What are you expecting from Kayvon Thibodeaux in 2024? What do you think his season will look like? Will it be materially different from 2023? If so, how exactly?
I really don't know. On the one hand we have two seasons and have a feel for him (a solid edge but not living up to his draft status). On the other hand, Wink's system wasn't friendly to edge players. Thibs might get a boost from Bowen being the DC
Quote from: MightyGiants on June 14, 2024, 08:07:00 PMI really don't know. On the one hand we have two seasons and have a feel for him (a solid edge but not living up to his draft status). On the other hand, Wink's system wasn't friendly to edge players. Thibs might get a boost from Bowen being the DC
Burns lining up opposite from him should be a boon.
I'm not going to put numbers on my answer. I want Thibs to be more of an every drive presence than he was last year. I think year two was a nice step forward, and no doubt he had a few pretty impressive games, but I want to feel him out there more consistently this year.
If we're talking purely stats, I'd like to see a few more TFLs besides sacks than he had last year and more solo tackles overall. If he does what I indicated in the first paragraph, I think you'll see these types of numbers increase for him.
I agree with Mad's comment that Burns' presence should be a boon.
Winks Edge players have always been at a disadvantage.
I think he burst onto the national level with 15+ sacks but more importantly his pass rush win rate jumps up a good amount.
If he has a breakout year (which I fully expect because he looked lost dropping back in coverage so many times last year)....then what does it say about Wink?
Quote from: madbadger on June 14, 2024, 08:44:33 PMBurns lining up opposite from him should be a boon.
Good comment. From what I have seen, Burns seems to be firing up Thibs off the field as well as offering a threat on the opposite side that will limit how much blocking can focus on Thibs.
I think he will have a breakout year. Not only because of the presence of Burns on the other side (which is huge), and Dex requiring double/triple teams, it's his attitude. Since day 1, he has been determined to show everyone he should have been the first pick off the board. He has steadily improved his moves, his physical abilities, strength, etc., and managed 11½ sacks last year at 22 yrs old, and spending more time falling back in coverage than going on attack. He has studied his role the way a nuclear scientist studies physics, with a desire to understand every nuance of game strategy. He is never satisfied with where he's at. His mentality is that he wants to be the biggest star on the team and in New York - because of his play, not because of side hobbies or playing up to the media. He is quietly driven...something money can't buy. He has taken the lesson of "how to be a pro", hook, line, and sinker and applied it to the way he carries himself and is "all business", not allowing any side distractions. He has become the pre-eminent professional
If he is deployed the way I think he will be (asked to get into the backfield high majority of plays) I think his pass rush will ne more effective but he may get exposed in the run game.
I agree, he'll be a true weapon, to the degree of being Osi like. I also think we see lots of attention grabbing moments he will surely take advantage of and I suspect he has been practicing a variety of dance moves. Burns signing is going to be the best thing that ever happened for him.
My expectation is that he continues to develop as a more complete player - not just strip sacks but running down QBs or RBs frim behind, not getting washed out on so many plays from blockers. I hope to see relevancy throughout the game not just in a few plays — doing it in tiny ways.
He has the capacity for greatness.
His tackling needs attention, and perhaps some more upper body strength but he is on the verge of great things IMHO
As I recall Strahan took a while to mature into the Pro Bowl level player he became. I wonder if they speak to each other on a regular basis
I'm expecting big things.
If you go back to his Oregon days which made him a top 5 pick, he was playing a 43 RDE role. Hand in the dirt pass rusher.
Then he gets drafted into Wink's whacky scheme (a "positionless" defense) where he's just an "O" filling a gap.
He was never good value for Wink's scheme. It's no secret the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner, with the amount of cover 0 Wink plays. When they couldn't get Sauce, they pivoted to Thibs - but ER's are not prioritized in his scheme so he wasn't able to showcase his special ability. How many times did we see him dropping into coverage, working out of a 2 pt. stance, taking an exaggerated looping rush to contain the QB etc.? Wink's pressures are manufactured and he can use anybody to do it.
If you notice, Wink talked up Thibs after he was drafted, but Schoen mentioned one of the things he learned from Parcells in Miami was not drafting scheme-specific players. (Because schemes change.) Knowing what we know of Wink & Schoen now, the Thibs pick seems like Schoen sticking to positional value at 5, and ignoring the lack of mesh with Wink's philosophy. They were quick to "throw Wink a bone" next draft and use the #1 on Deonte Banks.
Summary: The Giants haven't optimized the value out of that #5 overall pick, but they might now, with Bowen's more traditional approach. The front 4 will be expected to provide the pass rush, and Thibs will be attacking off the edge like a DE. Wink's scheme is player-simple and requires no thinking. Thibs is a cerebral, creative football player who I think will thrive in a more cerebral scheme.
Okereke and Burns talked about this recently. The Giants have some high IQ players on D, particularly in the front 7. Dexter. Thibs. Burns. Okereke. Even Simmons. Let these guys use their instincts and ability to breakdown their opponent a little bit more.
Quote from: 4 Aces on June 15, 2024, 10:43:54 AMI'm expecting big things.
If you go back to his Oregon days which made him a top 5 pick, he was playing a 43 RDE role. Hand in the dirt pass rusher.
Then he gets drafted into Wink's whacky scheme (a "positionless" defense) where he's just an "O" filling a gap.
He was never good value for Wink's scheme. It's no secret the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner, with the amount of cover 0 Wink plays. When they couldn't get Sauce, they pivoted to Thibs - but ER's are not prioritized in his scheme so he wasn't able to showcase his special ability. How many times did we see him dropping into coverage, working out of a 2 pt. stance, taking an exaggerated looping rush to contain the QB etc.? Wink's pressures are manufactured and he can use anybody to do it.
If you notice, Wink talked up Thibs after he was drafted, but Schoen mentioned one of the things he learned from Parcells in Miami was not drafting scheme-specific players. (Because schemes change.) Knowing what we know of Wink & Schoen now, the Thibs pick seems like Schoen sticking to positional value at 5, and ignoring the lack of mesh with Wink's philosophy. They were quick to "throw Wink a bone" next draft and use the #1 on Deonte Banks.
Summary: The Giants haven't optimized the value out of that #5 overall pick, but they might now, with Bowen's more traditional approach. The front 4 will be expected to provide the pass rush, and Thibs will be attacking off the edge like a DE. Wink's scheme is player-simple and requires no thinking. Thibs is a cerebral, creative football player who I think will thrive in a more cerebral scheme.
Superb analysis :ok:
Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 10:47:14 PMIf he has a breakout year (which I fully expect because he looked lost dropping back in coverage so many times last year)....then what does it say about Wink?
Looking back, Wink's defenses in Baltimore were never outstanding in sacks, INTS, run stopping, red zone. Where they were exceptional was opponent passer rating and the all important points yielded. It's a curious combination, but the special sauce might be that Baltimore was always at or near the top in TOP, and that wasn't because of 3&outs or takeaways it was because Baltimore had a ball control offense that led the league in rushing attempts every year Wink was there. And in his final year even the things his defense had been good at, including scoring defense, fell off the cliff.
What may be a sign of hope for us though, is the fact that after he left Baltimore's defense improved in a lot of categories. May it be so for the Giants.
I think we tend to get over-enthusiastic about new coaches, particularly if they have a hook. Wink, Coach Chaos, (both of whom are out of the NFL after their stints with the Giants) etc. And a whole line of OL coaches who were regarded as saviors.
Thibs is slightly above average NFL talent. Good enough to play a lot but seldom a difference maker.
A bust considering where he was drafted. We got a few of those on this team which is why I vote for trading out of the first round every year.
Im not going to blame Wink for anything. If he dropped This int coverage, he still had 11.5 sacks?
Without Wink we might have been easily the worst team in the NFL
This new guy has big shoes to step into
Personally I would have sent Daboll packing and elevated Wink to HC....if it had to be one or the other
Quote from: Giant Obsession on June 16, 2024, 10:20:27 AMThibs is slightly above average NFL talent. Good enough to play a lot but seldom a difference maker.
A bust considering where he was drafted. We got a few of those on this team which is why I vote for trading out of the first round every year.
I'm almost 100% sure that your opinion of him will change drastically this upcoming season. When was the last time we even had a doubled digit sack guy of which Thibs was last year. I don't think anyone that gets 11 sacks in their second season should be called a bust especially considering how many times wink had him in coverage vs actually going for the passer.
I think calling Thibs a bust is exttremely harsh, myself. I can agree that he has been somewhat underwhelming relative to being taken 5th overall, but "somewhat underwhelming" after two seasons is not the same thing as being a bust.
Neal is the guy from that draft who is a bust (so far at least). Not Thibs in my opinion.
Thibs was a double digit sack guy in his second year in the NFL. I appreciate there are other areas of development in his game, but double digit sacks is still double digit sacks. Not one of LT, Strahan, Tuck, or Umeniyora did that. So to me at least, the term "bust" is a bit premature to say the least.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on June 15, 2024, 04:15:57 PMLooking back, Wink's defenses in Baltimore were never outstanding in sacks, INTS, run stopping, red zone. Where they were exceptional was opponent passer rating and the all important points yielded. It's a curious combination, but the special sauce might be that Baltimore was always at or near the top in TOP, and that wasn't because of 3&outs or takeaways it was because Baltimore had a ball control offense that led the league in rushing attempts every year Wink was there. And in his final year even the things his defense had been good at, including scoring defense, fell off the cliff.
What may be a sign of hope for us though, is the fact that after he left Baltimore's defense improved in a lot of categories. May it be so for the Giants.
I think we tend to get over-enthusiastic about new coaches, particularly if they have a hook. Wink, Coach Chaos, (both of whom are out of the NFL after their stints with the Giants) etc. And a whole line of OL coaches who were regarded as saviors.
Mike Lombardi always like to say the less a defense has to player the easier it it for them
Quote from: 4 Aces on June 15, 2024, 10:43:54 AMI'm expecting big things.
If you go back to his Oregon days which made him a top 5 pick, he was playing a 43 RDE role. Hand in the dirt pass rusher.
Then he gets drafted into Wink's whacky scheme (a "positionless" defense) where he's just an "O" filling a gap.
He was never good value for Wink's scheme. It's no secret the Giants wanted Sauce Gardner, with the amount of cover 0 Wink plays. When they couldn't get Sauce, they pivoted to Thibs - but ER's are not prioritized in his scheme so he wasn't able to showcase his special ability. How many times did we see him dropping into coverage, working out of a 2 pt. stance, taking an exaggerated looping rush to contain the QB etc.? Wink's pressures are manufactured and he can use anybody to do it.
If you notice, Wink talked up Thibs after he was drafted, but Schoen mentioned one of the things he learned from Parcells in Miami was not drafting scheme-specific players. (Because schemes change.) Knowing what we know of Wink & Schoen now, the Thibs pick seems like Schoen sticking to positional value at 5, and ignoring the lack of mesh with Wink's philosophy. They were quick to "throw Wink a bone" next draft and use the #1 on Deonte Banks.
Summary: The Giants haven't optimized the value out of that #5 overall pick, but they might now, with Bowen's more traditional approach. The front 4 will be expected to provide the pass rush, and Thibs will be attacking off the edge like a DE. Wink's scheme is player-simple and requires no thinking. Thibs is a cerebral, creative football player who I think will thrive in a more cerebral scheme.
Okereke and Burns talked about this recently. The Giants have some high IQ players on D, particularly in the front 7. Dexter. Thibs. Burns. Okereke. Even Simmons. Let these guys use their instincts and ability to breakdown their opponent a little bit more.
Dude, this is excellent! =D> =D> =D>
This post alone got me stupid hyped for the season!!! :Chestram: :boldblue: :nanner: :goteam: :cheers:
With Dex and Burns, I don't think Thibs will see the double teaming he saw last year. Should help his production.
Is there even a possibility that someone could answer that question without personal bias? About the best any of us might do regarding an "expectation" would be to suggest a benefit, liability, or no change based on an anticipated difference in the scheme and/or talent around him which at best is also wishful thought, one way or another. That said, I would lean toward "better"
Cheers!
Im expecting 15 sacks and 5 forced fumbles from Thibs
Quote from: nb587 on June 17, 2024, 09:31:43 AMWith Dex and Burns, I don't think Thibs will see the double teaming he saw last year. Should help his production.
And having the 2nd best MLB in the NFL near him in this alignment should hide some of the run defending deficiencies.
I don't care as much about raw numbers as much as I'd like to see him have a much greater impact in big games i.e. vs divisional opponents i.e. Dallas and Philadelphia.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on June 16, 2024, 11:54:02 AMI think calling Thibs a bust is exttremely harsh, myself. I can agree that he has been somewhat underwhelming relative to being taken 5th overall, but "somewhat underwhelming" after two seasons is not the same thing as being a bust.
Neal is the guy from that draft who is a bust (so far at least). Not Thibs in my opinion.
Thibs was a double digit sack guy in his second year in the NFL. I appreciate there are other areas of development in his game, but double digit sacks is still double digit sacks. Not one of LT, Strahan, Tuck, or Umeniyora did that. So to me at least, the term "bust" is a bit premature to say the least.
How could Neal look so good in college and so terrible as a pro? Shows its a heavy lift to go from college to the NFL- Bigger, Stronger, Faster opponents.
Quote from: BluesCruz on June 19, 2024, 07:54:01 AMHow could Neal look so good in college and so terrible as a pro?
Happens all the time. Usually OTs taken in the top 10 don't bust this badly, but it does happen. Not the first time and it won't be the last.
Set the edge
Control the run game
Develop 2 solid moves to use against top tackles
14-16 sacks
Increased overall tackles
Quote from: babywhales on June 19, 2024, 10:02:27 PMSet the edge
Control the run game
Develop 2 solid moves to use against top tackles
14-16 sacks
Increased overall tackles
If he does that he will make the Pro Bowl and we will be very pleased.
I would add - become a true fan favorite by making his biggest plays on 3rd down as the Giants Stadium is shaking!
One thing I don't have the slightest doubt of is that I will continue to struggle to spell his name correctly. 8))
Quote from: Trench on June 20, 2024, 09:03:17 PMIf he does that he will make the Pro Bowl and we will be very pleased.
I would add - become a true fan favorite by making his biggest plays on 3rd down as the Giants Stadium is shaking!
Agreed on that! That "game winning" sack he made on Zach Wilson last year was exactly that. Pass rushers are closers. It's why they're the highest paid non-QB in the game, and why I'm personally so fond of maintaining an elite rush. Most NFL games come down to the last possession. When you've got a late lead and the other team
has to throw the ball, there's nothing like having a nasty pass rush to win the game. That's Giants football.
Conversely, if you don't have a pass rush, you will come up short in those situations, something we've seen far too often the last several years. Wink was great in those situations, but the Giants now have the front 4 to make them tough to come back on in the last 2 minutes. Without blitzing. Dexter is going to forklift your C backwards and you'll have Thibs and Burns screaming in off the edge. That's tough to deal with.