Ryan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
2 conflicting #Giants narratives I keep seeing/hearing
"Daniel Jones never should've been the No. 6 pick. That was a big mistake."
But then ...
"Giants have to draft their next QB this year. Take a shot even if it's supposed to be a weak class."
Um ... if that's the case, what do you think you might be saying in 2027-28?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, same with teams and drafting Qbs.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 02:59:25 PMRyan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
2 conflicting #Giants narratives I keep seeing/hearing
"Daniel Jones never should've been the No. 6 pick. That was a big mistake."
But then ...
"Giants have to draft their next QB this year. Take a shot even if it's supposed to be a weak class."
Um ... if that's the case, what do you think you might be saying in 2027-28?
Ryan Dunleavy can go pound sand. I hate it when people take two and two and come up with 37. One has nothing to do with the other. It's an insult to our intelligence.
Regarding the "weak class" statement, who determines that? Based on what? At the end of the day, it's still someone's opinion, not fact.
If any GM/HC sees value and quality in a player, they will pick them. How it turns out can never be accurately predicted. Research and homework is done and a decision is made. All of this second-guessing and projecting is nauseating.
Quote from: T200 on November 13, 2024, 03:11:19 PMRyan Dunleavy can go pound sand. I hate it when people take two and two and come up with 37. One has nothing to do with the other. It's an insult to our intelligence.
Regarding the "weak class" statement, who determines that? Based on what? At the end of the day, it's still someone's opinion, not fact.
If any GM/HC sees value and quality in a player, they will pick them. How it turns out can never be accurately predicted. Research and homework is done and a decision is made. All of this second-guessing and projecting is nauseating.
Tim,
In fairness, on Twitter, I have seen many fan posts with variations of the message- "the Giants need to draft a QB this draft even if it's not a strong QB class." They expressed, "not a strong QB class." It is simply a qualifier concerning that even if the class isn't strong, they need to take the chance.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:16:40 PMTim,
In fairness, on Twitter, I have seen many fan posts with variations of the message- "the Giants need to draft a QB this draft even if it's not a strong QB class." They expressed, "not a strong QB class." It is simply a qualifier concerning that even if the class isn't strong, they need to take the chance.
We're all fans and entitled to our opinions. Doesn't mean they all hold the same value.
I'm sure some of those same fans suggesting drafting a QB, any QB, wanted one this past year too. I trust Schoen and Daboll. The QB has to be someone they believe they can work with that will elevate this offense and this team. Let them pick them and then hold them accountable if it doesn't work out. Jones was Mara's and Gettleman's pick. It's not fair handicap them with someone else's luggage and expect them to do something the previous guys couldn't do.
Quote from: T200 on November 13, 2024, 03:21:41 PMWe're all fans and entitled to our opinions. Doesn't mean they all hold the same value.
I'm sure some of those same fans suggesting drafting a QB, any QB, wanted one this past year too. I trust Schoen and Daboll. The QB has to be someone they believe they can work with that will elevate this offense and this team. Let them pick them and then hold them accountable if it doesn't work out. Jones was Mara's and Gettleman's pick. It's not fair handicap them with someone else's luggage and expect them to do something the previous guys couldn't do.
To the part in bold, you are only 1/3 correct. In 2022 you were correct. In 2023 and 2024, Daniel Jones was on the roster because of decisions made by Schoen and Daboll.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:27:10 PMTo the part in bold, you are only 1/3 correct. In 2022 you were correct. In 2023 and 2024, Daniel Jones was on the roster because of decisions made by Schoen and Daboll.
My belief is that the decision to give Jones the new contract was heavily influenced by Mara and all the nuance that entails. It's been detailed enough here, so no need to rehash it.
Obviously, none of us will ever know the truth. The end of an error is upon is. Let us all rejoice and be glad. :ok:
In my opinion it's okay to take a shot on a QB you love in the draft. The problem is when you force the franchise to live and die with that player for half a decade or more. Take a shot and draft a QB you love, but don't lower the bar in terms of performance. And don't allow yourself to imagine a level of skill that isn't there. When you do draft the player, be a bit skeptical and force the player to win you over with his on field performance. Don't hand him anything.
As for Daniel Jones specifically, he was a fatally flawed prospect in the draft. If you're slow to process, you are going to struggle in the NFL. Take a guy like that in the 4th round and see if he surprises you. If some other team wants to draft him in an earlier round, wish them well.
This draft evaluation from Todd McShay is perfectly articulated. He was right about everything and it's mind boggling that the Giants could fall in full bloom love with this prospect. What's even worse is the years of gaslighting and excuse making to explain away poor performance. They made a mistake. It happens. But they should've owned up to it years ago. Instead they launched a public relations campaign to attack anyone who didn't fall in line and pretend Jones was a good QB.
https://x.com/uSTADIUM/status/1856341008377634901?t=XV313BlDAzk0RbOj6LBGjQ&s=19
Quote from: T200 on November 13, 2024, 03:33:59 PMMy belief is that the decision to give Jones the new contract was heavily influenced by Mara and all the nuance that entails. It's been detailed enough here, so no need to rehash it.
Obviously, none of us will ever know the truth. The end of an error is upon is. Let us all rejoice and be glad. :ok:
If Mara cared so much about retaining Daniel Jones, why did Mara allow Schoen and Daboll to pass on exercising DJ's 5th-year option? It seems to me if I believed that Mara was that fond and attached to Daniel Jones, he would have pressed for the team to give him the 5th-year option (which, in hindsight, would have been a better move).
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 03:36:19 PMIn my opinion it's okay to take a shot on a QB you love in the draft. The problem is when you force the franchise to live and die with that player for half a decade or more. Take a shot and draft a QB you love, but don't lower the bar in terms of performance. And don't allow yourself to imagine a level of skill that isn't there. When you do draft the player, be a bit skeptical and force the player to win you over with his on field performance. Don't hand him anything.
As for Daniel Jones specifically, he was a fatally flawed prospect in the draft. If you're slow to process, you are going to struggle in the NFL. Take a guy like that in the 4th round and see if he surprises you. If some other team wants to draft him in an earlier round, wish them well.
This draft evaluation from Todd McShay is perfectly articulated. He was right about everything and it's mind boggling that the Giants could fall in full bloom love with this prospect. What's even worse is the years of gaslighting and excuse making to explain away poor performance. They made a mistake. It happens. But they should've owned up to it years ago. Instead they launched a public relations campaign to attack anyone who didn't fall in line and pretend Jones was a good QB.
https://x.com/uSTADIUM/status/1856341008377634901?t=XV313BlDAzk0RbOj6LBGjQ&s=19
In my opinion, Jones wasn't fatally flawed; the organization that drafted him was. They did everything humanly possible to screw up his development and shattered his confidence to the point of seeing ghosts, thanks to over half a decade of league-leading beatings, both physical and mental.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:36:42 PMIf Mara cared so much about retaining Daniel Jones, why did Mara allow Schoen and Daboll to pass on exercising DJ's 5th-year option? It seems to me if I believed that Mara was that fond and attached to Daniel Jones, he would have pressed for the team to give him the 5th-year option (which, in hindsight, would have been a better move).
Keeping Jones didn't require picking up the option, as we all saw.
An important piece in what I have been saying over the years regarding Mara's meddling is his *indirect* influence. His meddling is suggestive and not directive. A hundred pounds of feathers and a hundred pounds of bricks weigh the same.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:36:42 PMIf Mara cared so much about retaining Daniel Jones, why did Mara allow Schoen and Daboll to pass on exercising DJ's 5th-year option? It seems to me if I believed that Mara was that fond and attached to Daniel Jones, he would have pressed for the team to give him the 5th-year option (which, in hindsight, would have been a better move).
Yeah, I think this is pretty self-explanatory for anyone with leadership experience. You're not putting a new management team in place and immediately dictating their decision(s).
It's just not how it works.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:36:42 PMIf Mara cared so much about retaining Daniel Jones, why did Mara allow Schoen and Daboll to pass on exercising DJ's 5th-year option? It seems to me if I believed that Mara was that fond and attached to Daniel Jones, he would have pressed for the team to give him the 5th-year option (which, in hindsight, would have been a better move).
Up to that point, the Giants had literally no success with Jones. There was no logical argument to pick up the 5th year option or extend him. Then 2022 happened. They won a playoff game and were drafting 25th overall instead of drafting in the top 10 as I'm willing to bet most people expected. Suddenly, the choice was either re-sign Jones or let him walk and bring in a bridge QB until they were able to draft a replacement. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place after 2022. Had they won even just 6 or 7 games, they probably would have moved on from Jones.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 13, 2024, 03:50:07 PMYeah, I think this is pretty self-explanatory for anyone with leadership experience. You're not putting a new management team in place and immediately dictating their decision(s).
It's just not how it works.
Between my professional and volunteer lives I have nearly 60 years of management experience in a wide variety of fields. A new manager is wise not to rock the boat until they fully know the waters. So the reverse of what you said is more likely
Rich, I agree but there will be at least two good QB's at the top of this Draft. The Jones at six is so played out. He was the second best QB in that draft. The Giants needed a QB because Gettleman was an ego inflated moron who passed on two elite QBs in a solid draft class to draft a RB the prior year. There is no crystal ball on how a QB will have long term success in this league, but in my opinion, a lot of it has to do with how they are developed. How many great QB are on bad teams with lousy coaches and dysfunctional franchises?
I am very sure that if Eli was drafted by Gettleman, he would have failed just as Jones has.
But if they have solid tangibles and a few good intangibles then they have a fighting chance. I was very hopeful of Maye, Nix and Daniels and McCarthy falls into the Eli/Jones category of potential there but needs development. Maye and Nix are in good situations. Calib Williams has a boatload of talent but he has a weakness in his armor and he's in a bad situation. Mayfield and Darnold had talent but Mayfield had character issues and Darnold needed coaching. Both were in bad situations when then were drafted. Maybe their careers can be salvaged.
I had Jones in the same tier as Grier and Finley but I felt he had potential. It took me two years to realize that he was never going to be elite, but serviceable. He should be playing at the level of Goff by now. Now that kid lucked out.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on November 13, 2024, 04:52:33 PMUp to that point, the Giants had literally no success with Jones. There was no logical argument to pick up the 5th year option or extend him. Then 2022 happened. They won a playoff game and were drafting 25th overall instead of drafting in the top 10 as I'm willing to bet most people expected. Suddenly, the choice was either re-sign Jones or let him walk and bring in a bridge QB until they were able to draft a replacement. They were stuck between a rock and a hard place after 2022. Had they won even just 6 or 7 games, they probably would have moved on from Jones.
Jones had a solid rookie season and theb 2 bad years with Garrett and Judge and terrible support
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 03:39:20 PMIn my opinion, Jones wasn't fatally flawed; the organization that drafted him was. They did everything humanly possible to screw up his development and shattered his confidence to the point of seeing ghosts, thanks to over half a decade of league-leading beatings, both physical and mental.
If that's true how is it McShay absolutely nailed his assessment to the letter? Dumb luck? That's pretty damn lucky. He saw in college exactly what we have seen in the NFL. Jones the same guy he's always been.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 07:14:21 PMIf that's true how is it McShay absolutely nailed his assessment to the letter? Dumb luck? That's pretty damn lucky. He saw in college exactly what we have seen in the NFL. Jones the same guy he's always been.
I don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance. Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6? Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ? Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent? Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week? Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one? Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:25:34 PMI don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance. Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6? Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ? Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent? Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week? Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one? Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?
For the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 07:55:35 PMFor the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.
After Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?
As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 07:55:35 PMFor the same reason everyone was wrong about Evan Neal? A herd mentality in the draft process doesn't invalidate evaluations that turn out to be accurate.
Agreed.
Additionally, it's not like McShay was the only observer with a platform who was not high on Jones the prospect. Plenty others were down on the pick. At best, Jones was a controversial pick among the pundits/experts.
I also wouldn't exactly say Giants fans loved the pick in real time (see below):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDUpL7JIOiI
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:59:58 PMAfter Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?
As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.
It was not only McShay; numerous individuals on this platform raised concerns about Daniel Jones' processing ability and his difficulty in making anticipatory throws, both of which were consistently cited as potential limitations in his development as a passer. This assessment was evident early on, and if others failed to recognize it, it is challenging to convey its importance further.
Moreover, the idea that the Giants 'broke' Jones is perplexing. This viewpoint implies that he was somehow 'broken' in 2023, despite being lauded as a franchise quarterback by many of the same commentators in 2022. Observing these individuals now shift their perspectives, seemingly to defend previously held beliefs despite contradictory evidence, is certainly entertaining.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 13, 2024, 08:10:12 PMIt was not only McShay; numerous individuals on this platform raised concerns about Daniel Jones' processing ability and his difficulty in making anticipatory throws, both of which were consistently cited as potential limitations in his development as a passer. This assessment was evident early on, and if others failed to recognize it, it is challenging to convey its importance further.
Moreover, the idea that the Giants 'broke' Jones is perplexing. This viewpoint implies that he was somehow 'broken' in 2023, despite being lauded as a franchise quarterback by many of the same commentators in 2022. Observing these individuals now shift their perspectives, seemingly to defend previously held beliefs despite contradictory evidence, is certainly entertaining.
So, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declare DJ no good, you are at serious risk of confirmation bias (especially true with people who mock others whom they incorrectly perceive as wrong). Oh, and changing one's opinion in the light of new evidence is not a bad thing; it's a good thing. Thats what we do in science we strive to get it right, not to engage pointless contests about who was right or wrong, we focus on getting it right so we are always open to adjusting our views.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:20:13 PMSo, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declared DJ no good, any sort of objectiveness would naturally fly out the window.
So if they evaluate a QB coming out of college and through game film and interviews with coaches/players determine that they wouldn't take this guy. How should they proceed? These pundits are wrong all the time, this is not to say McShay nails every evaluation he has. If he did, he'd be the greatest GM of all time. But he nailed this one. And he wasn't alone. In fact if you were to remember back to that night, Gettleman and his evaluation were more alone than anybody else.
Bill Polian thought Lamar Jackson was a WR. Whoops. That doesn't mean that today he'd lose all objectivity and continue to believe that Lamar isn't a good QB. He's one of the best in the league and Polian missed on that one. It happens.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:59:58 PMAfter Sunday are you still sure everyone was wrong about Neal?
As for your point, the simpler and more obvious explanation is the Giants broke Jones.
Yes, I'm sure Evan Neal is not a can't miss stud tackle. I don't think a game where he displayed obvious balance issues against one of the worst defenses in the league changes that. I don't lower standards and expectations to fit narratives.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 08:36:06 PMYes, I'm sure Evan Neal is not a can't miss stud tackle. I don't think a game where he displayed obvious balance issues against one of the worst defenses in the league changes that. I don't lower standards and expectations to fit narratives.
I am heavily involved in the draft every year. No one was saying Neal was a "can't miss stud tackle." They believed he was a notch below that level.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 08:27:30 PMSo if they evaluate a QB coming out of college and through game film and interviews with coaches/players determine that they wouldn't take this guy. How should they proceed? These pundits are wrong all the time, this is not to say McShay nails every evaluation he has. If he did, he'd be the greatest GM of all time. But he nailed this one. And he wasn't alone. In fact if you were to remember back to that night, Gettleman and his evaluation were more alone than anybody else.
Bill Polian thought Lamar Jackson was a WR. Whoops. That doesn't mean that today he'd lose all objectivity and continue to believe that Lamar isn't a good QB. He's one of the best in the league and Polian missed on that one. It happens.
As HOF Bill Polian says, those pundits like Shey literally know only a third about draft prospects that NFL teams know about prospects. As you said, Shey gets it wrong frequently, so the simplest and most obvious answer to your question (assuming they agree with your opinion that Shey was spot on) is dumb luck. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:44:31 PMAs HOF Bill Polian says, those pundits like Shey literally know only a third about draft prospects that NFL teams know about prospects. As you said, Shey gets it wrong frequently, so the simplest and most obvious answer to your question (assuming they agree with your opinion that Shey was spot on) is dumb luck. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile
I'd buy that more if he had just said "i hate the pick" rather than getting into the exact specific reasons which have played out over the course of Jones career. That's entirely too specific for me to think it was just lucky. He must have seen something that Gettleman didn't. Especially when you factor in the dozens of others who shared that opinion.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:41:51 PMI am heavily involved in the draft every year. No one was saying Neal was a "can't miss stud tackle." They believed he was a notch below that level.
Neal didn't show anything against Carolina that would make any good faith observer believe he is capable of living up to what he was sold to be in the draft.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 08:20:13 PMSo, are you suggesting the issue is confirmation bias at work? It seems to me that once you declare DJ no good, you are at serious risk of confirmation bias (especially true with people who mock others whom they incorrectly perceive as wrong). Oh, and changing one's opinion in the light of new evidence is not a bad thing; it's a good thing. Thats what we do in science we strive to get it right, not to engage pointless contests about who was right or wrong, we focus on getting it right so we are always open to adjusting our views.
That's not what you're doing on this site. You previously talked about Jones as a top-10 caliber QB. Now you're blaming the organization instead of accepting any responsibility for your posts over the years.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 13, 2024, 08:47:06 PMI'd buy that more if he had just said "i hate the pick" rather than getting into the exact specific reasons which have played out over the course of Jones career. That's entirely too specific for me to think it was just lucky. He must have seen something that Gettleman didn't. Especially when you factor in the dozens of others who shared that opinion.
I have to correct a misconception I see frequently stated here. Years ago, I read a reliable source (I know, forget where) that Pat Shurmur was really high on Daniel Jones. As we know, Shurmur isn't HC material, but he is one of the QB gurus in the league. On top of that, OC Mike Shula (another coach who was pretty good at developing QB talent) was no doubt involved.
There is a lot of animosity directed at Gettleman (I am not going to deny that he earned much of it), and it's hard not to feel that DJ received collateral animosity since the day he was drafted by virtue of being drafted by Gettleman.
As to your other point, considering we have seen very different versions of DJ both in style and production over his 6 seasons, I am not sure how any description could be "spot on". It's simply not possible.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 08:50:29 PMThat's not what you're doing on this site. You previously talked about Jones as a top-10 caliber QB. Now you're blaming the organization instead of accepting any responsibility for your posts over the years.
It's amazing how animosity will cloud perception. I previously talked about the potential, and at the end of 2022, he appeared on track to achieving said potential. Then, 2023 and GM/coaching malpractice with the Giants O-line (and leaving DJ in all Dallas games to absorb a horrific beating.
Speaking of responsibility, I think people should take responsibility for their obsession of being able to beat their chest and declare how right they were and mocking people they believe are wrong. If people focused more on getting it right instead of being right, there wouldn't be any need for moderators.
Plus, the whole obsession with being right leads to serious closed-mindedness. You are not even willing to entertain the notion that the Giants broke DJ despite overwhelming evidence because you couldn't play the nah nah I was right game.
No animosity here. Only fascination. You would add to your credibility if you admit to your evaluation mistakes on Jones. It's obvious to so many of us that Daniel Jones is the exact QB McShay warned us he was.
I have no interest in claiming I was right. I used to be a bigger cheerleader than you. I had to accept when they drafted Flowers and Apple in consecutive years that this organization is fundamentally rotten. Every year I hope they will prove me wrong and every year they just lower their standards and expectations. They've become a losing organization that makes excuses and they've been this way for over a decade now. Daniel Jones is not the problem. Daniel Jones is the most obvious symptom of the problem.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on November 13, 2024, 09:07:20 PMNo animosity here. Only fascination. You would add to your credibility if you admit to your evaluation mistakes on Jones. It's obvious to so many of us that Daniel Jones is the exact QB McShay warned us he was.
I have no interest in claiming I was right. I used to be a bigger cheerleader than you. I had to accept when they drafted Flowers and Apple in consecutive years that this organization is fundamentally rotten. Every year I hope they will prove me wrong and every year they just lower their standards and expectations. They've become a losing organization that makes excuses and they've been this way for over a decade now. Daniel Jones is not the problem. Daniel Jones is the most obvious symptom of the problem.
To the point in bold, no doubt about it, it would bring to those who heavily criticized Jones over the years great joy if I groveled and said how wrong I was to consider that Jones had potential.
Beyond that, acknowledging an opposing viewpoint is a bedrock of intellectual honesty.
So frankly, I wish I could post a thread declaring myself the world's biggest fool ever to believe Daniel Jones could throw an NFL football and beg for forgiveness and mercy from Jones's long-time critics. Doing so would benefit me personally.
The problem is it would go against my instinct for honesty and frankness because I see and acknowledge the overwhelming evidence that the Giants broke the QB they drafted.
On a side note, I can't help but notice you said
QuoteIt's obvious to so many of us
The idea that you must be right because many people agree with you is an example of the ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that a belief or action is correct because the majority of people support it.
On the plus side, I am in complete agreement (not with your suggestion that I am some "cheerleader") but rather you claims that this organization is broken and has been for a long time. That also begs the question of why a broken organization couldn't break a QB they drafted?
No dissonance from me - I want no part of a QB drafted early if it means Jones all over. What would be the point? I wanted Mayfield in 2023 and things would be a bit better now. As of now, there's no quick fix. If they think a franchise guy is available then do it, but more likely they will talk themselves into it because they are desperate and impatient. Then some rookie will be like EJ Manuel, Blaine Gabbert, DJ etc. everyone gets fired and we go nowhere.
Don't take a QB if he isn't worth it. Wait. Find a Vet, hell do tryouts to the public, but not a top pick.
You may be overestimating how much people on this site are interested in your posts... whether groveling, boasting, or portraying pseudo-intellectual nonconformist.
Meanwhile...
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 09:20:02 PMThe idea that you must be right because many people agree with you is an example of the ad populum fallacy, also known as the bandwagon fallacy. This fallacy occurs when someone argues that a belief or action is correct because the majority of people support it.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:25:34 PMI don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance. Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6? Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ? Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent? Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week? Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one? Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 02:59:25 PMRyan Dunleavy
@rydunleavy
2 conflicting #Giants narratives I keep seeing/hearing
"Daniel Jones never should've been the No. 6 pick. That was a big mistake."
But then ...
"Giants have to draft their next QB this year. Take a shot even if it's supposed to be a weak class."
Um ... if that's the case, what do you think you might be saying in 2027-28?
I don't see how they are competing. They could both be accurate, but I would disagree with point 2, if we're talking about the top pick. You don't look for your guy in the 2nd or third round, but sometimes you find him there, so I wouldn't be averse to taking a shot at a second or third rounder, especially if we trade our #1 and have a surplus of picks.
In the video of Chris Canty I posted, he raises a point that blows the whole "Daniel Jones hasn't changed he is the same badly flawed QB the Giants drafted in 2019" out of the water.
Simply put, he doesn't want to hear your claims that the Giants can't win with Daniel Jones. He points out that not only did the team win with Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones. So he wants to know why, in 2022, they could win a playoff game with Daniel Jones, and now they can't even beat the worst team in the league.
The simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones, but since 6 or so guys all said that can't possibly be true, I guess we need to figure out some other explanation. :D
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 07:39:32 AMIn the video of Chris Canty I posted, he raises a point that blows the whole "Daniel Jones hasn't changed he is the same badly flawed QB the Giants drafted in 2019" out of the water.
Simply put, he doesn't want to hear your claims that the Giants can't win with Daniel Jones. He points out that not only did the team win with Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with Daniel Jones. So he wants to know why, in 2022, they could win a playoff game with Daniel Jones, and now they can't even beat the worst team in the league.
The simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones, but since 6 or so guys all said that can't possibly be true, I guess we need to figure out some other explanation. :D
If he wants to know, tell him to sign up for an account and join the BBH. It's already been discussed here.
You've said many times here that you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
To claim there is only one "simple and obvious answer" is an insult to everyone else who sees it differently. It's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical of you to tell us we aren't entitled to our own facts and then you engage in the same behavior you chastise others about.
For the record, the above isn't an attack. It's a simple and obvious observation.
Quote from: T200 on November 14, 2024, 07:49:12 AMIf he wants to know, tell him to sign up for an account and join the BBH. It's already been discussed here.
You've said many times here that you are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
To claim there is only one "simple and obvious answer" is an insult to everyone else who sees it differently. It's intellectually dishonest and hypocritical of you to tell us we aren't entitled to our own facts and then you engage in the same behavior you chastise others about.
For the record, the above isn't an attack. It's a simple and obvious observation.
Terms like "simple" and "obvious" are not facts. They are my opinions, ones you and other seem to feel I am not entitled to. Worse you make it clear holding such opinions is highly offensive to you guys and shows I am a bad person.
Can we get back to talking football and not how you thing I am just the worst person on the planet?
I think it is a little odd that because "6 people say it" it is a fact or as least insinuated or presented as such, yet there is a thread calling 13,000 people voting in a poll wrong.
2022: "I am officially off the fence with Daniel Jones. Much like I saw with Phil Simms (I think it started with Simms in the 49ers comeback) in the Giants' first Super Bowl year, I have seen Daniel Jones take that next step over the past month and become a franchise QB."
2023: "Im so happy the Giants signed their Franchise QB to a long term deal."
2024 "he simple and obvious answer is the Giants broke Daniel Jones"
Apparently, he was 'broken' in the 2023 offseason because he was terrible in the six games he played in 2023. The confirmation bias at play here is evident, and it's quite amusing to see Rich accuse others of the very bias he so plainly exhibits. I appreciate his posts for the entertainment value.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 07:56:41 AMTerms like "simple" and "obvious" are not facts. They are my opinions, ones you and other seem to feel I am not entitled to. Worse you make it clear holding such opinions is highly offensive to you guys and shows I am a bad person.
Can we get back to talking football and not how you thing I am just the worst person on the planet?
If that is your opinion, it certainly didn't read that way. And since you say it is your opinion, then I stand corrected.
For clarity's sake, the three statements I bolded are your opinion also or facts?
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 07:57:41 AMI think it is a little odd that because "6 people say it" it is a fact or as least insinuated or presented as such, yet there is a thread calling 13,000 people voting in a poll wrong.
I am not following. Here we are talking about how I hold the opinion that the Giants broke Daniel Jones and provided lots of supporting evidence for why I hold that opinion and we have six or so people telling me how wrong I am (while throwing in snarky remarks and barbs).
The poll you are referring to asks if Schoen and Daboll should keep their jobs.
In the end, what we have witnessed repeated is this:
An ad populum fallacy occurs when we use an "argumentum ad populum" (Latin for "argument to the people"), meaning that we make an appeal to what most people think, like, or believe, instead of justifying our position with evidence.We have heard repeated references to being right because others on the forum agree with them. The reality is popular doesn't mean correct, it simply means popular
If the poll was the opposite result that thread would have been presented vastly different, but that is neither here nor there.
With that said, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, I read the previous post, as there were 6 (or 5) people who agreed with Canty's sentiments, so that is on me, fair enough, a simple misread. I thought it was a reference to other articles in the many topics that support DJ. I did not realize that other users here were the ones being targeted with that remark.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 08:13:21 AMIf the poll was the opposite result that thread would have been presented vastly different, but that is neither here nor there.
With that said, I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong, I read the previous post, as there were 6 (or 5) people who agreed with Canty's sentiments, so that is on me, fair enough, a simple misread. I thought it was a reference to other articles in the many topics that support DJ. I did not realize that other users here were the ones being targeted with that remark.
Gap,
I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong. So you won't hear me say it. My point is that Canty made an excellent point. How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 08:47:36 AMGap,
I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong. So you won't hear me say it. My point is that Canty made an excellent point. How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)
It's only a good point when viewed in a vacuum and/or with a bias perspective. Off the top of my head, here are other QBs with playoff wins:
Tim Tebow
Mark Sanchez
T.J. Yates
Brock Osweiler
Rex Grossman
Blake Bortles
Did these franchise break these QBs too, or were they overvalued?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 08:47:36 AMGap,
I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong. So you won't hear me say it. My point is that Canty made an excellent point. How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)
Plenty of reasons
While Carolina is a weak opponent that they should have beaten on paper, 2024 overall is a much tougher schedule
Not one, but two brand new coordinators, 3 if you count Daboll calling plays
Injuries to two top 5 draft selections in Andrew Thomas and Thibs. Both absences have been strongly felt in both protection and run defense, along with some pass rush.
Losing our #1 wide receiver to a concussion for multiple weeks.
Teams have plenty of tape on what Daboll used to mask DJ in 2022 and are now forcing him to beat them.
What Warner showed plenty of on Sunday, many here have been pointing out all season. Jones is not getting the ball to his open receivers, many plays, chunk yardage, first downs, and some explosive plays are all being left on the table by him.
Jones has also thrown more INTs this year already at 7, than he did in all of 2022.
The list goes on, at the end of the day, Daboll found something that worked with Jones in 2022, sadly, that something is not and was not sustainable, as that style of play is not very effective overall and was merely a product of a vastly overrated and fluky season where they won a playoff game against a very bad defense. They didn't beat many good teams that season. Though, to credit you and Canty, this Carolina team obviously is much worse on both sides of the ball. I agree they should have won, but at the same time, realistically, it is better for them to lose that game.
Teams are planning against that dink and dunk offense, not allowing it to happen. It does not work in a way that is sustainable. Throwing 15TDs is also not a sustainable recipe for success, though let's be real, will he even hit that this year?
They are forcing him to beat them, and he is unable to answer the call. We also do not have Barkley to lean on, though Tracy is doing his best to fill the void, Tracy has 3 100yd games to Saquons 4 in all of 2022. Not saying he is on the same level, but he is doing an excellent job and for the cap hit difference, was also the right call.
I don't view Jones as broken, I just think he is being exposed for what he has always been. If you disagree, no argument here, you are entitled to your opinions. I have never said you weren't
It just seems clear
to me, in my opinion that the smoke and mirrors have simply faded, and despite the best support he has ever had, he is back to making the same mistakes he always made, when he is tasked with trying to actually play the QB position without the smoke and mirrors disguising his inability.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 14, 2024, 09:05:18 AMIt's only a good point when viewed in a vacuum and/or with a bias perspective. Off the top of my head, here are other QBs with playoff wins:
Tim Tebow
Mark Sanchez
T.J. Yates
Brock Osweiler
Rex Grossman
Blake Bortles
Did these franchise break these QBs too, or were they overvalued?
How many on that list were blamed for having a team so bad that they lost to the worst team in the league?
You are conflating a QBs who might be good enough to get their teams to the playoff time to time, with how DJ is being described which is this terrible QB holding back the entire franchise and causing them to be the worst team in the league.
In the end, we are left with two options- One Schoen and Daboll, despite having the most information about DJ are totally incapable of evaluating QBs and gave a bad QB $40 million a year, or they are at least not totally incompetent and gave a franchise potential QB $40 million a year and broke him.
Of the two possibilities, the latter seems far more probable and fits all the available evidence.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 09:09:51 AMTeams have plenty of tape on what Daboll used to mask DJ in 2022 and are now forcing him to beat them.
I have heard this claim more than once. However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.
Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 09:17:23 AMI have heard this claim more than once. However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.
Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?
I tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?
Secondly, I also believe it to be unfair to judge that contract as harshly considering:
There was a built in out, that will soon be exercised.
They were selecting 25th, and were not in a great position to draft anyone
There, at the time, were no clear and obvious substantial upgrades in FA
This is coupled, with the opinion, that after a successful first season with Daboll, it would only seem reasonable that if Jones was actually good, and it wasn't a fluke, that he would be expected to be able to take the next step in his development and handle more than 4 yard passes while continuing to elevate his level of play. He didn't, and he wasn't, and the contract shows they were prepared for one of two situations. 1) He continued to grow, develop, and get better and they get a bargain or 2) Their concerns he wouldn't would come to reality and they have an escape built in just in case. To me, that actually seems very smart. It didn't work out, but the expectation he would continue to get better after 2022 is not unreasonable by any stretch, to say they signed a limited QB to $40M is a bit extreme to me, all things considered. The hope was that he would have continued his ascent, sadly, he peaked in 2022.
They even incentivized his contract to allow him to make even more money if he played at a higher level, he has not even come close to those incentives. Not that he needed any to begin with, he is clearly of high character and a hard, tough worker. He is giving it all he has, it just isn't enough.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 09:34:40 AMI tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?
Because 2 seasons later they couldn't beat a bad Panthers team (who was missing players due to injuries, just like the Giants) with the same Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with (not just with, but because of)
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 08:47:36 AMGap,
I don't believe people agreeing or disagreeing with me changes the reality of whether I am right or wrong. So you won't hear me say it. My point is that Canty made an excellent point. How does a team make the playoffs and even have an away playoff win because of Daniel Jones, and suddenly they can't beat the worst team in the league with the same QB (unless the QB isn't the same)
Can you explain the vast difference in performance from the playoff win on the road in Minny to the complete dismantling in Philly the following week?
Maybe Chris or Jordan or Justin can explain it if you can't. Curious to know your thoughts.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 09:38:15 AMBecause 2 seasons later they couldn't beat a bad Panthers team (who was missing players due to injuries, just like the Giants) with the same Daniel Jones, they won a playoff game with (not just with, but because of)
Any given sunday
If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum
The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?
I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 09:49:55 AMAny given sunday
If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum
The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?
I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.
I am not sure in the middle of a 2-8 season your comments about isolating a single game is valid
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 09:49:55 AMAny given sunday
If any team was guaranteed a win over all bad teams they play, said team would be doing well for themselves. All bad teams win games still, we have had what, 2 or 3, maybe 4 winless teams in history? I think it is unfair to look at the single game in a vacuum
The Ravens lost to a bad Browns team a few weeks ago, a team our Giants beat, with the same Lamar that has seen them contend with and make the playoffs with often. Why is that? Are The HC and GM to blame for paying Lamar what they did if they can't beat the Browns? Is Lamar broken from that?
I ask that facetiously, not meant with any malice. I just believe isolating a single game does not tell the full story, far from it. Which is where all my other points above come into play some.
Evaluating a single game or season in isolation is the genesis of the misguided projections regarding Daniel Jones.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 09:17:23 AMI have heard this claim more than once. However, if this is true, it means that Schoen and Daboll (who have more information about DJ than anyone on the planet) literally signed a very limited QB to a multi-year $40 million dollar deal.
Why on earth would you then want those two to tap and develop our next QB?
Isn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get? We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year. Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year. They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.
And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have. Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way. Only blame when they stink. But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season. They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was. It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating.
At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too. Seems like a tough sell. I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 14, 2024, 12:31:58 PMIsn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get? We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year. Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year. They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.
And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have. Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way. Only blame when they stink. But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season. They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was. It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating.
At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too. Seems like a tough sell. I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.
The playoff season and road playoff win are often cited in support of Jones. During that season, Jones passed for over 300 yards in a game three times: Minnesota twice and Detroit once. Minnesota's pass defense was ranked 31. Detroit's? 32.
Yes, Jones played well that season and capitalized on a weak pass defense in getting his first playoff win.
Know what I haven't seen? Reasons why Jones bombed (15/27, 135 yards, 1 INT) the following week against the #2 ranked defense. Nevermind... it's all clear now. ;)
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 14, 2024, 12:31:58 PMIsn't is possible Mara who we already know loves Jones and Barkley specifically could not be convinced it was in the best interest of his team to let Jones walk for nothing and also trade Barkley for the best offer they could get? We already know Daboll/Schoen wanted Jones gone because they didn't pick up his 5th year. Even if they weren't positive and just wanted a year to see what happens they would have picked up that year. They were very sure Jones wasn't their guy when they got here.
And then yes, 2022 screwed up everything because they won significantly more games than they should have. Daboll of course gets no credit for this by the way. Only blame when they stink. But the Vikings had the 31st or 32nd ranked pass defense that season. They too won a ton of 1 score games they had no business winning because of how bad that defense was. It was quite literally the only team in the playoffs the Giants would have stood a chance at beating.
At that point though how do you convince your owner, who is more fan than executive, that this team isn't actually very good, those wins were a mirage, and we need to move on from at the very least Jones and possibly Barkley too. Seems like a tough sell. I can only imagine the amount of people on this very site losing their minds if they had blown up a playoff team.
1) We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones. He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.
2) Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing
3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.
4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.
5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him). If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones. I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here: "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter. 2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here. Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons." I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.
Quote from: T200 on November 14, 2024, 12:41:59 PMThe playoff season and road playoff win are often cited in support of Jones. During that season, Jones passed for over 300 yards in a game three times: Minnesota twice and Detroit once. Minnesota's pass defense was ranked 31. Detroit's? 32.
Yes, Jones played well that season and capitalized on a weak pass defense in getting his first playoff win.
Know what I haven't seen? Reasons why Jones bombed (15/27, 135 yards, 1 INT) the following week against the #2 ranked defense. Nevermind... it's all clear now. ;)
The entire defense and offense bombed against the NFC champion Eagles. Was it realistic to expect Jones to rise well above the equally bad performances of his teammates?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 12:43:44 PM1) We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones. He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.
2) Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing
3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.
4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.
5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him). If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones. I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here: "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter. 2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here. Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons." I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 09:34:40 AMI tend to look at it from a different lens, I instead would ask, if these guys were able to squeeze a playoff win out of Daniel Jones, why on earth would we not want to see what they can do with a QB with actual talent?
Secondly, I also believe it to be unfair to judge that contract as harshly considering:
There was a built in out, that will soon be exercised.
They were selecting 25th, and were not in a great position to draft anyone
There, at the time, were no clear and obvious substantial upgrades in FA
This is coupled, with the opinion, that after a successful first season with Daboll, it would only seem reasonable that if Jones was actually good, and it wasn't a fluke, that he would be expected to be able to take the next step in his development and handle more than 4 yard passes while continuing to elevate his level of play. He didn't, and he wasn't, and the contract shows they were prepared for one of two situations. 1) He continued to grow, develop, and get better and they get a bargain or 2) Their concerns he wouldn't would come to reality and they have an escape built in just in case. To me, that actually seems very smart. It didn't work out, but the expectation he would continue to get better after 2022 is not unreasonable by any stretch, to say they signed a limited QB to $40M is a bit extreme to me, all things considered. The hope was that he would have continued his ascent, sadly, he peaked in 2022.
They even incentivized his contract to allow him to make even more money if he played at a higher level, he has not even come close to those incentives. Not that he needed any to begin with, he is clearly of high character and a hard, tough worker. He is giving it all he has, it just isn't enough.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 12:43:44 PM1) We have never heard Mara express "love" for Daniel Jones. He has been supportive of his starting QB (as you would expect from an owner) but beyond admitting the obvious that they did everything to screw him up, I don't recall especially strong statements from Mara about Jones that I feel like I know Mara loves Jones.
2) Hard Knocks did provide evidence of Mara's "love" of Barkley, but it also showed despite Mara's misgivings (and his Nephew's), they allowed Barkley to leave for nothing
3) In year one, Mara allowed Schoen not to exercise DJ's fifth-year option, which, if Mara loves Jones and is pulling the strings, you would have expected the opposite to happen.
4) Daboll got coach of the year and universal love from the fans in 2022, I can't think of way he could have possibly had more credit for the success in 2022.
5) Daboll had a full year coaching Daniel Jones, and by the end of the season, his knowledge of DJ's abilities and liabilities should have been infinitely better than our own (due to the expertise and data available to him). If DJ is as you described him, it was coaching and GMHC malpractice not to strongly (to the point you got your way) push to move on from Daniel Jones. I mean, the arguments they would have given the owner have been proposed here: "Look, Mr. Mara, we had to run all sorts of schemes because Daniel Jones is so limited, and by the end of the season, the league was catching on, and I don't have a counter. 2022 was his peak (because our schemes have been exposed), and it's only down here from here. Signing him to a veteran deal will only serve to throw away over $80 million of your hard-earned dollars and will lead to more really bad seasons." I can't imagine Mara opposing a different direction after that pitch.
1) Him saying they did everything to screw him up to me is showing bias towards the player. He hasn't said the same thing for Evan Neal for example. He liked Jones and like most fans had hope that Jones would be better than he is.
2) Mara allowed Barkley to leave in the "you better be right about this" type of way. Which with the addition of Tracy doing what he has done has at shown that he was correct.
3) He allowed them to not exercise the 5th option because to that point Jones had never been any good. Even that rookie year was him feasting on a couple bad teams and playing terribly against the good ones. After that 2 stinkers. There was no reason to object to the notion that Jones was awful until the 2022 season. At that point he could say "Wait a minute here! You've found something. Build off that"
4) Daboll got credit then, I'm referring to right now and the people specifically that want him fired. Not just you, there's a lot of chatter about that. Do we think the 2022 coach of the year simply forgot how to coach over the course of 2 seasons?
5) We don't know how strongly Daboll/Schoen pushed to move on in 2022 but I do know it's a lot harder for them to win that argument in 2022 than it was in 2021. Perhaps their own hubris got in the way. Maybe Daboll thought xxxx I can make this guy good enough to win with. Or perhaps he was worried that trying to convince Mara that this was the best we were ever going to see of Daniel Jones would be akin to writing his own letter of resignation because if he's admitting he can't work with this guy you can bet Mara won't have to look long to find some other OC who says he can. And I can absolutely imagine Mara looking at that season, seeing the wins/losses, and not understanding either by lack of knowledge or willful ignorance why Jones won't improve on that season rather than regress.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 14, 2024, 12:53:06 PM4) Daboll got credit then, I'm referring to right now and the people specifically that want him fired. Not just you, there's a lot of chatter about that. Do we think the 2022 coach of the year simply forgot how to coach over the course of 2 seasons?
Daboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.
Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.
:ok: :ok: :ok:
Quote from: T200 on November 14, 2024, 01:00:32 PMDaboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.
Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.
:ok: :ok: :ok:
I think this is the best way anyone has summed it up.
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 01:06:49 PMI think this is the best way anyone has summed it up.
Ask McAdoo what he thinks of that.
When are there not conflicting narratives? And how often do we guess correctly around here? As for the so-called, experts- excluding the media who view success through different lenses- they should be even more embarrassed.
All any of us really know is that decades of Quarterback Drafts have in total produced only slightly more than 50 percent success- however we may choose to define it. Of course, while it's a cautionary tale in the sport of chance, all we care about is what should would could happen in the next Draft as it might affect Our Heroes.
Personally, I'm not ready to start speculating about it, not because I'm afraid of being wrong, as I can always trust hindsight to allow me to do what we all do best which is to second guess, but because I think it's too soon to join the Rash Mob.
Narratives! Narratives! Narratives!, don't make me =))
Cheers!
Quote from: T200 on November 14, 2024, 01:00:32 PMDaboll got COTY in 2022 and led the team to a playoff win. Two years later, he should be fired.
Jones QB'd the team to a playoff win in 2022. Two years later, fire the GM and HC.
:ok: :ok: :ok:
Matt Nagy won COTY in 2018, only to be fired from the Bears after the 2021 season
Frank Reich won COTY in 2019, only to be fired by the Colts after the 2022 season
Jay Gruden won COTY in 2016, only to be fired by Washington after the 2019 season
Mike Vrabel won COTY in 2021, only to be fired by the Titans after the 2023 season
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 01:25:45 PMMatt Nagy won COTY in 2018, only to be fired from the Bears after the 2021 season
Frank Reich won COTY in 2019, only to be fired by the Colts after the 2022 season
Jay Gruden won COTY in 2016, only to be fired by Washington after the 2019 season
Mike Vrabel won COTY in 2021, only to be fired by the Titans after the 2021 season
That's not correct. Vrabel was fired in Jan 24
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 14, 2024, 01:42:00 PMThat's not correct. Vrabel was fired in Jan 24
Yes, he was fired after the 2023 season. I fixed the typo you pointed out.
Vrabel is on my list of coaches I think might help bring the sort of winning culture this team needs. I think he got fired because he lost a power struggle with the Titan's new GM, Ran Carthon
@MrGap92 To your point about the challenge after the 2022 season to get a QB. If Schoen and Daboll even partially agreed with your views on Jones they had the option of slapping the franchise tag on DJ and negotiating a contract with Barkley.
In fact if Schoen and Daboll still had serious doubts about Jones, that would have (in my opinion) been the most prudent thing to do because they could have extended DJ's tryout for another year at much less cost then the contract was (even with the bailout they will suffer more than $20 million in cap hits in 2025)
Whilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 14, 2024, 02:10:35 PMWhilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.
:surprise: :surprise: :surprise:
I had not looked at it that way.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 02:02:59 PM@MrGap92
To your point about the challenge after the 2022 season to get a QB. If Schoen and Daboll even partially agreed with your views on Jones they had the option of slapping the franchise tag on DJ and negotiating a contract with Barkley.
In fact if Schoen and Daboll still had serious doubts about Jones, that would have (in my opinion) been the most prudent thing to do because they could have extended DJ's tryout for another year at much less cost then the contract was (even with the bailout they will suffer more than $20 million in cap hits in 2025)
And that one, I agree with you 100%
I would have preferred that scenario much more myself, so on that one, we agree.
I would even prefer DJ getting the tag if it meant Barkley left a year sooner (maybe he would have landed elsewhere too), cause at least Jones is fully off the books, which would be better cap wise than the year 2 out.
A Barkley/Tracy duo would be fun to watch.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 14, 2024, 02:10:35 PMWhilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.
If they tagged him or never resigned him, and last year was the end of it. Would they not have ended with $41M more next next as opposed to $19?
I'm not a cap guy, so this is interesting.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 14, 2024, 02:10:35 PMWhilst they take a dead cap hit of 22mil, they recoup 19mil in cap savings. The cap space it actually costs to get out of the deal and move on is 3mil or to put it another way, signing someone like Nick McLoud.
The cost of getting out of the deal is the $22 million in dead cap space. Had they franchised DJ and released him last year, the Giants would have $22 million in cap space in 2025, and then they would be cutting him after the season.
Another way of looking at it is this way:
2025 DJ has a cap hit of $41.6 million. By cutting him the team saves the $19 million but they still lose the $22 million (19 + 22 = 41)
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 14, 2024, 02:14:48 PMAnd that one, I agree with you 100%
I would have preferred that scenario much more myself, so on that one, we agree.
I would even prefer DJ getting the tag if it meant Barkley left a year sooner (maybe he would have landed elsewhere too), cause at least Jones is fully off the books, which would be better cap wise than the year 2 out.
A Barkley/Tracy duo would be fun to watch.
DJ had a $15MM cap hit in 2023 due to the contract he signed, which pushed more money into 2024 and 2025. It would have been $18MM more on the cap in 2023 if they franchised him (total $33MM). As I recall, this was part of the issue--franchising DJ was a strong option, but the cap implications because of the position valuation were difficult to reconcile with the rest of the required team building. To put it in broader strokes: in 2023 the Giants entered with Barkley at $10MM (franchise tag) and Jones at $15MM, for a total of $25MM. Assume that's what they could pay for the combined positions without cutting short the other facets of the team they needed to improve: there's simply no way to achieve that low a combined cap hit when you franchise Jones--you're already $8MM over it before even taking into account Barkley's contract. I think they would have loved to flip-flop the contracts and franchise Jones and long-term deal with Barkley, but it was largely infeasible if you actually wanted to retain both and make improvements to the squad overall. I can't recall perfectly, but I think if they franchised Jones the Giants wouldn't have had any real flexibility in the 2023 offseason if they franchised Jones.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 14, 2024, 02:27:02 PMDJ had a $15MM cap hit in 2023 due to the contract he signed, which pushed more money into 2024 and 2025. It would have been $18MM more on the cap in 2023 if they franchised him (total $33MM). As I recall, this was part of the issue--franchising DJ was a strong option, but the cap implications because of the position valuation were difficult to reconcile with the rest of the required team building. To put it in broader strokes: in 2023 the Giants entered with Barkley at $10MM (franchise tag) and Jones at $15MM, for a total of $25MM. Assume that's what they could pay for the combined positions without cutting short the other facets of the team they needed to improve: there's simply no way to achieve that low a combined cap hit when you franchise Jones--you're already $8MM over it before even taking into account Barkley's contract. I think they would have loved to flip-flop the contracts and franchise Jones and long-term deal with Barkley, but it was largely infeasible if you actually wanted to retain both and make improvements to the squad overall. I can't recall perfectly, but I think if they franchised Jones the Giants wouldn't have had any real flexibility in the 2023 offseason if they franchised Jones.
Schoen signed AT and Dex to big contracts as well. It would have been easy to use those contracts to shift cap money lost by giving DJ the franchise tag
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 14, 2024, 02:30:12 PMSchoen signed AT and Dex to big contracts as well. It would have been easy to use those contracts to shift cap money lost by giving DJ the franchise tag
He certainly could have. Schoen has shown a reticence to push significant dollars into the future. The Giants have a healthy cap as a result--though, a healthy cap without win/loss production isn't exactly something to brag about.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 14, 2024, 02:27:02 PMDJ had a $15MM cap hit in 2023 due to the contract he signed, which pushed more money into 2024 and 2025. It would have been $18MM more on the cap in 2023 if they franchised him (total $33MM). As I recall, this was part of the issue--franchising DJ was a strong option, but the cap implications because of the position valuation were difficult to reconcile with the rest of the required team building. To put it in broader strokes: in 2023 the Giants entered with Barkley at $10MM (franchise tag) and Jones at $15MM, for a total of $25MM. Assume that's what they could pay for the combined positions without cutting short the other facets of the team they needed to improve: there's simply no way to achieve that low a combined cap hit when you franchise Jones--you're already $8MM over it before even taking into account Barkley's contract. I think they would have loved to flip-flop the contracts and franchise Jones and long-term deal with Barkley, but it was largely infeasible if you actually wanted to retain both and make improvements to the squad overall. I can't recall perfectly, but I think if they franchised Jones the Giants wouldn't have had any real flexibility in the 2023 offseason if they franchised Jones.
Makes sense, thanks for that explanation.
That actually makes alot of sense, and probably explains why they went the route they did. I don't think I accounted for the increased positional value in my head.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on November 14, 2024, 02:31:37 PMHe certainly could have. Schoen has shown a reticence to push significant dollars into the future. The Giants have a healthy cap as a result--though, a healthy cap without win/loss production isn't exactly something to brag about.
Schoen did push significant with DJ's contract, which is Dex or AT's contract would have had to pick up the slack if they had tagged DJ.
As for Schoen's pay as you go, he certainly doesn't have much to brag about with the losing, in my opinion it's a position to be in if you are losing. I like to say the only worse than being a bad team is being a bad team in cap hell.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 13, 2024, 07:25:34 PMI don't think his assessment fit DJ to a tee, especially through the lens of DJ's rookie and year 4 perfance. Why did DJ play much worse in years 5 and 6? Why was QB guru Pat Shurmur so high on DJ? Why did Greg Cosell study DJ's NFL film and declare he had franchise QB talent? Why did Bucky Brooks and Daniel Jeremiah say DJ has franchise QB potential just last week? Why did the Broncos and Washington want to draft DJ in round one? Why did Mike Lombardi say the NFL was high on DJ and he would be a surprise first round QB?
McShay has also been wrong a lot. Now he's tooting his horn coming out six years later and bragging he knew Jones wouldn't pan out. No wonder ESPN fired him. He was the outlier with the vast majority of scouts loving Daniel Jones. Mel Kiper and many other NFL Front Offices also had him rated highly. Not one player from Duke was drafted Jones' senior year. Jones was MVP of the Senior Bowl and lit up the Combine with his measurables, athleticism and arm talent. As I've stated before - Phil Simms said right on WFAN - Boomer Esiason Show that he knew of four teams who were poised to select Jones before 10.
Let's remember Jones burst on the scene his rookie year throwing 24 TDs in 12 games until a high ankle sprain and key injuries to his OL derailed him. In the years following, he was the victim of numerous coaching changes and the worst offensive lines in the league that led to a stream of injuries that have plagued him. John Mara was right in stating "we did all we could in screwing up Daniel Jones."
I just finished reading "Sunday Morning Quarterback " by Phil Simms ( Amazon) - recommended by you Rich. I firmly believe that if fans would read that book, they will gain a different perspective on just what it is like to be a NFL Quarterback.
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