This post is for our members (and visitors) who are afflicted with JDS (Jones Derangement Syndrome).
I do it out of respect for the viewpoints of those members who are already "done" with him, hoping they can better enjoy the season (although you would rather see someone else at QB) by understanding what he was up against last year. If he's granted the grace of one final bit of "blind faith" I think more can be gotten out of this season than just "tolerating" the situation for another year.
Won't bore you with any specifics. The most important part of the link below (Schmelk's interview with Robert Mays, a truly knowledgeable pod-caster/writer employed by The Athletic) lasts ONLY FIVE MINUTES (the first five) of the long interview and IMO it will give a point of reference to anyone willing to listen with an open mind. The guys go through Jones' six games from last season and explain why no QB would have had a chance of succeeding.
Bob https://www.giants.com/video/giants-huddle-robert-mays
PS. IMO Jones was lucky to get hurt early. If he'd played all 17 games he might be dead now. /sarcasm/
To this topic, Tyler Dunn has done 4 long-form (pay-wall) articles about Jones and the Giants.
If you go to the 8-minute mark, Art and Tyler talk about Jones and the mystery where those (including players) mock Jones, but those who play with him and know him as a teammate love him.
The whole video is good, but Jones starts at the 8:00-minute mark.
Regardless of the counterpoints, fans are seeing this quite often.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GWT3PYbXEAAB2-1?format=jpg&name=large)
When you consider NFL team executives and coaches have Jones ranked 23 out of 30, having the Giant's QB situation the 3rd worst seems like an exercise in bias.
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 31, 2024, 09:31:58 AMRegardless of the counterpoints, fans are seeing this quite often.
When you consider NFL team executives and coaches have Jones ranked 23 out of 30, having the Giant's QB situation the 3rd worst seems like an exercise in bias.
There's a few things worth noting here.
- The original list only has 30 QBs on it and doesn't include any of the rookies. Of the 6 teams that took QBs in the first round, only three had QBs on that list. Despite Sam Darnold and Jacoby Brissett being at the bottom of that list, I doubt those same executives would take the Giants' situation over the Vikings or Patriots.
- Guys like Anthony Richardson, Will Levis and Bryce Young were listed slightly below Jones. However, like the rookies, those guys are on their initial deals and provide much better opportunity for their teams to build around them.
- One of the two teams above us has two QBs on Sando's list and one is listed at 22 to Jones' 23
Ultimately, you shouldn't expect consistent answers when looking at two lists that are built off of different questions
Rich: I agree with inclusion of the phrase "some of which was his own doing" in describing Jones' issues.
I say that notwithstanding that those two guys are making the same point (generally speaking).
To state the inverse of this point, I watch a lot of Mahomes' games over and over. He is a great QB, but he's also a very lucky guy, not only because he was drafted into a perfect situation with a top-notch head coach and stable organization, but also because he has a couple of unbelievable personnel to bail him out when he makes a mistake (and he does make his fair share).
Bob
There's a whole lot of things driving this phenomena...group mentality, frustration with the Giants, horrible media criticism (who know so much that they aren't coaching football [at any level], but blabbing opinions that you hear in the neighborhood bar, playing behind an offensive line that literally sucks and puts the QB in friggin danger every time he touches the ball, etc. Talk about every obstacle possible to derail a young man. Then throw in, throngs of fans and pundits just waiting for a single mistake (any mistake), to verify their "superior understanding of football than you". We get it. We all want our team to win. But assigning 100% of the blame on a single player is insanity. Even assigning 75% of the blame on a single player is insanity. BTW, the Hall of Fame is filled to the brim with players who made mistakes (plenty of them)...and half of them got there because of the situation they fell into, on a team already built to win. Need an example: Toney has two superbowl rings in only 3 years in the NFL :crazy:
Regardless, such is the life of a fan base. As for me, I have always said that I just want a competitive team that is fun to watch. When the team is not competitive at all, it's no fun. Personally, I believe the combo of Schoen/Daboll is a godsend. I believe we are turning the corner and headed in the right direction. I wish it could be faster, but it is what it is
BTW, great podcast/video. Thanks for sharing Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on August 31, 2024, 09:31:58 AMWhen you consider NFL team executives and coaches have Jones ranked 23 out of 30, having the Giant's QB situation the 3rd worst seems like an exercise in bias.
Rich,
I assume the term "QB situation" refers to the whole QB room, not just the starter. I believe these rankings are taking into account that we downgraded at the QB2 position this year.
Many teams have non-starting QBs on the roster who are either better, or at least more promising, than Lock/Devito. Whatever anyone thinks of Jones, the fact remains that our starting QB has remained healthy all season only once in his five year career. Plus he's coming off a major injury. So I think it's reasonable to weigh very heavily our entire QB room when one is talking about teams' "QB situations."
DJ doesn"t really do anything well except run but does quit a few things badly. Sadly He is a dead end
People are under the impression that a better QB would have made the OL, WR, defense, better. IMO, Swap Pat Mahomes with Daniel Jones and the Giants may have won 2 more games per year. Better, yes, but nothing significant. Do the Chiefs still win the Super Bowls? Not all 3, but might have won 1.
Every year we try to build around him, and every year (excluding the unicorn run in '22) it fails. So yeah, people do tend to draw conclusions based on actual results rather than excuses. They're funny that way.
Insisting that "Daniel Jones might still be the answer, you don't knooooooow" is just Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Grade-A teammate and human being, though.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on August 31, 2024, 10:40:11 AMThere's a few things worth noting here.
- The original list only has 30 QBs on it and doesn't include any of the rookies. Of the 6 teams that took QBs in the first round, only three had QBs on that list. Despite Sam Darnold and Jacoby Brissett being at the bottom of that list, I doubt those same executives would take the Giants' situation over the Vikings or Patriots.
- Guys like Anthony Richardson, Will Levis and Bryce Young were listed slightly below Jones. However, like the rookies, those guys are on their initial deals and provide much better opportunity for their teams to build around them.
- One of the two teams above us has two QBs on Sando's list and one is listed at 22 to Jones' 23
Ultimately, you shouldn't expect consistent answers when looking at two lists that are built off of different questions
jg: Very interesting points. Nice post.
I think there definitely is a "bang-for-the-buck" element that must be considered in the salary cap era when determining which QB's are best and worst.
Rookie QB's are an extreme wild-card in pro football. Most of them get abused by sneaky or clever defensive coordinators who set them up early in games for disaster at key moments in the 2nd half, so you can never be "too cautious" when evaluating them.
Bob
Quote from: y_so_blu on September 01, 2024, 01:31:06 PMEvery year we try to build around him, and every year (excluding the unicorn run in '22) it fails. So yeah, people do tend to draw conclusions based on actual results rather than excuses. They're funny that way.
Insisting that "Daniel Jones might still be the answer, you don't knooooooow" is just Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Grade-A teammate and human being, though.
This is why we're a bottom-5 organization for more than a decade. It's the excuse making and low expectations.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on September 02, 2024, 06:36:01 AMThis is why we're a bottom-5 organization for more than a decade. It's the excuse making and low expectations.
The excuse making for the Giants is world class. See what people outside the organization think who have no skin in the Giants game. Those within, and especially the lifers, can't see the problems clearly.
100% about the excuse-making and the overrating of our own players and generally lower bar. Because we have been so bad now for so long, for many fans a season like 2022 is a big success, both for the team and for Jones. If we repeat that type of year in 2024, the calls to keep Jones and build around him long term will be loud.
I am a big fan of good process. I will confess that whenever I hear a fan talk about "excuses" when it comes to evaluating a QB (usually Daniel Jones), I can't help but feel that the speaker doesn't use the good process to evaluate a quarterback. I think it is or is close to a fact that a QB's performance is significantly impacted by the three pillars of support- coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.
To dismiss consideration of a QBs support by calling it "excuses" shows me a badly flawed evaluation process.
That said, ultimately, Jones could prove not to be a franchise-caliber quarterback due to injury or lack of ability (or both). However, those who got there via the "making excuses" approach reached that conclusion by dumb luck rather than proper evaluation, at least in my opinion.
Someone needs to inform the 50 NFL coaches and executives who ranked Daniel Jones in the 4th tier of QBs that instead of being objective observers, they suffer from this (fictitious) disease. I'm sure they will be shocked and revisit their evaluation, which was assuredly based off just the 6 abysmal 2023 games and not the balance of his career.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 09:58:22 AMSomeone needs to inform the 50 NFL coaches and executives who ranked Daniel Jones in the 4th tier of QBs that instead of being objective observers, they suffer from this (fictitious) disease. I'm sure they will be shocked and revisit their evaluation, which was assuredly based off just the 6 abysmal 2023 games and not the balance of his career.
5.5 games. He was fantastic in the second half of the Cards game.
Credit, where credit is due.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 10:05:16 AM5.5 games. He was fantastic in the second half of the Cards game.
Credit, where credit is due.
They probably ignored that given they have DJDS. As we know, the only objective observers of Daniel Jones are those who continually support him and attack any criticism as invalid--anyone perpetrating an iota of that criticism are ignorant haters afflicted with the terrible DJDS.
The derangement is in thinking it's a fan's job to evaluate the QB, the system, or the surrounding players and coaches. It's the organization that makes excuses for results going on a generation that have turned the Giants into the Jets. Some people may enjoy being lied to year after year, while others take the results at face value.
Imagine thinking you don't know who a 6th year QB is. That's where the Giants are as an organization and why they're stuck in this endless loop where mediocrity is a best case scenario.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 08:39:56 AMI am a big fan of good process. I will confess that whenever I hear a fan talk about "excuses" when it comes to evaluating a QB (usually Daniel Jones), I can't help but feel that the speaker doesn't use the good process to evaluate a quarterback. I think it is or is close to a fact that a QB's performance is significantly impacted by the three pillars of support- coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.
To dismiss consideration of a QBs support by calling it "excuses" shows me a badly flawed evaluation process.
That said, ultimately, Jones could prove not to be a franchise-caliber quarterback due to injury or lack of ability (or both). However, those who got there via the "making excuses" approach reached that conclusion by dumb luck rather than proper evaluation, at least in my opinion.
Mighty,
This is a good and reasonable approach.
I have also observed that some critics of DJ continue to express a statement that he hasn't been in good in six years, but this simply isn't true.
They ignore his rookie year in 2019 which produced these results in just 13 games.
61% 3027 Yards 24 TD 12 int 87.7 RTG
and in 2022
67% 3900 total yards 22 TD 5 Int 92.5 RTG 60.0 QBR
Hence, in five years of play, he has had three bad years, but two good years in my opinion.
It is because of those positive years, that it gives us fans hope, that he may be able to rebound and put up a solid year in 2024 with his added skill position players and a better offensive line.
Having a balanced and reasonable approach is key to a proper evaluation.
Let's see what transpires in 2024.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 08:39:56 AMI am a big fan of good process. I will confess that whenever I hear a fan talk about "excuses" when it comes to evaluating a QB (usually Daniel Jones), I can't help but feel that the speaker doesn't use the good process to evaluate a quarterback. I think it is or is close to a fact that a QB's performance is significantly impacted by the three pillars of support- coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.
To dismiss consideration of a QBs support by calling it "excuses" shows me a badly flawed evaluation process.
That said, ultimately, Jones could prove not to be a franchise-caliber quarterback due to injury or lack of ability (or both). However, those who got there via the "making excuses" approach reached that conclusion by dumb luck rather than proper evaluation, at least in my opinion.
It's not that anyone is dismissing the supporting cast, we're just not using it as the entirety of our analysis. The defense of Jones basically boils down to the idea that a QB is nothing beyond what is around him. You seem to want to pass off any argument against him as pure bias rather than reasoned analysis.
You can analyze the QB beyond his supporting cast and when he is having issues at the NFL level (e.g. slow processing and reading defenses) that he had at the college level, the simple answer may be that he's not that good. If Daniel Jones played for any other team, how many people currently defending him would be fine giving him a $40M AAV, even going so far as to try and pass it off as a bargain?
Quote from: sxdxca38 on September 02, 2024, 10:16:54 AMMighty,
This is a good and reasonable approach.
I have also observed that some critics of DJ continue to express a statement that he hasn't been in good in six years, but this simply isn't true.
They ignore his rookie year in 2019 which produced these results in just 13 games.
61% 3027 Yards 24 TD 12 int 87.7 RTG
and in 2022
67% 3900 total yards 22 TD 5 Int 92.5 RTG 60.0 QBR
Hence, in five years of play, he has had three bad years, but two good years in my opinion.
It is because of those positive years, that it gives us fans hope, that he may be able to rebound and put up a solid year in 2024 with his added skill position players and a better offensive line.
Having a balanced and reasonable approach is key to a proper evaluation.
Let's see what transpires in 2024.
I see this as a bit of a problem in terms of evaluation. You're more than happy to rely on the two good years of his 5 year career and basically ignore what you see as the bad years.
In 2020, he played 14 games, threw for 2,943 years (210 yards per game), and completed 62.5%, threw for 11(!) TDs and 10 Ints with a QBR of 54.0 (he rushed for 1 TD and 423 yards, fumbled 3 times, lost 2)
In 2021: he played 11 games, threw for 2,428 (220 yards per game), completed 64.3%, threw 10 TDs to 7 Ints with a 47.5 QBR. He rushed for 298 yards for 2 scores, fumbled twice and lost 1.
You've listed the 2022, so I wont repeat them, although the rushing really needs to be added on here with 708 yards and 7(!) TDs, 2 fumbles, one lost.
2023: We know the story, 909 yards in 6 games (151.5 yards per game) with two TDs and 206 yards rushing with 1 TD and 1 fumble which he recovered.
He is what he is. He puts up relatively pedestrian numbers and, in my opinion, was not worth the top-10 contract when it was offered, especially considering the holes all over the roster.
Those numbers are eating up 18.4% of the CAP, according to Over the Cap, with a hit of $47.8m
Some other relatively pedestrian numbers that you could have had.
Gardner Minshew
2023: 17 games, 3305 yards (194 yards per game), 15 TDs, 9 Ints, 59.6 QBR, 100 rushing yards, 3 TDS, 2 fumbles, 0 lost. Cap hit $8m, which jumps to $14m the following season.
2020: 9 games, 2259 yards, 251 yards per game, 16 TDs, 5 Ints, QBR 44.0, 153 yards rushing, 1 TD, 1 fumble, 0 lost
2019: 14 games, 3271 yards (233 yards per game), 21 TDs, 6 Ints, 44.6 QBR, 344 yards rushing, 0 TDs, 3 fumbles, 2 lost.
Total career (ignoring backup years in Philly), 40 games, 8,835 yards (220 yards per game), 52 TDs, 20 Ints, 49.4 QBR, 597 rushing, 4 rushing TDs, 5 fumbles, 2 lost.
In comparison, Jones has 60 games, 12,512 yards (208 yards per game), 62 TDs, 40 Ints, 1,914 rushing, 13 TDs, 14 fumbles with 7 lost. Are these discernibly better numbers than Minshew when you take into the cost of each contract?
Look at Baker Mayfield, prior to last season. People on this board never expected him to have the season he had nor parlay that into a big deal. But before his debut season in Tampa, so at the same time as Jones signed his deal his career was:
72 Games over 5 seasons, 16,288 yards (226 yards per game), 102 TDs, 64 Ints, with 660 yards rushing, 6 TDs, 15 fumbles, 3 lost. On the basis of this career, Mayfield signed a $4m deal with the Bucs with a cap hit of $2.3mil.
Those are just two contracts that were signed within the last 2 seasons. There could be others.
My point, if you got this far is that there are bridge QBs around. You do not have to issue a top-10 contract for numbers that be near-replicated by other pedestrian QBs. Granted, he is a far superior rusher than those two listed, and that is to his absolute credit.
Overall, this is just my opinion; perhaps I'll be called a 'hater' or 'unreasonable' or not being able to 'evaluate' the position, but my work is based on facts and figures.
You can disagree with the broad findings if you wish, but is it he really proven to be any better than those cheaper guys? They exist out there, and fair play to Mayfield for turning in an excellent season last year – I fully expect that contract to be an albatross as well.
If someone else wants to run numbers on other pedestrian QBs, the methodology used was to examine ESPN career stats and get the financials from Over the Cap.
You really can't take in account his rookie year if year 2 and 3 were better
They didn't have tape on him
If he regressed in year 2 and 3
That just means D Jones didn't adjust to what the defenses was doing
Quote from: jgrangers2 on September 02, 2024, 10:59:45 AMIt's not that anyone is dismissing the supporting cast, we're just not using it as the entirety of our analysis. The defense of Jones basically boils down to the idea that a QB is nothing beyond what is around him. You seem to want to pass off any argument against him as pure bias rather than reasoned analysis.
You can analyze the QB beyond his supporting cast and when he is having issues at the NFL level (e.g. slow processing and reading defenses) that he had at the college level, the simple answer may be that he's not that good. If Daniel Jones played for any other team, how many people currently defending him would be fine giving him a $40M AAV, even going so far as to try and pass it off as a bargain?
There are things to unpack, but I think the part in bold is the most important to address. You can evaluate a QB beyond his supporting cast, like you can evaluate a college QB and project what they will do in the NFL. At best, such evaluations are an inexact science. As for the particular aspects you mention, those are ones that many (except for Greg Cosell, who doesn't make such claims) outside the NFL film grinders claim to be able to determine, but the reality is they really can't, not with any degree of certainty. How fast a QB appears to be processing is dependent on both schemes and the talent of the receivers he is throwing to. If your first read is Benny Fowler (who isn't open), then your second read is to Kenny Golladay (who isn't open), and your third read is to CJ Board (who isn't open), and DJ is forced to check it down to Barkley (who drops the ball), he isn't going to appear to be all that quick in terms of processing. Now, if he looks to his first read Nabers (and he is open) and he throws it at his open man, he is going to appear to be processing quickly. As for reading defenses, there is no indication that those in the building believe that DJ has an issue with that aspect of the game. Those on the outside looking in are really not being honest if they claim they know exactly what is happening as many don't know the play, they don't know the design of how it should be run, and all of them don't know what DJ was instructed to do by his coaches.
So, in the end, those who dismiss the supporting pillars (which can be reasonably determined by those outside 1925 Giants Way) shouldn't be dismissed as "making excuses." Those pillars greatly impact production. How often do you hear DJ's detractors cite stats (while usually ignoring his contributions via his legs) even though stats will be dependent on a QB's support?
As for his middle-of-the-road salary, I am not sure what the point is. I mean, if a quarterback really stinks, I have never heard anyone say, "It's okay; our quarterback stinks, and he isn't being paid much money."
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 12:48:13 PMThere are things to unpack, but I think the part in bold is the most important to address. You can evaluate a QB beyond his supporting cast, like you can evaluate a college QB and project what they will do in the NFL. At best, such evaluations are an inexact science. As for the particular aspects you mention, those are ones that many (except for Greg Cosell, who doesn't make such claims) outside the NFL film grinders claim to be able to determine, but the reality is they really can't, not with any degree of certainty. How fast a QB appears to be processing is dependent on both schemes and the talent of the receivers he is throwing to. If your first read is Benny Fowler (who isn't open), then your second read is to Kenny Golladay (who isn't open), and your third read is to CJ Board (who isn't open), and DJ is forced to check it down to Barkley (who drops the ball), he isn't going to appear to be all that quick in terms of processing. Now, if he looks to his first read Nabers (and he is open) and he throws it at his open man, he is going to appear to be processing quickly. As for reading defenses, there is no indication that those in the building believe that DJ has an issue with that aspect of the game. Those on the outside looking in are really not being honest if they claim they know exactly what is happening as many don't know the play, they don't know the design of how it should be run, and all of them don't know what DJ was instructed to do by his coaches.
So, in the end, those who dismiss the supporting pillars (which can be reasonably determined by those outside 1925 Giants Way) shouldn't be dismissed as "making excuses." Those pillars greatly impact production. How often do you hear DJ's detractors cite stats (while usually ignoring his contributions via his legs) even though stats will be dependent on a QB's support?
As for his middle-of-the-road salary, I am not sure what the point is. I mean, if a quarterback really stinks, I have never heard anyone say, "It's okay; our quarterback stinks, and he isn't being paid much money."
It's pretty simple, you can get very similar production elsewhere, for far cheaper, who acts a bridge QB until you get your one.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 01:13:49 PMIt's pretty simple, you can get very similar production elsewhere, for far cheaper, who acts a bridge QB until you get your one.
I like to refer to this claim as the Mike Glennon argument. Mike Glennon was considered a solid NFL backup until he was forced to play on the same conditions as DJ. Things got pretty bad. That's essentially what would happen when you put any of those, "Well, you could get this QB for so much less," in the same conditions as DJ.
I am sure there will be those who will try and counter what I said by pointing to 2023, only to do that, one needs to ignore the fact that both the pass protection and the receivers (one rookie improved, and one who was coming back from an ACL improved) improved as the season went on, giving DJ's backups much better conditions to work with.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 01:18:09 PMI like to refer to this claim as the Mike Glennon argument. Mike Glennon was considered a solid NFL backup until he was forced to play on the same conditions as DJ. Things got pretty bad. That's essentially what would happen when you put any of those, "Well, you could get this QB for so much less," in the same conditions as DJ.
I am sure there will be those who will try and counter what I said by pointing to 2023, only to do that, one needs to ignore the fact that both the pass protection and the receivers (one rookie improved, and one who was coming back from an ACL improved) improved as the season went on, giving DJ's backups much better conditions to work with.
You'll note I didn't suggest Glennon.
Either way, it's circular. I spent 25 mins on a respectful post and it's not even properly engaged with.
If you can't see the point being raised and you and you don't think there was an alternative so be it. The Giants obviously happy with the situation otherwise there wouldn't have the active pursuit of the 3rd pick in the draft. So at least they, and their professional evaluators, can see the issue.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 08:39:56 AMJones could prove not to be a franchise-caliber quarterback due to injury or lack of ability (or both). However, those who got there via the "making excuses" approach reached that conclusion by dumb luck rather than proper evaluation, at least in my opinion.
Rich: IMO, the odds now make it likely Jones will be proven ultimately to NOT be a franchise QB. I too have him on my "now or never" list.
I agree with your point (reproduced above). I will attempt to offer the inverse of that thought, because I believe it to be equally true...
If Jones fails to become a franchise QB, that result would NOT be evidence that fans who crapped their pants (starting the day he was drafted) ever engaged in an appropriate evaluation process. Personally, I always try to keep in mind that we fans had (and still have) a lot less to lose than the professionals who took a shot on Jones (and who are, for whatever reason, still managing to keep the faith). If by some miracle Jones should succeed, I'll be here (not for myself but rather for those who drafted him and stuck with him until now) to "collect" substantial recompense on their behalf.
Bob
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 10:09:49 AMThey probably ignored that given they have DJDS. As we know, the only objective observers of Daniel Jones are those who continually support him and attack any criticism as invalid--anyone perpetrating an iota of that criticism are ignorant haters afflicted with the terrible DJDS.
H-T: Sarcasm, of course, but not without a valid point.
The topic of Daniel Jones is a lot like a typical political issue, in which there is a vast (mostly silent) majority that is caught "in the middle," flanked by two extreme elements tossing grenades at each other.
The "not-unexpected" result of such an event is usually that most of the carnage from the explosions falls on the fans situated between the two combatants.
Bob
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 01:25:12 PMYou'll note I didn't suggest Glennon.
Either way, it's circular. I spent 25 mins on a respectful post and it's not even properly engaged with.
If you can't see the point being raised and you and you don't think there was an alternative so be it. The Giants obviously happy with the situation otherwise there wouldn't have the active pursuit of the 3rd pick in the draft. So at least they, and their professional evaluators, can see the issue.
It took you 25 minutes to post one sentence (the post I was responding to was you responding to me with a single sentence)?
Oddly enough while you were accusing me of not being able to see a point, you seemed to completely miss my point that a QB producing with better support pillars, and being paid less, will likely not play as well when he is forced into the terrible playing conditions DJ has had to deal with for most of his NFL (and college) career.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 02, 2024, 01:44:47 PMIt took you 25 minutes to post one sentence (the post I was responding to was you responding to me with a single sentence)?
Oddly enough while you were accusing me of not being able to see a point, you seemed to completely miss my point that a QB producing with better support pillars, and being paid less, will likely not play as well when he is forced into the terrible playing conditions DJ has had to deal with for most of his NFL (and college) career.
I'm sure you're well aware of what post it was.
Quote from: y_so_blu on September 01, 2024, 01:31:06 PMEvery year we try to build around him, and every year (excluding the unicorn run in '22) it fails. So yeah, people do tend to draw conclusions based on actual results rather than excuses. They're funny that way.
Insisting that "Daniel Jones might still be the answer, you don't knooooooow" is just Stockholm Syndrome at this point. Grade-A teammate and human being, though.
Who have they had in the past few years that has left and shined somewhere else? Which receiver has gone somewhere and taken off that we could say was being held back by Daniel Jones and the Giants offense?
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 01:46:45 PMI'm sure you're well aware of what post it was.
Are you referring to your discussion with sxdxca38?
That wasn't a response to me (it was specifically responding to another member), what I said, or my name mentioned.
I will note that quite a bit of production statistics were quoted. I did address how the support pillars greatly impact production stats. I will confess I only glanced over the post. As I mentioned, it wasn't directed at me, and frankly, I have had my fill of the stats-based arguments. Far too often I see stats brought up to support a position one has already held, rather than a quality statistical study to try and learn something. It's not that I am accusing you of such actions; as I have already said, I didn't properly read your post. I am simply explaining why I didn't read it.
The only excuses I see are the excuses for the horrendous OL and the completely inadequate receivers with which he has to subsist up to this point. Every time I hear the excuse charge I just chalk it up to a lack of understanding of context. If you want a good comparable for DJ you need look no farther than Eli's dad.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 02, 2024, 02:59:59 PMThe only excuses I see are the excuses for the horrendous OL and the completely inadequate receivers with which he has to subsist up to this point. Every time I hear the excuse charge I just chalk it up to a lack of understanding of context. If you want a good comparable for DJ you need look no farther than Eli's dad.
And everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the
positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?
It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?
It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.
Very well said.
The above, plus the fact that it has simply grown tiresome to talk about Daniel Jones (even without the snarky, condescending retorts you get from the same three or four people here anytime you express any opinion that isn't identical to theirs), is why I get much less involved in these types of back-and-forths than I have in past years.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on September 02, 2024, 03:08:27 PMAnd everytime I see a rabid defense of DJ dressed up in pseudo-intellectualism that conveniently dismisses and demeans opposing opinions, I wonder: what are we allowed to have opinions on without being told we're just being ignorant? Hell, given the way I'm told that basically NOTHING in Jones' career can be used as evidence of what he is as a player--well, except the positive stuff, of course--it begs the question what can even be known?
It's absurd to me. It becomes worthless to try and discuss things like this because my position will be taken, distorted into something else, dismissed summarily, and it's simply not worth the time to argue. I accept people have different opinions. I don't dismiss people as ignorant because it makes my argument easier.
As it relates to QB analysis/predications, the term "pseudo-intellectualism" is spot on. The track record of those three of four individuals inserting intellectual superiority (as it relates to football) have been lackluster. Thus, I don't take thier bias claims and/or digs at other fans' football acumen seriously. Its akin to a gambler in debt giving finical advice to a hedge fund manager worth millions of dollars. It's amusing and gives me a chuckle.
Someone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.
What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.
Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.
What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.
Well said, Lenn. I would just add there's a vast difference between the optimism expressed by wonderful posters like
@Bob In PA and
@Jolly Blue Giant, and those who constantly tell others they're bias and/or engage in flawed Analysis, while simultaneously delivering impressively inaccurate analysis and predictions themselves. Football is inconsequential; so, being right or wrong is immaterial. However, if you're perpetually wrong, perhaps avoid challenging other posters' football acumen...just my 2 cents to add to your well articulated post, Lenn.
Does it really matter at this point. He either succeeds or fails, we'll know one way or another this coming offseason. People are going to believe what they want and this dance always goes nowhere because everyone is entrenched in their beliefs one way or another.
Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.
What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.
I fully understand being an irrational homer. Being a sports fan is an inherently irrational endeavor. But some take it to ridiculous levels, delving into odd conspiracies where the media has ganged up to convince you that Daniel Jones is terrible. At the end of the day, none of us would be scared if he was the opposing QB and none of us would want to actively pursue him as anything more than a backup if he was on another team and became a free agent tomorrow.
Quote from: LennG on September 02, 2024, 05:36:30 PMSomeone mentioned this a page or so back and it really related to my thinking and maybe some others.
What if Daniel Jones was the QB, of say Washington? Would we be scared of him when we played them? would we never be worried about him beating us? or would we think WOW another poor QB and we should beat them handily?
I'm sorry if the people who see Jones as a savior in waiting when we give him everything any middle-of-the-road QB might want to help them be better. Just because he is the Giants QB and we are homers, some just refuse to see his faults as we would if he were QBing any other team. His faults are his faults and nothing can be done about them, no matter who surrounds him. If he were the QB of any other team we would see him and think of him as a lower-ranked QB who should never beat us.
What if Washington had our last year's OL? Would we be scared of them?
I have a huge problem with this thread as I've had with dozens of other Jones threads in the past few weeks. In a short few weeks, we should know alot more about Jones. He's got a good group of receivers maybe better. He has a decent OL maybe better. He has a really good pkaycaller maybe better. And he's healthy. Why dont we just wait a little while?
Last year Jones made a bad line worse and missed critical opportunities to buffer against their incompetence.
when just assessing based on what he controls, he was bad. Granted the line was much worse.
It is not safe to assume just fixing the line fixes Jones.
The front office told the whole world they wanted to replace him but not at any cost.
Jones gets one more year and that is where it sits.
There was an interesting dynamic. The thread went from an intellectual (admittedly, this level of discussion angered some fans here) and facts-based discussion of Daniel Jones (albeit with Bob's tongue-in-cheek but slightly inflammatory title) to a page of football-free posts with the Jones critics bashing the people who don't share their negative views on DJ with the same vigor as they do our starting quarterback.
Quote from: babywhales on September 03, 2024, 07:52:03 AMLast year Jones made a bad line worse and missed critical opportunities to buffer against their incompetence.
when just assessing based on what he controls, he was bad. Granted the line was much worse.
It is not safe to assume just fixing the line fixes Jones.
The front office told the whole world they wanted to replace him but not at any cost.
Jones gets one more year and that is where it sits.
Chris,
To offset the terrible blocking of an O-line, a quarterback needs to have open receivers to pass to. The Giants had PFF's 32nd-ranked receiver group (despite Robinson improving the farther removed from the ACL and Hyatt playing through his rookie season improving). So the QB really doesn't have anything to work with to offset missed or multiple missed blocks when your receivers are not getting open either.
That said, I get where you are coming from. After a few games getting the crap kicked out of him, and especially when he came back from the neck injury, DJ looked a bit gun-shy. For me, that's one of the biggest concerns for DJ this season. I think the O-line is improved, so DJ shouldn't be battered like last season. However, will there be lasting effects from what he endured last season? How will DJ hold up to pressure, and will he be able to reset his internal clock?
Why is Daniel Jones the beneficiary of this then? So we have to put up with lousy football; pay a guy 40 mil a year because "he had a bad o-line and Pat Mahomes would not have done anything either blah blah." So what?
Why not Mike Glennon? Heck let's call Mike Glennon and tell him to un-retire so we can see what he could do if put in a perfect situation with a hall of fame TE ; a Hall of fame WR; and a Hall of fame coach.
Eli Manning didn't get this did he? Was that a good o-line? Was Erick Flowers a good tackle?
Heck why not hope and pray Tommy DeVito is Vinny Testeverde. I mean how do you know?
The fact is Danile Jones is just not a good QB. He is not worth anywhere near that salary and in a cap league that is critically important.
You could have drafted Bo Nix. Heck even could have signed Jake Browning for a fraction of the cost and is arguably a better QB.
This whole idea that you were in the QB market but, only if a generation talent falls into your lap when you're picking not in the top 3 is voodoo GMing. it's also a cop out. It is really an excuse to stick it out with Jones more. It's like saying I'll buy a new car if I win the lotto and then will buy a Mercedes otherwise, I'll stick it out with my 300,000 mile 20-year-old clunker. Like there is not a million option in between.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 08:13:01 AMChris,
To offset the terrible blocking of an O-line, a quarterback needs to have open receivers to pass to. The Giants had PFF's 32nd-ranked receiver group (despite Robinson improving the farther removed from the ACL and Hyatt playing through his rookie season improving). So the QB really doesn't have anything to work with to offset missed or multiple missed blocks when your receivers are not getting open either.
That said, I get where you are coming from. After a few games getting the crap kicked out of him, and especially when he came back from the neck injury, DJ looked a bit gun-shy. For me, that's one of the biggest concerns for DJ this season. I think the O-line is improved, so DJ shouldn't be battered like last season. However, will there be lasting effects from what he endured last season? How will DJ hold up to pressure, and will he be able to reset his internal clock?
I agree, however it is not that simple.
Example
Last season, Game 1 vs Dallas
7 sacks allowed
Unfortunately 3 those sacks were directly tied to Jones's shortcomings presnap.
He didn't do anything to help that line. 4 sacks would have been bad, no doubt. 7 is horrible- 3 of them were on Jones.
Failure to identify the hot read and shift protection to name two
And that is on him. Those mistakes happen before the ball is snapped.
Jones made a bad line worse.
OF course he can help his line post snap but that would account for the pressure so ill keep it to things that happen prior to the snap / pressure on Jones.
Quote from: babywhales on September 03, 2024, 03:45:11 PMI agree, however it is not that simple.
Example
Last season, Game 1 vs Dallas
7 sacks allowed
Unfortunately 3 those sacks were directly tied to Jones's shortcomings presnap.
He didn't do anything to help that line. 4 sacks would have been bad, no doubt. 7 is horrible- 3 of them were on Jones.
Failure to identify the hot read and shift protection to name two
And that is on him. Those mistakes happen before the ball is snapped.
Jones made a bad line worse.
OF course he can help his line post snap but that would account for the pressure so ill keep it to things that happen prior to the snap / pressure on Jones.
Chris,
From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 04:49:36 PMChris,
From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.
Even a rookie, in his first game?
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 03, 2024, 06:03:59 PMEven a rookie, in his first game?
Yes, that is what I heard.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 06:17:55 PMYes, that is what I heard.
Wow. Perhaps the offensive captains/vet leaders ought to have gone to the coaching staff and suggest a change (if they couldn't see the issue for themselves).
Does it say anything about Daniel Jones if he in fact is not in charge of setting protections? Especially in favor of a rookie?
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 03, 2024, 07:17:57 PMWow. Perhaps the offensive captains/vet leaders ought to have gone to the coaching staff and suggest a change (if they couldn't see the issue for themselves).
The concept was that to win the starting center job you had to be able to make the protection calls.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on September 03, 2024, 07:27:35 PMDoes it say anything about Daniel Jones if he in fact is not in charge of setting protections? Especially in favor of a rookie?
Not really, it's usually just a coaching preference
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 08:05:10 AMThere was an interesting dynamic. The thread went from an intellectual (admittedly, this level of discussion angered some fans here) and facts-based discussion of Daniel Jones (albeit with Bob's tongue-in-cheek but slightly inflammatory title) to a page of football-free posts with the Jones critics bashing the people who don't share their negative views on DJ with the same vigor as they do our starting quarterback.
In this I agree
I refuse to believe a starting QB in his 5th year in the NFL -- playing on the same team -- all of those years -- is not on the hook for pass protections.
I can maybe see if it is a rookie or back-up that hardly plays and/or inserted in the middle of a game, but a vet QB doesn't help with pass protection assignments? That just sounds wrong to me.
Even when Colt McCoy was the back-up QB ; I heard him say on nearly every down "We're Good, We're good" in obvious refence to blocking assignments in place.
It is also no coincidence that Daniel Jones does not seem to be adept at reading defenses pre and post snap ; checking out of plays etc.
Also did I not see a Tyrod Taylor sling a ball in like 2 seconds playing in that same o-line?
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 03, 2024, 04:49:36 PMChris,
From what I heard, In the Giants system, the center makes the protection calls.
Not sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap.
Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good.
Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB
week 2- AZ sacked 3 times . I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake. 30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault.
Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault
Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones .
After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.
The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse.
That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey
Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 09:55:35 AMNot sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap.
Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good.
Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB
week 2- AZ sacked 3 times . I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake. 30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault.
Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault
Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones .
After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.
The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse.
That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey
Thank you for the time it took for the number crunching here. I knew and have repeated the Seattle stats from the PFF podcast but didn't know the others. Were they from PFF or just your opinion of watching the game?
The answer to that doesn't matter - this is only a discussion board after all - but it's been my suspicion that Jones would have a degree of culpability for the sacks based on the Seahawks game.
I have posted a study in the past that clearly indicates the QB is equal to, or more culpable for sacks than the Oline. DJ get's sacked a lot because the Oline is terrible AND he's equally bad at reading defenses.
Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 09:55:35 AMNot sure if true, it would be odd, but I will not rule it out, the bottom line is Jones struggles to read the line of scrimmage presnap.
Holds on to the ball with open receivers , runs out of bounds behind the line on balls that should have been thrown out of bounds, can not read or adapt to overflow Rushers, takes sacks from misreading defenses ex. not limited to looking for hot read but identified wrong receiver/wrong side of field, etc.. I know you watch the All22 - its all right there and the film is not good.
Week 1 - Dallas 7 sacks - 3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line. 42% on the QB
week 2- AZ sacked 3 times . I do not recall the specifics so I will simply say the were not Jones fault for argument sake. 30 % of the sacks on the season the QB's fault.
Week 3 - SF 2 sacks . Same as above. 25% of the sacks on the season the QB's fault
Week 4 - Seattle - 10 sacks. 5 were on Jones .
After week 4 8 of 22 sacks, 36% were on the QB.
The line was crap no doubt, but Jones didn't do them any favors and made a bad line worse.
That needs to change in 2024/25 for him to have any chance at seeing 2025/26 in a Giants jersey
Chris,
Where did you get these numbers?
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 11:26:05 AMChris,
Where did you get these numbers?
ITs four games and I gave a free pass on 2 of them, as well as, absolving Jones of making protection adjustments
Watch the film,
Watch the film breakdowns,
Some things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc. others are not.
What I am speaking of I have given specific examples of mistakes and you will recognize those 16 plays, as you will also see the plays that are clearly the O Lines fault.
Quote from: babywhales on September 06, 2024, 12:41:50 PMITs four games and I gave a free pass on 2 of them, as well as, absolving Jones of making protection adjustments
Watch the film,
Watch the film breakdowns,
Some things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc. others are not.
What I am speaking of I have given specific examples of mistakes and you will recognize those 16 plays, as you will also see the plays that are clearly the O Lines fault.
In the first game, you said:
Quote3 were on jones's failures presnap at the line.
What specifically are you referencing? Are you assuming the center is making the line calls or DJ?
The other thing I am curious about is this comment:
QuoteSome things in film are truly unknowns, such as but not limited to play design, Oline assignments, read progressions, etc.
Those are some critical factors needed to assign blame accurately. How much certainty do you have in the statistics you cited?
Not for nothin' but Dabes 'officially' taking over the play-calling and then getting maybe the best WR in the draft in Nabers must have been up many a night cooking up schemes that will show the world this team can score points.
I mean Joshie didn't look good until year 3 when they got Diggs as their true #1 either and people were questioning just how good Allen was. Guess who Josh's OC was at that time?
I really hope it's something special to behold because the last Giants team that was really good at scoring points was probably all the way back in 2015 TC's last year before Mac-A-doodle took over the offense entirely instead of running Coughlin's game-plan.
It's what happens in threads like this that makes my criteria for a succesful season is one that, for good or bad, provides us clarity about DJ. Which means that the OL and WRs play well and we see how he does with his first cast of competent teammates in the offense. If he fails despite the support I'll be the first one to throw him under the bus. If he succeeds I'll be happy that our draft and CAP resources can be devoted to building out the rest of the team so that the Giants can be not only good, but dominant.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on September 06, 2024, 02:30:28 PMIt's what happens in threads like this that makes my criteria for a succesful season is one that, for good or bad, provides us clarity about DJ. Which means that the OL and WRs play well and we see how he does with his first cast of competent teammates in the offense. If he fails despite the support I'll be the first one to throw him under the bus. If he succeeds I'll be happy that our draft and CAP resources can be devoted to building out the rest of the team so that the Giants can be not only good, but dominant.
I agree 100%; give the man an NFL-caliber support system and see what he can do. That should (or hopefully) provide clarity for all.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 02:32:00 PMI agree 100%; give the man an NFL-caliber support system and see what he can do. That should (or hopefully) provide clarity for all.
Speaking of this I LOVE this answer from the ball coach. :ok:
Q: Are you excited to actually have a real game and see what your team actually is?
BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah. Again, (we) put (in) a lot of hard work. Guys have done everything they could possibly do through OTAs, through training camp. Coaches spent a lot of time preparing for opening game. The unique thing about the opening game is you have 17 games plus additional information to look at. There's information overload at times as a coach when you're looking at things. Yesterday, with the day off, (we) tightened things up, coaching staff wise, minimized some of the things to make sure that we can go out there and play fast, know what to do and play physical. That's what really, I'd say, the first few weeks are in the National Football League. We've done everything we possibly can do. We'll have a good day today. Friday, situational football. Go out there and try to compete and play as tough, physical, and smart football as we can.
Sometimes THE WORST thing a coach can do is overcomplicate things so the players don't execute well 'cuz they way too spread thin or diversified
Heck, Seen it myself when I coached all different types of Sports
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on September 06, 2024, 02:47:52 PMSpeaking of this I LOVE this answer from the ball coach. :ok:
Q: Are you excited to actually have a real game and see what your team actually is?
BRIAN DABOLL: Yeah. Again, (we) put (in) a lot of hard work. Guys have done everything they could possibly do through OTAs, through training camp. Coaches spent a lot of time preparing for opening game. The unique thing about the opening game is you have 17 games plus additional information to look at. There's information overload at times as a coach when you're looking at things. Yesterday, with the day off, (we) tightened things up, coaching staff wise, minimized some of the things to make sure that we can go out there and play fast, know what to do and play physical. That's what really, I'd say, the first few weeks are in the National Football League. We've done everything we possibly can do. We'll have a good day today. Friday, situational football. Go out there and try to compete and play as tough, physical, and smart football as we can.
Sometimes THE WORST thing a coach can do is overcomplicate things so the players don't execute well 'cuz they way too spread thin or diversified
Heck, Seen it myself when I coached all different types of Sports
The Giants have an offensive line with three new starters: a new RB, a new TE (rookie), and a new number-one WR (a rookie). With that in mind, I agree simpler is better. The same can be said of the defense with new DC, scheme, and 3 or 4 starters.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 02:51:13 PMThe Giants have an offensive line with three new starters: a new RB, a new TE (rookie), and a new number-one WR (a rookie). With that in mind, I agree simpler is better. The same can be said of the defense with new DC, scheme, and 3 or 4 starters.
Focus on a specific set of plays in practice, get them down and execute. Preseason is about figuring out what you do best and then focusing on that.
In the case of new players or a new scheme or both, paring it down even more to focus on what you can digest without sacrificing highest level of execution is important too!
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 02, 2024, 11:06:38 AMI see this as a bit of a problem in terms of evaluation. You're more than happy to rely on the two good years of his 5 year career and basically ignore what you see as the bad years.
In 2020, he played 14 games, threw for 2,943 years (210 yards per game), and completed 62.5%, threw for 11(!) TDs and 10 Ints with a QBR of 54.0 (he rushed for 1 TD and 423 yards, fumbled 3 times, lost 2)
In 2021: he played 11 games, threw for 2,428 (220 yards per game), completed 64.3%, threw 10 TDs to 7 Ints with a 47.5 QBR. He rushed for 298 yards for 2 scores, fumbled twice and lost 1.
You've listed the 2022, so I wont repeat them, although the rushing really needs to be added on here with 708 yards and 7(!) TDs, 2 fumbles, one lost.
2023: We know the story, 909 yards in 6 games (151.5 yards per game) with two TDs and 206 yards rushing with 1 TD and 1 fumble which he recovered.
He is what he is. He puts up relatively pedestrian numbers and, in my opinion, was not worth the top-10 contract when it was offered, especially considering the holes all over the roster.
Those numbers are eating up 18.4% of the CAP, according to Over the Cap, with a hit of $47.8m
Some other relatively pedestrian numbers that you could have had.
Gardner Minshew
2023: 17 games, 3305 yards (194 yards per game), 15 TDs, 9 Ints, 59.6 QBR, 100 rushing yards, 3 TDS, 2 fumbles, 0 lost. Cap hit $8m, which jumps to $14m the following season.
2020: 9 games, 2259 yards, 251 yards per game, 16 TDs, 5 Ints, QBR 44.0, 153 yards rushing, 1 TD, 1 fumble, 0 lost
2019: 14 games, 3271 yards (233 yards per game), 21 TDs, 6 Ints, 44.6 QBR, 344 yards rushing, 0 TDs, 3 fumbles, 2 lost.
Total career (ignoring backup years in Philly), 40 games, 8,835 yards (220 yards per game), 52 TDs, 20 Ints, 49.4 QBR, 597 rushing, 4 rushing TDs, 5 fumbles, 2 lost.
In comparison, Jones has 60 games, 12,512 yards (208 yards per game), 62 TDs, 40 Ints, 1,914 rushing, 13 TDs, 14 fumbles with 7 lost. Are these discernibly better numbers than Minshew when you take into the cost of each contract?
Look at Baker Mayfield, prior to last season. People on this board never expected him to have the season he had nor parlay that into a big deal. But before his debut season in Tampa, so at the same time as Jones signed his deal his career was:
72 Games over 5 seasons, 16,288 yards (226 yards per game), 102 TDs, 64 Ints, with 660 yards rushing, 6 TDs, 15 fumbles, 3 lost. On the basis of this career, Mayfield signed a $4m deal with the Bucs with a cap hit of $2.3mil.
Those are just two contracts that were signed within the last 2 seasons. There could be others.
My point, if you got this far is that there are bridge QBs around. You do not have to issue a top-10 contract for numbers that be near-replicated by other pedestrian QBs. Granted, he is a far superior rusher than those two listed, and that is to his absolute credit.
Overall, this is just my opinion; perhaps I'll be called a 'hater' or 'unreasonable' or not being able to 'evaluate' the position, but my work is based on facts and figures.
You can disagree with the broad findings if you wish, but is it he really proven to be any better than those cheaper guys? They exist out there, and fair play to Mayfield for turning in an excellent season last year – I fully expect that contract to be an albatross as well.
If someone else wants to run numbers on other pedestrian QBs, the methodology used was to examine ESPN career stats and get the financials from Over the Cap.
Ed,
I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 07:50:11 PMEd,
I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?
Thank you,
@MightyGiants.
To be honest, I didn't give it to much credence. But I went with the Jags having nobody you would call elite in terms of receiving targets.
I gave no thought to line or coaching support. Not in an attempt to be dishonest, I just didn't consider anything outside the numbers.
I do appreciate the reply, thank you.
Quote from: MightyGiants on September 06, 2024, 07:50:11 PMEd,
I appreciate the effort you put into this post. I do have one question, though. When you compare QB production on different teams, how do you account for the different levels of support (coaching/scheme, receiving targets, protection)?
Simple. Just ask Coach Parcells.
Did the QB win the game!
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on September 06, 2024, 08:19:13 PMThank you, @MightyGiants.
To be honest, I didn't give it to much credence. But I went with the Jags having nobody you would call elite in terms of receiving targets.
I gave no thought to line or coaching support. Not in an attempt to be dishonest, I just didn't consider anything outside the numbers.
I do appreciate the reply, thank you.
FWIW, in 2023 the Colts had the #3 ranking OL.
Jordan Love looked a lot like Daniel Jones last night as his OL struggled at times. He missed open guys. Under/over threw and threw behind guys who were open. Held the ball too long. Got sacked/took hits. Got hurt. He was still helped by a big play WR in Jaylen Reed who got open, made guys miss and found the EZ. That is what we hope Nabers can do.
Quote from: londonblue on September 07, 2024, 07:29:49 AMJordan Love looked a lot like Daniel Jones last night as his OL struggled at times. He missed open guys. Under/over threw and threw behind guys who were open. Held the ball too long. Got sacked/took hits. Got hurt. He was still helped by a big play WR in Jaylen Reed who got open, made guys miss and found the EZ. That is what we hope Nabers can do.
I agree their O line looked bad. Despite all that, Love still had a respectable enough game. 260 yards (7.6 YPA), 2 TDs, 1 INT, and that's with not playing 60 minutes, and he was up against a Vic Fangio-led D that has a ton of top shelf talent. I'm not sure how much that "looked like" Daniel Jones. If Jones has a game exactly like that against the Eagles this year, his more supportive fans will call it a big success, even in a loss.
Jaylen Reed 4/138 1 TD and he made a lot of those yards and the TD with his post catch play. You could take 60-80 yards, significant YPA and a TD off Love without Reed's value add. This help to the QB is what we hope Nabers can do for DJ and that is my point, not a criticism of Love (though he was bang average).
Quote from: londonblue on September 07, 2024, 10:20:50 AMJaylen Reed 4/138 1 TD and he made a lot of those yards and the TD with his post catch play. You could take 60-80 yards, significant YPA and a TD off Love without Reed's value add. This help to the QB is what we hope Nabers can do for DJ and that is my point, not a criticism of Love (though he was bang average).
THIs is a great point London. Our previous QB had Shockey, Plaxico, Amani, Hakeem Nicks, Victor Cruz, Steve Smith and Odell Beckham in his career. Which wide receiver has Daniel in his had that comes anywhere near that caliber? Our previous QB had Diehl, Seubert, O'Hara, Snee and McKenzie an offensive line that was near the top of the league for something like 5-6 years with maybe one guy different during those years. He had a quality OL coach.
Nabers should be a true #1 and then Wan'Dale if he stays healthy is a guy who's talent I love as a complement to a true #1. Slayton is reliable and potentially would make a great #3 and we will see with Hyatt but at minimum his speed can take the top of a defense.
I admit I wanted Maye but I am going to be in a wait and see approach because this QB does have some pretty good qualities to him that I think might come out more consistently with what we have finally assembled around him.
Quote from: Bob In PA on August 30, 2024, 06:12:59 PMThis post is for our members (and visitors) who are afflicted with JDS (Jones Derangement Syndrome).
I do it out of respect for the viewpoints of those members who are already "done" with him, hoping they can better enjoy the season (although you would rather see someone else at QB) by understanding what he was up against last year. If he's granted the grace of one final bit of "blind faith" I think more can be gotten out of this season than just "tolerating" the situation for another year.
Won't bore you with any specifics. The most important part of the link below (Schmelk's interview with Robert Mays, a truly knowledgeable pod-caster/writer employed by The Athletic) lasts ONLY FIVE MINUTES (the first five) of the long interview and IMO it will give a point of reference to anyone willing to listen with an open mind. The guys go through Jones' six games from last season and explain why no QB would have had a chance of succeeding.
Bob https://www.giants.com/video/giants-huddle-robert-mays
PS. IMO Jones was lucky to get hurt early. If he'd played all 17 games he might be dead now. /sarcasm/
So after today are we all still just deranged? This entire thread and thread title is so offensive I am questioning why I am still even here.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 08:12:07 PMSo after today are we all still just deranged? This entire thread and thread title is so offensive I am questioning why I am still even here.
We will have a definitive answer when the jones or bust crew chimes in.
I had hope. I wanted to eat crow and be proven wrong. This guy is not a major competitor. I don't mean this a knock. He doesn't have the "it" factor. I just dont see a man playing with confidence, leadership or fire.
To be fair Jones played similar to the majority of his games.
However he had a better line, better receivers , and still was inaccurate, poor line of scrimmage reads and poor in play reads of defense and his receivers
Same $hit different season
Quote from: babywhales on September 08, 2024, 08:16:42 PMTo be fair Jones played similar to the majority of his games.
However he had a better line, better receivers , and still was inaccurate, poor line of scrimmage reads and poor in play reads of defense and his receivers
Same $hit different season
He has one better receiver in Nabors. The drop off after him is steep. Robinson and Slayton need to get more separation and help their QB. I listened to the radio broadcast from 3 PM on and Bank said that the receivers were not adjusting and improvising enough.
That being said watching the Stroud vs Richardson game and wishing we had either one of them.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 08:26:23 PMHe has one better receiver in Nabors. The drop off after him is steep. Robinson and Slayton need to get more separation and help their QB. I listened to the radio broadcast from 3 PM on and Bank said that the receivers were not adjusting and improvising enough.
That being said watching the Stroud vs Richardson game and wishing we had either one of them.
As soon as they get 10 yards past the LOS, they leave Jones' field of vision. They could have 15 yards of separation and Jones would find a defender for a sack.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 08:26:23 PMHe has one better receiver in Nabors. The drop off after him is steep. Robinson and Slayton need to get more separation and help their QB. I listened to the radio broadcast from 3 PM on and Bank said that the receivers were not adjusting and improvising enough.
That being said watching the Stroud vs Richardson game and wishing we had either one of them.
Shocker that Banks blamed the receivers for Jones' disaster today.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 08:26:23 PMHe has one better receiver in Nabors. The drop off after him is steep. Robinson and Slayton need to get more separation and help their QB. I listened to the radio broadcast from 3 PM on and Bank said that the receivers were not adjusting and improvising enough.
That being said watching the Stroud vs Richardson game and wishing we had either one of them.
Not improvising enough? As if Jones can work off-platform? How delusional can you be? What game is he watching? If Jones first read isn't there, he stares an extra beat, tucks it and looks to run. No amount of improvising will help that. Sorry, but I'm tired of hearing how Banks is objective. He's a company man through and through.
Disagree about Robinson. I think he actually creates a lot of separation in the short game. There's a reason Jones targeted him 12 times. He's got very good quickness.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on September 08, 2024, 08:37:15 PMShocker that Banks blamed the receivers for Jones' disaster today.
Banks has been so impressively wrong over the last 4 years that I honestly don't know why people listen to him.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 08, 2024, 08:50:35 PMBanks has been so impressively wrong over the last 4 years that I honestly don't know why people listen to him.
Fair point
Quote from: kingm56 on September 08, 2024, 08:50:35 PMBanks has been so impressively wrong over the last 4 years that I honestly don't know why people listen to him.
He's a huge Jones apologist who goes as far as to attack fans who don't think he's a very good QB, so that gives him an audience as a number of fans share both his view on Jones and his attitude that anyone who disagrees deserves disdain and ridicule.
Quote from: kingm56 on September 08, 2024, 08:50:35 PMBanks has been so impressively wrong over the last 4 years that I honestly don't know why people listen to him.
Tiki is just as bad. The bottom line is that the former Giants just can't be objective. We fans are the same. We see the team with our own tinted glasses. And not clearly. That's why I like to get totally objective analysis of the teams. PFF is very good. And the Athletic too. No grudges. Just smart analysis.
Quote from: katkavage on September 08, 2024, 08:54:29 PMTiki is just as bad. The bottom line is that the former Giants just can't be objective. We fans are the same. We see the team with our own tinted glasses. And not clearly. That's why I like to get totally objective analysis of the teams. PFF is very good. And the Athletic too. No grudges. Just smart analysis.
I agree, Kat; I like to do the same, which is why I believe my analysis concerning DJ wasn't 'deranged', as it was shared by the majority without any connection to the Giants (i.e. impartial).
Quote from: kingm56 on September 08, 2024, 08:50:35 PMBanks has been so impressively wrong over the last 4 years that I honestly don't know why people listen to him.
Because he calls the radio broadcast. I was in a car and had no choice.
I can't watch another 16 more games like today. It's sickening. I already paid an obscene amount of $ for Eagle vs Giants tickets. I was fool enough to think this year the Giants would be competitive. What a fool I am.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 09:07:01 PMBecause he calls the radio broadcast. I was in a car and had no choice.
Fair enough; I wouldn't put too much stock in what he has to say. Most times, I listen to his analysis and see something completely different on the All-22. He's made some bold predictions concerning DJ, which have been grossly inaccurate. It appears instead of suggesting he was wrong, he's just using a transference technique.
Quote from: miss86 on September 08, 2024, 09:09:37 PMI can't watch another 16 more games like today. It's sickening. I already paid an obscene amount of $ for Eagle vs Giants tickets. I was fool enough to think this year the Giants would be competitive. What a fool I am.
There's nothing wrong with being optimistic, miss86!
I'd go in disguise to the Eagle game. It will be horrifically bad.
Quote from: expatriot on September 08, 2024, 09:54:29 PMI'd go in disguise to the Eagle game. It will be horrifically bad.
It's a home game. I would never go to Lincoln field. I guess I should've said Giants versus Eagles.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on September 08, 2024, 07:25:00 PM
Hi Doc: Good one. We didn't get the game where I live, so I had to settle for listening to the Papa/Banks broadcast. You would need to post a picture of (for example) a 1940's kid listening to an old-fashioned radio broadcast of "The Shadow" or some other horror show. Bob
Quote from: TDToomer on September 08, 2024, 08:12:07 PMSo after today are we all still just deranged? This entire thread and thread title is so offensive I am questioning why I am still even here.
If you can put up with rooting for the Giants, you can put up with reading anything... including my post. Bob
To a point I made earlier in this thread:
1. Nabers did help Jones as he was the only WR who ever found space (needs to cut out the drops)
2. It seems that he will need to be peak Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Terrell Owens combined to help Jones enough to make him OK
Quote from: londonblue on September 09, 2024, 06:53:58 AMTo a point I made earlier in this thread:
1. Nabers did help Jones as he was the only WR who ever found space (needs to cut out the drops)
2. It seems that he will need to be peak Jerry Rice, Randy Moss and Terrell Owens combined to help Jones enough to make him OK
london: Those drops will cease by game five, hopefully by game three. It's just the pressure of knowing that he will actually have to EARN the money they're paying him (and ever going to pay him). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on September 09, 2024, 06:44:43 AMIf you can put up with rooting for the Giants, you can put up with reading anything... including my post. Bob
Point being is that you are comparing the criticism of our QB by equating it with a term used by supporters of a particular ex-president anytime someone pointed out his short comings which is just an awful term to use.
Quote from: TDToomer on September 09, 2024, 09:31:18 AMPoint being is that you are comparing the criticism of our QB by equating it with a term used by supporters of a particular ex-president anytime someone pointed out his short comings which is just an awful term to use.
TD: Understood, but I want to continue to press my original point (ignoring the "wrapping paper" I used in attempting to make it). It consists of three sub-points:
(1) the fans (especially season ticket holders and people who spend a lot of good money on the Giants) deserve a lot better than what we've had to endure for the past ten years, especially during the Daniel Jones era; but
(2) there's no reason to heap on ourselves the extra discomfort and disappointment of not being able to enjoy the sport just because (for WHATEVER reason) the GM, Head Coach and Owners of the team have decided to give Jones one "final chance".
(3) IMO (and of course this is where we disagree) Jones deserved another go (so I'm guessing I agree w/Mara, who I'm certain is behind the move).
Bob