Big Blue Huddle

his face on the Flea Flicker


https://x.com/SNYGiants/status/1855682939079544897

The guy is sailing throws without a soul around him yet still makes excuses.  The bench isn't far enough away for Jones. 

Daniel Jones not seeing open receivers? Color me shocked.

Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 10, 2024, 01:54:28 PMDaniel Jones not seeing open receivers? Color me shocked.

One of the things Phil Simms talks about is how fans don't appreciate the challenge of a QB trying to see downfield when you have 6' 6" guys wrestling in front of you.  The vision isn't what you see from the booth or the TV; it's partially blocked.   You look at the play and you can see that there is a good chance DJ's view of the open receiver was blocked for the fraction of the second he needed to throw it before getting sacked.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 01:59:20 PMOne of the things Phil Simms talks about is how fans don't appreciate the challenge of a QB trying to see downfield when you have 6' 6" guys wrestling in front of you.  The vision isn't what you see from the booth or the TV; it's partially blocked.   You look at the play and you can see that there is a good chance DJ's view of the open receiver was blocked for the fraction of the second he needed to throw it before getting sacked.

Let's not forget the value guys like Madden, Manning, Brady place on "locking on recievers"...because jones clearly hurts our team when he does that. His refusal to even "work on it" in his drop back warmups (like Rodgers does) is most nauseating

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 02:23:12 PMLet's not forget the value guys like Madden, Manning, Brady place on "locking on recievers"...because jones clearly hurts our team when he does that. His refusal to even "work on it" in his drop back warmups (like Rodgers does) is most nauseating

A flea flicker is a deception play.  DJ doesn't need to "look off" a receiver when running it

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:25:01 PMA flea flicker is a deception play.  DJ doesn't need to "look off" a receiver when running it

I never said he did. I was referring to the point where I've been told here it is not as big of a thing as some announcers make it out to be. Yet simms says something and we are to accept it as the norm. Maybe he is right or maybe he isn't. I don't know.

Probably could have stopped at "couldn't see" Because it seems he can never see the open WRs.  He can see the first read just fine and he can throw it there constantly but "seeing" the coverage and "seeing " the WRs does not appear to be a skill he possesses.

Honestly I'd have preferred he just apologize to Nabers who I assume came up to him and said "you know I had a TD if you could actually throw a football right?"  Just apologize and move on.  Don't make excuses, don't blame the OL, just apologize for that and the many other TDs you've cost this young man this season.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 02:27:52 PMI never said he did. I was referring to the point where I've been told here it is not as big of a thing as some announcers make it out to be. Yet simms says something and we are to accept it as the norm. Maybe he is right or maybe he isn't. I don't know.

Actually, DJ said he couldn't see the open receivers.  I pointed out that Simms (who knows a bit about playing quarterback) said that most fans are unaware of the tall dancing men in front of quarterbacks and how that challenges quarterbacks' vision. 

Why wouldn't you believe Simms' comment about the line obstructing a QBs vision?  I have no reason to believe he was lying; it wasn't even involving a play; he wrote about it in his book, Sunday Morning Quarterback.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 10, 2024, 02:31:53 PMProbably could have stopped at "couldn't see" Because it seems he can never see the open WRs.  He can see the first read just fine and he can throw it there constantly but "seeing" the coverage and "seeing " the WRs does not appear to be a skill he possesses.

Honestly I'd have preferred he just apologize to Nabers who I assume came up to him and said "you know I had a TD if you could actually throw a football right?"  Just apologize and move on.  Don't make excuses, don't blame the OL, just apologize for that and the many other TDs you've cost this young man this season.

Only it appears his first read was open

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:32:53 PMOnly it appears his first read was open

Which makes it even worse!

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 01:59:20 PMOne of the things Phil Simms talks about is how fans don't appreciate the challenge of a QB trying to see downfield when you have 6' 6" guys wrestling in front of you.  The vision isn't what you see from the booth or the TV; it's partially blocked.  You look at the play and you can see that there is a good chance DJ's view of the open receiver was blocked for the fraction of the second he needed to throw it before getting sacked.

There is more than a fraction of a second though. His ability to look downfield doesn't start when he has the ball in his hands. It starts as Tracy is running up the middle. And I'm sorry dude, but the argument here can't be that the linemen are too big to see over. He has to be able to see that.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 10, 2024, 02:42:19 PMThere is more than a fraction of a second though. His ability to look downfield doesn't start when he has the ball in his hands. It starts as Tracy is running up the middle. And I'm sorry dude, but the argument here can't be that the linemen are too big to see over. He has to be able to see that.

Count the time from when DJ gets the ball back in his hands until he pulls the ball down due to the impending sack.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:43:14 PMCount the time from when DJ gets the ball back in his hands until he pulls the ball down due to the impending sack.

I can't believe we are even debating this issue when there is video evidence, commentator evidence, coach and QB post game evidence, and WR who are open downfield emphatically calling for the ball evidence.

But by all means let's keep the conversation going. I look forward to the positive spin and positive Jones stats this week.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 02:46:53 PMI can't believe we are even debating this issue when there is video evidence, commentator evidence, coach and QB post game evidence, and WR who are open downfield emphatically calling for the ball evidence.

But by all means let's keep the conversation going. I look forward to the positive soon and positive Jones stats this week.

The coach said it was bad coaching

The QB said he didn't see the open receivers

The receiver said there was a lot going on in front of DJ

To be frank, I don't know what you are talking about

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:51:47 PMThe coach said it was bad coaching

The QB said he didn't see the open receivers

The receiver said there was a lot going on in front of DJ

To be frank, I don't know what you are talking about

Perhaps I'm reading the whole thing wrong but it appears you are trying to minimize or justify to a degree the fact that Jones missed in and messed up the entire play and I see we will need to agree to disagree on this play is all.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 03:03:38 PMPerhaps I'm reading the whole thing wrong but it appears you are trying to minimize or justify to a degree the fact that Jones missed in and messed up the entire play and I see we will need to agree to disagree on this play is all.

There are more than enough plays to criticize Jones for. I am not going to give the HC a free pass, especially since he admitted fault for calling a flea flicker on 3rd and 1. He would have been better served with a play-action pass.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:11:28 PMThere are more than enough plays to criticize Jones for. I am not going to give the HC a free pass, especially since he admitted fault for calling a flea flicker on 3rd and 1. He would have been better served with a play-action pass.

Or a run play to tracy 😂😂😂

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 10, 2024, 02:42:19 PMThere is more than a fraction of a second though. His ability to look downfield doesn't start when he has the ball in his hands. It starts as Tracy is running up the middle. And I'm sorry dude, but the argument here can't be that the linemen are too big to see over. He has to be able to see that.

He's 6'5", not 5'11" 

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 03:22:17 PMOr a run play to tracy 😂😂😂

I am not a huge fan of going for the big play on third an short.  At that point, I prefer to make sure the 1st down is earned and there isn't a need to go for it on 4th down.

What's worse, there was at least one (I believe two) time where Daboll went with the safe conservative play on second and short when they were around midfield.  If ever there was a time to go big it's on 2nd and short around midfield.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 10, 2024, 02:42:19 PMThere is more than a fraction of a second though. His ability to look downfield doesn't start when he has the ball in his hands. It starts as Tracy is running up the middle. And I'm sorry dude, but the argument here can't be that the linemen are too big to see over. He has to be able to see that.

Would you be the first to blame Jones for fumbling the toss back because he wasn't looking the ball into his hands?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:51:47 PMThe coach said it was bad coaching

The QB said he didn't see the open receivers

The receiver said there was a lot going on in front of DJ

To be frank, I don't know what you are talking about

So we're going to start ignoring what we see and believe everything they say?

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 03:26:42 PMSo we're going to start ignoring what we see and believe everything they say?

The visuals and the game situation support what they say.  The only thing that didn't fit was Kurt Warner's commentary.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:28:03 PMThe visuals and the game situation support what they say.  The only thing that didn't fit was Kurt Warner's commentary.

So we're being selective on who we choose to believe?

Kurt Warner, the SB-winning HOF QB says Jones has to make that play.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:43:14 PMCount the time from when DJ gets the ball back in his hands until he pulls the ball down due to the impending sack.

Which is why he has to get the ball and throw it. He should have been able to see the play was going to be open BEFORE he ever got the ball in his hands.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 03:30:40 PMSo we're being selective on who we choose to believe?

Kurt Warner, the SB-winning HOF QB says Jones has to make that play.

Tim,

I don't doubt Warner's credentials.  I will say he seemed overly negative toward Jones (while conceding Jones did have a bad game) so I do have some doubts about Warner's impartiality.  For example, Warner gave Tracey a free pass on dropping the ball which turned into an interception.  DJ's throw may not have been perfect but a ball that hit's a players in both hands should be caught.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:37:06 PMTim,

I don't doubt Warner's credentials.  I will say he seemed overly negative toward Jones (while conceding Jones did have a bad game) so I do have some doubts about Warner's impartiality.  For example, Warner gave Tracey a free pass on dropping the ball which turned into an interception.  DJ's throw may not have been perfect but a ball that hit's a players in both hands should be caught.

I didn't think he was overly negative towards Jones. A pass in front of Tracy keeps it out of harm's way. This is why we question Jones's accuracy and field vision.

Warner was right to question it as well.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:37:06 PMTim,

I don't doubt Warner's credentials.  I will say he seemed overly negative toward Jones (while conceding Jones did have a bad game) so I do have some doubts about Warner's impartiality.  For example, Warner gave Tracey a free pass on dropping the ball which turned into an interception.  DJ's throw may not have been perfect but a ball that hit's a players in both hands should be caught.

Interesting

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 03:40:22 PMI didn't think he was overly negative towards Jones. A pass in front of Tracy keeps it out of harm's way. This is why we question Jones's accuracy and field vision.

Warner was right to question it as well.

Warner was right to question DJ's accuracy but WRONG to give Tracey a free pass on a costly drop.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 03:40:22 PMI didn't think he was overly negative towards Jones. A pass in front of Tracy keeps it out of harm's way. This is why we question Jones's accuracy and field vision.

Warner was right to question it as well.

If you thought it was just Warner criticizing DJ, you didn't watch the halftime show. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:43:50 PMWarner was right to question DJ's accuracy but WRONG to give Tracey a free pass on a costly drop.

To be fair it was a half garbage pass behind tracy - like 98% of his passes seem to be

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 03:44:50 PMTo be fair it was a half garbage pass behind tracy - like 98% of his passes seem to be

So you don't expect a ball that hits a receiver in both hands to be caught? 

Do you ever watch other teams?  The good teams have receivers that routinely catch throws that are not perfect.

Isn't Bryce Young like 5"10 or 5'11 vs DJ at 6'5? He saw over the big dudes just fine

What about Kyler Murray?

OL or DL height making it hard to see is a new one for me, especially when a HoFer who also had to "see over" these guys is saying plays should be made, even making a halftime montage.

I don't agree that is a viable excuse for Jones' play

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 10, 2024, 03:51:43 PMIsn't Bryce Young like 5"10 or 5'11 vs DJ at 6'5? He saw over the big dudes just fine

What about Kyler Murray?

OL or DL height making it hard to see is a new one for me, especially when a HoFer who also had to "see over" these guys is saying plays should be made, even making a halftime montage.

I don't agree that is a viable excuse for Jones' play

Don't forget the downside of a flea flicker is that the QB has to take his eyes off the field to look the ball into his hands then rescan the field.   When run properly, the defense is fooled enough that the QB has enough time to reacquire situational awareness (through the crowd of tall men fighting).  DJ had less than a second to do that.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:43:50 PMWarner was right to question DJ's accuracy but WRONG to give Tracey a free pass on a costly drop.

It wasn't a drop. It was a bad pass.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:53:51 PMDon't forget the downside of a flea flicker is that the QB has to take his eyes off the field to look the ball into his hands then rescan the field.  When run properly, the defense is fooled enough that the QB has enough time to reacquire situational awareness (through the crowd of tall men fighting).  DJ had less than a second to do that.

Idk, I get Daboll blamed himself for the play but that is coach speak, this same guy also said Jones was "locked in"

A locked in guy paid very handsomely should have been able to make the play.

The guys were open and he had enough time to get it out. It isn't like he reads defenses very often so he was ever likely to only throw to one place anyway.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:53:51 PMDon't forget the downside of a flea flicker is that the QB has to take his eyes off the field to look the ball into his hands then rescan the field.   When run properly, the defense is fooled enough that the QB has enough time to reacquire situational awareness (through the crowd of tall men fighting).  DJ had less than a second to do that.

Sounds like DJ is a little too slow to process the lightning speed necessary to play QB in the NFL.

We've seen plenty of plays that require less than a second decisions. It's yet another reason why we need to move on from him. He's mentally too slow for this game.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 10, 2024, 04:00:08 PMIdk, I get Daboll blamed himself for the play but that is coach speak, this same guy also said Jones was "locked in"

A locked in guy paid very handsomely should have been able to make the play.

The guys were open and he had enough time to get it out. It isn't like he reads defenses very often so he was ever likely to only throw to one place anyway.

It's more fundamental than coach speak, it's leadership 101: "Praise in public, criticize in private."

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 04:01:45 PMSounds like DJ is a little too slow to process the lightning speed necessary to play QB in the NFL.

We've seen plenty of plays that require less than a second decisions. It's yet another reason why we need to move on from him. He's mentally too slow for this game.

DJ is definitely slow to scan/process... this is well known around the league and pretty much every objective QB guru has made this observation. It is probably the biggest reason for his consistent lack of success in the NFL. His physical attributes are actually quite good, which I suspect is why some are still reluctant to abandon the idea that he's going to be good, even six years in.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 03:59:34 PMIt wasn't a drop. It was a bad pass.

Most in the NFL would call a pass that hits a receiver in both hands a drop

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:48:39 PMSo you don't expect a ball that hits a receiver in both hands to be caught? 

Do you ever watch other teams?  The good teams have receivers that routinely catch throws that are not perfect.

The issue is that with Jones it is much more frequent he throws behind receivers than leads them as opposed to other QBs. Don't you see this??

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:11:28 PMThere are more than enough plays to criticize Jones for. I am not going to give the HC a free pass, especially since he admitted fault for calling a flea flicker on 3rd and 1. He would have been better served with a play-action pass.

Nevermind that the play actually worked? And would have been a TD with a variety of other QBs? Or is the complaint calling that play knowing Jones couldn't possibly execute it properly which I would agree is valid criticism.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 04:13:17 PMThe issue is that with Jones it is much more frequent he throws behind receivers than leads them as opposed to other QBs. Don't you see this??

I made it clear that I saw the inaccuracy.  The only difference is you and Tim give receivers who get both hands on the ball and drop it a free pass

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 10, 2024, 04:14:30 PMNevermind that the play actually worked? And would have been a TD with a variety of other QBs? Or is the complaint calling that play knowing Jones couldn't possibly execute it properly which I would agree is valid criticism.

The facts (ie sack) show the play failed.  Only speculation suggests somehow it "worked"

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 04:13:12 PMMost in the NFL would call a pass that hits a receiver in both hands a drop

This isn't subjective, was it scored as a drop or not? 

Quote from: kingm56 on November 10, 2024, 04:17:04 PMThis isn't subjective, was it scored as a drop or not? 

It was scored as an INT so the NFL never made a determination that it was a drop or not.  Nice try, though

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 02:32:53 PMOnly it appears his first read was open

You've seen the All-22 view?

Didn't realise it was out so early.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 10, 2024, 04:45:59 PMYou've seen the All-22 view?

Didn't realise it was out so early.

You can see the open receivers on the videos I posted. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 04:50:22 PMYou can see the open receivers on the videos I posted. 

Probably best to the all-22 is up and ready.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 10, 2024, 04:56:05 PMProbably best to the all-22 is up and ready.

What is missing in the video?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 04:59:33 PMWhat is missing in the video?

Probably an excuse, somewhere.

I've been through this dance often enough with the "lovers" aka the opposite of the "haters".

I'm loathed to see anything before the 4 of them can see it. Know what I mean?

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 10, 2024, 05:01:59 PMProbably an excuse, somewhere.

I've been through this dance often enough with the "lovers" aka the opposite of the "haters".

I'm loathed to see anything before the 4 of them can see it. Know what I mean?

By Tuesday we will have a thread or two or three explaining how Jones is not the issue and we who criticize him continue to be wrong about him - same old story the past 5 years.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 05:06:51 PMBy Tuesday we will have a thread or two or three explaining how Jones is not the issue and we who criticize him continue to be wrong about him - same old story the past 5 years.

Eventually, one of the four will apologise.

Maybe.

Happy to wait and see. Just like it was called when the Giants mismanaged their situation and extended Jones

There's enough podcasts out there saying it is a mistake. Know what I mean?

I'll bet he can see the number of dollars in his bank account very well.
What is it, 40 million for this year.
Was it the same for last year?. So that is about 80 mill for what 5 wins in almost 2 years. Like 16 million a win and he claims he can't see open receivers.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 04:23:28 PMIt was scored as an INT so the NFL never made a determination that it was a drop or not.  Nice try, though

Which goes to the QB putting it in harm's way and not it bouncing off the receiver's hands.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 05:48:08 PMWhich goes to the QB putting it in harm's way and not it bouncing off the receiver's hands.

Any time a throw ends up in a defender's hands it's ruled an INT regardless of fault

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 04:16:55 PMThe facts (ie sack) show the play failed.  Only speculation suggests somehow it "worked"

The play failed because Jones didn't throw the ball. You have spoken about DJ's support pillars: he had all three on that play and still couldn't succeed.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 05:51:31 PMAny time a throw ends up in a defender's hands it's ruled an INT regardless of fault

Very true. My eyes, seeing it live and in replays, tell me that it was a terrible pass thrown behind Tracy and allowing the defender to make the interception.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 05:51:43 PMThe play failed because Jones didn't throw the ball. You have spoken about DJ's support pillars: he had all three on that play and still couldn't succeed.

A successful flea flicker fools the defense.  Watch the guy who sacks DJ, he never played the run, which a successful flea flickers sees happen.

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1855635186312007971?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Also watch the clean pocket and extra half second Herbert enjoyed on his flea flicker

https://x.com/boltupyo/status/1855733529923203555?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 05:59:55 PMA successful flea flicker fools the defense.  Watch the guy who sacks DJ, he never played the run, which a successful flea flickers sees happen.

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1855635186312007971?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Also watch the clean pocket and extra half second Herbert enjoyed on his flea flicker

https://x.com/boltupyo/status/1855733529923203555?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

The video you posted the guy says to show it to Jones to show him how to execute it correctly.....

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 05:59:55 PMA successful flea flicker fools the defense.  Watch the guy who sacks DJ, he never played the run, which a successful flea flickers sees happen.

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1855635186312007971?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Also watch the clean pocket and extra half second Herbert enjoyed on his flea flicker

https://x.com/boltupyo/status/1855733529923203555?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

You can dial up any of the 100's of flea flickers in the past 10 years that have worked. It has like a 95% success rate. Only Daniel Jones could fail to execute a flea flicker twice in a season.

Back to the original post showing Nabors comments I commend him for sticking up for his QB after some of the grief he received for his comments. If you are going to rag on him for the bad stuff then commend him for being a standup kid.

Curious, Rich- Why do you think DJ didn't let go of the ball?  He clearly wound up to throw and just didn't release it.  Why?  If you pause it right when he gets the ball back into his hands it seems obvious it should have been an easy completion.  DJ's release/windup was way too slow, and I'll be honest I've never paid much attention to it.  Has his release always been this slow?  Are there any stats anywhere that tell that story, I wonder?

Quote from: TDToomer on November 10, 2024, 06:04:29 PMYou can dial up any of the 100's of flea flickers in the past 10 years that have worked. It has like a 95% success rate. Only Daniel Jones could fail to execute a flea flicker twice in a season.

Back to the original post showing Nabors comments I commend him for sticking up for his QB after some of the grief he received for his comments. If you are going to rag on him for the bad stuff then commend him for being a standup kid.

Also, only DJ would have less than a second to get rid of the ball

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 05:59:55 PMA successful flea flicker fools the defense.  Watch the guy who sacks DJ, he never played the run, which a successful flea flickers sees happen.

https://x.com/mysportsupdate/status/1855635186312007971?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Also watch the clean pocket and extra half second Herbert enjoyed on his flea flicker

https://x.com/boltupyo/status/1855733529923203555?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Jones has the ball in his hands in this screenshot. He sets, pats the ball, starts to throw, then stops and gets sacked.

He's not a good or smart QB. He can run though.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20241110/b744309844b0722d649a0d96a88f904d.jpg)

Sent from my SM-S928U using Tapatalk

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 06:07:18 PMAlso, only DJ would have less than a second to get rid of the ball

More than enough time. The play had already developed. All he had to do was deliver the goods.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 06:08:40 PMMore than enough time. The play had already developed. All he had to do was deliver the goods.

The guy in the chargers tweet even says show it to Jones so he can learn how to execute.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 10, 2024, 06:09:48 PMThe guy in the chargers tweet even says show it to Jones so he can learn how to execute.

Why do we have to teach our 6 year veteran? He should know already.

I'm officially bowing out of the Daniel Jones conversations. My stance is well-known and I don't foresee Jones doing anything on the field to change views on him.

Quote from: TDToomer on November 10, 2024, 06:13:40 PMWhy do we have to teach our 6 year veteran? He should know already.

I do not disagree with you

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 06:07:18 PMAlso, only DJ would have less than a second to get rid of the ball

I simply find it all amazing.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 06:07:31 PMJones has the ball in his hands in this screenshot. He sets, pats the ball, starts to throw, then stops and gets sacked.

He's not a good or smart QB. He can run though.

Any notion that he had no time is eliminated by the fact that he cocked to throw and just didn't pull the trigger. Not the first time I've seen him do that when he had a guy open either. He just doesn't trust what he sees, even when the play is wide open.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 10, 2024, 08:16:50 PMAny notion that he had no time is eliminated by the fact that he cocked to throw and just didn't pull the trigger. Not the first time I've seen him do that when he had a guy open either. He just doesn't trust what he sees, even when the play is wide open.

Plays are there to be made. Missing opportunities changes the game plan and dictates the next play call.

If Daboll is fired, his next stop will have a QB to run his offense.

Quote from: T200 on November 10, 2024, 08:20:51 PMPlays are there to be made. Missing opportunities changes the game plan and dictates the next play call.

If Daboll is fired, his next stop will have a QB to run his offense.

And many here will see what they asked for and regret it deeply.

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 10, 2024, 09:12:32 PMAnd many here will see what they asked for and regret it deeply.

I doubt it. Hearing/reading "I was wrong" is rare 'round these parts. Doubling down is the norm here at the BBH.

He had enough time to throw that ball and get the 1st.  To say otherwise is just looking for an excuse.

Watching the replay the WR's are running across the field toward Jones' strong side on the same plane(opponents 37-38 yd line). That tells me that this play was planned and practiced. Jones should have known where to immediately look/throw by design.  :o  :(  ~X(  :-??  :confused:  :suspious:  :what:  Wandale was open by half an acre. The day was saved with the terds losing big at home, even if it was to the boids. The cow cookies are also 0 for home this year. <:-P  Then there is the jets. They may be in worse shape than us. That takes doing. It's imperative we stay ahead of them in the race to the bottom for draft purposes. Most likely they are looking for a QB as well. If they keep protecting Rodgers the way they are then one Sunday they will hold his retirement party on the field.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 10, 2024, 03:48:39 PMSo you don't expect a ball that hits a receiver in both hands to be caught? 

Do you ever watch other teams?  The good teams have receivers that routinely catch throws that are not perfect.

Mighty,

I agree with you here. The pass while slightly behind Tracy, hits Tracy in both of his hands. The issue was Tracy closed his hands prior to the ball being secured and he popped it up allowing the Panther defender to intercept the pass.

There were technically three turnovers by Tracy today. He fumbled one, he fumbled another that went out of bounds, and he bobbled the pass which led to the turnover.

Moving forward he can't play like that anymore, hopefully he learns

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 10, 2024, 10:38:51 PMMighty,

I agree with you here. The pass while slightly behind Tracy, hits Tracy in both of his hands. The issue was Tracy closed his hands prior to the ball being secured and he popped it up allowing the Panther defender to intercept the pass.

There were technically three turnovers by Tracy today. He fumbled one, he fumbled another that went out of bounds, and he bobbled the pass which led to the turnover.

Moving forward he can't play like that anymore, hopefully he learns

Bull crap!...I'm so tired of all the BS excuses!...Jones rarely "leads" a receiver and SO many balls are caught while recievers are making sliding or jump catches. Never in stride. Ever. The pass to Tracy sucked. He had to turn and twist and the ball wasn't easy as it should be. Also I'll say it finally - Jones throws too many balls "late" which allows defenders to be on top of our recievers. It's ridiculous. He's done. It's time to accept it after 6 years. Let's pray the next QB doesn't have such a leash.

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 10:46:09 PMBull crap!...I'm so tired of all the BS excuses!...Jones rarely "leads" a receiver and SO many balls are caught while recievers are making sliding or jump catches. Never in stride. Ever. The pass to Tracy sucked. He had to turn and twist and the ball wasn't easy as it should be. Also I'll say it finally - Jones throws too many balls "late" which allows defenders to be on top of our recievers. It's ridiculous. He's done. It's time to accept it after 6 years. Let's pray the next QB doesn't have such a leash.

Trench,

My comment had nothing to do with whether DJ stays here or not, I was just referencing that one play, where Tracy did get his hands on the ball, and every coach teaches that if the receiver gets his hands on the ball, he needs to make the catch, this is football 101.

On another note, you're getting too worked up, we are just discussing football man. As far as his other passes in the game, there were more than a few that were either behind the WR, or just missed entirely, I think everyone can see that.

Don't worry, you may end up getting your wish as the Giants may be selecting their next QB in the upcoming draft.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 10, 2024, 11:16:21 PMTrench,

My comment had nothing to do with whether DJ stays here or not, I was just referencing that one play, where Tracy did get his hands on the ball, and every coach teaches that if the receiver gets his hands on the ball, he needs to make the catch, this is football 101.

On another note, you're getting too worked up, we are just discussing football man. As far as his other passes in the game, there were more than a few that were either behind the WR, or just missed entirely, I think everyone can see that.

Don't worry, you may end up getting your wish as the Giants may be selecting their next QB in the upcoming draft.

I've just never seen someone get so many chances or excuses is all.

It's weird that so much energy is being expended in trying to excuse the failed flea flicker play and deflect blame away from Jones even though he had wide open guys downfield. Who really cares at this point? No matter how you apportion blame for that play, the indisputable fact remains that Jones was AWFUL yesterday regardless, period. He is the single biggest reason they lost to the worst team in football. He is the single biggest reason the Giants probably ARE the worst team in football. His season has been awful.

And more to the point I don't know why we're still talking endlessly about this player in any capacity. With the exception of maybe one poster who hasn't chimed in today, even the most ardent defenders of this guy have capitulated, because we all know the end game here.

The Daniel Jones era on the NY Giants is finally, mercifully coming to an end. He failed.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 11, 2024, 05:11:03 AMIt's weird that so much energy is being expended in trying to excuse the failed flea flicker play and deflect blame away from Jones even though he had wide open guys downfield. Who really cares at this point? No matter how you apportion blame for that play, the indisputable fact remains that Jones was AWFUL yesterday regardless, period. He is the single biggest reason they lost to the worst team in football. He is the single biggest reason the Giants probably ARE the worst team in football. His season has been awful.

And more to the point I don't know why we're still talking endlessly about this player in any capacity. With the exception of maybe one poster who hasn't chimed in today, even the most ardent defenders of this guy have capitulated, because we all know the end game here.

The Daniel Jones era on the NY Giants is finally, mercifully coming to an end. He failed.

I think what we saw yesterday was the problem with hyperfocus on Daniel Jones.  Even when a coach admits he screws up some people are still trying to pin all the blame on Jones.   Even when a receiver drops the ball, they are given a free pass because Daniel Jones threw the pass.

The reality is this is likely Jones' last season, and there is a good chance that he will his last game.   Hyperfocusing on Jones at this point, only serves to hide all the other very real problems with this team.  If all the serious flaws are ignored, we are all going to be disappointed when the team adds a new QB and still sucks.   

I thought Daboll said Jones is locked in? Is that no longer the case? Cause he did say that as well

It is all coach speak, he doesn't truly believe it is his fault, his reaction during the game tells the whole story

The problem is not what he couldn't see or whether it was a good play call.

In that situation, Jones' job one was to AVOID a sack.

The situation was short yardage. Taking a sack eliminated their chance to go for it on fourth down.

Bob

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 11:22:31 PMI've just never seen someone get so many chances or excuses is all.

My friend, you and I should have been pals back in 1988 when Kenny Hill knocked out Mark Collins who was trying to catch Jerry Rice on that miracle play where the 49ers came back and took one back from the Giants who actually took it from the 49ers that day.

The yelling and screaming at Collins and Hill lasted 20 years!!! The play still haunts me, but nowhere near as bad as it once did.

This, too, shall pass.

Hang in there!

Peace!

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 11, 2024, 07:49:58 AMI thought Daboll said Jones is locked in? Is that no longer the case? Cause he did say that as well

It is all coach speak, he doesn't truly believe it is his fault, his reaction during the game tells the whole story

What exactly does "locked in" mean?  How do we measure "locked in"?

Coaches deploy different tactics for different personalities of players. They also use different approaches at different times with the same player 

QB was Jones's job to lose. No competition was brought in at all, period.  Outside of injury no one else was being given reps on game day as management needed a clear understanding of what they had and what they didn't have in Jones, so Mara could clearly see the 22 mill payout to cut ties was a good deal.

As such providing positive messages for a player who lacks confidence was a smart approach. Jones was playing average / slightly above average ball and building him up was the only reasonable  approach 

As development started to go backwards and the signs showed taking the next developmental step was less likely the coaches comments were not as uplifting 

What and when Daboll made his comments aren't odd or out of line



 

Quote from: Trench on November 10, 2024, 10:46:09 PMBull crap!...I'm so tired of all the BS excuses!...Jones rarely "leads" a receiver and SO many balls are caught while recievers are making sliding or jump catches. Never in stride. Ever. The pass to Tracy sucked. He had to turn and twist and the ball wasn't easy as it should be. Also I'll say it finally - Jones throws too many balls "late" which allows defenders to be on top of our recievers. It's ridiculous. He's done. It's time to accept it after 6 years. Let's pray the next QB doesn't have such a leash.

@T200

I have a hard time understanding how you could claim this wasn't a drop

(https://i.imgur.com/Rq3etrj.png)

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 09:19:06 AMCoaches deploy different tactics for different personalities of players. They also use different approaches at different times with the same player

QB was Jones's job to lose. No competition was brought in at all, period.  Outside of injury no one else was being given reps on game day as management needed a clear understanding of what they had and what they didn't have in Jones, so Mara could clearly see the 22 mill payout to cut ties was a good deal.

As such providing positive messages for a player who lacks confidence was a smart approach. Jones was playing average / slightly above average ball and building him up was the only reasonable  approach

As development started to go backwards and the signs showed taking the next developmental step was less likely the coaches comments were not as uplifting

What and when Daboll made his comments aren't odd or out of line

QBs going backwards in their development is common in Daboll's career

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:19:28 AM@T200

I have a hard time understanding how you could claim this wasn't a drop

(https://i.imgur.com/Rq3etrj.png)

Do you have a link to the video of that play?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:19:28 AM@T200

I have a hard time understanding how you could claim this wasn't a drop

(https://i.imgur.com/Rq3etrj.png)

If Tracy is running to the right of the screen (towards the defender) then that's a drop.  If he's running full speed in the other direction and has to turn backwards to attempt to make that catch it becomes a hell of a lot more difficult.  Should he have caught it anyway?  Maybe, but even if he does he's getting tackled immediately whereas if the ball is put where it should be put he catches it in stride without a challenge and also as an added bonus is running away from the guy that's trying to tackle him so there could be yards after the catch too.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 09:39:35 AMDo you have a link to the video of that play?

https://x.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1855660360864338248

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 11, 2024, 09:47:19 AMShould he have caught it anyway?  Maybe,

NFL receivers are expected to catch a ball that's in both hands like that
 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:50:19 AMhttps://x.com/BobbySkinner_/status/1855660360864338248

Thanks

The video tells a more accurate story than the screenshot.

Yes, the ball hit him in both hands and he should have caught it.

Can you admit that it was a horrible pass to begin with that should have been thrown in front of Tracy instead of behind him, and if he doesn't catch it, it doesn't result in an interception?

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 09:54:41 AMYes, the ball hit him in both hands and he should have caught it.

That is the acknowledgment that I have spent two days and many posts trying to get.  Now we can circle to my point that Kurt Warner failed to point out that Tracy should have made the catch, which is why I think Warner had a bias against Jones (who certainly didn't need a bias for negative comments from the analyst)

QuoteCan you admit that it was a horrible pass to begin with that should have been thrown in front of Tracy instead of behind him, and if he doesn't catch it, it doesn't result in an interception?

I would say it was a bad pass.  "Horrible" seems hyperbolic to me as the ball hit the receiver in his hands.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:57:58 AMThat is the acknowledgment that I have spent two days and many posts trying to get.  Now we can circle to my point that Kurt Warner failed to point out that Tracy should have made the catch, which is why I think Warner had a bias against Jones (who certainly didn't need a bias for negative comments from the analyst)

I would say it was a bad pass.  "Horrible" seems hyperbolic to me as the ball hit the receiver in his hands.

Do you think a better pass from Jones results in a turnover in that situation?

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 10:02:20 AMDo you think a better pass from Jones results in a turnover in that situation?

Probably not, but that is speculative (albeit reasonable speculation)

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:04:03 AMProbably not, but that is speculative (albeit reasonable speculation)

I think we all know that 99% of the time, a properly placed ball does not result in an interception in that situation.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:57:58 AMI would say it was a bad pass.  "Horrible" seems hyperbolic to me as the ball hit the receiver in his hands.

It's a pretty terrible pass. Even if Tracy catches it, he's getting buried for no gain on 3rd and 7. That ball has to be out in front of him to even give him a chance to turn the corner. Not sure about the play design either whether this is supposed to be a quick pass designed to create YAC or if Jones just immediately diverts to a check down. Just looked at a view from behind Jones and it looks like Nabers is wide open for a fairly easy TD.

I'm more concerned that DJ decided to throw a short out to the RB that would have resulted in a 4th down, when he had Theo open on a slant in the middle of the field, which had a higher probability of a first down.   He also had Nabers; I doubt the first option was to throw the ball 5 yards short of the line-to-gain.  This is who DJ is, and why we've been almost dead last in scoring in 4 of his 5 years.

Concerning the throw, I don't view it as a binary choice; it was a crap throw that should have been caught.  DJ is as culpable for the INT as Tracy....

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 10:16:48 AMI'm more concerned that DJ decided to throw a short out to the RB that would have resulted in a 4th down, when he had Theo open on a slant in the middle of the field, which had a higher probability of a first down.   He also had Nabers; I doubt it was a play designed to throw the ball 5 yards short of the line-to-gain...

You can see the play around the 6 minute mark here. Nabers looks like he's wide open but Jones just immediately goes to Tracy:

https://x.com/nickfalato/status/1855935503704773113

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:20:11 AMQBs going backwards in their development is common in Daboll's career

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

Jones has had the same traits be limited factors for 6 years 

So what Daboll is or isn't will need to be assessed separately 

He got more out of jones than anyone else, and exposed Jones's ceiling in the process  

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:25:32 AMJones has had the same traits be limited factors for 6 years

So what Daboll is or isn't will need to be assessed separately

He got more out of jones than anyone else, and exposed Jones's ceiling in the process 

It seems to me that what Daboll is or isn't is more relevant than Jones.  The reality is that the Giants broke Jones, and he doesn't seem fixable, at least by the Giants.  At this point, if Jones ever becomes a starter (a long shot at this point), it will be with another team.

On the other hand, what Daboll is as a head coach is perhaps the most relevant topic left for the season

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:27:36 AMIt seems to me that what Daboll is or isn't is more relevant than Jones.  The reality is that the Giants broke Jones, and he doesn't seem fixable, at least by the Giants.  At this point, if Jones ever becomes a starter (a long shot at this point), it will be with another team.

On the other hand, what Daboll is as a head coach is perhaps the most relevant topic left for the season

Yup, we know Jones is done so the fixation shouldn't be there any longer.  We need to know if the coach and GM are viable.  If there's an actual plan here.  Things are awful right now when there should be signs of improvement. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:27:36 AMIt seems to me that what Daboll is or isn't is more relevant than Jones.  The reality is that the Giants broke Jones, and he doesn't seem fixable, at least by the Giants.  At this point, if Jones ever becomes a starter (a long shot at this point), it will be with another team.

On the other hand, what Daboll is as a head coach is perhaps the most relevant topic left for the season

I am not buying the Giants broke Jones, the film shows the same traits over and over. I will say they didn't do him many favors in his development.  But Jones inability to continue to develop is on him and his mental limitations and the signs have been there since the first and second seasons.

Presnap and post snap, all the same traits that existed in past in the face of pressure or in the absence of it still exist today.

Playing QB off the 2 headed running attack with Barkley was the only real success he showed and that was a double edge sword as it was limited and halting his development.



I completely agree, what role if any Daboll has with the Giants is the number 1 question, then try to assess offensive personnel 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:27:36 AMIt seems to me that what Daboll is or isn't is more relevant than Jones.  The reality is that the Giants broke Jones, and he doesn't seem fixable, at least by the Giants.  At this point, if Jones ever becomes a starter (a long shot at this point), it will be with another team.

On the other hand, what Daboll is as a head coach is perhaps the most relevant topic left for the season

So Rich, just to be clear, you're saying that Daniel Jones could have been at least a good Franchise QB if the Giants didn't break him and or if Daboll had since properly developed him, and Schoen had given him a proper supporting cast? 

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:33:52 AMI am not buying the Giants broke Jones, the film shows the same traits over and over. I will say they didn't do him many favors in his development.  But Jones inability to continue to develop is on him and his mental limitations and the signs have been there since the first and second seasons.

Presnap and post snap, all the same traits that existed in past in the face of pressure or in the absence of it still exist today.

Playing QB off the 2 headed running attack with Barkley was the only real success he showed and that was a double edge sword as it was limited and halting his development.



I completely agree, what role if any Daboll has with the Giants is the number 1 question, then try to assess offensive personnel

Regardless if you believe the Giants did or didn't contribute to DJ's failure to develop into a franchise quarterback, it is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  DJ is broken and he isn't going to be fixed by the Giants.

One thing that I will say baffles me about Jones is his clear decline from 2022 until now.  I would say the pass protection is roughly on par with 2022 with a better WR corps with Nabers.  So why is Jones playing markedly worse this season than 2022? 

2022 QB rating 95.2/QBR 62.9

2024 QB rating 79.4/QBR 46.4

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 09:19:28 AM@T200

I have a hard time understanding how you could claim this wasn't a drop

(https://i.imgur.com/Rq3etrj.png)

Is it a drop?...yes it's a drop...hopefully that makes the Jones is a franchise QB crew happy that I admit it...the issue (to me however) is it is one in a plethora of instances where a nice easy completion is made to be MUCH harder than it needs to be because the throw was just not a good one. If u see the video, Tracy is all twisted and contortioned up...should he catch it?...absolutely!!!....but we have seen this too much where the easy catches are made to be much harder and acrobatic than they need to be. Rarely if ever do we see Jones leading a receiver in stride and to that point a case can be made he is actually late with his delivery on most cases.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2024, 10:38:04 AMSo Rich, just to be clear, you're saying that Daniel Jones could have been at least a good Franchise QB if the Giants didn't break him and or if Daboll had since properly developed him, and Schoen had given him a proper supporting cast? 

I think that Jones has/had the potential to be a franchise QB (how good is hard to say).  Between years of bad protection and the beating and injuries (2 serious neck and an ACL), along with weak receivers who frequently drop passes or fail to get open, heavy scrutiny by press/pundits/fans, and a merry-go-round of mediocre offensive coaching, DJ never stood a chance at reaching his full potential  What his full potential was will always be subject to debate, but I think/hope most would agree that after being drafted by the Giants that full potential was never realized. 

Quote from: Trench on November 11, 2024, 10:40:29 AMIs it a drop?...yes it's a drop...hopefully that makes the Jones is a franchise QB crew happy that I admit it...

I would think the truth had more fans than that

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 10:19:59 AMYou can see the play around the 6 minute mark here. Nabers looks like he's wide open but Jones just immediately goes to Tracy:

https://x.com/nickfalato/status/1855935503704773113

Daniel Jones Giants career in a nutshell.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:38:51 AMRegardless if you believe the Giants did or didn't contribute to DJ's failure to develop into a franchise quarterback, it is pretty much irrelevant at this point.  DJ is broken and he isn't going to be fixed by the Giants.

One thing that I will say baffles me about Jones is his clear decline from 2022 until now.  I would say the pass protection is roughly on par with 2022 with a better WR corps with Nabers.  So why is Jones playing markedly worse this season than 2022? 

2022 QB rating 95.2/QBR 62.9

2024 QB rating 79.4/QBR 46.4

O line is much better than in 2022 and Barkley was the offense and the dual running threat allowed Jones and Barkley both to run despite the porous Oline, as well as, allowing jones to pass even if at a low functioning level. 

Regardless it was an offense with training wheels, designed to limit the impact of the horrible line and Jones limitations.
simple, simple a simple....

It is disingenuous to imply that 2022 was the level Jones was consistently at when it was anomaly engineered and executed by Daboll so well it got the team into the playoffs. 

and to give credit were credit is due Jones had a career game

Jones yesterday is not much different that the QB the Giants drafted; extremely hardworking class act that has the best intentions.  Just not a leader and not a but who elevates the offense and makes others better.  In fact he has consistently made his line look worse than they are. 

Non of this is new, he is the same guy he always was

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:53:20 AMO line is much better than in 2022 and Barkley was the offense and the dual running threat allowed Jones and Barkley both to run despite the porous Oline, as well as, allowing jones to pass even if at a low functioning level. 

Regardless it was an offense with training wheels, designed to limit the impact of the horrible line and Jones limitations.
simple, simple a simple....

It is disingenuous to imply that 2022 was the level Jones was consistently at when it was anomaly engineered and executed by Daboll so well it got the team into the playoffs. 

and to give credit were credit is due Jones had a career game

Jones yesterday is not much different that the QB the Giants drafted; extremely hardworking class act that has the best intentions.  Just not a leader and not a but who elevates the offense and makes others better.  In fact he has consistently made his line look worse than they are. 

Non of this is new, he is the same guy he always was

Tracy seems to negate much of the Barkley factor.   As for the 2022 offense being better for Daniel Jones, what does that say about Daboll if he put his starting QB in a system where he will perform much worse than his potential?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:57:35 AMTracy seems to negate much of the Barkley factor.  As for the 2022 offense being better for Daniel Jones, what does that say about Daboll if he put his starting QB in a system where he will perform much worse than his potential?

It says he put him in a system where he actually had to function like an NFL QB and stop relying on Barkley as a crutch and a check  down.   Maybe that is exactly way Schoen let Barkley leave....

Side note - They couldn't run DJ like that they did in 2022 as he is not physically capable of sustaining it. 

Knowing at the end of this season there is an out clause Jones needed to hit developmental benchmarks for the in-game mental processing so they could decided to keep him next year. He simply has not.

Jones should thank Daboll for the 2022 season being the highlight of his career and the monster guaranteed payday it lead to. Daboll did that and it's a positive, to spin it as a negative presents as a misguided smear effort

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:12:43 AMIt says he put him in a system where he actually had to function like an NFL QB and stop relying on Barkley as a crutch and a check  down.   Maybe that is exactly way Schoen let Barkley leave....

Side note - They couldn't run DJ like that they did in 2022 as he is not physically capable of sustaining it. 

Knowing at the end of this season there is an out clause Jones needed to hit developmental benchmarks for the in-game mental processing so they could decided to keep him next year. He simply has not.

Jones should thank Daboll for the 2022 season being the highlight of his career and the monster guaranteed payday it lead to. Daboll did that and it's a positive, to spin it as a negative presents as a spin move

If DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:14:29 AMIf DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

those are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same. 

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it.  

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him 

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

Exactly.  Daball didn't break DJ; he's is who he's proven to be for 8 years now.  The narrative is pressed by a few fans who simply don't want to admit they were been wrong about Jones for 3+ years. 

Jones never won at any level, he never had it.  I couldn't care less about QBR, PFF or whatever.  Those things have their place, but they don't replace what we all see.  He was never a great passer, not even sure he was good and I am going back to his first couple seasons.  I wanted him to do it, but he showed me he wasn't able to be in that echelon of quarterbacks who can scare defenses with passing or make big throws at key times.  I'm looking at the pattern not the exception - I know he has had some good games.

Unfortunately there is almost a religious belief in this guy and I think if Devito came in and started winnning those people would believe the coaches learned to coach and WR or OL learned to play.  They just can't accept Jones is not and was not good.  I will agree the NYG did him no favors - the line was a mess for a long time and that hurt him, but it didn't break a franchise talent.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 10:42:12 AMI think that Jones has/had the potential to be a franchise QB (how good is hard to say).  Between years of bad protection and the beating and injuries (2 serious neck and an ACL), along with weak receivers who frequently drop passes or fail to get open, heavy scrutiny by press/pundits/fans, and a merry-go-round of mediocre offensive coaching, DJ never stood a chance at reaching his full potential  What his full potential was will always be subject to debate, but I think/hope most would agree that after being drafted by the Giants that full potential was never realized. 

Or, he was never really that good to begin with. His Duke career was also filled with excuses.

59% Comp %, 52 YTDs and 29 INTs 6.4 Y/A

In 2022 Saquon averaged 5.3 YPC in the games they won, and 3.7 YPC in the games they lost. There was an opposing player who even said that to beat the Giants, they know they have to stop Saquon Barkley.

In the last two games, that the Giants should have won, Daboll saw the potential in the Run Game with Tracy and he balanced the play calling Run to Pass, 31/26 and 24/37.

Rich, you're not wrong that Jones got a raw deal here and had some bad luck. Three Head Coaches, 5 Play callers, Two GM's and several Injuries. You have to admit however that there's more to it than that. He's playing scared to make a mistake and he doesn't trust himself, which throws off the timing on his passes. But it's not just causation. It's correlation too. It's in his makeup to get rattled, and he lacks quick recognition skills.   

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

Below average, by definition,is not the "norm"

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 11:24:50 AMExactly.  Daball didn't break DJ; he's is who he's proven to be for 8 years now.  The narrative is pressed by a few fans who simply don't want to admit they were been wrong about Jones for 3+ years. 

If you go by stats, this claim is incorrect

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 11:20:49 AMthose are the norm and closer to the median

It is what Jones is. This seems clear to most

Back when we had Davis Webb it most almost impossible to discuss Webb without bias, Jones is very much the same.

It appears now that the reality that Jones is not the QB and will not be the QB of the future you have begrudgingly accepted it and have gone all in on blaming the Giants and the coaches for it. 

I will say you seem too personally invested in jones to be objective about any subject related to him

I  assume you are you are referring to your bias and are not engaging in a dishonest personal attack because the facts are against you.


I don't accuse you of being an irrational Jones hater, I expect equal respect

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:14:29 AMIf DJ should thank Daboll for his career-best 2022, should he curse him for his below-career average in 2023 and 2024?

The issue being that his career best was still a mediocre season. It was an incredibly low risk / low reward offense that was designed to not lose games for you in the hopes that the defense can do just enough to get you across the finish line. You can only run that type of offense for so long before the league catches up to you and, when they do, you have to be able to adjust and do more but Jones just isn't capable.

Football is fun and an amazing game to watch, but for the players it's a job, much more than fun; a very difficult job; an impossible one to be constantly good, if you have any weakness.

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 11:31:56 AMThe issue being that his career best was still a mediocre season. It was an incredibly low risk / low reward offense that was designed to not lose games for you in the hopes that the defense can do just enough to get you across the finish line. You can only run that type of offense for so long before the league catches up to you and, when they do, you have to be able to adjust and do more but Jones just isn't capable.

Mediocre with no help from the line or receivers isn't half bad

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:41:19 AMMediocre with no help from the line or receivers isn't half bad

You've often cited the three support pillars a QB needs.

What about the support pillars a coach needs, specifically speaking of talent on the roster and at the key positions?

If the QB needs a good coach, isn't it reciprocal that a coach needs support from his QB? If the coach wants to implement a high-powered passing attack but can't because of the limitations of his QB, is that a knock on the coach? Of course, the response is that the coach is supposed to tailor his offense around the talent of his players.

And that's exactly what he did in 2022. He had to dumb down his high-powered offense to something more basic and rudimentary that his QB could handle. As @babywhales said, a training wheels offense.

The offense was limited due to DJ's deficiencies and inability to operate a potent offense.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 11:53:16 AMYou've often cited the three support pillars a QB needs.

What about the support pillars a coaching needs, specifically speaking of talent on the roster and at the key positions?

If the QB needs a good coach, isn't it reciprocal that a coach needs support from his QB? If the coach wants to implement a high-powered passing attack but can't because of the limitations of his QB, is that a knock on the coach? Of course, the response is that the coach is supposed to tailor his offense around the talent of his players.

And that's exactly what he did in 2022. He had to dumb down his high-powered offense to something more basic and rudimentary that his QB could handle. As @babywhales said, a training wheels offense.

The offense was limited due to DJ's deficiencies and inability to operate a potent offense.

A coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.   His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players   Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:58:08 AMA coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.   His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players   Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

Of course he did.

Do you think Daboll created a system built around DJ's limited skillset?

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 11:59:45 AMOf course he did.

Do you think Daboll created a system built around DJ's limited skillset?

In 2022, yes.   Since then, the results suggest no.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:58:08 AMA coach is tasked to win.  So a coach should run a system that produces wins.  His job isn't to run a system he likes, but is ill suited to his players  Do you believe with the closeness between Schoen and Daboll that Daboll didn't have input into the team building?

But the offense he had to implement based on Jones' skillset has a very limited ceiling, which is the inherent problem. Maintaining that offense would have gotten us nowhere and the whole point of bringing Jones back was to see if he could enhance his skillset to fit what Daboll wants to do. It's fairly obvious that he can't. If the underlying question here is whether Daboll or Jones is the bigger problem, the answer is emphatically Jones.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:01:03 PMIn 2022, yes.   Since then, the results suggest no.

What, in your view, are the differences in his 2022 system and this year's?

For the record, I don't hold 2023 against either of them because of DJ's early injury.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:06:33 PMWhat, in your view, are the differences in his 2022 system and this year's?

For the record, I don't hold 2023 against either of them because of DJ's early injury.

Tim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.   While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 11, 2024, 12:06:27 PMBut the offense he had to implement based on Jones' skillset has a very limited ceiling, which is the inherent problem. Maintaining that offense would have gotten us nowhere and the whole point of bringing Jones back was to see if he could enhance his skillset to fit what Daboll wants to do. It's fairly obvious that he can't. If the underlying question here is whether Daboll or Jones is the bigger problem, the answer is emphatically Jones.

2022 was Daboll's third best offense in his career

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 11:27:27 AMIf you go by stats, this claim is incorrect

I'm not sure what stats you're using, but I assure you I'm correct. Let's analyze the data for consistency in terms of both averages and variance across all seasons.

Passing Analysis:

Jones' passing yards range from a low of 2,506 in 2023 (an injury-affected season) to a high of 3,958 in 2019. Ignoring 2023 as an outlier, the other years have passing yards in the 3,400-3,900 range, showing relatively stable output.

1. Average Passing Yards (excluding 2023):
(3,958 + 3,576 + 3,749 + 3,405 + 3,519) / 5 = 3,641.4
Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 242 yards
With a small standard deviation (242 yards), his passing yards remain within a consistent range over most seasons, indicating no major year-to-year fluctuations.

2. Passing Touchdowns:
Jones' passing touchdowns vary from 6 (2023) to 32 (2019). However, excluding the two outliers (2019 and 2023), his TDs range between 13 and 16 over other seasons.
Average Passing TDs (excluding 2019 and 2023):
(13 + 15 + 16 + 14) / 4=14.5
Standard Deviation (excluding 2019 and 2023): Approx. 1.3 TDs
The low variability here suggests that, aside from his rookie year, Jones' passing touchdown output is steady around 14-15 per season.

3. Interceptions:
Jones' interceptions range from a low of 5 in 2022 to a high of 17 in 2023, though most years fall between 11 and 16.
Average INTs (excluding 2023):
(16 + 12 + 11 + 5 + 12) / 5=11.2
Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 4.1 INTs
With a moderate standard deviation, his interceptions have some fluctuation but mostly stay around the 11-12 mark, reflecting stability in limiting turnovers.

Rushing Analysis:

1. Rushing Yards:
Jones' rushing yards show an increase in 2022 (752), but his other seasons range from 365 to 558.
Average Rushing Yards (excluding 2022):
(365 + 514 + 460 + 558 + 450) / 5= 469.4
Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 73 yards
This low variability (excluding 2022) indicates that Jones consistently contributes around 470 rushing yards per season, making 2022 an exceptional, rather than typical, year.

2. Rushing Touchdowns:
Jones' rushing touchdowns range from a low of 1 in 2020 to a high of 7 in 2022, with most seasons at 3.
Average Rushing TDs (excluding 2022):
(3 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 3) / 5=2.6
Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 0.9 TDs
With a standard deviation under 1, his rushing TDs also show consistency, typically in the range of 2-3 per season, aside from the standout 2022 year.


Conclusion
Excluding outliers like 2022 (a peak rushing year) and 2023 (a low passing year), Jones' passing and rushing stats fall within a narrow range year to year. The low variability in passing yards, touchdowns, and interceptions (barring certain outlier seasons) clearly indicated that he has maintained a consistent level of performance.

Typical of most starting QBs with 5+ seasons, there have been isolated high and low years, Daniel Jones' typical output has shown little change, as reflected in averages and standard deviations that indicate steadiness rather than significant year-to-year improvement or decline.  DJ is who he has always been. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:10:40 PMTim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.   While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

I think all of us here have expressed frustration with some of Daboll's decisions.

But my question to you is what do you see are the differences between the offense from 2022 and this year?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:10:40 PMTim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.  While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

This has been my feelings regarding play calling. Doesn't change the fact Jones cannot process or execute however.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 12:13:00 PMI'm not sure what stats you're using, but I assure you that I'm correct. Let's analyze the data for consistency in terms of both averages and variance across all seasons:

Passing Analysis:

Jones' passing yards range from a low of 2,506 in 2023 (an injury-affected season) to a high of 3,958 in 2019. Ignoring 2023 as an outlier, the other years have passing yards in the 3,400-3,900 range, showing relatively stable output.

1. Average Passing Yards (excluding 2023):
(3,958 + 3,576 + 3,749 + 3,405 + 3,519) / 5 = 3,641.4

Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 242 yards

With a small standard deviation (242 yards), his passing yards remain within a consistent range over most seasons, indicating no major year-to-year fluctuations.

2. Passing Touchdowns:

Jones' passing touchdowns vary from 6 (2023) to 32 (2019). However, excluding the two outliers (2019 and 2023), his TDs range between 13 and 16 over other seasons.

Average Passing TDs (excluding 2019 and 2023):
(13 + 15 + 16 + 14) / 4=14.5

Standard Deviation (excluding 2019 and 2023): Approx. 1.3 TDs

The low variability here suggests that, aside from his rookie year, Jones' passing touchdown output is steady around 14-15 per season.

3. Interceptions:

Jones' interceptions range from a low of 5 in 2022 to a high of 17 in 2023, though most years fall between 11 and 16.
Average INTs (excluding 2023):
(16 + 12 + 11 + 5 + 12) / 5=11.2

Standard Deviation (excluding 2023): Approx. 4.1 INTs

With a moderate standard deviation, his interceptions have some fluctuation but mostly stay around the 11-12 mark, reflecting stability in limiting turnovers.


Rushing Analysis:

1. Rushing Yards:

Jones' rushing yards show an increase in 2022 (752), but his other seasons range from 365 to 558.
Average Rushing Yards (excluding 2022):

(365 + 514 + 460 + 558 + 450) / 5= 469.4

Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 73 yards

This low variability (excluding 2022) indicates that Jones consistently contributes around 470 rushing yards per season, making 2022 an exceptional, rather than typical, year.

2. Rushing Touchdowns:

Jones' rushing touchdowns range from a low of 1 in 2020 to a high of 7 in 2022, with most seasons at 3.
Average Rushing TDs (excluding 2022):

(3 + 1 + 3 + 3 + 3) / 5=2.6

Standard Deviation (excluding 2022): Approx. 0.9 TDs
With a standard deviation under 1, his rushing TDs also show consistency, typically in the range of 2-3 per season, aside from the standout 2022 year.


Conclusion:
Excluding outliers like 2022 (a peak rushing year) and 2023 (a low passing year), Jones' passing and rushing stats fall within a narrow range year to year. The low variability in passing yards, touchdowns, and interceptions (barring certain outlier seasons) clearly indicated that he has maintained a consistent level of performance.

Typical of most starting QBs with 5+ seasons, there have been isolated high and low years, Daniel Jones' typical output has shown little change, as reflected in averages and standard deviations that indicate steadiness rather than significant year-to-year improvement or decline.

In my opinion, raw stats are not meaningful.  Scheme, run game, defense can all impact such stats, independent of QB performance.

I prefer stats that demonstrates efficiency like QB rating, QBR, EPA per attempt, etc.  It's even worth throwing in PFF grade.

Still I just did a study that reaches far beyond DJ. That found that Daboll historically has QBs perform below their career averages, which is exactly what we see from DJ

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:10:40 PMTim, I am listening to Bobby Skinner on his podcast.   While Bobby says DJ is the main culprit, he expressed serious frustration with the way Daboll is calling plays and how he abandoned successful concepts

I will also say that what Bobby said ("DJ is the main culprit and there are frustrations with Daboll's calls") are the EXACT things the majority of us have been saying but instead of acknowledging it, we get push back and deflection from you and Todge and SxD.

Your refusal to acknowledge DJ is the main culprit but citing Bobby saying the same thing says a lot.

Quote from: Trench on November 11, 2024, 12:14:06 PMThis has been my feelings regarding play calling. Doesn't change the fact Jones cannot process or execute however.

The offensive struggles can be attributed to both Daboll and DJ.  If we buy into the narrative that Daboll just needs his own QB, we will see more losing.  That said, regardless of management, this team is in a less than enviable position lacking talent, quality coaching, and no clear path to a franchise QB

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:21:07 PMI will also say that what Bobby said ("DJ is the main culprit and there are frustrations with Daboll's calls") are the EXACT things the majority of us have been saying but instead of acknowledging it, we just push back and deflection from you and Todge and SxD.

Your refusal to acknowledge DJ is the main culprit but citing Bobby saying the same thing says a lot.

It's the reverse.   I have acknowledged DJ isn't the answer, you and others are so focused on blaming DJ that you don't recognize the serious coaching problems.   Daboll was brought here as an offensive guru.  Yet here and elsewhere that isn't the case.   So what does Daboll bring to the table?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:20:10 PMIn my opinion, raw stats are not meaningful.  Scheme, run game, defense can all impact such stats, independent of QB performance.

I prefer stats that demonstrates efficiency like QB rating, QBR, EPA per attempt, etc.  It's even worth throwing in PFF grade.

Still I just did a study that reaches far beyond DJ. That found that Daboll historically has QBs perform below their career averages, which is exactly what we see from DJ

Eighteen months ago, while most—including you—were crediting Brian Daboll for Daniel Jones' development, I was among a few who argued it was merely an illusion. My view was grounded in statistical deviation analysis, as I outlined above.

Daboll remains the same coach who was previously fired after leading offenses ranked 31st, 20th, 32nd, and 30th in scoring. Like every offensive coordinator or head coach in the NFL, his success is heavily dependent on his starting quarterback. However, the quarterback's success is not as tightly bound to the influence of any specific coach or coordinator. In the past, I have gone as far as plotting the trajectory of every current OC and HC to prove this point.   

The Giants and DJ's trajectory has been easy to forecast. 

In contrast, can you explain why your views regarding Daboll have oscillated over the last 18 months?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 12:28:34 PMIt's the reverse.   I have acknowledged DJ isn't the answer, you and others are so focused on blaming DJ that you don't recognize the serious coaching problems.   Daboll was brought here as an offensive guru.  Yet here and elsewhere that isn't the case.   So what does Daboll bring to the table?

That's not what I said. You haven't acknowledged DJ is the main culprit. You've said DJ isn't the answer because he's a victim of circumstances (poor protection, no WR support, poor coaching, and injuries). There's a difference. Your responses strongly suggest that everyone else is the problem except DJ.

Plenty of us have called out Daboll. As much as I support him, my biggest knock on him is pulling double duty as the HC/OC. I've called him out on the unnecessary 2-point conversions, play calls, and time management. To say otherwise is not being honest in our conversations.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:13:43 PMI think all of us here have expressed frustration with some of Daboll's decisions.

But my question to you is what do you see are the differences between the offense from 2022 and this year?

@MightyGiants

I think this got lost in the shuffle.  I'm genuinely curious on your thoughts about the differences.

hate to sound like a coach and say "have to look at the tape"...but you cant help but feel like 25 other qb's EASILY make that throw.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:37:43 PMThat's not what I said. You haven't acknowledged DJ is the main culprit. You've said DJ isn't the answer because he's a victim of circumstances (poor protection, no WR support, poor coaching, and injuries). There's a difference. Your responses strongly suggest that everyone else is the problem except DJ.

Plenty of us have called out Daboll. As much as I support him, my biggest knock on him is pulling double duty as the HC/OC. I've called him out on the unnecessary 2-point conversions, play calls, and time management. To say otherwise is not being honest in our conversations.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on November 11, 2024, 01:16:20 PMhate to sound like a coach and say "have to look at the tape"...but you cant help but feel like 25 other qb's EASILY make that throw.

Honestly probably 30-40...

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:46:46 PM@MightyGiants

I think this got lost in the shuffle.  I'm genuinely curious on your thoughts about the differences.

I think there are two major differences between the far more successful 2022 offense and this totally dysfunctional offense

1)  coaching and scheme

2) DJ is broken

By broken, I mean he has the yips, he sees ghosts, it's PTSD, he's lost confidence, whatever you want to call it.  DJ isn't the same QB he was by the end of 2022.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:31:18 PMI think there are two major differences between the far more successful 2022 offense and this totally dysfunctional offense

1)  coaching and scheme

2) DJ is broken

By broken, I mean he has the yips, he sees ghosts, it's PTSD, he's lost confidence, whatever you want to call it.  DJ isn't the same QB he was by the end of 2022.

Can you elaborate on #1?

For #2, he only played 6 games before he got hurt, coming off his best season and a playoff win. His protection has been much better this year than even his 2022 version. What do you attribute his being broken to?

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 12:30:58 PMEighteen months ago, while most—including you—were crediting Brian Daboll for Daniel Jones' development, I was among a few who argued it was merely an illusion. My view was grounded in statistical deviation analysis, as I outlined above.

Daboll remains the same coach who was previously fired after leading offenses ranked 31st, 20th, 32nd, and 30th in scoring. Like every offensive coordinator or head coach in the NFL, his success is heavily dependent on his starting quarterback. However, the quarterback's success is not as tightly bound to the influence of any specific coach or coordinator. In the past, I have gone as far as plotting the trajectory of every current OC and HC to prove this point. 

The Giants and DJ's trajectory has been easy to forecast. 

In contrast, can you explain why your views regarding Daboll have oscillated over the last 18 months?

This is exactly what I put in the time to do statistical studies so I can learn what's really going on.  Because of that study I am able to recognize that these claims are not right.  First off no coach stays the same.  Coaches change every year.  They change because of league changes, because they want to improve, because their players and staff change, because they need to change things up to adapt to what opponents do and what opponents they will be facing.  Most coaches have huge binders of players.  They pair that binder down to a couple of hundred plays based on the offense they design in the offseason.

As to Daboll, my study is quite enlightening.  More often than not, a QB will underperform under Daboll. That goes for the Josh Allens/Brett Farves or the lesser QBs he worked with.  Still, there are times when things all go right for Daboll in a season and he will have a very good season from time to time.

QuoteHowever, the quarterback's success is not as tightly bound to the influence of any specific coach or coordinator

Neither I nor knowledgeable NFL people agree with that assertion. It's become conventional wisdom that a QB's performance is significantly impacted by the three pillars of support-  coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 12:21:07 PMI will also say that what Bobby said ("DJ is the main culprit and there are frustrations with Daboll's calls") are the EXACT things the majority of us have been saying but instead of acknowledging it, we just push back and deflection from you and Todge and SxD.

Your refusal to acknowledge DJ is the main culprit but citing Bobby saying the same thing says a lot.

Hi Tim,

Maybe you haven't seen any of my latest comments, especially yesterday, but after the game I've been saying that the Giants have the 2nd pick in the draft, and if there is a QB that they love, then I am on board with taking him and moving on from DJ.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 01:36:53 PMCan you elaborate on #1?

For #2, he only played 6 games before he got hurt, coming off his best season and a playoff win. His protection has been much better this year than even his 2022 version. What do you attribute his being broken to?

Daboll isn't doing a very good job calling plays, nor is his scheme a good fit for his QB.


As for number 2 a couple of thoughts.  First, Jones is near the top in terms of sacks and hits endured compared to other QBs over the same time frame, which isn't good for any QB (Derek Carr is the poster boy for that issue).  In 2023 he got the crap kicked out of him in some of those games, especially the Dallas game.  Worse, he suffered a 2nd major neck injury and then an ACL injury.

As for your comments about better protection this year, that's true. However, the damage is done in terms of his confidence, and better safety now doesn't fix that problem. Frankly, I was impressed that DJ was able to regain his confidence by the end of the 2022 season. I am not optimistic that he can regain it again after losing it in 2023.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:37:32 PMNeither I nor knowledgeable NFL people agree with that assertion. It's become conventional wisdom that a QB's performance is significantly impacted by the three pillars of support-  coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.

Ah, the classic appeal to authority fallacy. While you and the "knowledgeable NFL people" you listen to, projected Daniel Jones as a franchise quarterback, attributing his development to Coach Daboll, I took a different stance, challenging both assertions at the time. Given our contrasting track records, it appears that your critique is somewhat misdirected. 

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 01:45:42 PMAh, the classic appeal to authority fallacy. While you and the "knowledgeable NFL people" you listen to, projected Daniel Jones as a franchise quarterback, attributing his development to Coach Daboll, I took a different stance, challenging both assertions at the time. Given our contrasting track records, it appears that your critique is somewhat misdirected. 

Analytics also supports these positions, which is why we all hold them.  We don't just make up positions and then look for stats to support them; we look at the study and the stats and then reach our conclusions

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:42:36 PMDaboll isn't doing a very good job calling plays, nor is his scheme a good fit for his QB.


As for number 2 a couple of thoughts.  First, Jones is near the top in terms of sacks and hits endured compared to other QBs over the same time frame, which isn't good for any QB (Derek Carr is the poster boy for that issue).  In 2023 he got the crap kicked out of him in some of those games, especially the Dallas game.  Worse, he suffered a 2nd major neck injury and then an ACL injury.

This notion precludes the reality that the QB is shares culpability for sacks. 

From PFF:
One important factor is a quarterback's ability to read the defense, make quick decisions, and release the ball efficiently. For instance, some quarterbacks avoid sacks by quickly getting rid of the ball in response to pressure, leveraging their understanding of defensive schemes and their pocket presence. Players like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are examples of quarterbacks who consistently avoided sacks not because of superior mobility, but due to their quick decision-making and ability to read defenses�.  In contrast, DJ is terrible at both.

Form SHARP FOOTBALL ANALYSIS:
In addition, the time it takes a quarterback to release the ball is a critical factor. Research indicates that quarterbacks with quicker "snap-to-throw" times tend to avoid sacks more effectively. For example, quarterbacks such as Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes, who have relatively fast release times, are generally better at avoiding sacks compared to others who hold onto the ball longer�

FROM HUDL STATSBOMB | DATA CHAMPIONS:�
Metrics like sack avoidance and scramble rates also highlight how quarterbacks manage pressure. While some quarterbacks, like Justin Fields, tend to scramble more and risk being sacked more often, others such as Justin Herbert and Kirk Cousins exhibit strong sack avoidance while maintaining high performance�


While offensive line play certainly plays a major role in sack statistics, a quarterback's decision-making, time-to-throw, and ability to handle pressure are significant contributors to whether or not they are sacked.  DJ struggles in this area; thus, it's not a surprised he's sacked at a higher rate.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 01:50:54 PMThis notion precludes the reality that the QB is shares culpability for sacks. 

From PFF:
One important factor is a quarterback's ability to read the defense, make quick decisions, and release the ball efficiently. For instance, some quarterbacks avoid sacks by quickly getting rid of the ball in response to pressure, leveraging their understanding of defensive schemes and their pocket presence. Players like Peyton Manning and Drew Brees are examples of quarterbacks who consistently avoided sacks not because of superior mobility, but due to their quick decision-making and ability to read defenses�.  In contrast, DJ is terrible at both.

Form SHARP FOOTBALL ANALYSIS:
In addition, the time it takes a quarterback to release the ball is a critical factor. Research indicates that quarterbacks with quicker "snap-to-throw" times tend to avoid sacks more effectively. For example, quarterbacks such as Josh Allen and Patrick Mahomes, who have relatively fast release times, are generally better at avoiding sacks compared to others who hold onto the ball longer�

FROM HUDL STATSBOMB | DATA CHAMPIONS:�
Metrics like sack avoidance and scramble rates also highlight how quarterbacks manage pressure. While some quarterbacks, like Justin Fields, tend to scramble more and risk being sacked more often, others such as Justin Herbert and Kirk Cousins exhibit strong sack avoidance while maintaining high performance�


While offensive line play certainly plays a major role in sack statistics, a quarterback's decision-making, time-to-throw, and ability to handle pressure are significant contributors to whether or not they are sacked.  DJ struggles in this area; thus, it's not a surprised he's sacked at a higher rate.

This doesn't dispute the reality that a QB's performance is dependent on coaching/scheme, protection, and receivers.  Nor are any of the men you quoted people who work in the NFL

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:47:42 PMAnalytics also supports these positions, which is why we all hold them.  We don't just make up positions and then look for stats to support them; we look at the study and the stats and then reach our conclusions

Once again, you are critiquing my methodology, which produced an accurate analysis, while advocating for your own approach, which yielded incorrect results.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 01:55:03 PMOnce again, you are critiquing my methodology, which produced an accurate analysis, while advocating for your own approach, which yielded incorrect results.

Your studies tend to product results you like.  From what I have witnessed over the years, there are usually serious errors in omissions/inclusions as well as assumptions in your studies.  Look at the care I put into my studies.  I develop the methodology before finding out what results will be produced.  I provide careful reasoning as to why I include or omit data, what assumptions I am making, and how I justify those assumptions.

I take that care because I have limitless intellectual curiosity, and I am devoted to a lifetime of learning.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:58:30 PMI take that care because I have limitless intellectual curiosity, and I am devoted to a lifetime of learning.

It appears that we have transitioned from an appeal to authority to an appeal to ego fallacy. Given your previous stance on Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll just 18 months ago, I struggle to reconcile your current positions, which seem to be more focused on protecting your football acumen than on objective analysis.  It's not lost on me that your aggression is directed at those posters proven correct about DJ and Daboll's trajectory...

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 02:07:28 PMIt appears that we have transitioned from an appeal to authority to an appeal to ego fallacy. Given your previous stance on Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll just 18 months ago, I struggle to reconcile your current positions, which seem to be more focused on protecting your football acumen than on objective analysis.  It's not lost on me that your aggression is directed at those posters proven correct about DJ and Daboll's trajectory...

You can falsely accuse me of all sorts of nonsense.  None of it will change the reality that your methodology is almost always flawed, and your "studies" appear to be created after the fact to support one of your established beliefs rather than careful efforts to study the data to learn from the studies.

Edit to add-  I have seen you mock me and others you believe to be wrong in the past.  You seem more focused on proving yourself right and others wrong than trying to learn and identify what's really going on.

Quote from: Gmo11 on November 11, 2024, 09:47:19 AMIf Tracy is running to the right of the screen (towards the defender) then that's a drop.  If he's running full speed in the other direction and has to turn backwards to attempt to make that catch it becomes a hell of a lot more difficult.  Should he have caught it anyway?  Maybe, but even if he does he's getting tackled immediately whereas if the ball is put where it should be put he catches it in stride without a challenge and also as an added bonus is running away from the guy that's trying to tackle him so there could be yards after the catch too.

And which ever it was, it doesn't change the evaluation of Jones one whit.  It's like arguing if the ankle is sprained or broken while blood gushes out of an artery.

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 10:53:20 AMNon of this is new, he is the same guy he always was

And that is exactly the basis for those like me, who have given up on him, to continue to believe he might have been much more if the Giants hadn't had their heads up their butts.  The fact that he is the same guy he always was is a damning indictment of the teams inability to provide a reasonable develop environment and provide even the bare minimum of what it takes for a QB to thrive.  Even Eli couldn't overcome the Giants' incompetence as he went from a QB with a 60% winning percentage to one with a 40% winning percentage.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 11:24:50 AMExactly.  Daball didn't break DJ; he's is who he's proven to be for 8 years now.  The narrative is pressed by a few fans who simply don't want to admit they were been wrong about Jones for 3+ years. 

No, the breaking was done by Gettleman, Pat Schurmer, Joe Judge, and a plethora of OCs and QB coaches.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 11, 2024, 02:27:18 PMNo, the breaking was done by Gettleman, Pat Schurmer, Joe Judge, and a plethora of OCs and QB coaches.

I have often wondered if the Giants had somehow been able to keep Schurmer as his OC after his rookie season and if DJ would have turned out much better since Shurmer was the HC who drafted him.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on November 11, 2024, 02:23:53 PMAnd that is exactly the basis for those like me, who have given up on him, to continue to believe he might have been much more if the Giants hadn't had their heads up their butts.  The fact that he is the same guy he always was is a damning indictment of the teams inability to provide a reasonable develop environment and provide even the bare minimum of what it takes for a QB to thrive.  Even Eli couldn't overcome the Giants' incompetence as he went from a QB with a 60% winning percentage to one with a 40% winning percentage.

Excellent point; there is an argument to be made that Eli Manning is HOF worthy.  Yet even his considerable talents couldn't overcome the Giants dysfunction that marked the team after the miracle 2011 SB run.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 02:10:11 PMYou can falsely accuse me of all sorts of nonsense.  None of it will change the reality that your methodology is almost always flawed, and your "studies" appear to be created after the fact to support one of your established beliefs rather than careful efforts to study the data to learn from the studies.

Edit to add-  I have seen you mock me and others you believe to be wrong in the past.  You seem more focused on proving yourself right and others wrong than trying to learn and identify what's really going on.

First, what credentials do you have to declare anyone's methodologies as flawed? Additionally, how do you reconcile the fact that your 'superior' methodologies have yielded widely inaccurate results, while others have correctly assessed Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll? One would think that someone with 'endless curiosity' might consider whether the methodology that produced more accurate results might, in fact, be superior to their own.

As for the claim that the analysis was done 'after the fact,' that is simply false, and you know it.

After you declared that Daniel Jones was a franchise quarterback, you sent me the following direct message to take a victory lap:

When you talked about the same old discussions, I went back to look at your older posts.  This was the one that struck me:

Quote from: kingm56 on November 03, 2020, 11:17:41 AM
I completely agree, Kat!  I think the best we can hope for is a middle of the pack QB; in fact, I just completed an analysis of all 1st round QBs taken post 2013.  None of those QBs matured into anything more than they demonstrated after their first 20 games.  Those waiting for Jones to become something he's incapable of are going to be disappointed; after all, Jones was the SAME QB at Duke.  He was hardly a proficient passer; only amassing a handful of 300+ yard games, while still turning the ball over at a high rate.  Jones was a bad pick, which I hope our next GM corrects this Spring.


One of the defining attributes of someone who claims to "possess limitless intellectual curiosity" is the ability to admit when they are wrong. This, however, seems to be beyond your capacity. Instead, you appear more focused on defending your previous analysis rather than reassessing it in light of new information. 

Finally, stop conflating challenging your football acumen as an "attack."

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 02:57:48 PMFirst, what credentials do you have to declare anyone's methodologies as flawed? Additionally, how do you reconcile the fact that your 'superior' methodologies have yielded widely inaccurate results, while others have correctly assessed Daniel Jones and Brian Daboll? One would think that someone with 'endless curiosity' might consider whether the methodology that produced more accurate results might, in fact, be superior to their own.

As for the claim that the analysis was done 'after the fact,' that is simply false, and you know it.

After you declared that Daniel Jones was a franchise quarterback, you sent me the following direct message to take a victory lap:

When you talked about the same old discussions, I went back to look at your older posts.  This was the one that struck me:

Quote from: kingm56 on November 03, 2020, 11:17:41 AM
I completely agree, Kat!  I think the best we can hope for is a middle of the pack QB; in fact, I just completed an analysis of all 1st round QBs taken post 2013.  None of those QBs matured into anything more than they demonstrated after their first 20 games.  Those waiting for Jones to become something he's incapable of are going to be disappointed; after all, Jones was the SAME QB at Duke.  He was hardly a proficient passer; only amassing a handful of 300+ yard games, while still turning the ball over at a high rate.  Jones was a bad pick, which I hope our next GM corrects this Spring.


One of the defining attributes of someone who claims to possess limitless intellectual curiosity is the ability to admit when they are wrong. This, however, seems to be beyond your capacity. Instead, you appear more focused on defending your previous analysis rather than reassessing it in light of new information. 

Finally, stop conflating challenging your football acumen as an "attack."

First, my math skills were good enough to be tapped for the math team in high school.  I have a degree in engineering from an elite college and engineering is the art of converting the real world into numbers.

Second my football knowledge

Years ago, I made sure I wasn't missing any information by starting with Football for Dummies by Howie Long and Football Guide for Idiots by Joe Theismann

Having ensured, I had the vocabulary and the all the basics covered, I dived into many books over the years

I have read all three books by Tom Coughlin

I have read the book written by Ernie Accorsi

I have read the two books written by Bill Polian

I have read the book written by Phil Simms about football

I have read the advanced book by Pat Kirwan about football

Football is a numbers game by Matt Coller

I have read the two books written by Mike Lombardi on football

I read the book written about scouting by former Giants Scout Steve Verdosa

I read The Art of Smart Football by Chris Bown

The book written by Bruce Arians

The Draft a year inside the NFL draft by Pete Williams

Ron Jaworski-  Games That Have Changed the Game

Bill Parcells-  A Football Life

A book about PFF

The physics of football by Timmothy Gay PHD

Scout Speak: thinking and talking about being an NFL evaluator by Neil Stratton

The Big Book of Bill Belichick by Alex Kirby

I am sure I have forgotten to list a few others


I also purchased a dozen coaching DVDs to learn more about the game

I have listened to countless hours of Podcasts from former NFL People like

Bill Polian
Mike Lombardi
Randy Mueller
Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah
Ross Tucker
Pat Kirwan (via NFL radio)
Phil Simms (and his sons)
Carl Banks
Howard Cross
Johnathon Cassius
Mike Tanebuem
Greg Gabriel
Greg Cossell (technically not NFL, but NFL adjacent)
again, I am sure I am missing a few other NFL people I have listened to and learned from

I also took an online scouting class given by Greg Gabriel.


As for occasionally being wrong, I am not like you; I don't mock people who are wrong. I am not so conceited as to believe I am not like the rest of mankind, that I am perfect, and that I never make a mistake.


So I am more than comfortable with my credentials, and I don't pretend to be perfect nor do I think the occasional mistake is worthy of mocking or belittling people (and you clearly believe) nor do I think mistakes negate the credentials or the hard work and time (and money) it took to earn that knowledge.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:42:36 PMDaboll isn't doing a very good job calling plays, nor is his scheme a good fit for his QB.


As for number 2 a couple of thoughts.  First, Jones is near the top in terms of sacks and hits endured compared to other QBs over the same time frame, which isn't good for any QB (Derek Carr is the poster boy for that issue).  In 2023 he got the crap kicked out of him in some of those games, especially the Dallas game.  Worse, he suffered a 2nd major neck injury and then an ACL injury.

As for your comments about better protection this year, that's true. However, the damage is done in terms of his confidence, and better safety now doesn't fix that problem. Frankly, I was impressed that DJ was able to regain his confidence by the end of the 2022 season. I am not optimistic that he can regain it again after losing it in 2023.

I appreciate your response.

Do you feel this season was doomed from the start since you feel he lost it last season?

Regarding Daboll and his scheme, what do you see as being different from '22?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 03:26:19 PMFirst, my math skills were good enough to be tapped for the math team in high school.  I have a degree in engineering from an elite college and engineering is the art of converting the real world into numbers.

Second my football knowledge

Years ago, I made sure I wasn't missing any information by starting with Football for Dummies by Howie Long and Football Guide for Idiots by Joe Theismann

Having ensured, I had the vocabulary and the all the basics covered, I dived into many books over the years

I have read all three books by Tom Coughlin

I have read the book written by Ernie Accorsi

I have read the two books written by Bill Polian

I have read the book written by Phil Simms about football

I have read the advanced book by Pat Kirwan about football

Football is a numbers game by Matt Coller

I have read the two books written by Mike Lombardi on football

I read the book written about scouting by former Giants Scout Steve Verdosa

I read The Art of Smart Football by Chris Bown

The book written by Bruce Arians

The Draft a year inside the NFL draft by Pete Williams

Ron Jaworski-  Games That Have Changed the Game

Bill Parcells-  A Football Life

A book about PFF

The physics of football by Timmothy Gay PHD

Scout Speak: thinking and talking about being an NFL evaluator by Neil Stratton

The Big Book of Bill Belichick by Alex Kirby

I am sure I have forgotten to list a few others


I also purchased a dozen coaching DVDs to learn more about the game

I have listened to countless hours of Podcasts from former NFL People like

Bill Polian
Mike Lombardi
Randy Mueller
Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah
Ross Tucker
Pat Kirwan (via NFL radio)
Phil Simms (and his sons)
Carl Banks
Howard Cross
Johnathon Cassius
Mike Tanebuem
Greg Gabriel
Greg Cossell (technically not NFL, but NFL adjacent)
again, I am sure I am missing a few other NFL people I have listened to and learned from

I also took an online scouting class given by Greg Gabriel.


As for occasionally being wrong, I am not like you; I don't mock people who are wrong. I am not so conceited as to believe I am not like the rest of mankind, that I am perfect, and that I never make a mistake.


So I am more than comfortable with my credentials, and I don't pretend to be perfect nor do I think the occasional mistake is worthy of mocking or belittling people (and you clearly believe) nor do I think mistakes negate the credentials or the hard work and time (and money) it took to earn that knowledge.

Your academic credentials, including your engineering degree, are well recognized. However, have you considered my credential may equal or exceed your own? Moreover, having credentials does not automatically make every analysis or conclusion we draw infallible. Acknowledging when our arguments are wrong is fundamental to intellectual growth, yet it seems you are more focused on defending a position than reassessing it when evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

It's fine to admit that no one is perfect, but when one's methodology repeatedly produces inaccurate results, continuing to defend it without reconsideration reflects a lack of intellectual honesty. Rather than admitting errors, you seem more committed to preserving your earlier positions, which diminishes the value of true intellectual curiosity.  At a minimum, I would recommend avoiding critizing others until your track record improves.

Furthermore, your suggestion that you don't mock people who are wrong is undermined when your responses seem designed to dismiss others rather than engage constructively. There's a difference between acknowledging a mistake and doubling down on flawed conclusions just to avoid the discomfort of revision. At this point, your defense is no longer about accuracy but about saving face. Mistakes should lead to better understanding, not to entrenched positions.

Also, I completely reject the notion I mocked you!
Mocking: "making fun of someone or something in a cruel way."
It's football!! How could criticizing your football acumen be perceived as cruel!?

You've made a number of claims over the past four years regarding Daniel Jones, Brian Daboll, and other football-related assessments. Your track record has not been strong, and that, in my view, is a key reason to encourage you to consider alternative methods of analysis. Data and results matter. When your predictions consistently miss the mark, it's reasonable to question whether the underlying assumptions and methodologies need to be revisited. To persist in defending them without reconsideration can undermine the intellectual process.

Considering your track record is not an attack on your character or credentials; it's a call for a shift to your analytical approach.  Perhaps the pundits you listen to, which are finically and personally motivated to promote thier importance have led you astray?  BL, If your past results have been inaccurate, it's not only reasonable to highlight them but also essential to recognize that change could improve future analyses.

I will concede the last word to you, as future discussion will be fruitless.  I would request you decouple disagreeing with you on football matters/acumen from an "attack."  I have not attacked you....

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 03:57:45 PMI appreciate your response.

Do you feel this season was doomed from the start since you feel he lost it last season?

Regarding Daboll and his scheme, what do you see as being different from '22?

Tim,

I am not sure I can directly answer question one.   I can say I saw a confident and effective QB in Jones at the end of 2022 and in the 2023 training camp and PS.   After the Dallas beating, he didn't look the same.  He appeared skittish and lacking in the confidence he had gained.   I don't know if the team was doomed in 2024, but I can say that the Jones I saw in training camp and the PS didn't appear to be all that confident or comfortable.  I hoped his confidence and effectiveness would come around, but I wasn't overly optimistic.

As for question two, I would have to do a lot of work and study to give a proper answer.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 04:21:17 PMYour academic credentials, including your engineering degree, are well recognized. However, have you considered my credential may equal or exceed your own? Moreover, having credentials does not automatically make every analysis or conclusion you draw infallible. Acknowledging when an argument is wrong is fundamental to intellectual growth, yet it seems you are more focused on defending a position than reassessing it when evidence clearly suggests otherwise.

It's fine to admit that no one is perfect, but when one's methodology repeatedly produces inaccurate results, continuing to defend it without reconsideration reflects a lack of intellectual honesty. Rather than admitting errors, you seem more committed to preserving your earlier positions, which diminishes the value of true intellectual curiosity.  At a minimum, I would recommend avoiding critizing others until your track record improves.

Furthermore, your suggestion that you don't mock people who are wrong is undermined when your responses seem designed to dismiss others rather than engage constructively. There's a difference between acknowledging a mistake and doubling down on flawed conclusions just to avoid the discomfort of revision. At this point, your defense is no longer about accuracy but about saving face. Mistakes should lead to better understanding, not to entrenched positions.

Also, I completely reject the notion I mocked you!
Mocking: "making fun of someone or something in a cruel way."
It's football!! How could criticizing your football acumen be perceived as cruel!?

You've made a number of claims over the past four years regarding Daniel Jones, Brian Daboll, and other football-related assessments. Your track record has not been strong, and that, in my view, is a key reason to encourage you to consider alternative methods of analysis. Data and results matter. When your predictions consistently miss the mark, it's reasonable to question whether the underlying assumptions and methodologies need to be revisited. To persist in defending them without reconsideration can undermine the intellectual process.

Considering your track record is not an attack on your character or credentials; it's a call for a shift to your analytical approach.  Perhaps the pundits you listen to, which are finically and personally motivated to promote thier importance have led you astray?  BL, If your past results have been inaccurate, it's not only reasonable to highlight them but also essential to recognize that change could improve future analyses.

I will concede the last word to you, as future discussion will be fruitless.  I would request you decouple disagreeing with you on football matters/acumen from an "attack."  I have not attacked you....

You challenged my credentials; I didn't challenge yours.  Nor did I provide an inaccurate assessment of your track record as you have done to me (it goes to your need to believe you are right instead of getting it right).   I know you take great offense when I point out flaws in the methodology of your "studies", but I also feel that letting bad information go uncorrected is not ideal.

The idea that I am ignorant about football and I need your guidance is frankly laughable as your efforts to insult my track record and football knowledge.

I think the primary difference between us is you pretend to be perfect, while I don't believe that is even possible.   Then again, you prop up your flawed arguments, assertions, and studies by falsely claiming superiority by pretending you are always right.  I am more than comfortable in my own skin and with my credentials so I don't have to pretend to be perfect nor do I have to mischaracterize other people's track records in an effort to belittle them.

As Greg Gabriel likes to say "it's more important to get it right, then being right"

Frankly it be a lot more peaceful if people, such as yourself, weren't hung up on the whole you were wrong and I was right thing

Rich

Jones is the same QB as he was at end of 2022

If you watch the film the same mistakes are being made , due to the same reasons.

Your entitled to your opinion but no matter how many times you repeat doesn't make it correct


Btw - I never wanted more for DJ to rise up , I wish more than ever the QB1 job could be solidified
I was rooting more than ever in 2022 and in 2023 and didn't give up in 2024

Call me a DJ hater all you want but it really says more about your stance than mind

But I'm sorry his film shows the same mistakes as 19,20 and 2021.

He didn't change and that's the problem, he failed to develop

Quote from: babywhales on November 11, 2024, 04:45:43 PMRich

Jones is the same QB as he was at end of 2022

If you watch the film the same mistakes are being made , due to the same reasons.

Your entitled to your opinion but no matter how many times you repeat doesn't make it correct


Btw - I never wanted more for DJ to rise up , I wish more than ever the QB1 job could be solidified
I was rooting more than ever in 2022 and in 2023 and didn't give up in 2024

Call me a DJ hater all you want but it really says more about your stance than mind

But I'm sorry his film shows the same mistakes as 19,20 and 2021.

He didn't change and that's the problem, he failed to develop

Chris,

I haven't seen what you have seen, so I don't agree.  Almost all the issues I have seen with Jones recently can be contributed to a lack of coolness under pressure.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 04:38:03 PMYou challenged my credentials; I didn't challenge yours.  Nor did I provide an inaccurate assessment of your track record as you have done to me (it goes to your need to believe you are right instead of getting it right).   I know you take great offense when I point out flaws in the methodology of your "studies", but I also feel that letting bad information go uncorrected is not ideal.

The idea that I am ignorant about football and I need your guidance is frankly laughable as your efforts to insult my track record and football knowledge.

I think the primary difference between us is you pretend to be perfect, while I don't believe that is even possible.   Then again, you prop up your flawed arguments, assertions, and studies by falsely claiming superiority by pretending you are always right.  I am more than comfortable in my own skin and with my credentials so I don't have to pretend to be perfect nor do I have to mischaracterize other people's track records in an effort to belittle them.

As Greg Gabriel likes to say "it's more important to get it right, then being right"

Frankly it be a lot more peaceful if people, such as yourself, weren't hung up on the whole you were wrong and I was right thing

I was prepared to concede, but your hypocritical comments need to be addressed.

In terms of the New York Giants, can you name a single instance where you admitted to being wrong? Do any long-time members recall Rich acknowledging he was wrong? You may have done so, but I can't recall any instance where you have, despite being given some high profile opportunities to do so (e.g. Davis Webb and DJ). I haven't misrepresented your track record and would be glad to iterate through it; however, I don't wish to be viewed as mocking you.  Perhaps sending you a DM, like you did when attempting to "mock" me regarding DJ is more appropriate?

Your recent comments suggest you might be guilty of the same actions you criticize me of, and forms the genesis of this response. Consider this thread:

https://giantsfans.net/message_board/index.php?topic=71340.0

Not a single poster supports your methodology; yet, instead of genuinely considering their points, you dismiss them outright, which is symptomatic of an egocentric bias.  More to the point, you seem more "concerned with being right, than getting it right." It's also worth noting that only one other poster (@Sdx) has made the same accusations against me as you have. In contrast, I'd need more fingers and toes to count the number of posters who have pointed out your need to be right.   

As for me, I've never claimed to be infallible and have openly admitted my mistakes. Recently, I was against signing Okereke and overestimated Bellinger's potential as a pass-catcher. I also predicted only 6-7 wins in 2022 and did not foresee a playoff appearance. Outside of Giants predictions, I may have been wrong about Sam Darnold, though his last three games have been underwhelming.  There could be more, but those are areas that immediately come to mind; I invite others to chime in if I missed any.

Finally, I never claimed you were "ignorant about football." Your football knowledge is impressive and exceeds my own.  What I stated is your conclusions have been poor and/or have oscillated to support the narrative that DJs failures are a byproduct of his environment.

Add another to the growing list of excuses for Jones, now it's Daboll's fault. Now Daboll isn't as great as his press clippings and since Josh Allen didn't have MVP years his first couple of years, Daboll didn't do a great job over there.

Look, for sure, I am not a fan of Daboll, but he has tried everything possible to try and make Jones a quality starter in the NFL. You simply cannot spin gold out of straw. So Jones is now 'broken'. He was 'broken' way before this. Yes, he came onto the scene and gave us hope, but once the DCs got the book on him, his glory was deflated. Once again, Daboll designed something to try and fit what Jones does right and it worked until the DCs figured that out also. If Daboll wasn't our coach in 2022, Jones would have been hearing boos then also, but its now Dabolls fault.

Let's face facts, Jones is just a horrible QB, but those who think otherwise keep deflecting his faults onto others. As for all the supposed other teams that were lining up to draft Jones had not Gettleman scooped him up at #6, they are probably dancing in the street for the past 6 years.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 01:42:16 PMHi Tim,

Maybe you haven't seen any of my latest comments, especially yesterday, but after the game I've been saying that the Giants have the 2nd pick in the draft, and if there is a QB that they love, then I am on board with taking him and moving on from DJ.

That's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 08:47:43 PMThat's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

Actually, yesterday I said that there were multiple throws that were behind receivers, some were actually thrown in the dirt a few feet in front them, and his first pass was actually air mailed way over Nabers head.

However, his last drive which set them up for a field goal drive was actually quite good.

So, as you can see, I've been reasonable and balanced here, as I see both sides.

In the end we need to remember that this was an evaluation year for Daniel Jones.

He was provided with a #1 receiver, and his offensive line has been better than in the past.

The question that needed to be answered was with these tools could he be the franchise QB for the next ten years? Or do we need to release him and look for someone else?

I believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 08:47:43 PMThat's not the same as acknowledging the current problem we have at QB.

As much as I support Daboll, I don't have a problem calling him out.

With Jones, you guys don't hold him accountable when he routinely is off-target with his passes and delight when his receivers bail him out and roast them when they don't. It's rarely DJ's fault when we read your posts.

It is what it is.

To your point and I'm not sure it's been discussed or not (is it possible anything hasn't yet been discussed on Jones)?

Has anyone noticed there have been many many more passes this year which are literally thrown at players feet - even short passes. It's so bizarre to me because it is something "new" as far as I can remember

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 09:55:04 PMI believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

Daball and Schoen came to that conclusion years ago, which is why they chose not to pick up his 5th year option, signed him to a contract with a 2-year out, and attempted to trade with NE to acquire his replacement.  The only reason DJ is still on the team is because in 2 of 3 draft, there wasn't a QB they liked at the position they drafted.  That's why I'm willing to give Schoen another season; he was correct about DJ.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 09:55:04 PMActually, yesterday I said that there were multiple throws that were behind receivers, some were actually thrown in the dirt a few feet in front them, and his first pass was actually air mailed way over Nabers head.

However, his last drive which set them up for a field goal drive was actually quite good.

So, as you can see, I've been reasonable and balanced here, as I see both sides.

In the end we need to remember that this was an evaluation year for Daniel Jones.

He was provided with a #1 receiver, and his offensive line has been better than in the past.

The question that needed to be answered was with these tools could he be the franchise QB for the next ten years? Or do we need to release him and look for someone else?

I believe after putting the claim to the test, we can safely say it's best to move on, and I believe Mara and Daboll are also coming to that same conclusion as well, but it took time to be able to bring out the correct answer.

That's good to see that you've come around. I do recall that you also cautioned us to not be rash and let the season play out as that is what you were going to do before making up your mind.

So, I'm curious... what changed for you?

J.T. O'Sullivan did his live Q&A today. One of the questions was "Is Daniel Jones finished!" His response was that he's been finished. He has no desire to review or even watch a game. Quite frankly or to be brutally frank, I don't recall him doing a breakdown of Jones in at least a year.

My assessment of Daboll's play calling is that he runs what he needs to for Jones. He's been inserting more Runs and he's been trying to come up with plays for YAC, but there is a lack of execution. I suspect there is a lot more he would do if he had a QB who could throw with anticipation. It's at the point where it's almost Dave Brown like. When Kerry Collins came on the scene it seemed almost electrifying in how he was hitting Receivers in stride. Jones attempts at doing this have resulted in these off target passes. So he hits checkdowns, comebacks and soft spot sits in Zone. Even the deep throws are usually off target. On the Penalty where Jalin got mugged, he had his man beat but if it was clean, he still would have had to make a diving catch.

I don't know if Daboll is creative and innovative as a play caller because he and Kafka haven't had the opportunity to show it. Most of you here slammed Garrett's calls as vanilla and Shurmur did a lot of one or two read plays. Someone mentioned Daboll as the common denominator but with all due respect, the target was way off as Jones' passes have been.

I'm not sure if it was Mitch or Joseph who said that when a team drafts a QB, they usually will make a change that year in the HC. That's a real possibility. Perhaps Brian's song is he Petered (PP) out as an OC. His next gig will likely be that. It's going to get very ugly for the rest of this season and I don't think John Mara has the stomach for it, as Messiah said.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2024, 10:27:01 PMJ.T. Sullivan did his live Q&A today. One of the questions was "Is Daniel Jones finished!" His response was that he's been finished. He has no desire to review or even watch a game. Quite frankly or to be brutally frank, I don't recall him doing a breakdown of Jones in at least a year.

My assessment of Daboll's play calling is that he runs what he needs to for Jones. He's been inserting more Runs and he's been trying to come up with plays for YAC, but there is a lack of execution. I suspect there is a lot more he would do if he had a QB who could throw with anticipation. It's at the point where it's almost Dave Brown like. When Kerry Collins came on the scene it seemed almost electrifying in how he was hitting Receivers in stride. Jones attempts at doing this have resulted in these off target passes. So he hits checkdowns, comebacks and soft spot sits in Zone. Even the deep throws are usually off target. On the Penalty where Jalin got mugged, he had his man beat but if it was clean, he still would have had to make a diving catch.

I don't know if Daboll is creative and innovative as a play caller because he and Kafka haven't had the opportunity to show it. Most of you here slammed Garrett's calls as vanilla and Shurmur did a lot of one or two read plays. Someone mentioned Daboll as the common denominator but with all due respect, the target was way off as Jones' passes have been.

I'm not sure if it was Mitch or Joseph who said that when a team drafts a QB, they usually will make a change that year in the HC. That's a real possibility. Perhaps Brian's song is he Petered (PP) out as an OC. His next gig will likely be that. It's going to get very ugly for the rest of this season and I don't think John Mara has the stomach for it, as Messiah said.

Great post, Ed.

My hope is that Daboll doesn't lose the team and gets his shot with his own QB.

As to Mara, someone needs to tell him in no uncertain terms that this is the mess that he himself created and he needs to let Schoen and Daboll fix it.

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 11, 2024, 10:27:01 PMJ.T. O'Sullivan did his live Q&A today. One of the questions was "Is Daniel Jones finished!" His response was that he's been finished. He has no desire to review or even watch a game. Quite frankly or to be brutally frank, I don't recall him doing a breakdown of Jones in at least a year.

My assessment of Daboll's play calling is that he runs what he needs to for Jones. He's been inserting more Runs and he's been trying to come up with plays for YAC, but there is a lack of execution. I suspect there is a lot more he would do if he had a QB who could throw with anticipation. It's at the point where it's almost Dave Brown like. When Kerry Collins came on the scene it seemed almost electrifying in how he was hitting Receivers in stride. Jones attempts at doing this have resulted in these off target passes. So he hits checkdowns, comebacks and soft spot sits in Zone. Even the deep throws are usually off target. On the Penalty where Jalin got mugged, he had his man beat but if it was clean, he still would have had to make a diving catch.

I don't know if Daboll is creative and innovative as a play caller because he and Kafka haven't had the opportunity to show it. Most of you here slammed Garrett's calls as vanilla and Shurmur did a lot of one or two read plays. Someone mentioned Daboll as the common denominator but with all due respect, the target was way off as Jones' passes have been.

I'm not sure if it was Mitch or Joseph who said that when a team drafts a QB, they usually will make a change that year in the HC. That's a real possibility. Perhaps Brian's song is he Petered (PP) out as an OC. His next gig will likely be that. It's going to get very ugly for the rest of this season and I don't think John Mara has the stomach for it, as Messiah said.

I agree with Tim—great post, Ed. I don't agree with firing Daboll, but if they chose to go that route, I'd understand. That said, Schoen should absolutely stay; his 2024 draft class has been well above average.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 10:08:44 PMDaball and Schoen came to that conclusion years ago, which is why they chose not to pick up his 5th year option, signed him to a contract with a 2-year out, and attempted to trade with NE to acquire his replacement.  The only reason DJ is still on the team is because in 2 of 3 draft, there wasn't a QB they liked at the position they drafted.  That's why I'm willing to give Schoen another season; he was correct about DJ.

I would agree with you that they declined his 5th year option originally because at that time they didn't think he was the right fit.

However, after working with Daniel during the 2022 year, and seeing what Daboll was able to do with him, they decided to re-sign him.

I believe at that time they thought they could win with him.

However, I agree that they really wanted Jayden Daniels, but there was no way they could have gotten him. Drake Maye probably was on the table as well, but New England wasn't going to trade the pick either.

So, they made the best decision possible, and that was to give Daniel Jones a legitimate #1 WR in Nabers, and to see if he could carry them.

As the year has played out, it has become clear that they need to move on and try to find the answer at QB.

Maybe they draft one in 2025 but definitely no later than 2026, in my opinion.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 10:22:52 PMThat's good to see that you've come around. I do recall that you also cautioned us to not be rash and let the season play out as that is what you were going to do before making up your mind.

So, I'm curious... what changed for you?

Once again, thank you Tim for your kind words, they mean a lot.

It wasn't just one game, but several of them.

The end of the Pittsburgh game, he had a chance to win the game with two minutes left and he threw a terrible interception way over the RB's head.

Last game he was missing wide open guys, throwing balls in the dirt to low. Threw an interception right off the panther's defenders' helmet, popped up for a pick.

Finally, when the play breaks down, he cannot create something out of nothing, when the great ones can, and he really struggles with accuracy when he's on the move throwing the ball.

Let me say this, do I think Daniel Jones is a terrible QB? No, I do not.

However, do I think he is great? Absolutely not.

He's better than Dave Brown from the 90's, but he's not the answer moving forward.

If the Giants keep up the losing and get the 2nd pick in the draft, the right move is to draft a new QB, release DJ and save over 40 million in cap space, and try to reload at the QB position.

It hurts to say it because we all invested six years into DJ, but its better to cut your losses now, than double down for another 3-4 years. Let's move forward and try to find the right guy at the most important position.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on November 11, 2024, 10:54:27 PMOnce again, thank you Tim for your kind words, they mean a lot.

It wasn't just one game, but several of them.

The end of the Pittsburgh game, he had a chance to win the game with two minutes left and he threw a terrible interception way over the RB's head.

Last game he was missing wide open guys, throwing balls in the dirt to low. Threw an interception right off the panther's defenders' helmet, popped up for a pick.

Finally, when the play breaks down, he cannot create something out of nothing, when the great ones can, and he really struggles with accuracy when he's on the move throwing the ball.

Let me say this, do I think Daniel Jones is a terrible QB? No, I do not.

However, do I think he is great? Absolutely not.

He's better than Dave Brown from the 90's, but he's not the answer moving forward.

If the Giants keep up the losing and get the 2nd pick in the draft, the right move is to draft a new QB, release DJ and save over 40 million in cap space, and try to reload at the QB position.

It hurts to say it because we all invested six years into DJ, but its better to cut your losses now, than double down for another 3-4 years. Let's move forward and try to find the right guy at the most important position.

Kudos to you for being objective and open-minded enough to really watch his play and his effect on the team both good and bad.

Quote from: T200 on November 11, 2024, 10:59:43 PMKudos to you for being objective and open-minded enough to really watch his play and his effect on the team both good and bad.

Thank you my friend

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 11, 2024, 01:31:18 PMI think there are two major differences between the far more successful 2022 offense and this totally dysfunctional offense

1)  coaching and scheme

2) DJ is broken

By broken, I mean he has the yips, he sees ghosts, it's PTSD, he's lost confidence, whatever you want to call it.  DJ isn't the same QB he was by the end of 2022.

All true. He just falls short where it matters. inaccurate throws, late reads... its just not going to cut it.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 11, 2024, 05:59:21 PMNot a single poster supports your methodology

This is exactly the sort of flawed thinking that frustrates me.  It's sort of hypocritical of you to accuse me of employing logical fallacies only to turn around and engage in a textbook example of Ad populum fallacy.


The logical fallacy of arguing that everyone agrees with you is called the ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy:
 
Explanation: This fallacy occurs when someone argues that a belief or action is correct because the majority of people support it. It takes advantage of the desire to fit in and be liked, which is known as the "bandwagon effect"

You didn't identify and explain a flaw in my methodology (which I make easy to do since I explain my methodology and lay out my assumptions), but rather you simply feel I must be wrong because people whose prior opinions would be disputed due to the study, objected to the results.  That's really not good way of doing things, in my opinion. 

Look, I don't want to be fighting you.  I appreciate you tossed my last olive branch (via PM) right back into my face, but I don't want to be at odds with you.  I would like to be able to discuss things with you in an intelligent, respectful, and non-challenging manner.  I want to talk about our ideas and assertions.  I don't want to get into pissing contests about past records or credentials.  While I am a man who is appreciative of expertise, when we have discussions, I think our ideas should stand on the supporting arguments.   I think you are an intelligent man, and I don't see any malice in you.   We should be getting along great, not having these discussions.