Big Blue Huddle

https://x.com/SethWalder/status/1858548224648151290

From their lips...

How does taking "Dimes" off the field, and tossing a "Chicken Cutlet" in his place, buy you a whole nine (9) percentage points probability of jumping from current state draft slot five (5) to slot one (1), anyway?

Can we get the official formula extrapolation in order to calculate probability, using the "if-then" conditions above for slots two (2) through four (4)?

Does the formula extrapolation change dramatically should Lock see some snaps? Can we get an extrapolation if both QBs played 50% of every game with one alternate scenario having "Chicken Cutlet" start the game, another where Lock starts the game, and yet another where the starter is rotated every week, and yet another where a coin is flipped where "Chicken Cutlets" wins the toss and starts first, and finally the other where Lock wins the toss and he starts first in the rotation.

At this stage, call Bellvue because if we really believe the Chicken Cutlet, Egg Creme local star is worth only 9%, then I'd say f&@k it and start the Irish kicker, Jude McAtemney as the starting QB and increase the probability from 12% to a guaranteed 100% and take out all the guesswork.

Besides, how cool would a QB with a #99 jersey be anyway? Also, since he's a local product from Rutgers, Chicken Cutlet guy can help him find an agent and get his 15 minutes of Fame similar to Tommy last season. At least THAT, and pick #1, make the rest of the year a little more interesting.

By the way, do those guys ship Sabretts along with their famed condiments out this way? Haven't had a good NY frankfurter in ages!

Peace!

Quote from: kartanoman on November 18, 2024, 06:08:43 PMHow does taking "Dimes" off the field, and tossing a "Chicken Cutlet" in his place, buy you a whole nine (9) percentage points probability of jumping from current state draft slot five (5) to slot one (1), anyway?

Can we get the official formula extrapolation in order to calculate probability, using the "if-then" conditions above for slots two (2) through four (4)?

Does the formula extrapolation change dramatically should Lock see some snaps? Can we get an extrapolation if both QBs played 50% of every game with one alternate scenario having "Chicken Cutlet" start the game, another where Lock starts the game, and yet another where the starter is rotated every week, and yet another where a coin is flipped where "Chicken Cutlets" wins the toss and starts first, and finally the other where Lock wins the toss and he starts first in the rotation.

At this stage, call Bellvue because if we really believe the Chicken Cutlet, Egg Creme local star is worth only 9%, then I'd say f&@k it and start the Irish kicker, Jude McAtemney as the starting QB and increase the probability from 12% to a guaranteed 100% and take out all the guesswork.

Besides, how cool would a QB with a #99 jersey be anyway? Also, since he's a local product from Rutgers, Chicken Cutlet guy can help him find an agent and get his 15 minutes of Fame similar to Tommy last season. At least THAT, and pick #1, make the rest of the year a little more interesting.

By the way, do those guys ship Sabretts along with their famed condiments out this way? Haven't had a good NY frankfurter in ages!

Peace!

Because one did some decent things last year while in the same spot and the other just flat out stinks.

Quote from: Trench on November 18, 2024, 07:35:30 PMBecause one did some decent things last year while in the same spot and the other just flat out stinks.

Hi Trench - did you read my input before replying? My post was a cheeky reply to the whole idea that changing QBs actually INCREASES the Giants' probability for being in position to claim the #1 pick in the draft. I enjoy the passion in your posts but I think you jumped on the wrong person and the wrong comment altogether. As I've already stated in plenty of posts prior, I'm pretty settled with the thought that none of the QBs currently on the Giants' roster will be on the team next year. Tommy "Chicken Cutlets" might be the lone exception should he impress the rest of the way, but it's going to be very different next year.

Do me a favor. While you slam the door on Danny Dimes' back end, while telling him "Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya," remind Schoen that he still has to fix that big hole called the Left Offensive Tackle or nobody, not even our favorite Chicken Cutlet guy, stands a chance in hell of doing anything at the QB position.

Peace, my brother in Giant faith!

The last time a backup for the Giants played better than the starter that I can recall was 1997 and Danny Kanell.

The move was necessary but I would manage my expectations. The most likely effect will be a motivated team, knowing a new era is emerging.

Quote from: kartanoman on November 18, 2024, 07:51:06 PMHi Trench - did you read my input before replying? My post was a cheeky reply to the whole idea that changing QBs actually INCREASES the Giants' probability for being in position to claim the #1 pick in the draft. I enjoy the passion in your posts but I think you jumped on the wrong person and the wrong comment altogether. As I've already stated in plenty of posts prior, I'm pretty settled with the thought that none of the QBs currently on the Giants' roster will be on the team next year. Tommy "Chicken Cutlets" might be the lone exception should he impress the rest of the way, but it's going to be very different next year.

Do me a favor. While you slam the door on Danny Dimes' back end, while telling him "Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya," remind Schoen that he still has to fix that big hole called the Left Offensive Tackle or nobody, not even our favorite Chicken Cutlet guy, stands a chance in hell of doing anything at the QB position.

Peace, my brother in Giant faith!

My apologies, I totally misinterpreted your post.

Quote from: Trench on November 18, 2024, 07:35:30 PMBecause one did some decent things last year while in the same spot and the other just flat out stinks.

Flat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


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Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 11:47:48 PMFlat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


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There are other issues. Many of which can be overcome. A lousy QB cannot be overcome. And finally, mercifully, Jones is permanently replaced. I wish him well in his future endeavors not many of which will involve playing football any more.

Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 11:47:48 PMFlat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

"Playing well" is a relative term.  But when grading on the Jones curve I guess those games would qualify as playing "well".  Jones is not the only QB to miss an open receiver, but name the QB that misses as often as he does?  Name the QB that when he has open receivers, airmails it as bad as Jones does. If they had even slightly below average QB play this year they are in the mix for the play-offs.

Quote from: Trench on November 18, 2024, 10:44:44 PMMy apologies, I totally misinterpreted your post.

You are fine and no problems, my friend. Please keep posting. I love your passion! Keep it up!

Peace!

Quote from: Ed Vette on November 18, 2024, 08:10:08 PMThe last time a backup for the Giants played better than the starter that I can recall was 1997 and Danny Kanell.

The move was necessary but I would manage my expectations. The most likely effect will be a motivated team, knowing a new era is emerging.

I remember Danny and he, too, had a great defense which was beginning to come into its own when John Fox first took over as defensive coordinator.

But Danny played well throughout 1997, won the division and got the start in 1998 where he bottomed out and Kent Graham came in to salvage the season at 8-8.

I suppose you could also count 1999 when Kerry Collins took over for Kent Graham when performance at the QB position took a major shot in the arm.

All of it started with the same cycle we are experiencing today with Daniel Jones; except insert Dave Brown and there you have it, history is in the process of repeating itself.

When will Mara Tech ever learn?

Peace!

Quote from: coggs on November 19, 2024, 07:40:41 AM"Playing well" is a relative term.  But when grading on the Jones curve I guess those games would qualify as well.  Jones is not the only QB to miss an open receiver, but name the QB that misses as often as he does?  Name the QB that when he has open receivers, airmails it as bad as Jones does. If they had even slightly below average QB play this year they are in the mix for the play-offs.

Not only that.

Here's the defensive rankings of the teams he faced - whilst not all on him, of course, it's hardly a murderers' row either:

Vikings 11th (offense puts up 6pts)
Commanders 17th (twice)  (18 and 22 pts)
Browns 15th (21pts)
Cowboys 26th (15 pts)
Seahawks 25th (29 pts)
Bengals 23rd (7 pts)
Eagles 1st (3 pts)
Steelers 8th  (18 pts)
Panthers 30th (17 pts)

Quote from: kartanoman on November 18, 2024, 06:08:43 PMHow does taking "Dimes" off the field, and tossing a "Chicken Cutlet" in his place, buy you a whole nine (9) percentage points probability of jumping from current state draft slot five (5) to slot one (1), anyway?

Can we get the official formula extrapolation in order to calculate probability, using the "if-then" conditions above for slots two (2) through four (4)?

Does the formula extrapolation change dramatically should Lock see some snaps? Can we get an extrapolation if both QBs played 50% of every game with one alternate scenario having "Chicken Cutlet" start the game, another where Lock starts the game, and yet another where the starter is rotated every week, and yet another where a coin is flipped where "Chicken Cutlets" wins the toss and starts first, and finally the other where Lock wins the toss and he starts first in the rotation.

At this stage, call Bellvue because if we really believe the Chicken Cutlet, Egg Creme local star is worth only 9%, then I'd say f&@k it and start the Irish kicker, Jude McAtemney as the starting QB and increase the probability from 12% to a guaranteed 100% and take out all the guesswork.

Besides, how cool would a QB with a #99 jersey be anyway? Also, since he's a local product from Rutgers, Chicken Cutlet guy can help him find an agent and get his 15 minutes of Fame similar to Tommy last season. At least THAT, and pick #1, make the rest of the year a little more interesting.

By the way, do those guys ship Sabretts along with their famed condiments out this way? Haven't had a good NY frankfurter in ages!

Peace!

https://x.com/SethWalder/status/1858549381672124833

Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 11:47:48 PMFlat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


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This is a huge problem on this board. The lack of integrity and honesty brings the quality of discussions down.

I know I have responded to these claims from you and Rich that that is not what we're saying and have acknowledged there are other legitimate issues with the team. But the QB is the largest and most prominent issue.

Yet, here you are again, making claims that no one else has made. And we wonder why there's so much animus on the BBH.

Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 11:47:48 PMFlat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ted,

I agree, and I think it's worth noting, for all the people kicking Daniel Jones while he is down (the man has lost his starting job and will be losing his position on the team, how much more beating does the man need?)

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNmM4azViNjRucXJ0ZXB3Y2w4djh2b2trOW12ZHY0YWlscTRiN3R5MSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/etAzhFDYk0RmnuyfOP/giphy.webp)


I also think it's worth noting that the average QB rating this season is 87 and QBR is 60

So, for all the commentary about DJ being the worst QB, DJ (has had 4 games where is QB metric is clear above the averages)

Washington week 2  QB rating 100.0 QBR 68
Browns week 3  QB rating 109.4  QBR 71.3
Seahawks week 5 QB rating 109.6 QBR 68.6
Washington Week 10 QB rating 119.7 QBR 74.0

So the reality that Jones is only this terrible QB who is incapable of playing like an NFL franchise QB really doesn't match reality.   No doubt DJ has had enough bad games, and it's clear his confidence on the field is shot (not that I can blame him after the beating both mental and physical he has endured) the man is not nearly as bad as many are tying to make him out to be.

This 'confidence shot' thing interests me. So here's a timeline:

- Wins a road game in a 'hostile' environment in the 2022 play-offs?

- He then signs the deal

- Comes out the gate 1-6, sacked a hell of a lot - some the fault of the line, some the fault of him (as reported by PFF).

- Comes back from injury, has a revamped OL, Nabers etc

- Benched.

So if we assume the confidence is not shot when he signs the deal, as he managed to win on the road, we are talking about the confidence being somewhere between week 2 and 8 of 2023 (I can't imagine the confidence is eroded in one mere game of 2023).

If that's the case, that's a massive red flag about his intangibles - i.e. his resilience, if he's whole confidence is shot in a short space of time after signing the deal, what does that say about him?


OR an opposing view - the accumulative performance just wasn't good enough. And there's no harm in that, he gave it his best worked hard but ultimately it just wasn't good enough for the New York Giants.

Unless, of course, the whole confidence stuff serves another purpose all together?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:29:11 AMTed,

I agree, and I think it's worth noting, for all the people kicking Daniel Jones while he is down (the man has lost his starting job and will be losing his position on the team, how much more beating does the man need?)

(https://media4.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExNmM4azViNjRucXJ0ZXB3Y2w4djh2b2trOW12ZHY0YWlscTRiN3R5MSZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/etAzhFDYk0RmnuyfOP/giphy.webp)


I also think it's worth noting that the average QB rating this season is 87 and QBR is 60

So, for all the commentary about DJ being the worst QB, DJ (has had 4 games where is QB metric is clear above the averages)

Washington week 2  QB rating 100.0 QBR 68
Browns week 3  QB rating 109.4  QBR 71.3
Seahawks week 5 QB rating 109.6 QBR 68.6
Washington Week 10 QB rating 119.7 QBR 74.0

So the reality that Jones is only this terrible QB who is incapable of playing like an NFL franchise QB really doesn't match reality.   No doubt DJ has had enough bad games, and it's clear his confidence on the field is shot (not that I can blame him after the beating both mental and physical he has endured) the man is not nearly as bad as many are tying to make him out to be.

No one is kicking him while he's down. The assessments have been consistent. His being benched changes nothing about his play.

Edit to add: Coaches and execs have been fired and still talked about. Jones being benched is no different.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 08:41:40 AMThis 'confidence shot' thing interests me. So here's a timeline:

- Wins a road game in a 'hostile' environment in the 2022 play-offs?

- He then signs the deal

- Comes out the gate 1-6, sacked a hell of a lot - some the fault of the line, some the fault of him (as reported by PFF).

- Comes back from injury, has a revamped OL, Nabers etc

- Benched.

So if we assume the confidence is not shot when he signs the deal, as he managed to win on the road, we are talking about the confidence being somewhere between week 2 and 8 of 2023 (I can't imagine the confidence is eroded in one mere game of 2023).

If that's the case, that's a massive red flag about his intangibles - i.e. his resilience, if he's whole confidence is shot in a short space of time after signing the deal, what does that say about him?


OR an opposing view - the accumulative performance just wasn't good enough. And there's no harm in that, he gave it his best worked hard but ultimately it just wasn't good enough for the New York Giants.

Unless, of course, the whole confidence stuff serves another purpose all together?

IDK, I do not buy the he was "broken" argument.

They lost 40-0 Week 1, first game after being paid handsomely, and first game after his playoff run, and best season of his career. Most of that team was back with some more pieces added and others healthy, and the offense has struggled since.

Was he broken? Or was it all a fluke?

The fans don't want any part of Drew Lock .so they threw them a bone in Cutlets. Seems to be as much a home crowd incentive to show up, if anything 

They'll be the family shots. the pre game feature in Jersey..yada .yada. Yo. Tommy boy..aye..So what.

No tanks?

As they say. Couldn't hoit

The remaining games will be interesting in a perverse way: rooting for them to lose. And I do so in hopes next year to be enthusiastically rooting for them to win again.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 08:46:13 AMNo one is kicking him while he's down.

Are you telling me I have not been reading tons of posts AFTER DJ lost his job saying what a terrible QB he has been?   That is pretty much the definition of kicking a man when he's down.  DJ lost his job, what is served by the continued criticisms?

QuoteEdit to add: Coaches and execs have been fired and still talked about. Jones being benched is no different.

Coaches and execs are a bit different.  When a player is benched, if there are any issues he is causing, the team goes with him to the bench.  When a GM or HC is let go, the team still has to deal with the aftermath of their work for the team.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:59:31 AMAre you telling me I have not been reading tons of posts AFTER DJ lost his job saying what a terrible QB he has been?   That is pretty much the definition of kicking a man when he's down.  DJ lost his job, what is served by the continued criticisms?

Coaches and execs are a bit different.  When a player is benched, if there are any issues he is causing, the team goes with him to the bench.  When a GM or HC is let go, the team still has to deal with the aftermath of their work for the team.

Yes, I am telling you you haven't been reading tons of posts saying that.

What you have been reading are some posts applauding a long overdue decision. It was obvious to many of us here that DJ's ceiling was too low to be an effective starter in the NFL. Yes, he's capable of a good to very good game here and there. One of your last "qualities you like to see in a QB" was consistency. Daniel's only consistency displayed was inconsistency. He was mediocre at best and quite a few folks here ignored it and gave him the benefit of the doubt and deflected for years. Now the chickens have come home to roost.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 09:08:47 AMYes, I am telling you you haven't been reading tons of posts saying that.

What you have been reading are some posts applauding a long overdue decision. It was obvious to many of us here that DJ's ceiling was too low to be an effective starter in the NFL. Yes, he's capable of a good to very good game here and there. One of your last "qualities you like to see in a QB" was consistency. Daniel's only consistency displayed was inconsistency. He was mediocre at best and quite a few folks here ignored it and gave him the benefit of the doubt and deflected for years. Now the chickens have come home to roost.

Tim,

I am not arguing that DJ is the answer for this dysfunctional team.  What I am saying is that some of the criticism that is still pouring in on the man down Daniel Jones is a bit hyperbolic.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 09:24:59 AMTim,

I am not arguing that DJ is the answer for this dysfunctional team.  What I am saying is that some of the criticism that is still pouring in on the man down Daniel Jones is a bit hyperbolic.

Understood.

For those of us who have been told by folks here on the BBH we're not being fair or not giving Jones a chance to show what he's capable of, it's validation from those who know him best and make the decisions, that what we saw and didn't see wasn't a mirage. Not "I told you so..." but simply validation that we saw what we saw and we weren't blinded by false hope and potential.

Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 11:47:48 PMFlat out stinks alright.

Game 1 - entire team outclassed by the Vikings.
Games 2-4 this entire Board cited Jones's playing well leading his own idiot coach to state "he's been locked in".
Game 5 - 7 sacks, 10 hits, 10 hurries. Jones took a beating.
Game 6 - 20-26 with three drops and an elite
91.5 PFF score.
Game 7 - the idiot coach calls a flea flicker with less than a two feet to go. Blames Jones publicly for missing open receivers. Guess Jones is the only QB who does that.

Of course the QB is always the scapegoat when a team loses. But the porous defense isn't to blame? The special teams play isn't to blame? The coach and his play calling isn't to blame?

I guess the other 21 starters, the coaches and the officials all have nothing to do with Ws and Ls. It's all about the QB... got it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ted, I appreciate your devotion and you're right, it's not all on him. But the fact remains that through all he's had to face in adversity, it's taken its toll on him. I think that going into this year he knew he was likely to be gone regardless of the outcome of the season. He's been thinking too much and it's evident in the delay in his release and the errant passes. I wouldn't be surprised if he would be diagnosed with PTSD.

Ultimately, this is a good thing for Daniel Jones. He will have time to reflect and recover and go on to another team where there is less pressure as a backup, and who know... maybe he will emerge as a success story.

One thing that can't be minimized, is his commitment, toughness and work ethic, which made him a great teammate, respected by all. Watching the press call, it was clear that it was very difficult for Daboll to work through that. He clearly likes and respects Daniel Jones. I think he believes that Jones still gives them the best chance to win and this wasn't all his decision and it's not how he wanted it to end.

There was a facial tick he made at the beginning of the announcement when he said they were starting Tommy, and that exposed a lot to me, and how he had to protect the Owner by saying he keeps that conversation private. But if it was all his decision, he would have no reason not to say so.

It's time for us to accept that it's time to move on and just get through the rest of this season, and hopefully the Organization finds a way to elevate this team to more successful days.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 09:30:35 AMUnderstood.

For those of us who have been told by folks here on the BBH we're not being fair or not giving Jones a chance to show what he's capable of, it's validation from those who know him best and make the decisions, that what we saw and didn't see wasn't a mirage. Not "I told you so..." but simply validation that we saw what we saw and we weren't blinded by false hope and potential.

"Validation" or "I told you so." 

I would suspect that it is open to interpretation and individual opinion.  I will add that kicking the man while he is down doesn't help with the "validation" case.

Daniel Jones, by every appearance, is a hard-working man who busted his ass, putting in more work to try and entertain us with a good product than arguably any quarterback in the league.  He has also suffered, for our entertainment, two serious neck injuries and an ACL tear.  Even his owner admits the team screwed him over.  This is just my opinion, but I think it shows class and character after a man loses his job (despite literally his best efforts) to acknowledge his effort and whatever good he did and not keep harping on how badly he played some games or go hyperbolic in the criticism.  Again making the case for "validation" vs "I told you so"

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 09:38:21 AM"Validation" or "I told you so." 

I would suspect that it is open to interpretation and individual opinion.  I will add that kicking the man while he is down doesn't help with the "validation" case.

Daniel Jones, by every appearance, is a hard-working man who busted his ass, putting in more work to try and entertain us with a good product than arguably any quarterback in the league.  He has also suffered, for our entertainment, two serious neck injuries and an ACL tear.  Even his owner admits the team screwed him over.  This is just my opinion, but I think it shows class and character after a man loses his job (despite literally his best efforts) to acknowledge his effort and whatever good he did and not keep harping on how badly he played some games or go hyperbolic in the criticism.  Again making the case for "validation" vs "I told you so"

His personal qualities were never in question or up for debate. It's always been about his on-field performance. The fact that you didn't highlight his football attributes tells us all we need to know.

Whatever good he did on the field pales in comparison to his struggles. Some of your reasons are valid. Others are excuses. Ignoring the bad and highlighting the good is a big part of the reason he's lasted for six seasons. The mistake should have been acknowledged by those in charge years ago. Wherever Josh Rosen is, Daniel Jones should have been right next to him.

You and Ted feel Jones got a raw deal from the Giants. Many others feel the Giants fans got a raw deal from Gettleman and Mara.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 09:52:47 AMHis personal qualities were never in question or up for debate. It's always been about his on-field performance. The fact that you didn't highlight his football attributes tells us all we need to know.

Whatever good he did on the field pales in comparison to his struggles. Some of your reasons are valid. Others are excuses. Ignoring the bad and highlighting the good is a big part of the reason he's lasted for six seasons. The mistake should have been acknowledged by those in charge years ago. Wherever Josh Rosen is, Daniel Jones should have been right next to him.

You and Ted feel Jones got a raw deal from the Giants. Many others feel the Giants fans got a raw deal from Gettleman and Mara.

I don't think you really addressed my points, and I don't agree with how you are trying to frame the issue.  I also don't see if more discussion will really make a difference.

There's been plenty of acknowledgement for his efforts. There always had been.

Plus the kicking him when he's down, if you view it that way, is immaterial. He's not reading this board.

If you're reading the posts as "I told you so". I doubt that's why different than a large number of posters thought with the since disappeared "I'm so glad the Giants have found their franchise QB".

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 10:00:24 AMThere's been plenty of acknowledgement for his efforts. There always had been.

Plus the kicking him when he's down, if you view it that way, is immaterial. He's not reading this board.

If you're reading the posts as "I told you so". I doubt that's why different than a large number of posters thought with the since disappeared "I'm so glad the Giants have found their franchise QB".

I am just expressing how I was raised.  I was raised not to kick a man when he's down.  I certainly wouldn't do it from someone who failed despite his best efforts.   I also think in that case, I was taught to show class and acknowledge the good (because it doesn't cost you anything at that point) and not keep harping on the bad.

That's just how I was raised and values I hold.  I certainly don't expect everyone to share those values.

Okay, again. I don't view it as that but it's up to you.

My parents instilled the idea that one person's could be construed in a variety of different ways, so I'm not going to argue about how "you" feel about reading something.

But on the whole, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fanbase feeling validated. The "haters" were treated as pariahs for a long period of time with every critique admonished as hating and wanting the Giants to lose. Time has shown that side to be correct and if management/ownership saw it the way the haters did. They should be much further along than we actually are.

If you're not seeing that point of view, that's entirely your right.

I keep telling myself to try to not be so cynical. But then, having ached and throbbed my way through yet another of these biased confabulations, I suspect that it is actually hopeless to even try.

On the other hand, it may just be the nature of confabulatory explanations of behavior guided by implicit bias or epistemic innocence in the non-clinical population. So, I guess I should just keep quiet.

Cheers? 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 10:16:09 AMOkay, again. I don't view it as that but it's up to you.

My parents instilled the idea that one person's could be construed in a variety of different ways, so I'm not going to argue about how "you" feel about reading something.

But on the whole, I don't think there's anything wrong with the fanbase feeling validated. The "haters" were treated as pariahs for a long period of time with every critique admonished as hating and wanting the Giants to lose. Time has shown that side to be correct and if management/ownership saw it the way the haters did. They should be much further along than we actually are.

If you're not seeing that point of view, that's entirely your right.

I wouldn't describe the fanbase being "validated," and frankly, the way the term is being used, it's hard not to see that term being used as a backdoor, "I told you so"   Considering how the critics outnumbered the people supportive of DJ and how the critics frequently dismiss the circumstance beyond DJ's control that ultimately led to his failure as the Giants starting QB, I am having a hard time with the whole fanbase as the wronged victims being vindicated narrative (which is how I perceive this discussion, and as you said is my right just as you have a right to put forth your perceptions)

Ok so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:55:19 AMI wouldn't describe the fanbase being "validated," and frankly, the way the term is being used, it's hard not to see that term being used as a backdoor, "I told you so"  Considering how the critics outnumbered the people supportive of DJ and how the critics frequently dismiss the circumstance beyond DJ's control that ultimately led to his failure as the Giants starting QB, I am having a hard time with the whole fanbase as the wronged victims being vindicated narrative (which is how I perceive this discussion, and as you said is my right just as you have a right to put forth your perceptions)

Validated or I told you so. I'm not sure why it's so important to you?

This is just the reverse the situation 18 months ago when the Franchise QB was signed.

Perhaps your memory of those threads, and the general contract thread differs to mine. But it was littered with "I told you so".
 

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:14:50 AMValidated or I told you so. I'm not sure why it's so important to you?

This is just the reverse the situation 18 months ago when the Franchise QB was signed.

Perhaps your memory of those threads, and the general contract thread differs to mine. But it was littered with "I told you so".
 

When DJ was signed, there wasn't much in the I told you so vein.  I made it a point to talk to the DJ supporters that "I told you so" is counterproductive.  The reality is part of the reason so few people change their minds is that people inadvertently make it less desirable for people to change their views by gloating or going the whole "I told you so route."

I firmly believe that you increase your odds of people agreeing with you by avoiding the plague, the "I told you so" or "you need to eat crow" troupe.   That's just my position, and I appreciate that not all people who weren't all out on DJ shared my values.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 11:05:30 AMOk so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Perfectly stated. I feel the exact same way.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 11:20:05 AMWhen DJ was signed, there wasn't much in the I told you so vein.  I made it a point to talk to the DJ supporters that "I told you so" is counterproductive.  The reality is part of the reason so few people change their minds is that people inadvertently make it less desirable for people to change their views by gloating or going the whole "I told you so route."

I firmly believe that you increase your odds of people agreeing with you by avoiding the plague, the "I told you so" or "you need to eat crow" troupe.   That's just my position, and I appreciate that not all people who weren't all out on DJ shared my values.

Recollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 11:05:30 AMOk so no one really wants to say it, I will and I really don't care what some might think.
I Told You So.
I hated the pick right from that dreadful day whatever number of years ago. But as a fan I did root for Jones to be successful, week after week. I listened to all the excuses made for him and I rooted when I thought they were corrected.
In my mind I never ever believed Jones would be a franchise QB. I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I was there from day one.
Yes he is a good guy, a hard worker but so are many players who just don't have the talent to make it in the NFL, why aren't you feeling sorry for them?
Being a good guy and a hard worker only carry you so far. Talent makes it in the NFL and Jones is devoid of what really makes a QB stand apart from his peers.
Do I wish him well, of course just anyplace other than on the Giants. Am I being cruel maybe but I feel I have wasted 6 years of my Giant life waiting on him to be good and all I get now is sorry for the guy.
Like the other QB we once had from Duke, glad you're leaving.

Lenn,

The arrogance, conceit, and bias exhibited by those who labeled us as "haters" make it impossible for them to acknowledge they were wrong. The most prominent figure in this group set the tone this offseason by proclaiming their evaluation process as superior and dismissing anyone who predicted DJ's trajectory as having arrived at that conclusion through sheer luck.

It's also intellectually dishonest to claim that the so-called "haters" failed to acknowledge DJ's subpar supporting cast. Most of us fully recognized that context while maintaining that a quarterback's abilities can still be evaluated independently of their environment. From my perspective, DJ's inability to quickly read defenses and make anticipatory throws into tight windows was always going to cap his potential.

Like you, I'm happy we're moving on and find the notion of "kicking DJ when's he's down" to be ridiculous and nothing more than a deflection...

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:40:53 AMRecollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

LOL, I have known Len for over 20 years, and I can't recall a single point over that period when I agreed with him.  So, I think you picked the wrong person to cite in support of your position (at least when discussing it with me)


I will add something that struck me.  @T200 in the Giants dropped from 2nd pick in the draft thread about the randomness and unpredictable nature of the draft and predicting the success and failures of NFL players when pointing out (correctly, in my opinion) that we shouldn't take Bill Belichick's commentary as fact.  Suppose we accept that Bill Belichick's views shouldn't be accepted as fact despite his nearly unmatched football acumen. Why would a single belief about a player (with many outside variables involved) suddenly prove (or disprove) the football acumen of a particular poster?

Again, this is my worldview, but football acumen is hard-earned. It takes time and effort to learn the game of football at a higher level.  Suggesting that saying a quarterback is a bum proves you are a football expert, which is akin to declaring one a roulette expert because you put your money on Red 8 and you won.  Still, this extreme focus on right or wrong is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

I will also strongly disagree with your efforts to deny what I said at the time of the contract, as I am not in the habit of lying.

Quote from: kingm56 on November 19, 2024, 11:48:51 AMLenn,

The arrogance, conceit, and bias exhibited by those who labeled us as "haters" make it impossible for them to acknowledge they were wrong.

This belief creates the ugly friction that constantly plagues the forum. I can't imagine a more disrespectful description of people who don't agree with you.

Oh, I completely agree that many things are earned. One thought that ought not to be earned is an admission of getting things wrong. Despite your self proclaimed levels of football acumen, you and the side you sit on were widely incorrect on Daniel Jones being the Franchise QB of the New York Giants.

Quite why it's so difficult for you to admit that, I'm not entirely sure.

Nowhere did I claim, I was a football expert, I'm well aware of what it takes to be an expert in your field. All I said was I, among others, were correct - hence the quoting of Lenn.

The inability of people to own their mistakes, admit they were wrong and ultimately apologise for cultivating a notion of 'haters', is in my opinion (which impacts both the worldview and that of football forums), is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

Nothing more. Nothing less.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:40:53 AMRecollections clearly vary on this point.

Which is fine but it is my firmly held belief that this was neither the vein or goal of the Jones signing thread.

But @LennG points out above. That faction were entirely correct. Which is ultimately meaningless, after all this is just a message board but it's good that the football acumen of those posters are validated with what they saw.

I suspect a large portion of the board remembers that infamous thread and agrees with your assessment. Many of the narratives from that discussion have proven to be wildly inaccurate, so it's no surprise that the originator is now trying to push a different version of reality. However, you, I, and Rambo were heavily involved in that thread and can likely recall the key details without much effort.  If any objective person recalls differently, please let me know.  I prefer to get it right, vice being right.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 10:02:56 AMI am just expressing how I was raised.  I was raised not to kick a man when he's down.  I certainly wouldn't do it from someone who failed despite his best efforts.   I also think in that case, I was taught to show class and acknowledge the good (because it doesn't cost you anything at that point) and not keep harping on the bad.

That's just how I was raised and values I hold.  I certainly don't expect everyone to share those values.

I get what you are saying, but we are fans on a message board that Jones will never read.  We are not at the stadium mocking him as he leaves or going to house and telling him how much he sucks or harassing his family members.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 11:57:47 AMDespite your self proclaimed levels of football acumen

The fact that you felt the need to qualify with "self-proclaimed" strongly implies I don't have football acumen (and you are hardly the only one to suggest this on this forum).  While you and others seem to enjoy mocking and pointing out mistakes and belittling my hard-earned knowledge, there are people outside this echo chamber of a forum who comment on football for a living and who recognize the value of my well-informed opinions.

Quoteyou and the side you sit on were widely incorrect on Daniel Jones being the Franchise QB of the New York Giants.

Until the end of the 2022 season, I felt DJ wasn't given a proper chance to prove himself to be a franchise QB (and frankly, at this point, that is likely still proven a correct assertion on my part).

It also requires denying (without a shred of sound evidence) that tDJ may have lost the confidence followed by the abilities due to the beating and injuries suffered in 2023.  I am not going to take your approach and suggest other possibilities do exist, but clearly, for your claim to be true, one MUST make claims that are frankly not grounded in fact.  Still, I get it, based on what I consider to be poor form demonstrated by the "I told you so crowd" being fair in evaluations was easily trumped by the desire to gloat and put those that disagreed down.

QuoteThe inability of people to own their mistakes, admit they were wrong, and ultimately apologize for cultivating a notion of 'haters,' in my opinion (which impacts both the worldview and that of football forums), is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

The "haters" narrative does not reflect a forum where such labeling was strongly discouraged.  It's also a bit self-serving, in my opinion, to ignore the "DJ Lover" (or its variants) label that was frequently tossed around or the common pejorative of "Oh, you are just making excuses for DJ"

If you want validation for always being down on DJ, well, congrats, you were right. The team is without a franchise QB.  DJ, for whatever reason, crashed and burned after a pretty good 2022 (this is statistically factual).  Regardless of how it played out, your predictions of Daniel Jones' future with the Giants were (to the detriment of the team) proven correct.

For what it's worth, this entire discussion reminds me of this quote from a man who was not unintelligent


Albert Einstein — 'I'd rather be an optimist and a fool than a pessimist and right.'

Quote from: coggs on November 19, 2024, 12:08:11 PMI get what you are saying, but we are fans on a message board that Jones will never read.  We are not at the stadium mocking him as he leaves or going to house and telling him how much he sucks or harassing his family members.

Fair point, although I will add I am not a big fan of talking smack about people behind their back either.  I appreciate the case for no harm, but I just see it as bad form.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 12:14:49 PMThe fact that you felt the need to qualify with "self-proclaimed" strongly implies I don't have football acumen (and you are hardly the only one to suggest this on this forum).  While you and others seem to enjoy mocking and pointing out mistakes and belittling my hard-earned knowledge, there are people outside this echo chamber of a forum who comment on football for a living and who recognize the value of my well-informed opinions.

Until the end of the 2022 season, I felt DJ wasn't given a proper chance to prove himself to be a franchise QB (and frankly, at this point, that is likely still proven a correct assertion on my part).

It also requires denying (without a shred of sound evidence) that tDJ may have lost the confidence followed by the abilities due to the beating and injuries suffered in 2023.  I am not going to take your approach and suggest other possibilities do exist, but clearly, for your claim to be true, one MUST make claims that are frankly not grounded in fact.  Still, I get it, based on what I consider to be poor form demonstrated by the "I told you so crowd" being fair in evaluations was easily trumped by the desire to gloat and put those that disagreed down.


The "haters" narrative does not reflect a forum where such labeling was strongly discouraged.  It's also a bit self-serving, in my opinion, to ignore the "DJ Lover" (or its variants) label that was frequently tossed around or the common pejorative of "Oh, you are just making excuses for DJ"

If you want validation for always being down on DJ, well, congrats, you were right. The team is without a franchise QB.  DJ, for whatever reason, crashed and burned after a pretty good 2022 (this is statistically factual).  Regardless of how it played out, your predictions of Daniel Jones' future with the Giants were (to the detriment of the team) proven correct.

For what it's worth, this entire discussion reminds me of this quote from a man who was not unintelligent


Albert Einstein — 'I'd rather be an optimist and a fool than a pessimist and right.'

And whilst I thank you for the acknowledgement or still can't help yourself with a tiny dig at the end and the impression I was 'down' on DJ - in Gameday threads, I praised him when he did well and criticised when he played poorly. Sadly, the latter occurred more than the former.

Nevermind, you're correct. We are currently without a franchise QB. It's a shame this happened today rather than in 2022 but there we are. Bad decisions come home in all walks of life.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 12:21:07 PMAnd whilst I thank you for the acknowledgement or still can't help yourself with a tiny dig at the end and the impression I was 'down' on DJ - in Gameday threads, I praised him when he did well and criticised when he played poorly. Sadly, the latter occurred more than the former.

Nevermind, you're correct. We are currently without a franchise QB. It's a shame this happened today rather than in 2022 but there we are. Bad decisions come home in all walks of life.

I can't speak to what you said or didn't say on the game thread as I stopped following that thread years ago due to what what I felt was overwhelming and unfair negativity towards Jones.   It got so bad that I just stopped following.  It was bad enough to see my favorite team struggle...

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 11:50:52 AMLOL, I have known Len for over 20 years, and I can't recall a single point over that period when I agreed with him.  So, I think you picked the wrong person to cite in support of your position (at least when discussing it with me)


I will add something that struck me.  @T200 in the Giants dropped from 2nd pick in the draft thread about the randomness and unpredictable nature of the draft and predicting the success and failures of NFL players when pointing out (correctly, in my opinion) that we shouldn't take Bill Belichick's commentary as fact.  Suppose we accept that Bill Belichick's views shouldn't be accepted as fact despite his nearly unmatched football acumen. Why would a single belief about a player (with many outside variables involved) suddenly prove (or disprove) the football acumen of a particular poster?

Again, this is my worldview, but football acumen is hard-earned. It takes time and effort to learn the game of football at a higher level.  Suggesting that saying a quarterback is a bum proves you are a football expert, which is akin to declaring one a roulette expert because you put your money on Red 8 and you won.  Still, this extreme focus on right or wrong is why so many conversations are contentious rather than cooperative.

I will also strongly disagree with your efforts to deny what I said at the time of the contract, as I am not in the habit of lying.

That is your loss.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 12:26:54 PMThat is your loss.

 :cheers:

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on November 19, 2024, 12:21:07 PMAnd whilst I thank you for the acknowledgement or still can't help yourself with a tiny dig at the end and the impression I was 'down' on DJ - in Gameday threads, I praised him when he did well and criticised when he played poorly. Sadly, the latter occurred more than the former.

Nevermind, you're correct. We are currently without a franchise QB. It's a shame this happened today rather than in 2022 but there we are. Bad decisions come home in all walks of life.

We've been without a franchise QB for the past 6 years. The end of an error is upon us.

Lenn,

What was it you said about moving on? The inability of some to do just that is at the heart of the matter, and sadly also of my all too frequent cynicism about what I read here.

Cheers!

I still rhink the epitaph on DJ's tenure will be him falling down against the Eagles..the turf tackle..that should have a great highlight. Ouch.

 Had the measurables..not the execution..ever. and it only got more troubling when the team needed him most. Yada yada about his coaches..the line..he never improved...his awareness..presence..any passion. Nice guy..good person that the Giants held onto and invested too much in.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 12:32:23 PMWe've been without a franchise QB for the past 6 years. The end of an error is upon us.

Eli has here in his rookie campaign.

Slayton has his best game as a pro with Eli throwing to him  ;)

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 19, 2024, 02:32:42 PMEli has here in his rookie campaign.

Slayton has his best game as a pro with Eli throwing to him  ;)

True, but we know that was the end of Eli's career.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 02:42:33 PMTrue, but we know that was the end of Eli's career.

Sadly

Quote from: MrGap92 on November 19, 2024, 02:54:58 PMSadly

Sadly yes, but not to a few on this board who made sure everyone knew every mistake Eli made and were thrilled when he was gone. Sure, the new guy was better, Daniel Jones. Ask a few of them now and they will still insist Jones had the ability to be better.
In a pig's arse.

Quote from: LennG on November 19, 2024, 04:39:42 PMSadly yes, but not to a few on this board who made sure everyone knew every mistake Eli made and were thrilled when he was gone. Sure, the new guy was better, Daniel Jones. Ask a few of them now and they will still insist Jones had the ability to be better.
In a pig's arse.

His 6 years in the NFL, along with his time at Duke, or being a 0 start recruit out of high school, all confirm the pigs arse comment to be true. He was never any good

Great guy, high character, apprecate the effort, just never had the ability.

Instead of dicking around with something as silly as the notion of DeVito increasing the Giants chance of picking No.1 overall from 1 in 8 to 1 in 5, let assume they do in fact end up with the first pick. Oh boy, assuming it to be a Quarterback, or even maybe not, won't that be an exercise in turbidity?

Considering recent behavior around here, we may have to change our name to Big Blue Muddle or better yet, to Big Blue Whine and Jeez.

Cheers!

I'm not sure I understand why or how it is somehow poor behavior if not sacrilege to speak unfavorably about Jones' football ability or to express relief that he is no longer the QB of the team, but it was perfectly fine all these years to completely denigrate numerous other supporting players on this team in an effort to excuse Jones' objectively poor results, especially considering that a number of these other players suddenly did better once they landed in a different organization with a different QB.

Not to mention the countless coaches, coordinators, and other employees who were routinely besmirched by Jones supporters here in the face of any criticism at all about his play from anyone else here.

If all of that was perfectly fine, why is it a problem to say anything negative about Jones' ability? That's not adding up at all for me.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 19, 2024, 07:39:14 PMI'm not sure I understand why or how it is somehow poor behavior if not sacrilege to speak unfavorably about Jones' football ability or to express relief that he is no longer the QB of the team, but it was perfectly fine all these years to completely denigrate numerous other supporting players on this team in an effort to excuse Jones' objectively poor results, especially considering that a number of these other players suddenly did better once they landed in a different organization with a different QB.

Not to mention the countless coaches, coordinators, and other employees who were routinely besmirched by Jones supporters here in the face of any criticism at all about his play from anyone else here.

If all of that was perfectly fine, why is it a problem to say anything negative about Jones' ability? That's not adding up at all for me.

Interesting how you reframed things and how popular the reframing was by the usual suspects.   You essentially removed the "when he is down" part of kicking a man while he is down to create a strawman like claim that criticizing the performance of active Giants is the same as continuing to bash a guy who essentially has been fired.


Jeff, I know you to be an intelligent man and a good person.  I don't know why you would distort the issue so badly with the reframing, nor why you would be an advocate for kicking people while they are down.   


One odd thing, DJ by every indication is a good hard working man.  It's amazing how such a man could bring out the lesser side of so many people.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 12:16:23 PMFair point, although I will add I am not a big fan of talking smack about people behind their back either.  I appreciate the case for no harm, but I just see it as bad form.

So, you would rather thousands of fans on message boards and twitter confront Jones and tell them their thoughts to their face?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:35:12 PMInteresting how you reframed things and how popular the reframing was by the usual suspects.  You essentially removed the "when he is down" part of kicking a man while he is down to create a strawman like claim that criticizing the performance of active Giants is the same as continuing to bash a guy who essentially has been fired.


Jeff, I know you to be an intelligent man and a good person.  I don't know why you would distort the issue so badly with the reframing, nor why you would be an advocate for kicking people while they are down. 


One odd thing, DJ by every indication is a good hard working man.  It's amazing how such a man could bring out the lesser side of so many people.

I think you are personalizing all this Jones stuff too much, Rich. I have never once attacked Jones' character, integrity, or makeup as a man. I have routinely done the exact opposite for years, and I suspect you know that. My only negative comments of Jones have been about his contributions on the football field, particularly relative to his cost. I think my comments have been completely justified and appropriate. If my having made them is the "lesser side" of me, as you put it, then I actually take that as a compliment (even though I understand you did not intend it to be one), because I have done nothing wrong or objectionable. So if that's truly the lesser side of me, then I'm actually very happy with that.

Quote from: coggs on November 19, 2024, 08:58:23 PMSo, you would rather thousands of fans on message boards and twitter confront Jones and tell them their thoughts to their face?

Didn't some fans wait for him after a game  last year and yelled "YOU SUCK!!"?

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 19, 2024, 09:24:01 PMI think you are personalizing all this Jones stuff too much, Rich. I have never once attacked Jones' character, integrity, or makeup as a man. I have routinely done the exact opposite for years, and I suspect you know that. My only negative comments of Jones have been about his contributions on the football field, particularly relative to his cost. I think my comments have been completely justified and appropriate. If my having made them is the "lesser side" of me, as you put it, then I actually take that as a compliment (even though I understand you did not intend it to be one), because I have done nothing wrong or objectionable. So if that's truly the lesser side of me, then I'm actually very happy with that.

This after he made a request to stick to football and refrain from personal attacks.

He let us down for six years, and as much as he tried to make the product entertaining, he failed to do so, he tried his ass off, but trying alone doesn't cut it.

If some are relieved, they deserve to be, a new chapter is finally upon us, with Jones there was never much hope or optimism.

I just don't get why being happy is a problem.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:35:12 PMInteresting how you reframed things and how popular the reframing was by the usual suspects.   You essentially removed the "when he is down" part of kicking a man while he is down to create a strawman like claim that criticizing the performance of active Giants is the same as continuing to bash a guy who essentially has been fired.


Jeff, I know you to be an intelligent man and a good person.  I don't know why you would distort the issue so badly with the reframing, nor why you would be an advocate for kicking people while they are down.   


One odd thing, DJ by every indication is a good hard working man.  It's amazing how such a man could bring out the lesser side of so many people.

"The usual suspects"??...

I sincerely hope I'm reading this the  wrong way.

Quote from: Trench on November 19, 2024, 11:16:18 PM"The usual suspects"??...

I sincerely hope I'm reading this the  wrong way.

It certainly wasn't football related.

Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 11:47:25 PMIt certainly wasn't football related.

And the post I was responding to was???

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 19, 2024, 09:24:01 PMI think you are personalizing all this Jones stuff too much, Rich. I have never once attacked Jones' character, integrity, or makeup as a man. I have routinely done the exact opposite for years, and I suspect you know that. My only negative comments of Jones have been about his contributions on the football field, particularly relative to his cost. I think my comments have been completely justified and appropriate. If my having made them is the "lesser side" of me, as you put it, then I actually take that as a compliment (even though I understand you did not intend it to be one), because I have done nothing wrong or objectionable. So if that's truly the lesser side of me, then I'm actually very happy with that.

Jeff,


First, I agree I do personalize Daniel Jones.   I see him as a human being and not just some number on the field, put there for my entertainment.


Second, your response didnt address what I said.   First, you didn't make it clear, but I assume you were targeting me and my comment that it's bad form to kick a man when he is down (as you said, Jones is no longer going to be on the field and can't impact the team).   So you reframed that comment into, I was saying everyone on the team is fair game but Daniel Jones.   We all know that isn't true, because at this point DJ is on the team in name only.  So what purpose does continued bashing of him serve?

As for respecting the man, I look at the DJ thank you thread.   Not many people appreciated the man.  Hell a bunch of bashing of DJ had to be cleaned out and more appeared.  As I alluded to with the lesser nature comment, for many the animosity toward Jones extends beyond his play on the field (I acknowledge your claims of not being personal in your critiques of Jones).


Look people are free to say what they want within the confines of the forum rules.   I appreciate that in today's America, my values and beliefs have become archaic, and I shouldn't expect many to see things as I do.   I just wanted to correct the false impression that your framing of the issue created.  It's about kicking any man when he's down, not hands off Daniel Jones

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:35:12 PMInteresting how you reframed things and how popular the reframing was by the usual suspects.   You essentially removed the "when he is down" part of kicking a man while he is down to create a strawman like claim that criticizing the performance of active Giants is the same as continuing to bash a guy who essentially has been fired.


Jeff, I know you to be an intelligent man and a good person.  I don't know why you would distort the issue so badly with the reframing, nor why you would be an advocate for kicking people while they are down.   


One odd thing, DJ by every indication is a good hard working man.  It's amazing how such a man could bring out the lesser side of so many people.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 05:43:12 AMAnd the post I was responding to was???

And YOUR post he responded to was???

You can't call a cease fire and then keep firing. We have weapons too.

Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2024, 08:08:02 AMAnd YOUR post he responded to was???

You can't call a cease fire and then keep firing. We have weapons too.

Tim,

I called for a cease-fire, and instead of supporting it, you literally encouraged people to do the opposite by liking a post that broke the cease-fire.  Then, after encouraging people to go back to sniping at one another instead of talking football, you went after me for defending myself.

I am well aware you "have weapons". You have been using them against me for a long time.  Since you referred to yourself as "we".   It's not looking like "we" desire friendly, civil, and respectful discourse about the Giants and football.  Instead you prefer the talk crap about other posters.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 08:12:50 AMTim,

I called for a cease-fire, and instead of supporting it, you literally encouraged people to do the opposite by liking a post that broke the cease-fire.  Then, after encouraging people to go back to sniping at one another instead of talking football, you went after me for defending myself.

I am well aware you "have weapons". You have been using them against me for a long time.  Since you referred to yourself as "we".   It's not looking like "we" desire friendly, civil, and respectful discourse about the Giants and football.  Instead you prefer the talk crap about other posters.

So it's my fault???

How about this? Get rid of the damned "LIKE" feature because you use it to target people!!! Why the hell do you care who likes a post... just so you can blame me because I "LIKE" a post and you automatically assume it's because of something derogatory you feel they said?

You're always the victim and never the instigator, right Rich? Go have a look in the mirror and enjoy your day.

Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2024, 08:16:35 AMSo it's my fault???

How about this? Get rid of the damned "LIKE" feature because you use it to target people!!! Why the hell do you care who likes a post... just so you can blame me because I "LIKE" a post and you automatically assume it's because of something derogatory you feel they said?

You're always the victim and never the instigator, right Rich? Go have a look in the mirror and enjoy your day.

I will share with you that there have been posts where I agreed wth some or much of what was posted.  I refrained from liking the post because there was also questionable content that I didn't want to be seen as endorsing.  For better or worse, as owner or admin, our likes mean more than just our personal feelings, as we represent more than ourselves. 

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 08:28:01 AMI will share with you that there have been posts where I agreed wth some or much of what was posted.  I refrained from liking the post because there was also questionable content that I didn't want to be seen as endorsing.  For better or worse, as owner or admin, our likes mean more than just our personal feelings, as we represent more than ourselves. 

I can't believe you are arguing about a "like" button! Why is it here then?...hitting "like" is not an attack - it's agreeing with a post. In the grand scheme of things it's basically freedom of speech of sorts.

Referring to people as "usual suspects" is antagonist and disrespectful. I myself got in trouble here for referring in the past to "the jones or bust crew"...how is what I got in trouble for anything different than what you posted in this instance?

Playing the victim card and endless fighting by "usual suspects". It must be a Wednesday on the Big Blue Huddle.

There should be an Unlike button. 

Just to sum up what has been discussed.

A few weeks back, I requested an effort to return to civility and focus our discussions on football and the Giants.


A post was made that had nothing to do with football but rather distorted a comment about kicking a player while they are down (in this case, all but fired in name only).

Many people thought that the post didn't talk about football but rather focused exclusively on talking about other people. The forum was something they approved of and agreed with to the point of hitting the like button.

When the person who appeared to be the target of this post and the distortion of his position, restated what had actually been said and noted that they were disappointed by so many people encourage a textbook example of what we needed to avoid to return to civility the following responses were made:

1)  why have a like button if we are going to be held accountable for what we like?

2)  Forget the logical and factual points that were made; I am going to trump that by accusing you of pretending to be a victim.  The great thing about that accusation is that it doesn't have to be even remotely true, and it immediately ends the factual discussion that wasn't going in the favor of the accusor.


Look, we are all in this together.  Right now (and for the past decade) it has sucked to be a Giants fan more often than not.   You guys can continue with sniping and bickering with your fellow posters, or you can honor my request that we try to focus our discussion on football rather than each other.

The choice is yours.   This forum is what we make it.   It can be less than pleasant to give into your lesser angles and put others down, or we can follow the old saying about misery-loving company and focus on the cause of our unhappiness (the NY Giants) rather than one another.

I will share; it's not fun being the owner.  I have to always be the grown-up.  My posts need to be calm and reasoned.  I don't get to enjoy the luxury you enjoy of being rude, angry, or engaging in logical fallacies (if I get something wrong, I have people lining up to correct me).   I will also share my frustration.  I am not happy with the way things are going in the world at large.  I had hoped that I could escape some of the ugliness with this forum, but the same animosity, division, and unpleasantness are here as well.   While logically, I understand that it's natural for the disharmony of the world to seep into our little cyber family of Giants fans, in my heart, I don't know why we are not trying to build one another up and support one another rather than obsessively trying to tear one another down.   I am not referring to disagreement either.  I love the intellectual challenges of a good debate or lively discussion.  It keeps my brain sharp and helps me refine my views.   I just don't understand why disagreements always turn personal like they do.   It's not just one another, either.  I strive to bring quotes from qualified individuals to spark discussion.  Yet, often, the first comment isn't about what that person said; it's a putdown of the person making the comment.   I think I am getting old because I don't find that sort of conversation all that fun or mentally fulfilling.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 11:41:47 AMJust to sum up what has been discussed.

A few weeks back, I requested an effort to return to civility and focus our discussions on football and the Giants.


A post was made that had nothing to do with football but rather distorted a comment about kicking a player while they are down (in this case, all but fired in name only).

Many people thought that the post didn't talk about football but rather focused exclusively on talking about other people. The forum was something they approved of and agreed with to the point of hitting the like button.

When the person who appeared to be the target of this post and the distortion of his position, restated what had actually been said and noted that they were disappointed by so many people encourage a textbook example of what we needed to avoid to return to civility the following responses were made:

1)  why have a like button if we are going to be held accountable for what we like?

2)  Forget the logical and factual points that were made; I am going to trump that by accusing you of pretending to be a victim.  The great thing about that accusation is that it doesn't have to be even remotely true, and it immediately ends the factual discussion that wasn't going in the favor of the accusor.


Look, we are all in this together.  Right now (and for the past decade) it has sucked to be a Giants fan more often than not.   You guys can continue with sniping and bickering with your fellow posters, or you can honor my request that we try to focus our discussion on football rather than each other.

The choice is yours.   This forum is what we make it.   It can be less than pleasant to give into your lesser angles and put others down, or we can follow the old saying about misery-loving company and focus on the cause of our unhappiness (the NY Giants) rather than one another.

I will share; it's not fun being the owner.  I have to always be the grown-up.  My posts need to be calm and reasoned.  I don't get to enjoy the luxury you enjoy of being rude, angry, or engaging in logical fallacies (if I get something wrong, I have people lining up to correct me).   I will also share my frustration.  I am not happy with the way things are going in the world at large.  I had hoped that I could escape some of the ugliness with this forum, but the same animosity, division, and unpleasantness are here as well.   While logically, I understand that it's natural for the disharmony of the world to seep into our little cyber family of Giants fans, in my heart, I don't know why we are not trying to build one another up and support one another rather than obsessively trying to tear one another down.   I am not referring to disagreement either.  I love the intellectual challenges of a good debate or lively discussion.  It keeps my brain sharp and helps me refine my views.   I just don't understand why disagreements always turn personal like they do.   It's not just one another, either.  I strive to bring quotes from qualified individuals to spark discussion.  Yet, often, the first comment isn't about what that person said; it's a putdown of the person making the comment.   I think I am getting old because I don't find that sort of conversation all that fun or mentally fulfilling.

LOOK. IN. THE. MIRROR.

In that entire diatribe, you did not take responsibility for your role in the downfall of this site. Yes, you provide excellent content but you are also a HUGE contributor into how things devolve.

For example: it was YOUR post that lamented the "kicking a guy when he's down." What was the football-related message in that? What were the stats associated with it? You're the one who made it personal and presented your views as some moral high ground and that those who continued to talk about Jones in a less than positive light were painted to be mean-spirited.

When you got push-back, then you want to fall back to, "I requested civility and an end to personal attacks."

Listen: it is your site. Do as you please. Just as you stick up for Jones from our perceived attacks, I will stick up for the general membership from yours.

Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2024, 11:57:45 AMLOOK. IN. THE. MIRROR.

In that entire diatribe, you did not take responsibility for your role in the downfall of this site. Yes, you provide excellent content but you are also a HUGE contributor into how things devolve.

For example: it was YOUR post that lamented the "kicking a guy when he's down." What was the football-related message in that? What were the stats associated with it? You're the one who made it personal and presented your views as some moral high ground and that those who continued to talk about Jones in a less than positive light were painted to be mean-spirited.

When you got push-back, then you want to fall back to, "I requested civility and an end to personal attacks."

Listen: it is your site. Do as you please. Just as you stick up for Jones from our perceived attacks, I will stick up for the general membership from yours.

Tim,

You know that is a fair point.  I did mention in my posts (not post exclusively about my pet peeve) my frustration at the kick-the-man-while-he-is-down approach.  I said that because the overwhelming majority of responses to my posts (regardless of topic) was some variation of "Daniel Jones sucks"  That was just responses to me, even the thank you Daniel Jones post had variations of Daniel Jones sucks.

There was a post by Len directed at me, where he aired a laundry list of what he considered my faults (something Len just loves to do, and you never call him out, you save that for me) and one of his comments was about how he feels that he finds my negative comments about Schoen or Daboll tiresome.   Now it's not like there are a many posters joining me in those critiques of the management of our 2-8 team.  So imagine how it feels when 75% of the posts being put on the forum involve some sort of put down of the QB who has essentially been fired and isn't going to ever impact another Giants game?

Would you prefer, I just walk away from the forum in disgust over what the board had become, or would you prefer I just mention what was bothering me?

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 12:10:24 PMWould you prefer, I just walk away from the forum in disgust over what the board had become, or would you prefer I just mention what was bothering me?

Utilize the PM function. Most of your complaints are things that could be settled privately. I think I speak for many who are flat out sick of your endless fighting with the mods. 

Quote from: TDToomer on November 20, 2024, 02:17:28 PMUtilize the PM function. Most of your complaints are things that could be settled privately. I think I speak for many who are flat out sick of your endless fighting with the mods. 

I will share something with you if I have frequently asked the moderator to show me the respect and courtesy of PMing me if they had an issue with something I said.   You can see how that has worked out for me.

It's kind of funny. While many people respect me, there are a good number of people who show me zero respect for me as the owner of the forum or even as a person.  I literally have to fight for anything I want. Then I have people turn around and complain that I have to fight for what I want.

As I said, I came here to enjoy talking football, not to get into fights.  If you want to disagree with a point I make, have at it and challenge the point as strongly as you wish (just please don't target me as a person, instead).  Just keep in mind that most of my views are the result of considerable thought (and often research), so I will defend my dissertation (To borrow a scholastic term).  Just don't think that because I defend my position, I "haven't listened to you" or that "I don't respect you."

Also, I probably don't acknowledge it enough, but while completely changing my view is rare (like most people), a well-reasoned counterpoint often causes me to make adjustments in my own position.

Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 02:27:14 PMI will share something with you if I have frequently asked the moderator to show me the respect and courtesy of PMing me if they had an issue with something I said.   You can see how that has worked out for me.

It's kind of funny. While many people respect me, there are a good number of people who show me zero respect for me as the owner of the forum or even as a person.  I literally have to fight for anything I want. Then I have people turn around and complain that I have to fight for what I want.

As I said, I came here to enjoy talking football, not to get into fights.  If you want to disagree with a point I make, have at it and challenge the point as strongly as you wish (just please don't target me as a person, instead).  Just keep in mind that most of my views are the result of considerable thought (and often research), so I will defend my dissertation (To borrow a scholastic term).  Just don't think that because I defend my position, I "haven't listened to you" or that "I don't respect you."

Also, I probably don't acknowledge it enough, but while completely changing my view is rare (like most people), a well-reasoned counterpoint often causes me to make adjustments in my own position.

I think you take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously.

Quote from: TDToomer on November 20, 2024, 02:36:02 PMI think you take this forum waaaaaaay too seriously.

As the owner of the forum, it sort of comes with the territory.  There are reasons we have lasted for 17 years, outside of the core of outstanding remembers.   Internet forums are not the hot item they were 20 years ago.  It takes a lot of work and effort (along with my cash since we don't have ads or membership dues) to keep the forum running and thriving (not just me but the moderators as well)

Unfortunately, when you invest that sort of time, effort, and money into a project, you reach a point where "not taking it seriously is not an option.   That said, I can't guarantee the efforts that appeared aimed at driving me away will not ultimately prove successful, especially in light of how little return there is on being a Giants fan these days.