If he is cut or retires, the Giants would free up $6,707,500 in cap space. That money could be used to add a veteran or two or even just be rolled over to the next season.
In light of drafting Theo Johnson, is there any reason that the Giants should allow Waller more time to decide if he wants to continue to play football?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:39:05 PMIf he is cut or retires, the Giants would free up $6,707,500 in cap space. That money could be used to add a veteran or two or even just be rolled over to the next season.
In light of drafting Theo Johnson, is there any reason that the Giants should allow Waller more time to decide if he wants to continue to play football?
It is an interesting proposition, and I guess time will tell
No
Why the rush? Games don't start until September.
There is a human element in this game called football. If Schoen is good with letting Waller figure out his future, I'm fine. It ain't costing me anything to let him figure out what he wants to do.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 12:39:05 PMIf he is cut or retires, the Giants would free up $6,707,500 in cap space. That money could be used to add a veteran or two or even just be rolled over to the next season.
In light of drafting Theo Johnson, is there any reason that the Giants should allow Waller more time to decide if he wants to continue to play football?
I've been ready for them to cut him ever since his Hamlet-esque posture emerged, so my answer is obvious.
Quote from: T200 on April 30, 2024, 01:28:31 PMWhy the rush? Games don't start until September.
There is a human element in this game called football. If Schoen is good with letting Waller figure out his future, I'm fine. It ain't costing me anything to let him figure out what he wants to do.
Starting yesterday at 4 pm, veteran signings no longer impact the comp pick formula. The Giants seem to be in line for a possible 4th round comp pick. So if the Giants want to use that money to sign a veteran or two (before another team does)...
I also said Yes when this whole "will he, Won't he" drama started.
He's not that big of a cog in the Giants wheel in my opinion. Definitely a replaceable part.
Waller's gutless, uninspired brand of football is not what the team needs.
Paying 14 mill for what little he brings to the table I think is a huge waste.
I suspect they will cut him post June 1 so only 1.9 mill will hit this year and 5.9 next year.
It was a nice try but a swing and miss
He's the best tight end on the roster and it isn't close. If we're looking to free up money who would it be for, and would they do more to help us win next year than Walker if he plays? Or are you thinking about next years draft picks and are hoping we start ejecting dead "weight" in preparation for next year.
We have the summer to see if he has his head in the game after his unfortunate divorce. If he's healthy and wants to still play, we'd be fools to cut him. I see him as a mentor to Theo if he stays
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 30, 2024, 03:20:54 PMWe have the summer to see if he has his head in the game after his unfortunate divorce. If he's healthy and wants to still play, we'd be fools to cut him. I see him as a mentor to Theo if he stays
Excellent point.
I'd also add we have Bellinger who should have a bounce back year
The reason to do it is because we think we can use the available cap from a post 1 June designation more productively. Personally I think that is highly likely to be true.
The reason not to do it is that as a responsible employer you need to be cogniscent of the mental and emotional well being of your employee who has a history of depression and is already going through significant personal upheaval.
I suspect this more than any real optimism on any future contribution he might make is why we have been patient and will continue to be so. Better to let him reach his own decision with whatever support he needs.
Waller was top-10 in TE YPG. He's still an effective weapon, despite arguments that the Giants have no receivers. If he needs more time to decide (within reason), let him have it.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 03:28:26 PMWaller was top-10 in TE YPG. He's still an effective weapon, despite arguments that the Giants have no receivers. If he needs more time to decide (within reason), let him have it.
How much of a difference do you think Waller's 46 yards per game made?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:35:28 PMHow much of a difference do you think Waller's 46 yards per game made?
Agreed.
Stats don't always show the true story.
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 03:43:41 PMAgreed.
Stats don't always show the true story.
It really depends on how stats are used. If used properly, they can be quite helpful in learning things and double-checking things.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:45:45 PMIt really depends on how stats are used. If used properly, they can be quite helpful in learning things and double-checking things.
Perhaps, but perhaps not. Look at Parcells types - coached on the fly with his gut because he knew his players intestinal fortitude and managing pressure situations. Stats can't show that.
Baseball is a great example of stats and analysis beginning to morph too far and what works in regular season usually doesn't play near as big a role in post season.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:35:28 PMHow much of a difference do you think Waller's 46 yards per game made?
A question, but no definitive statement. How helpful.
Waller was the 2nd leading receiver on the Giants in 2023, despite missing time with injuries. He was a top-10 receiving TE on a per-game basis around the league. You regularly lament the lack of offensive weapons for Jones as an excuse for why he can't be expected to perform like a league average QB, yet here you are advocating to cut one of the above-average players on the team. Is it because his pay is inconsistent with his level of production? Gee, if that's an indictment of a player, I wonder who else on the roster it should apply to. And who exactly is going to replace Waller's production? If it was that easy to replace, why did Bellinger not do so when Waller was out?
Quote from: Trench on April 30, 2024, 03:51:34 PMPerhaps, but perhaps not. Look at Parcells types - coached on the fly with his gut because he knew his players intestinal fortitude and managing pressure situations. Stats can't show that.
Baseball is a great example of stats and analysis beginning to morph too far and what works in regular season usually doesn't play near as big a role in post season.
Every NFL team now has an analytics department. Analytics is just a fancy word for using statistics. Even old timers often used stats; the stats were just a bit less refined than today. HOF GM Bill Polian used stats all the time as did the late great Gil Brandt
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 30, 2024, 03:53:11 PMIs it because his pay is inconsistent with his level of production?
He is a player who can't stay healthy (only 12 games last season) and is often not 100% due to injury. He is also a player whose stats and play are declining with age.
QuoteAnd who exactly is going to replace Waller's production?
Bellinger and Theo Johnson
QuoteIf it was that easy to replace, why did Bellinger not do so when Waller was out?
Bellinger seemed to suffer a sophomore slump. Hopeful he rounds back into his rookie form.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:45:45 PMIt really depends on how stats are used. If used properly, they can be quite helpful in learning things and double-checking things.
"If used properly" to me is just a fancy way of saying "cherry picking" to illustrate a point or to back up one's belief. For every stat used to help Jones, we use other stats to dismiss the production of a guy like Waller.
Nothing beats the true test of performance under great pressure and elevating a team. That said, I am torn on bringing back Waller. See the positives but the cap space could help too.
Quote from: madbadger on April 30, 2024, 02:59:27 PMHe's the best tight end on the roster and it isn't close. If we're looking to free up money who would it be for, and would they do more to help us win next year than Walker if he plays? Or are you thinking about next years draft picks and are hoping we start ejecting dead "weight" in preparation for next year.
Take the 12 mill saved on a Post June 1 cut and go get someone that could be more impactful. 14mill for 500 yards and 1 TD isn't worth it
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:56:58 PMHe is a player who can't stay healthy (only 12 games last season) and is often not 100% due to injury. He is also a player whose stats and play are declining with age.
Yet those declining stats and play are still top-10 in the league on a per-game basis amongst TEs. His PFF grade was top-half (with gadget players like Taysom Hill above him skewing that ranking). And the Giants showed no ability to replace that production in his absence. Bellinger couldn't replicate it and I'm not confident a 4th round rookie manages to do so in his first season. So in the best interest of whoever the Giants' QB is in 2024, I'd give Waller time.
Quote from: babywhales on April 30, 2024, 04:03:19 PMTake the 12 mill saved on a Post June 1 cut and go get someone that could be more impactful. 14mill for 500 yards and 1 TD isn't worth it
Who though? There aren't legions of good players just sitting around looking for someone to pick them up, and what sort of production would have been acceptable considering what an absolute train wreck our quarterback situation was last year?
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 30, 2024, 03:56:58 PMHe is a player who can't stay healthy (only 12 games last season) and is often not 100% due to injury. He is also a player whose stats and play are declining with age.
Bellinger and Theo Johnson
Bellinger seemed to suffer a sophomore slump. Hopeful he rounds back into his rookie form.
Jones can't stay healthy either and his production has been horrible yet you're not advocating for him to lose his job, but instead listing reasons why he'll blossom in year 6.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 30, 2024, 04:48:59 PMJones can't stay healthy either and his production has been horrible yet you're not advocating for him to lose his job, but instead listing reasons why he'll blossom in year 6.
I have to say, if Jones proves you wrong, the size of the crow you will be eating will be record breaking.
Waller had 1 TD last year on 74 targets. He's a complete waste of cap space.
Give his reps to Bellinger and the new TEs and use that money to sign a competent CB to play alongside Banks.
I think the Giants are waiting to cut him
You dont want to kick a man when he is down
Cutting him now.would show the whole team youre just a number
Let him get settle.in his life
Tell.him youre cutting him before camp.so he has time.to find another team
I am just catching up now.
I would say people have stronger views than I do (on both sides) on this particular topic. I'm sort of agnostic. I think Waller was an elite player at one point, but isn't anymore. I like and respect him on a personal level, but it's not like we're talking about someone who has been on the team for 3-plus years. So I wouldn't say I feel any sense of extra loyalty towards him beyond what I would feel towards any Giant. I think when he's healthy he's still a weapon, but the team that cut him has since used two high picks on tight ends, so it's not like they cut him because they didn't value the tight end position. Clearly they do. That sort of tells you something.
We had something a bit like this with Nate Solder, when he was owed a lot of money but clearly didn't have it in his heart of hearts to play anymore due to personal circumstances. He did still play, I think to get the money (he basically admitted this), and he was pretty brutal. I'm not saying because that happened Darren Waller will also be brutal, but you definitely need to have your heart in football to be good in the NFL. Not to mention your body needs to be in top form too.
I don't know if either of those things are in place with Waller. I guess time will tell.
Quote from: madbadger on April 30, 2024, 04:28:15 PMWho though? There aren't legions of good players just sitting around looking for someone to pick them up, and what sort of production would have been acceptable considering what an absolute train wreck our quarterback situation was last year?
I am not even saying the 12 mill needs to be reinvested in the TE unit, spend it elsewhere.
Last year Waller was a disappointment and looked like a guy who wasn't all in. For him to come out this offseason and admit as much, be gone.
Go with Bellinger and develop Johnson. Trade Slayton for a TE.
Get Mercedes Lewis and use him for blocking downs and work Bellinger and Johnson into the passing game.
I am not convinced Jones can progress through 4 receiving routes on 1 play anyway so there is that... at least in his first 5 years he has not so far
Quote from: babywhales on April 30, 2024, 02:41:39 PMWaller's gutless, uninspired brand of football is not what the team needs.
Paying 14 mill for what little he brings to the table I think is a huge waste.
I suspect they will cut him post June 1 so only 1.9 mill will hit this year and 5.9 next year.
It was a nice try but a swing and miss
What did you see in Waller's play that leads you to describe it as gutless? Any examples?
While Waller isn't sure his heart is still in football, he seems to be all in on his music career
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1748432843326267844
Quote from: babywhales on May 01, 2024, 08:27:25 AMLast year Waller was a disappointment and looked like a guy who wasn't all in. For him to come out this offseason and admit as much, be gone.
I am not convinced Jones can progress through 4 receiving routes on 1 play anyway so there is that... at least in his first 5 years he has not so far
Agree on Waller. Also, it's hard to progress through 4 receiving routes when you're on your can or running for your life after your second read.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 01, 2024, 08:38:07 AMWhile Waller isn't sure his heart is still in football, he seems to be all in on his music career
https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1748432843326267844
Maybe he can team up Young Joka.
This makes me want to cut him even more.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 01, 2024, 10:09:58 AMMaybe he can team up Young Joka.
This makes me want to cut him even more.
Yeah that's what I was thinking too. Maybe they can get OBJ and Lil Wayne to join.