daniel Jones that have been discussed with the exact same points more than ten thousand times ad nauseam, by naysayers who are too obsessed with the subject to let it go and move on and cheer our glorious team...the horse is not only dead, but it has been beaten into dust and even the dust no longer exists as it has blown away with the wind. Please don't let it keep coming back...Amen"
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbF7RWK2/80f02fb81f6c2990343f2f021b6bfe48.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Giants tried to pay a ton to draft his replacement just a week ago. If not for the Patriots missing a chip-shot field goal and the Giants' defense pulling out some wins in the second half of the season with Devito at the helm, Drake Maye (or possibly Jayden Daniels) would already be on the roster. Giants were aware of the OL play in 2023--they still tried to replace Jones. Giants were aware of the state of the 2023 receiving corps (though advanced metrics love Wan'Dale and Hyatt was a well regarded pick)--they still tried to replace Jones. These were not mysteries or unforeseen circumstances and, importantly, they did not in any way affect the Giants determination that they would replace Jones with the #3 QB in the draft (and pay a premium for the privilege of so doing).
I don't see a realistic scenario where he is the Giants' long-term solution at QB. And I don't consider Jones magically playing like an MVP-caliber candidate to be realistic. It's possible he replicates 2022--maybe even marginally exceeds it--but that won't be good enough as the deal he got was premised on growth, not stagnation. The Giants gave themselves an out in his contract, as many of us identified at the time, for this precise scenario. I foresee them taking it.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 10:53:05 AMI don't see a realistic scenario where he is the Giants' long-term solution at QB. And I don't consider Jones magically playing like an MVP-caliber candidate to be realistic. It's possible he replicates 2022--maybe even marginally exceeds it--but that won't be good enough as the deal he got was premised on growth, not stagnation. The Giants gave themselves an out in his contract, as many of us identified at the time, for this precise scenario. I foresee them taking it.
To clarify, you don't see an MVP season from Jones; I don't think anyone has suggested that, and I would agree that it would be shocking to see an MVP-like season. On the other hand, you seem to suggest DJ can't improve his 2022 performance. That strikes at the point I was making with this thread. It's far from certain that he will improve on 2022, but I would suggest it wouldn't be surprising if Jones had that growth.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 11:04:08 AMTo clarify, you don't see an MVP season from Jones; I don't think anyone has suggested that, and I would agree that it would be shocking to see an MVP-like season. On the other hand, you seem to suggest DJ can't improve his 2022 performance. That strikes at the point I was making with this thread. It's far from certain that he will improve in 2022, but I would suggest it wouldn't be surprising if Jones had that growth.
Pretty sure I acknowledged that he could improve upon his 2022 play. That is within the realm of possibility. I'm saying that still won't be enough for him to be the Giants' long-term solution, as I don't see as realistic the level of play necessary in 2024 to sway the Giants from moving on from Jones. To wit, if they thought that was a reasonable scenario, they likely don't fight to pay a premium to draft Maye.
Based on his class and work ethic, Jones is an easy guy to root for, but I have a hard time picturing him at quarterback after 2026 for a myriad of reasons.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:37:43 AMIn the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.
Consider:
1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option
2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)
3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy
4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets. He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)
Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried. He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-4 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium. He earned himself a solid contract.
From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again. I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park. I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.
It's definitely a deja vu situation. The schedule is roughly comparable, and the off-season moves have been made to improve his supporting cast. So, for all intent and purpose, it's a one-year "prove-it" deal for him.
I agree that this is about as good a situation that he will have as a New York Giant and so now it is time to be as objective as possible, without mitigating circumstances, to fairly evaluate his performance (i.e. not Super Bowl QB or bust, but an honest QB assessment).
Peace!
(Edit to add)
When I wrote "prove-it," I wasn't referring to the New York Football Giants, or the Giants' fans. I agree with the rest here the Giants' brass have a Long-Range Business Plan which, highly likely, does not include Jones in that plan. Jones, by and large, is auditioning for the rest of the league right now.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 10:15:30 AMJess,
You were one of those who had written DJ's obituary before, only to discover you were premature. Why do you think you are correct this time?
virtually every major Nfl analyst and fan has acknowledged how horrible signing Jones was, so how was I premature?
There might be a handful of people including yourself that believe that the 2022 season was something other than a great mirage hiding Jones warts.
At one point is it Jones? Honestly what is it going to take because it is absurd at this point given his play.
That's how desperate this franchise has become for competent qb play that the fans are ok holding onto a backup qb for half a decade while other teams shed their bad mistakes immediately. Trubisky, Lance, Darnold, Wilson, fields etc teams shed them immediately and at this point I'd rather have most of those guys over Jones.
Not to drag this never-ending discussion out, but let me tell you a story about Terry Bradshaw. The first overall pick in 1970. In the first five years of his career, he threw 77 interceptions. His average QB rating was in the mid-50s, with a low of 34 and a high point of 64.1 (the only time he had a QB rating in the 60s). He was ridiculed by fans and analysts alike. He was called a bust and a rural hick that would never adjust to the sophistication of the NFL
After 5 years of hell, he only was a 4× Super Bowl champion (IX, X, XIII, XIV); 2× Super Bowl MVP (XIII, XIV); NFL Most Valuable Player (1978); First-team All-Pro (1978); 3× Pro Bowl (1975, 1978, 1979); 2× NFL passing touchdowns leader (1978, 1982); NFL 1970s All-Decade Team; and is enshrined in the Football Hall of Fame
The list is endless of QBs who had a tough going from the start (especially when going to a bad team and a revolving door of coaches and schemes), but patience sometimes pays off. As a note: DJ has been immensely better than Bradshaw in his first 5 years, who threw 40 interceptions (for which he was taken to the wood shed by everyone with a keyboard), and has had QB ratings of 87.7 (2019), followed by 80.4, 84.8, 92.5, and 70.5...and he has done so working behind the worst rated OL in the NFL and no star receivers. Let that sink in
Can't we all just get behind our QB and watch to see what happens. No one is going to change their opinion on DJ because a person brings up the exact same argument every day (often more than that, every day) for two years. No one is changing their minds after 1,356 posts with the same argument because the person repeated it 1,357 times and it finally "clicked". If a point in an argument is valid and obvious, it only has to be said once, otherwise, it's just an opinion stuck on repeat, like a broken record
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 30, 2024, 11:29:18 AMAt one point is it Jones?
In Jones' career has he ever had a top receiving threat to throw to?
In Jones' career has he ever been protected by a top 16 O-line (with most years being protected by a bottom 5)
Jones has had 3 HCs and 4 OCs in his 5 years.
Are you totally ruling out the possibility that the Oline is at least middle of the pack and the receivers prove to be actual NFL-caliber weapons; Combined with pretty good coaching, is it possible that Daniel Jones can have a pretty good season?
The haters-you know who y'are- gonna hate. Baiters gonna 'bate. Whereas, a true Giants fan will wish Daniel Jones good health, and everyone on the on the team and in the organization, success in the coming season.
In any case, we all know the very particular ifs, ands, and buts which are most likely to influence the eventual outcomes and decisions in due course, and sans our assistance.
Cheers!
Here are a list of the predictions the critics of Daniel Jones have gotten wrong.
A) No QB has ever been re-signed who has gotten his 5th year year option declined, they were wrong.
B) The Giants will draft their franchise QB this year, they were wrong.
C) Eisen before the draft "The Giants are absolutely done with Daniel Jones", they were wrong.
D) Here is the new one, they are now having to make up excuses as to why he succeeded in 2022, instead of actually acknowledging that he played well, they were wrong.
The question is, what are these critics going to do if DJ plays well in 2024 and the Giants make the playoffs again?
We will have to see how this transpires.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:37:43 AMIn the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.
Consider:
1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option
2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)
3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy
4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets. He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)
Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried. He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-4 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium. He earned himself a solid contract.
From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again. I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park. I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.
Daniel has had 'flashes of brilliance' as I mentioned in another post. It's the consistency that can be argued. Is the consistency more an issue of him or the lack of support system. When you look at the advance metrics of OL and WR performance it would tend to suggest the latter more than the former.
This year could mercifully and finally be the year they have removed the additional variables where it will simply come down to him and only him being what stands between an above average or better offense or another crap-tas-ter-ific year despite better pieces around him.
Being an optimist, I believe he rebounds. Giants missing out on Drake may have turned to be a blessing in disguise. Because with Drake it would have taken longer to rebuild around him due to the draft capital we would have had to give up (and no Nabers).
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 10:12:24 AMThe Giants had the worst offensive line in the league last year
Jones was pressured more frequently and quickly than any QB
Jones had no receiving threat of note
I am not sure what you define as excuses, but for those of us who try to be fair in our evaluations (we don't use charged language like "excuses"), Jones was put in a terrible situation for a QB to do well. It's not to suggest that Jones doesn't need to step up his game, but I am not sure any QB could have done well in DJ's situation last year.
All true except the fact (not one, but TWO) backup QBs moved the ball better AND actually won some games and came awfully close to doing more than that with other games they lost by a mere play here or there. Yes I know Thomas was there but as everyone says, one man doesn't make a team. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention our backups were probably sacked as much (or more) than Jones was.
I'm rooting hard for him this year, he's our guy. Hope he blossoms into a star. But I cannot just prop him up anymore. Especially when I saw with my own eyes how much better Tyrod and Devito moved the ball downfield. Way better than Jones did.
Has any fanbase had as long of a run of middling too-calm QBs to argue about? I mean, we've been at this for 2 decades now. :yes:
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 12:23:10 PMAll true except the fact (not one, but TWO) backup QBs moved the ball better AND actually won some games and came awfully close to doing more than that with other games they lost by a mere play here or there.
I have heard this claim come up, but frankly it's juts not accurate as this chart clearly shows.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGP1umjWcAA6pBS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
How quickly the pressure arrives matters a great deal and clearly the other two QBs had it significantly better than Jones
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 30, 2024, 12:32:36 PMHas any fanbase had as long of a run of middling too-calm QBs to argue about? I mean, we've been at this for 2 decades now. :yes:
Have to admit the discussions about Jones do have a striking similarity to the ones about Eli
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:32:40 PMI have heard this claim come up, but frankly it's juts not accurate as this chart clearly shows.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGP1umjWcAA6pBS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
How quickly the pressure arrives matters a great deal and clearly the other two QBs had it significantly better than Jones
So apparently according to that chart, the 2 backups were able to make quicker reads and get rid of the ball - and as a result, they were able to move the ball downfield with better frequency.
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 12:38:21 PMSo apparently according to that chart, the 2 backups were able to make quicker reads and get rid of the ball - and as a result, they were able to move the ball downfield with better frequency.
That is NOT what the chart says. The chart shows Jones faced more and quicker pressure than the other QBs.
Even on the low end if DJ is Jared Goff, Alex Smith, Kirk Cousins etc. even these guys were pretty successful when they had a functioning well coached OL and WRs. I don't think Daniel unless he is damaged goods at this point is a QB who just 'stinks'. I think his floor is a QB that can be effective if protected well and has quality targets to throw to. Maybe his floor is he doesn't elevate the players around him but with a Nabers and a better coached offensive line I think he can be productive.
Ceiling is us fans get to see what we saw vs. numerous team likes Vikes, Colts, Tampa (rookie year), Washington multiple times happen on a frequent more consistent basis. Those weren't just 'meh' performances but there were many high end QB plays in those games. He does have talent.
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 30, 2024, 12:42:08 PMEven on the low end if DJ is Jared Goff, Alex Smith, Kirk Cousins etc. even these guys were pretty successful when they had a functioning well coached OL and WRs. I don't think Daniel unless he is damaged goods at this point is a QB who just 'stinks'. I think his floor is a QB that can be effective if protected well and has quality targets to throw to. Maybe his floor is he doesn't elevate the players around him but with a Nabers and a better coached offensive line I think he can be productive.
Ceiling is us fans get to see what we saw vs. numerous team likes Vikes, Colts, Tampa (rookie year), Washington multiple times happen on a frequent more consistent basis. Those weren't just 'meh' performances but there were many high end QB plays in those games. He does have talent.
Is what I've highlighted that different from most QBs in the NFL? I tend to think not... which then merits in favor of moving on from him with a palatable short-term cap hit, because you can get similar (if not greater) production at a fraction of the cost.
I hope you're right but I cannot get past the fact we had 2 different QBs play much much better than our 40 million dollar man did. This is very problematic.
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 12:23:10 PMAll true except the fact (not one, but TWO) backup QBs moved the ball better AND actually won some games and came awfully close to doing more than that with other games they lost by a mere play here or there. Yes I know Thomas was there but as everyone says, one man doesn't make a team. And I would be remiss if I didn't mention our backups were probably sacked as much (or more) than Jones was.
I'm rooting hard for him this year, he's our guy. Hope he blossoms into a star. But I cannot just prop him up anymore. Especially when I saw with my own eyes how much better Tyrod and Devito moved the ball downfield. Way better than Jones did.
Hi Trench,
It isn't a totally fair comparison because Daniel faced two top five defenses in his first five games.
And the first four out of five were against playoff teams.
Where Devito and Tyrod faced inferior competition.
Also when Tyrod did play against a top 4 defense in Buffalo, he put up 9 points.
However the proof will be in the pudding this upcoming year as to what transpires.
Please be well and good hearing from you
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:32:40 PMI have heard this claim come up, but frankly it's juts not accurate as this chart clearly shows.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGP1umjWcAA6pBS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
How quickly the pressure arrives matters a great deal and clearly the other two QBs had it significantly better than Jones
Mighty,
What an excellent chart, thanks for sharing
Quote from: sxdxca38 on April 30, 2024, 01:07:02 PMHi Trench,
It isn't a totally fair comparison because Daniel faced two top five defenses in his first five games.
And the first four out of five were against playoff teams.
Where Devito and Tyrod faced inferior competition.
Also when Tyrod did play against a top 4 defense in Buffalo, he put up 9 points.
However the proof will be in the pudding this upcoming year as to what transpires.
Please be well and good hearing from you
This is a good debate.
I would argue our backups played against some very strong teams and some who also made the playoffs.Stats do lie. It ain't everything. I'm sure someone adept at stats could find statistics that support my argument in some way.
Does anyone dispute the fact they BOTH moved the ball better than the $40 million QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:32:40 PMI have heard this claim come up, but frankly it's juts not accurate as this chart clearly shows.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGP1umjWcAA6pBS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
How quickly the pressure arrives matters a great deal and clearly the other two QBs had it significantly better than Jones
Another example of how stats are the fact-checkers of the "eye test".
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 12:45:05 PMIs what I've highlighted that different from most QBs in the NFL? I tend to think not... which then merits in favor of moving on from him with a palatable short-term cap hit, because you can get similar (if not greater) production at a fraction of the cost.
But what he has had to deal with has been far worse than most QBs in the NFL. So that argument is inapt.
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 01:15:56 PMThis is a good debate.
I would argue our backups played against some very strong teams and some who also made the playoffs.Stats do lie. It ain't everything. I'm sure someone adept at stats could find statistics that support my argument in some way.
Does anyone dispute the fact they BOTH moved the ball better than the $40 million QB?
Yes, 3 people just did by providing context. But you have your mind made up and that's that. And you keep giving the game away, like when you didn't know that the back-ups had Thomas when DJ didn't and just now when you completely misinterpreted the chart MG posted.
It's so comical to me that people are so bent on loving a pedestrian qb.
Jones produces the same as mills and mills gets replaced by Stroud.
Howell produces more than Jones in his first year and gets replaced immediately by jayden daniels.
But sure blame every one else for Jones not throwing beyond 10 yards..
The nfl is based on explosive plays of which Daniel jones cannot provide period. Even in his best yeat he refused to target downfield, and that isn't going to change.
So an oftinjured qb that refuses to throw downfield and now can't run..
But sure maybe just maybe he'll be the qb he's never ever been in year 6.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:32:40 PMI have heard this claim come up, but frankly it's juts not accurate as this chart clearly shows.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GGP1umjWcAA6pBS?format=jpg&name=4096x4096)
How quickly the pressure arrives matters a great deal and clearly the other two QBs had it significantly better than Jones
Context, context context. Time to pressure is an extremely good stat to understand just how little time he actually had to throw. Over those 1st five games I'd be hard pressed just by the eyeball test in remembering any Giant QB that was barraged as quickly and consistently as he was in the last 40 something years.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 30, 2024, 01:48:10 PMYes, 3 people just did by providing context. But you have your mind made up and that's that. And you keep giving the game away, like when you didn't know that the back-ups had Thomas when DJ didn't and just now when you completely misinterpreted the chart MG posted.
Ok since you feel the need to be aggressive, I simply read Mighty chart very differently is all. You all have your mind made up and continue to push false narratives and that's ok. Others feel opposite and that's ok too. Not sure what you mean by "keep giving the game away??"....
If the argument that our 2 backups outplayed Jones simply because Andrew Thomas was not available for Jones then I really don't know what to tell you. What I do know is we played much better with the backups (than with Jones). That is a fact.
If your argument is one person (Thomas) really makes that much of a difference, I would ask you why then you won't hold Jones as an individual to the same standard?
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 02:02:17 PMOk since you feel the need to be aggressive, I simply read Mighty chart very differently is all. You all have your mind made up and continue to push false narratives and that's ok. Others feel opposite and that's ok too. Not sure what you mean by "keep giving the game away??"....
If the argument that our 2 backups outplayed Jones simply because Andrew Thomas was not available for Jones then I really don't know what to tell you. What I do know is we played much better with the backups (than with Jones). That is a fact.
If your argument is one person (Thomas) really makes that much of a difference, I would ask you why then you won't hold Jones as an individual to the same standard?
Trench,
In all fairness, there is only one way to read the chart. Factually speaking, even though Jones, Taylor, and DeVito played for the same team, the chart clearly shows (there is no room for interpretation) that the three of them faced very different situations. So, while it's technically not wrong to suggest that two backups played better than Jones, it's not accurately describing the situation. Two backups played better in much better conditions, which would be a far more appropriate way to say that.
I am not trying to dissuade you from believing that Jones is a poor quarterback, but I do think we should all try to be fair and accurate in how we portray the facts of the situation.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 02:09:06 PMTrench,
In all fairness, there is only one way to read the chart. Factually speaking, even though Jones, Taylor, and DeVito played for the same team, the chart clearly shows (there is no room for interpretation) that the three of them faced very different situations. So, while it's technically not wrong to suggest that two backups played better than Jones, it's not accurately describing the situation. Two backups played better in much better conditions, which would be a far more appropriate way to say that.
I am not trying to dissuade you from believing that Jones is a poor quarterback, but I do think we should all try to be fair and accurate in how we portray the facts of the situation.
I'm being very fair. I simply do not use stats as my barometer and that's my right to do so. If I use stats for my evaluations, then garbage time points and yards in low leverage situations would play too much into my decisions on who is better than who. Instead, I choose to gauge my perception on what I see, the tempo, making plays under duress and in the clutch. And lastly - who wins. It has served me pretty well thus far as a sports fan.
I saw us play better with backups. That is a fact.
To be clear, I don't perceive Jones as a poor QB. I think he's pretty good. I just don't think he's franchise level. But if I'm proven wrong this year you have my word, I'll be the first to own it guys.
Quote from: TONKA56 on April 30, 2024, 11:15:09 AMBased on his class and work ethic, Jones is an easy guy to root for, but I have a hard time picturing him at quarterback after 2026 for a myriad of reasons.
I don't see him beyond the designed out year after 2024
Any growth will be leveraged into using his trade value to move on.
My hunch is Jones never sees his 2025 and 2026 contract years in a Giants Uniform
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 10:12:24 AMThe Giants had the worst offensive line in the league last year
Jones was pressured more frequently and quickly than any QB
Jones had no receiving threat of note
I am not sure what you define as excuses, but for those of us who try to be fair in our evaluations (we don't use charged language like "excuses"), Jones was put in a terrible situation for a QB to do well. It's not to suggest that Jones doesn't need to step up his game, but I am not sure any QB could have done well in DJ's situation last year.
All the arguments against this exist on this forum. I won't reiterate them. If you wish to ignore them for one-uppmanship - so be it.
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 30, 2024, 10:50:31 AMHere is my daily prayer: "Dear Lord, please let our message board be something other than more discussions about Daniel Jones that have been discussed with the exact same points more than ten thousand times ad nauseam, by naysayers who are too obsessed with the subject to let it go and move on and cheer our glorious team...the horse is not only dead, but it has been beaten into dust and even the dust no longer exists as it has blown away with the wind. Please don't let it keep coming back...Amen"
(https://i.postimg.cc/BbF7RWK2/80f02fb81f6c2990343f2f021b6bfe48.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Ric
As long as the same people keep pushing their constant agenda, whether pro or anti, this will dominate. We know who these are and it is a constant thing just to try to score points.
I will join you in that prayer.
With all due respect to the OP and everyone else who has posted in this thread, this is officially a boring topic now.
This thread has been played out for years now (with different precise thread titles), and it's still the same folks on both sides making their same points. Clearly those who think Jones is this really good, franchise QB who has been a victim of circumstance are not going to change their minds about that, and those who think he is a middling talent aren't going to either.
We can keep these endless, circular discussions going on all summer if that's really what people want, have things get heated for no reason, and still not persuade anyone, or we can just agree to let him play this year, see what happens, and then discuss his performance on the field.
If the above is not possible or not wanted, then I would humbly suggest we go back to a central "Jones Thread" for all Jones content, rather than going back and forth in 10 different threads concurrently until September (and likely beyond).
We're going into year six now. It's just not that interesting of a topic anymore. I also don't think it's a very controversial one anymore outside of this forum and a small contingent of Giants fans.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 30, 2024, 06:43:28 PMWith all due respect to the OP and everyone else who has posted in this thread, this is officially a boring topic now.
This thread has been played out for years now (with different precise thread titles), and it's still the same folks on both sides making their same points. Clearly those who think Jones is this really good, franchise QB who has been a victim of circumstance are not going to change their minds about that, and those who think he is a middling talent aren't going to either.
We can keep these endless, circular discussions going on all summer if that's really what people want, have things get heated for no reason, and still not persuade anyone, or we can just agree to let him play this year, see what happens, and then discuss his performance on the field.
If the above is not possible or not wanted, then I would humbly suggest we go back to a central "Jones Thread" for all Jones content, rather than going back and forth in 10 different threads concurrently until September (and likely beyond).
We're going into year six now. It's just not that interesting of a topic anymore. I also don't think it's a very controversial one anymore outside of this forum and a small contingent of Giants fans.
Daniel Jones- 24
#GoNabers
#GoSingletary
#GoFaOline
#GoHypesterz
Imagine the possibilities!
Is what it is.
The team knows what plays were called.
They know if he can read a defense.
6 Qbs other teams thought worthy of a first round were drafted after the Giants picked.
It was reported we tried to trade for Maye.
Did we?
Everyone knew NE needed a QB and would need to be blown away, we didn't blow them away.(think about it)
Draft was great and we get to watch some exciting player.
BTW I wanted McCarthy at 6, I don't trust Jones to stay healthy and believe JJ will be the best QB drafted this year.
Is what it is.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:37:43 AMIn the 2022 offseason, most considered Daniel Jones a dead man walking.
Consider:
1) The Giants passed on exercising DJ's 5th-year option
2) The Giants signed Tyrod Taylor who many fans claimed was as good or better than Jones (he did have a Pro Bowl to his resume)
3) Jones had injury issues and needed to prove he could stay healthy
4) Worst of all, Jones was going to have to prove himself behind a mediocre, at best, O-line with no significant receiving targets. He would get a bit of a tangential boost from Barkley (who already lost something after his major knee injury)
Everyone was writing Daniel Jones off, there was much talk about the QBs in the draft. Only Daniel Jones decided he wasn't ready to be dead and buried. He dragged his under-talented team to the playoffs and beat the 13-4 Vikings in the hostile Minnesota stadium. He earned himself a solid contract.
From Daniel's perspective, this is just deja vue all over again. I am not suggesting that Jones will stay healthy and knock it out of the park. I am just suggesting we shouldn't be shocked if Jones plays like a franchise QB and takes the team to the playoffs again while at least staying healthy enough.
Jones is a good player. just not good enough at the QB position. he has a lot to prove to everybody this season.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 30, 2024, 06:43:28 PMClearly those who think Jones is this really good, franchise QB who has been a victim of circumstance are not going to change their minds about that, and those who think he is a middling talent aren't going to either.
This is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues. Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet. They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022. On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues. Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet. They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022. On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.
I think this is fair. I wanted McCarthy at 6. I feel Jones is an injury risk, yet, I have not seen the actual medicals and have not been present for his recovery. From an above orbit, risk management standpoint, having Jones replacement on hand seemed valid. That said, in this offense in particular, Jones can succeed. He can throw short passes to playmakers. The best Jones has had is crappy playmakers in a system designed to have them. Daboll/Kafka system doesn't work without YAC. I want to see the kid with an average OL and some playmakers. I think his body ends up betraying him. If Jones is healthy he will look good in this system I suspect with these playmakers.
Nabers is a beast, a true number 1 changes everything.
Quote from: Thegratefulhead on April 30, 2024, 10:01:19 PMI think this is fair. I wanted McCarthy at 6. I feel Jones is an injury risk, yet, I have not seen the actual medicals and have not been present for his recovery. From an above orbit, risk management standpoint, having Jones replacement on hand seemed valid. That said, in this offense in particular, Jones can succeed. He can throw short passes to playmakers. The best Jones has had is crappy playmakers in a system designed to have them. Daboll/Kafka system doesn't work without YAC. I want to see the kid with an average OL and some playmakers. I think his body ends up betraying him. If Jones is healthy he will look good in this system I suspect with these playmakers.
Nabers is a beast, a true number 1 changes everything.
Jones threw down the field in Shurmur's offense and in Duke. His downfield passing according to advanced metrics was really good.
I would suspect with a Bracillo coached OL the guy who took average lines with NE and an injury riddled Raiders line last year to top 10-12 finishes gets these guys playing sound cohesively and much more technically sound as unit.
I heard an football guy once say you build your passing game like a basketball team. It's not a perfect comparison obviously but I love the analogy. Theo Johnson is your Center, Hodgins is your Power forward, Hyatt/Slayton are your 'undersized' speedy small forwards, Nabers is your electric do-it-all shooting guard, and Wan'Dale is your shifty jitterbug Point guard. A lot of gameplans can be formulated when you have so many receiving options with varied size and strengths to their games.
Jones has never had a WR corps like this not even close. In fact he has never had a receiving threat that was pro bowl caliber like ever. The walking corpses of Golden Dome Tate, Kenny 'on a Holiday' Golladay, Darren 'Hit A' Wall-er or Kyle the Red-nosed Reindeer doesn't count.
In theory, this should be a drastically better receiving group and a drastically better offensive line , if nothing because of coaching alone. No rookies starting on this line either.
Again, I present all this not because I guarantee Jones balls-out but quite simply now there is finally a reasonable opportunity in place that he could.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues. Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet. They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022. On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.
This is an INCORRECT assessment of those who are questioning Daniel Jones. Speaking for myself, it was not said he is "terrible, or middling and no possibility of having success!"....actually those who are negative on Jones have stated QUITE the opposite!....we are still rooting for the guy and feel he is a good QB but not a franchise QB. Posts like that make me sincerely give pause.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 09:41:40 PMThis is a very inaccurate framing of the sides and the issues. Based on this very thread, here is a proper description of the "sides."- On the one hand, you have people who are saying not to write Jones off just yet. They are not saying he will, but they are not ruling out the possibility that he will be successful again like he was in 2022. On the other side, you have people who are so certain of their assessments that Jones is a terrible or "middling" QB that they insist there is no possibility Jones can have another successful season, despite the, at least on paper, improvement of his support.
What a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.
I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.
Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 01, 2024, 12:22:29 AMWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.
I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.
Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.
I agree. This was a disrespectful post Mighty.
This topic/thread was put up as click bait. Nothing more. And it succeeded in that.
What does Daniel Jones need to show you this year to prove that he's "the guy?"
Let's say he miraculously stays healthy all year, throws for 4000 yards, 35 touchdowns to 15 ints...do you trust that he's "arrived" and it's the new normal? I'm not sure I would. The eye test matters. I need to see things in his mechanics and how he responds to situations that raw metrics cannot capture.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on May 01, 2024, 12:22:29 AMWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.
I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality. To wit, I literally noted I could see Jones repeating or improving somewhat on 2022, but you ignored what I actually stated in responding to me in favor of what you find easier to attack.
Divergence of opinions is fine, and indeed healthy. Willfully misstating another's opinion because you disagree with it is dishonest and unworthy of recognition.
I'm just going to say one thing about this board that has always frustrated me. Nuance is usually missed or ignored when a forumite's post can be swept up in the current of a major running narrative.
Inevitably the Jones conversation breaks down to a debate about some abilities being coachable and others being innate. While I think there is some merit to this, it is often over-exagerated and becomes a crutch.
@H-Town G-Fan That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character. I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply. Only this old dog is learning new tricks. I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it. So first I went back to read what you wrote:
QuoteI don't consider Jones magically playing like an MVP-caliber candidate to be realistic. It's possible he replicates 2022--maybe even marginally exceeds it
I have a few thoughts on your comments:
1) I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will not prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.
2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.
Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me. As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close. In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.
QuoteWhat a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.
I would say this is beneath you, but putting those who disagree with you into an illogical, inaccurate, and indeed ridiculous box to make your own opinions seem correct by extension is not a new tactic. And even this very thread shows how your self-statedly "proper" assessment is out of line with reality.
I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps
@Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it. ;)
Quote from: TONKA56 on May 01, 2024, 06:20:37 AMWhat does Daniel Jones need to show you this year to prove that he's "the guy?"
Let's say he miraculously stays healthy all year, throws for 4000 yards, 35 touchdowns to 15 ints...do you trust that he's "arrived" and it's the new normal? I'm not sure I would. The eye test matters. I need to see things in his mechanics and how he responds to situations that raw metrics cannot capture.
I agree; I think setting statistical goals to decide his fate would be less than ideal. DJ's performance will need to be properly evaluated in context.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan
That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character. I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply. Only this old dog is learning new tricks. I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it. So first I went back to read what you wrote:
I have a few thoughts on your comments:
1) I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.
2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.
Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me. As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close. In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.
What a wildly disingenuous and self-serving statement.
I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it. ;)
Rich,
If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it.
Quote from: kingm56 on May 01, 2024, 07:50:00 AMRich,
If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it.
Matt,
MVP is reserved for one or two QBs. You know that. That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten. @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:57:30 AMMatt,
MVP is reserved for one or two QBs. You know that. That is not remotely the same as potentially being in the top ten. @tonka was right, once DJ enters the conversation, all naunce is lost.
Rich,
When you engage in obfuscation, it's more telling than just answering the question. H explicitly used the term MVP-caliber; the key work is CALIBER. Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, etc, etc have never won MVP awards. Yet, as top 10/5 QBs, they are absolutely considered MVP-caliber QBs and have received MVP votes/consideration. More than one or two QBs earn MVP votes every year; just like more than one or two player earns Heisman votes. I can name at least 8 QBs right now who have earned MVP votes and thus are considered MVP-caliber...
I'm shocked I have to define the word caliber to you....
Quote from: kingm56 on May 01, 2024, 08:09:42 AMRich,
When you engage in obfuscation, it's more telling than just answering the question. H explicitly used the term MVP-caliber; the key work is CALIBER. Joe Burrow, Josh Allen, Jared Goff, Brock Purdy, etc, etc have never won MVP awards. Yet, as top 10/5 QBs, they are absolutely considered MVP-caliber QBs and have received MVP votes/consideration. More than one or two QBs earn MVP votes every year; just like more than one or two player earns Heisman votes. I can name at least 8 QBs right now who have earned MVP votes and thus are considered MVP-caliber...
I'm shocked I have to define the word caliber to you....
Matt,
Look, I have addressed the slanderous attack on my character. No amount of spin is going to dispute what I said. I am done, moving on. I don't want threads about Daniel Jones to be dragged down into the gutter. I hope you and your other critics of Jones share that desire or will at least respect my wishes. We should be able to talk about our team's QB in a respectful manner and not take potshots or, encourage those potshots by liking them.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan
That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character. I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply. Only this old dog is learning new tricks.
It was a criticism of a
comment you made broadly and incorrectly categorizing those who have a differing opinion from yours. I can't stop you from considering that your character. But we've had a similar conversation before--years ago--and I don't know that we've made progress on this topic since then.
QuoteI took some time to consider what you said and why you said it. So first I went back to read what you wrote:
I have a few thoughts on your comments:
1) I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.
2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.
Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me. As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close. In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.
[/i]
I guess this part--quoting me back tomyself in an attempted "gotcha!"--is supposed to be a reciprocal attack on my "character." But my ego is not so entwined with my comments on a digital football message board that I take it as such. If the implication is that I've acted hypocritically, I am certainly guilty of that at times. But even with fresh eyes of the morning, I don't see it here. If you do... well that's fine.
Because you mentioned it multiple times now, I guess I should clarify (though my comments were Waterford-clear): you did not suggest that Jones would have a season like an MVP candidate. But I also never said you did. A holistic reading of the lone MVP comment you've focused in on would realize that it comes
immediately after I stated that I don't see Jones being the long-term solution for the Giants at QB. Read together, along with the following comment that he could improve marginally on 2022, is a pretty simple story encapsulating my opinion.
QuoteI don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it. ;)
I fear that people having different opinions than you makes you feel "more right." For me, I usually turn to introspection or critical thinking about my position (like I've show above).
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 30, 2024, 10:27:11 PMJones threw down the field in Shurmur's offense and in Duke. His downfield passing according to advanced metrics was really good.
I would suspect with a Bracillo coached OL the guy who took average lines with NE and an injury riddled Raiders line last year to top 10-12 finishes gets these guys playing sound cohesively and much more technically sound as unit.
I heard an football guy once say you build your passing game like a basketball team. It's not a perfect comparison obviously but I love the analogy. Theo Johnson is your Center, Hodgins is your Power forward, Hyatt/Slayton are your 'undersized' speedy small forwards, Nabers is your electric do-it-all shooting guard, and Wan'Dale is your shifty jitterbug Point guard. A lot of gameplans can be formulated when you have so many receiving options with varied size and strengths to their games.
Jones has never had a WR corps like this not even close. In fact he has never had a receiving threat that was pro bowl caliber like ever. The walking corpses of Golden Dome Tate, Kenny 'on a Holiday' Golladay, Darren 'Hit A' Wall-er or Kyle the Red-nosed Reindeer doesn't count.
In theory, this should be a drastically better receiving group and a drastically better offensive line , if nothing because of coaching alone. No rookies starting on this line either.
Again, I present all this not because I guarantee Jones balls-out but quite simply now there is finally a reasonable opportunity in place that he could.
Just want to say that I completely agree with the notion that you are an excellent addition to our little band. Love the basketball analogy. And the nicknames for our past and present failurs.s. Well done.
I will say one thing I would like to see from Jones this season. I want to see his yards per attempt exceed 7.0 this season. YPA is a pretty good measure of how a QB is driving the ball downfield, and ideally, you like to see that number be higher than 7. I recently saw a statistic that Jones has never exceeded that mark in his college or pro career (he came close with a 6.8). Nabers is DJ's first true YAC generator (although Robinson can also be pretty good at that). With hopefully better protection and with a couple of receivers who can add to DJ's passing yardage, hopefully, he can finally exceed that 7.0 mark
Quote from: kingm56 on May 01, 2024, 07:50:00 AMRich,
If you're being honest, you will acknowledge several fans predicted DJ was ascending to become a top 10/5 QB; last year, a few even predicted the DJ-led offense was on the verge of 'lethality.' Any QB who ascends into the top 10/5, or leads a lethal offense, is by definition, an MVP caliber QB. I believe that's what H-Town was referring to when he made his statement; at least, that's how I interpreted it.
And if you are being honest you will admit that there are posters who have written Jones off in no uncertain terms. As an example I present
@Jclayton92 as the poster boy of this group. He may even be right, but I'm pretty sure he would agree that this is his position. OTOH, I think you'd be hard-pressed to name any poster who is as sold out on Jones definitely emerging as a franchise QB - it is couched more as a possibility, generally on the hope that the OL massively improves. But no one has said he will rise to a top 5/10 QB with anything like the certitude of the detractors.
Still don't care much about the stats. I am interested in wins, don't care what those wins look like. Special teams driven would be fine. Win more than you lose. Yay me.
Look at ELi, Tua and Allen. The year before they got the receiver, the year after. I believe Nabers is a better prospect than Diggs, Waddle or OBJ were. I think he is actually a better fit for the system. He is like an ELITE RB with the ball in his hands.
I think the trade up for Maye was always diversion. NE needed QB, therefore needed to be blown away. We absolutely knew that and CHOSE not to blow them away. Again, did we REALLY try to trade up or were we trying to get Minnesota to take a QB ahead of us?
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 11:53:47 PMThis is an INCORRECT assessment of those who are questioning Daniel Jones. Speaking for myself, it was not said he is "terrible, or middling and no possibility of having success!"....actually those who are negative on Jones have stated QUITE the opposite!....we are still rooting for the guy and feel he is a good QB but not a franchise QB. Posts like that make me sincerely give pause.
Hi Trench,
We have had some good conversations in the past, and I don't think you have ever said he was terrible. In fact I think you have stated that you do hope he succeeds and you would root for him if he does and want to be proven wrong.
However, some critics against Daniel Jones have said he was terrible.
Within the last couple of days this comment was stated about DJ "
If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do."
And this one from a few weeks ago "Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball
so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't.So, as you can see some of the critics of DJ have expressed that he stinks or is terrible.
Once again not naming you, but there have been more than a few that have expressed this.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 01, 2024, 10:29:57 AMAnd if you are being honest you will admit that there are posters who have written Jones off in no uncertain terms. As an example I present @Jclayton92 as the poster boy of this group. He may even be right, but I'm pretty sure he would agree that this is his position. OTOH, I think you'd be hard-pressed to name any poster who is as sold out on Jones definitely emerging as a franchise QB - it is couched more as a possibility, generally on the hope that the OL massively improves. But no one has said he will rise to a top 5/10 QB with anything like the certitude of the detractors.
I really hate to jump in on this debate and add a kick to a dead horse. I stand up and admit I have a lot of faith in DJ and believe he can be a great QB...so if you're looking for a believer...here I am!
A meaningless term derived from pundits, beat-writers, and fans alike is the oft-used and misused term, "franchise QB". In political discussions concerning the economy, it is the equivalent of the debaters on one side of the issue to wear "blinkers" (the eye coverings with a peephole that cover a horse's eyes so he won't be spooked - google it if you are unfamiliar with them) and have a "Zero-Sum" mentality (i.e., belief that there is a hard-line, limited amount of money in the world or country, for all to fight over, blah, blah, blah...because it is static instead of variable and growing...which makes no sense because of population growth, etc. In the real world, money is more a concept than actual currency, but I digress). Such is the problem with fans who believe a team is a one-man show, and get that one man, and nothing else matters
There is such a thing as a "dynasty" (Oakland A's, Cincy Reds, Yanks, Celtics, Steelers, Patriots, and lately the Chiefs), but for all those who believe those dynasties happened because of a single player on a team of many players, is stuck in the "zero sum" mentality. To them, Tom Brady would have won 7 Super Bowls whether or not his coaches and players on the Patriots were even there. To them, Brady would have won 7 SBs with the Browns, or the Commanders, the Cardinals, the Chargers, etc., etc. That's because the ONLY thing that matters is a QB
So...a "franchise QB" is actually a "good QB" on a great team (typically a "dynasty") with great management, great coaches, great players all around, and great role players
Like it or not, DJ has never played behind an adequate NFL offensive line. He has never had above average receivers. He has never had continuity in head coaches, offensive coordinators, or QB coaches. The scheme he was supposed to learn, changed by the time he learned it...so he has had to start over, again and again
Impatient fans think there is an instant fix to a struggling team...usually a "franchise QB". To call it short-sighted would be a conciliatory use of the word
Bottom line: please get behind the team and exercise a little patience as this team is being built one piece at a time under assumingly good leadership. It can happen. It happened with the Knicks recently once they abandoned trying to build a team by overpaying aging vets. Shoen is NEVER going to make a decision on the QB because he trusts fans' opinions (or would even waste his time paying attention to it). And no amount of arguing is ever going to change a fan's opinion among other fans. So why do we go through this never-ending debate that's been going on for years now...on a daily basis. Your opinion nor my opinion changes nothing and never will...and the front office doesn't care that you even have an opinion
]
I am a diehard NY Giants fan and I root for the team including DJ as much as anyone including defending him on multiple occasions and hoping he plays well.
The problem though is that we've been in this rinse and repeat cycle for half a decade now and nothing has changed.
Have we really made much progress?
Does this team even have an identity?
I think most teams go as far as their Qb takes them, and the team forms around the Qb as they are typically the key to their success. At this point I have seen nothing in 5 years to say that Jones can make others around him better, if anything players play down to his level as opposed to blossoming. Slayton, Wandale, and Hyatt would be extremely exciting pieces to another team that are floundering on this team.
Under ideal or perfect circumstances Jones can be a top 15 Qb but I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect situation in the NFL. In today's game you either have a GUY or you don't and currently based on previous seasons we don't have that guy on the roster.
Would it make my NY Giants Fandom easier if Jones was the guy, absolutely, would I love for him to throw 4500 yards 35 tds and 10 ints and blow us away, you bet. I just don't think that is realistic currently and that's why I think we should move forward to find a guy that can do those things for us.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 01, 2024, 11:07:13 AMHi Trench,
We have had some good conversations in the past, and I don't think you have ever said he was terrible. In fact I think you have stated that you do hope he succeeds and you would root for him if he does and want to be proven wrong.
However, some critics against Daniel Jones have said he was terrible.
Within the last couple of days this comment was stated about DJ "If Jones stinks as he is very likely to do."
And this one from a few weeks ago "Well what do you want me to call them? Never in all my life do I remember a fanbase of any NY sports franchise; Football, baseball; hockey ; and Basketball so devoted to a player who so obviously just stinks! Can you name one? ... I can't.
So, as you can see some of the critics of DJ have expressed that he stinks or is terrible.
Once again not naming you, but there have been more than a few that have expressed this.
Thank you SXD
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 07:33:36 AM@H-Town G-Fan
That's quite a damning and harsh attack on my character. I will confess it angered me, and I was ready to post my usual angry reply. Only this old dog is learning new tricks. I took some time to consider what you said and why you said it. So first I went back to read what you wrote:
I have a few thoughts on your comments:
1) I believe that everyone here agrees that Jones' "marginal" or "somewhat" improvement will not prevent him from continuing to be the dead man walking.
2) I asked you for clarification on that comment, but you declined.
Still, it was the part in bold that really struck me. As far as I can tell and remember, no one suggested that Jones would have an "MVP-caliber season", not even close. In fact that seems so far removed from what people were saying, that it reminded me of something I read recently.
I don't dismiss the possibility I could have missed that quote; perhaps @Trench or one of the other people who liked your post could help you find it. ;)
Why do I have to be dragged into your response just because I "liked" something doesn't mean every word is taken to heart as gospel.
Not sure about anyone else, but personally, when I "like" something it merely means I agree with a much of the construct but not always everything.