Much of the early criticism of Dave Gettleman was that he basically was a front man hired to do the bidding of the Maras.
For example:
"We aren't replacing Eli Manning. Build a team around him. Draft Saquon Barkley."
"We aren't replacing Daniel Jones. Build a team around him."
"We aren't trading Saquon Barkley. Pay the man."
Many suggested that if such ultimatums were issued at the time of Gettleman's hiring, he should have simply refused the job.
I see a lot of folks STILL insist that directives come from John or Chris Mara concerning Daniel Jones' future.
If Gettleman really should have refused the position based on Mara meddling, should the same criticism not apply to Joe Schoen? Do we really believe that Jones is still here because he is the pet of team ownership? Is Joe Schoen really bending to the will of John & Chris Mara? Is Mara Meddling really as big a thing as it's made out to be?
Quote from: TONKA56 on May 03, 2024, 09:26:19 AMMuch of the early criticism of Dave Gettleman was that he basically was a front man hired to do the bidding of the Maras.
For example:
"We aren't replacing Eli Manning. Build a team around him. Draft Saquon Barkley."
"We aren't replacing Daniel Jones. Build a team around him."
"We aren't trading Saquon Barkley. Pay the man."
Many suggested that if such ultimatums were issued at the time of Gettleman's hiring, he should have simply refused the job.
I see a lot folks STILL insist that directives come from John or Chris Mara concerning Daniel Jones' future.
If Gettleman really should have refused the position based on Mara meddling, should the same criticism not apply to Joe Schoen? Do we really believe that Jones is still here because he is the pet of team ownership? Is Joe Schoen really bending to the will of John & Chris Mara? Is Mara Meddling really as big a thing as it's made out to be?
Schoen is just a more astute, good looking, educated Puppet but a puppet nonetheless. You nailed that puzzle
Conspiracy theories are a sign of the times.
I do not think Mara directs the board. Sign off on a 1st round pick or big ticket FA is not the same as steering the ship toward one
Quote from: babywhales on May 03, 2024, 09:37:53 AMConspiracy theories are a sign of the times.
I do not think Mara directs the board. Sign off on a 1st round pick or big ticket FA is not the same as steering the ship toward one
Yes but the results bear out this conspiracy and fit the key to the lock perfectly. (no pun intended on Lock LOL)
Quote from: babywhales on May 03, 2024, 09:37:53 AMConspiracy theories are a sign of the times.
I do not think Mara directs the board. Sign off on a 1st round pick or big ticket FA is not the same as steering the ship toward one
I think the majority of folks on this board agree with you Chris but there is undoubtedly a vocal minority that do not.
Quote from: babywhales on May 03, 2024, 09:37:53 AMConspiracy theories are a sign of the times.
I do not think Mara directs the board. Sign off on a 1st round pick or big ticket FA is not the same as steering the ship toward one
I completely agree. Mara has been adamant that the GM has the final say. There have been zero reports from any insider suggesting that Mara is lying when he says that. To some fans, Mara has become the cartoon villain that every bad or unlucky decision is blamed on.
To be fair, I might be a bit biased because I consider conspiracy theories the bastion of the weak-minded.
I think the Jones deal was the confluence of a number of circumstances, not simply the will of John Mara. The Giants had won a playoff game--which also meant they were picking at the back half and replacing the QB through the draft was significantly tougher--and Mara assuredly, by all accounts, wants Jones to be the guy. I don't think Schoen was compelled to do the deal, but there were a lot of forces at work pulling them in that direction, including Mara's obvious and publicly-stated position on the matter (a stupid thing to announce to the media, but I digress).
Mara ostensibly approved Schoen offering to trade up for Drake Maye, so I don't think he is carte blanche refusing to move on from Jones. The real problem is that he makes his feelings clear to the media (e.g., comments that the Giants had "done everything" to screw up Daniel Jones) and that undoubtedly affects how Schoen does his job. That's poor ownership habits from John Mara. Fine to feel that way, but to put that external pressure on a GM is not effective leadership.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 10:04:57 AMI completely agree. Mara has been adamant that the GM has the final say. There have been zero reports from any insider suggesting that Mara is lying when he says that. To some fans, Mara has become the cartoon villain that every bad or unlucky decision is blamed on.
To be fair, I might be a bit biased because I consider conspiracy theories the bastion of the weak-minded.
LOL ok then. Mara is a benevolent bystander no doubt. I apologize for my accusatory stance.
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 09:37:19 AMSchoen is just a more astute, good looking, educated Puppet but a puppet nonetheless. You nailed that puzzle
I respectfully disagree with your statement and here is why.
Schoen has repeatedly said in interviews that in the past someone talked him out of picking the player that he wanted in the draft, and that player went on to have an excellent career.
He has been adamant that he will never allow someone to do that to him again, he will always go with his gut, and that includes Mara.
Quote from: TONKA56 on May 03, 2024, 09:53:36 AMI think the majority of folks on this board agree with you Chris but there is undoubtedly a vocal minority that do not.
I don't think he interferes with decisions so much as he just can't shut up.
Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 03, 2024, 10:18:37 AMI respectfully disagree with your statement and here is why.
Schoen has repeatedly said in interviews that in the past someone talked him out of picking the player that he wanted in the draft, and that player went on to have an excellent career.
He has been adamant that he will never allow someone to do that to him again, he will always go with his gut, and that includes Mara.
Ok so Machiavellian thinking does not come into play with the Mara's
They are totally transparent. NOT!
There's no conspiracy. Mara hires the GMs and has a voice in the hiring of the coach and also the major money moves, including top draft picks. So in hiring the GMs he is finding someone who aligns with his sensibilities. That's not bad or uncommon. The problem is, Mara's sensibilities when it comes to football and team development, and player personnel are usually very conservative, predictable, and behind the times. His father was the same way. As a result, the GM, because he has similar ideas and thoughts on team building as the owner, won't waver too much from that conservative, safe, sensibility. The result is mediocrity...at best. Could you ever see a maverick or radical (in terms of how he looks at the game) working for Mara? So that is where his influence comes into play.
Quote from: katkavage on May 03, 2024, 12:06:07 PMThere's no conspiracy. Mara hires the GMs and has a voice in the hiring of the coach and also the major money moves, including top draft picks. So in hiring the GMs he is finding someone who aligns with his sensibilities. That's not bad or uncommon. The problem is, Mara's sensibilities when it comes to football and team development, and player personnel are usually very conservative, predictable, and behind the times. His father was the same way. As a result, the GM, because he has similar ideas and thoughts on team building as the owner, won't waver too much from that conservative, safe, sensibility. The result is mediocrity...at best. Could you ever see a maverick or radical (in terms of how he looks at the game) working for Mara? So that is where his influence comes into play.
How did John and his father manage to go to 5 Super Bowls and bring home four trophies?
Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 11:54:42 AMOk so Machiavellian thinking does not come into play with the Mara's
They are totally transparent. NOT!
No, Schoen may have conversations with Mara about what he wants to do, but he and Daboll have final say.
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 12:09:48 PMHow did John and his father manage to go to 5 Super Bowls and bring home four trophies?
That's a really good question Rich- Let me try to answer succinctly with no sarcasm
Broken clock right 2x per day? Emphasis on D when D ruled the world of the NFL?
All those trophies came to teams that were not steamrollers by any means
All came from management that was forced on the Maras by fan revolt
All these teams grew in ability as the football year passed, they were late chargers
We were never a dominant multi-year powerhouse
A lot of it was sheer force of will and sometimes incredible good fortune like "The Catch" to beat the Patriots
We never had dominant QBs but adequate ones
We thrived on excellent DE play
I believe Schoen is a smart guy, and rather that go head to head with Mara he placated him keeping Jones and Barkley despite knowing he would not win with either and playing them full time so that Mara was happy. Schoen knew he had many many holes to fill and losing meant good draft position year after year until he was ready to pounce
We won't win another if we do not adapt to the new rules and the extreme emphasis on offense of todays game while maintaining a strong D
Without a real NFL QB who has pocket awareness and can make all the throws we might not see another Lombardy in my lifetime- Im 77
Now the worm is finally turning. Tommy broke the Eagles stranglehold
Their house is crumbling- Kelce knew when the right moment was to exit
My prediction- Tommy will get the reigns by mid season. He has the mindset and all the tools to bring us back
The roster has gone from tragic when Schoen arrived to on the verge of
competing for real
Schoen does not want Jones and Drew Whatshisface is just a head fake to buy Time.
By this time next year DeVito will be the starter or we will acquire a top flight QB from the draft or trade- then things get interesting
Other possibility- The team just jells and we start another improbable march to another Lombardy even as soon as this year...there are no steamrollers in this NFL. The NFL has achieved parity- perfect conditions for us to re-arise like the Phoenix
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 12:09:48 PMHow did John and his father manage to go to 5 Super Bowls and bring home four trophies?
Thank you, Pete Rozelle. He bestowed upon the Giants, whether they liked it or not, George Young. Appointed by Rozelle to save the floundering franchise. Given autonomy, Young put in process a plan. It delivered. And from Young and his doings the Giants got Accorsi. Now John Mara is left to his own devices. So far, not so good. But I'm happy that I experienced those Super Bowl wins.
Bingo. It's scary what the Giants would have been like if George Young never came. And, Wellington would never have hired him if he wasn't forced to.
To all.
Go back and get a copy of Dave Klein's paperback, "Giants Again" which tells the most complete story of how the Giants worked through "The Wilderness Years" all the way to the other side with George Young, AND Ray Perkins getting the Giants into the 1981 playoffs. A gutsy call in the 1979 draft to pick Phil Simms, and luck on their side, in the 1981 draft, when the Saints took George Rogers with the first pick, which opened the door for the Giants to select Lawrence Taylor, and the rest is history.
Peace!
Quote from: kartanoman on May 03, 2024, 05:14:15 PMTo all.
Go back and get a copy of Dave Klein's paperback, "Giants Again" which tells the most complete story of how the Giants worked through "The Wilderness Years" all the way to the other side with George Young, AND Ray Perkins getting the Giants into the 1981 playoffs. A gutsy call in the 1979 draft to pick Phil Simms, and luck on their side, in the 1981 draft, when the Saints took George Rogers with the first pick, which opened the door for the Giants to select Lawrence Taylor, and the rest is history.
Peace!
Remember it well. Gutsy was going with unproven Bill Parcels after Perkins left. And sticking with him after that terrible first year. I compare it somewhat to when George Steinbrenner was exiled for a few years and Gene Michael went to work on the Yankees without interference. Results followed.
At one point Jim Dolan was a meddling owner who managed to destroy two flagship franchises for nearly three decades. Always the slow learner it took him nearly 20 years to realize that he was the problem. He has largely removed himself from the day to day operations of both franchises to great success. Perhaps after a decade of futility the Mara's have come to the conclusion that their meddling is the problem. It's entirely possible that Gettleman was a puppet and Schoen has free rein. Rose and Drury have free rein but Isaiah Thomas and Glenn Sather were incompetent yes men who clung to power because they largely insulated Dolan from direct criticism. I don't understand why that's difficult to comprehend. No conspiracy as far as I can tell.
I've shared this before. Pretty great read.
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2016/08/07/wilderness-years-new-york-giants-1964-1978/
Quote from: katkavage on May 03, 2024, 01:23:53 PMThank you, Pete Rozelle. He bestowed upon the Giants, whether they liked it or not, George Young. Appointed by Rozelle to save the floundering franchise. Given autonomy, Young put in process a plan. It delivered. And from Young and his doings the Giants got Accorsi. Now John Mara is left to his own devices. So far, not so good. But I'm happy that I experienced those Super Bowl wins.
That is correct Kat, but in those days, when Wellington was the boss, our GM, Mr. Young, was lord and master over everything. To the best of my memory, Wellington never meddled into anything Giants business. Young did as he pleased, hired, fired, drafted and if he needed to run it by Wellington, which I doubt, it was just a sign-off. We used to say the BM of the Giants was a job for life unless they wanted to step down. I believe Accorias had similar power, It wasn't until Wellington passed and John took over, that the meddling started. Now our GM is more of a figurehead if he ahs to get John to sign off on everything.
Check out this article
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl/nfl-news-why-did-new-york-giants-decide-to-stick-with-daniel-jones-co-owner-john-mara-s-heavy-influence/ar-AA1o6pTR?ocid=mailsignout&pc=U591&cvid=42a08b899d914261ad02f74e778ca1e0&ei=9
Quote from: LennG on May 03, 2024, 08:25:21 PMThat is correct Kat, but in those days, when Wellington was the boss, our GM, Mr. Young, was lord and master over everything. To the best of my memory, Wellington never meddled into anything Giants business. Young did as he pleased, hired, fired, drafted and if he needed to run it by Wellington, which I doubt, it was just a sign-off. We used to say the BM of the Giants was a job for life unless they wanted to step down. I believe Accorias had similar power, It wasn't until Wellington passed and John took over, that the meddling started. Now our GM is more of a figurehead if he ahs to get John to sign off on everything.
Len, he agreed to the job only if he had that autonomy. It was part of the deal brokered by Rozelle. And one of his first moves in his rebuild. Knowing a QB was the essential first step. He drafted Phil Simms.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 03, 2024, 11:28:44 AMI don't think he interferes with decisions so much as he just can't shut up.
This.
John Mara is what the kids now call a "nepo baby". He's where he is because the job fell into his lap as Wellington's son (and Wellington inherited HIS role from HIS daddy). He literally has nothing else to do besides the Giants. No real job. No outside business of his own. So he talks. A lot.
George Young ran the team as a dictator. For better or worse. In effect, the NFL took over the Giants franchise in 1979 after "The Fumble" because Wellington Mara had run it into the ground with 15 years of mismanagement and awful decision-making and his nephew Tim, Jr., had to step in and block Wellington's rule. Wellington and his side of the family owned 50% of the franchise and Tim's family (as the son of Wellington's sister) owned the other 50%. Pete Rozelle essentially forced Wellington to hire Young as a GM and to become a figurehead signing checks and hanging out on the field with the players while Young ran the show. That went really well for about 10 years until Young lost his touch in the 1990s, especially when he drafted Dave Brown and cut Phil Simms about 2-3 years too soon (though he did manage to draft Michael Strahan and Tiki Barber before retiring). Accorsi wasn't a great GM but he drafted Eli and Tom Coughlin was hired as HC during his tenure (against Accorsi's desires, he and Coughlin didn't really get along). By then, the Maras were once again involved in decision-making.
The Giants ownership is an odd structure. John Mara is not the owner. He and his brother Chris are part co-owners, and their side of the Mara family owns 50% of the team. The other 50% is owned by the Tisch family, which bought that share from Tim Mara, Jr.'s family. For me, the problem begins once the ownership and professional side are mixed. For instance, Chris Mara is both a Giants executive and a co-owner. Which means, essentially, that he can never be fired. And John Mara cannot be fired as team president, though he is clearly incompetent at his job.
The Giants have been a bad team since 2012 because, essentially, the owners have made a string of poor hires at both the GM position (Gettleman, who wasn't a puppet, just bad), and head coach (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, while the jury is out on Daboll). It's as simple as that.
Quote from: BlueMoshik on May 04, 2024, 06:23:27 AMGeorge Young ran the team as a dictator. For better or worse. In effect, the NFL took over the Giants franchise in 1979 after "The Fumble" because Wellington Mara had run it into the ground with 15 years of mismanagement and awful decision-making and his nephew Tim, Jr., had to step in and block Wellington's rule. Wellington and his side of the family owned 50% of the franchise and Tim's family (as the son of Wellington's sister) owned the other 50%. Pete Rozelle essentially forced Wellington to hire Young as a GM and to become a figurehead signing checks and hanging out on the field with the players while Young ran the show. That went really well for about 10 years until Young lost his touch in the 1990s, especially when he drafted Dave Brown and cut Phil Simms about 2-3 years too soon (though he did manage to draft Michael Strahan and Tiki Barber before retiring). Accorsi wasn't a great GM but he drafted Eli and Tom Coughlin was hired as HC during his tenure (against Accorsi's desires, he and Coughlin didn't really get along). By then, the Maras were once again involved in decision-making.
The Giants ownership is an odd structure. John Mara is not the owner. He and his brother Chris are part co-owners, and their side of the Mara family owns 50% of the team. The other 50% is owned by the Tisch family, which bought that share from Tim Mara, Jr.'s family. For me, the problem begins once the ownership and professional side are mixed. For instance, Chris Mara is both a Giants executive and a co-owner. Which means, essentially, that he can never be fired. And John Mara cannot be fired as team president, though he is clearly incompetent at his job.
The Giants have been a bad team since 2012 because, essentially, the owners have made a string of poor hires at both the GM position (Gettleman, who wasn't a puppet, just bad), and head coach (McAdoo, Shurmur, Judge, while the jury is out on Daboll). It's as simple as that.
Perfect post that sums up the state of the Giants. I agree that Young did lose touch. The Ray Handley hiring, though he had to rush into that was a debacle. And then the Dave Brown mistake. You are very correct about how John Mara, whether he wants to or not, is involved in the running of the football team. I repeat that there is no conspiracy. It's just that Mara hires those he feels comfortable with and are aligned with his conservative (in team running) sensibilities. He wants someone on the same page as he is. Thus we fans have suffered for over a decade with no end in sight unless lady luck interferes.
Quote from: nb587 on May 03, 2024, 04:48:41 PMBingo. It's scary what the Giants would have been like if George Young never came. And, Wellington would never have hired him if he wasn't forced to.
The Detroit Lions, that's what we would've been.
Conspiracy Theories: The bastion of the weak minded. =))
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 05, 2024, 07:43:04 AMConspiracy Theories: The bastion of the weak minded. =))
And there are many many weak minded out there these days.
Quote from: TONKA56 on May 03, 2024, 06:52:07 PMI've shared this before. Pretty great read.
https://www.bigblueinteractive.com/2016/08/07/wilderness-years-new-york-giants-1964-1978/
When you scroll to the bottom, try to find these books and read them. I bought many of them years ago and they are insightful and give you a greater appreciation for those folks who made up the Giants in the past: even when it was going bad.
It's easy to cast the absolute whole as bad. But to do so is to throw the baby out with the bath water. So many good players and support staff who were stand-up soldiers during those times. That's why the Super Bowl XXI glory carried over onto them, for their efforts were not in vain.
Peace!
Quote from: Ed Vette on May 05, 2024, 07:43:04 AMConspiracy Theories: The bastion of the weak minded. =))
Its 3PM in Germany and I'm feeling a bit faint....maybe I need to get some sugar in me :-)
Anyway since the second shot I can't feel my feet- no joke there...
Conspiracy theories have shown to be dangerous and even deadly
How to Immunize Yourself From Conspiracy Theories
We can all do our part to tamp down the frenzy of conspiracy theories with a few simple steps:
1)Don't assume that "secret" information is more accurate than public information. The information we get from newspapers and news magazines often requires fact checks and editorial reviews before publishing. Such reports may prove more accurate because of its need to withstand public scrutiny.
2)Examine the emotional payoff you get from going down the rabbit hole of conspiracy theories. Do you find it an exciting way to bond with friends? Is it engrossing and entertaining, like an exciting game? Ask yourself if the payoff is worth the agitation and feelings of fear that follow (Wilbur, D. et al., 2021).
3)Think like a scientist by looking for evidence against the conspiracy. Examine evidence from credible sources: peer-reviewed journal articles and books, for example, or mainstream news outlets with a professional, bylined editorial staff. Non-credible sources may include social-media posts without named authors or cited sources of information. The more extreme and outrageous the claim, the more evidence should be required.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/frazzlebrain/202309/why-conspiracy-theories-are-fun-but-dangerous-0
Quote from: kartanoman on May 03, 2024, 05:14:15 PMTo all.
Go back and get a copy of Dave Klein's paperback, "Giants Again" which tells the most complete story of how the Giants worked through "The Wilderness Years" all the way to the other side with George Young, AND Ray Perkins getting the Giants into the 1981 playoffs. A gutsy call in the 1979 draft to pick Phil Simms, and luck on their side, in the 1981 draft, when the Saints took George Rogers with the first pick, which opened the door for the Giants to select Lawrence Taylor, and the rest is history.
Peace!
Back in the day I would drop notes to GY and he always answered. I still have a few 40+years later. Prior to the 81 draft I asked who he planned to select ( he was always frank and forthcoming in his responses ). He replied back .. I haven't even told my confessor who I'm taking. In a post draft note he thanked his lucky stars that the Saints were one of the 4 teams that had a higher grade on Rogers than LT. BTW, Rogers and LT won OROY andDROY respectively and this draft also produced 8 HOFers
Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 12:09:48 PMHow did John and his father manage to go to 5 Super Bowls and bring home four trophies?
They had Ernie A. as GM. And he had to drag Wellington kicking and screaming to draft a QB with the top3 pick in the 2004 draft.
Quote from: Rosehill Jimmy on May 05, 2024, 01:05:05 PMBack in the day I would drop notes to GY and he always answered. I still have a few 40+years later. Prior to the 81 draft I asked who he planned to select ( he was always frank and forthcoming in his responses ). He replied back .. I haven't even told my confessor who I'm taking. In a post draft note he thanked his lucky stars that the Saints were one of the 4 teams that had a higher grade on Rogers than LT. BTW, Rogers and LT won OROY andDROY respectively and this draft also produced 8 HOFers
Thank you for sharing, great stuff!
That 1981 draft was something else. It also did something special. It took two doormat teams and and not only changed their fortunes, but set their respective courses to climb out of the ashes of the 70s to the height of NFL powerhouses in the 80s. Of course, I'm talking about the Giants and the 49ers. Ronnie Lott and Lawrence Taylor did more for their teams to reach the pinnacle. The 49ers also added Eric Wright and Carlton Williamson to fortify their secondary, along with Lott, which dominated the '81 post-season. But the Giants didn't do too bad either in adding Byron Hunt to the LB corps, and nose tackle Bill Neill who started right away and showed promise until injuries slowed him down. Then, there was this free agent nose tackle, Jim Burt, who played with an attitude from day one and worked his way to All Pro status.
Great memories!
Quote from: Fletch on May 05, 2024, 08:45:54 PMThey had Ernie A. as GM. And he had to drag Wellington kicking and screaming to draft a QB with the top3 pick in the 2004 draft.
False.
Wellington had nothing to do with the 2004 draft. He wasn't involved in the draft. Ernie Accorsi wasn't a great GM but Eli was the highest rated QB that year on everybody's list. The Giants actually drafted Philip Rivers 3rd overall in order to trade him to San Diego who drafted Eli, who refused to play in San Diego. That was Accorsi's best move (also refusing to trade Osi Umenyora). The Giants were only in that position in the first place because they went 4-12 in 2003, Jim Fassel's final year as HC.
The 2007 and 2011 championships had a lot to do with Jerry Reese's early moves, including the outstanding draft class of 2007 (Bradshaw, Steve Smith, Kevin Boss, Aaron Ross), and then getting Victor Cruz, Hakeem Nicks, JPP, and Antrel Rolle. Not to mention Tom Coughlin's outstanding leadership and the presence of Michael Strahan (drafted by George Young), Tuck (drafted by Accorsi), and Plaxico Burress in 2007 (signed by Accorsi).
John has nothing to do with the earlier Super Bowls. And they came because the Mara family was completely sidelined from the football decisions. That's when the Giants have always done best.
Can you prove Wellington had nothing to do with the draft in 2004?
It's been some years now but I remember distinctly reading in a newspaper quoting Ernie that Wellington didn't want to take a QB. Yes I am aware of the trade but Ernie would have been just as happy w drafting Big Ben.
Also it's hard to take seriously a claim of credit to a GM with a coach , qb, and several excellent players already in place with a sb win. The guy hasn't had a job in 20 years