The Giants are tight up against the cap to the point they had to release McCloud when he refused a $2 million pay cut. SEE NOTE BELOW
https://x.com/spotrac/status/1858517974828609543
I just remembered that since these were not likely to be earned incentives, they would count against next year's cap (where they have more money) than this year's cap, where they are tight.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 18, 2024, 03:40:21 PMI just remembered that since these were not likely to be earned incentives, they would count against next year's cap (where they have more money) than this year's cap, where they are tight.
Maybe they're trying to save next year's cap space to sign Aaron Rodgers. :yes:
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 18, 2024, 03:37:43 PMThe Giants are tight up against the cap to the point they had to release McCloud when he refused a $2 million pay cut. SEE NOTE BELOW
https://x.com/spotrac/status/1858517974828609543
Playoff berth incentives obviously aren't a consideration.
Doubtful he would hit any of the snaps incentives. We're more than halfway through--with 7 games left, that's roughly 41% of remaining snaps. If he was trending to get this, they could put DeVito in for a game at the end of the season to ensure he didn't get it.
The other incentives require 224 pass attempts (per Dan Duggan in April of this year). He'd need 30 attempts a game to reach that mark to be eligible. Does not seem outlandish, but I'd imagine they lean more heavily on the run game and this this too wouldn't be met.
I think this move is more about them actually believing DeVito gives them a better chance to win then gaming around an additional $250k or $500k cap hit next year.
This organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Good news, he isn't going to have to ask to get released in a few short months.
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Why? All of this is on Mara. Since 1965, my first year as a fan their regular season W-L record is about 60 games under .500. A historically losing franchise. Players, coaches, GM's all come and go, the one constant is a Mara. The four SB's for me are a mitigating factor in facing the losing. Remember this is the franchise that drafted Rocky Thomson. If it wasn't for Pete Rozelle stepping in we would not have had George Young. No Perkins, Parcells, Coughlin. Before them we had Webster, Robustelli, and more recently Gettleman. All Mara family soldiers. Finally they went outside the organization. However S&D were saddled with the history repeats itself QB from Duke. Mara is the reason we have had Jones for this long. "We've done everything we can to screw up this kid" resulted in the contract. The 2 yr out is the compromise. Here we are. Mara lives in a completely different world than we fans. The value of the Giant franchise in the last ten years has jumped from $2.1 Billion to about $7.3 Billion. Imagine a business that produces a vastly inferior product yet increases in value 3.5 times. Nice gig isn't it. Mara can afford to give Jones his good boy bonus while the customers get agita.
I'm sure we saw the info floating around about how we paid Lock 5 million and Singletary 6 million and neither of them good enough to start for a 2-8 team. All while crying poverty and not being able to pay Barkley. Not a great look as a group of team builders.
I'll never be embarrassed to be a Giants fan, they're my team, I love them and they've given me some helluva happy memories.
Yes they've given me .....angst....but the "no good......wide right" moments outweigh the others.
Anyway, Devito over Lock makes perfect sense.
We still don't know what Tommy is.....my thought is that his ceiling is "serviceable backup".
Lock's is marginally below that IMHO, so makes sense.
Funny, I'm less embarrassed to be a Giants fan today than I was yesterday.
Although the bar is incredibly low.
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jones won't have to be asked as he will soon be released and no team in the NFL will pick him up because he is not a good QB. Let the suck for Sanders period begin!
Quote from: files58 on November 18, 2024, 04:52:50 PMWhy? All of this is on Mara. Since 1965, my first year as a fan their regular season W-L record is about 60 games under .500. A historically losing franchise. Players, coaches, GM's all come and go, the one constant is a Mara. The four SB's for me are a mitigating factor in facing the losing. Remember this is the franchise that drafted Rocky Thomson. If it wasn't for Pete Rozelle stepping in we would not have had George Young. No Perkins, Parcells, Coughlin. Before them we had Webster, Robustelli, and more recently Gettleman. All Mara family soldiers. Finally they went outside the organization. However S&D were saddled with the history repeats itself QB from Duke. Mara is the reason we have had Jones for this long. "We've done everything we can to screw up this kid" resulted in the contract. The 2 yr out is the compromise. Here we are. Mara lives in a completely different world than we fans. The value of the Giant franchise in the last ten years has jumped from $2.1 Billion to about $7.3 Billion. Imagine a business that produces a vastly inferior product yet increases in value 3.5 times. Nice gig isn't it. Mara can afford to give Jones his good boy bonus while the customers get agita.
Heck, there was a time Art Rooney was called a "lovable loser." Chuck Noll took care of that and that franchise, and its six Lombardi Trophies in eight Super Bowl appearances, no longer sees their late patriarch as such.
You can't even use that term on the current Mara family membership. Lovable? I'm not sure even "The Duke" would have made the grade. Respect, absolutely, for Wellington. John, despite two Lombardis under his watch, still takes the back seat to Tom Coughlin who is generally respected universally now, and hopeful to be inducted into the Hall of Fame at the end of this season.
Peace!
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Who would realistically trade for Jones with his bloated contract? The man has zero trade value and is unlikely to be a starting quarterback next season. What you fail to understand is that Jones is the primary reason for the current "mess." Instead of his agent demanding the team get him out of this situation, they should be thanking them for giving a quarterback with limited talent a contract he never earned.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 18, 2024, 07:05:29 PMWho would realistically trade for Jones with his bloated contract? The man has zero trade value and is unlikely to be a starting quarterback next season. What you fail to understand is that Jones is the primary reason for the current "mess." Instead of his agent demanding the team get him out of this situation, they should be thanking them for giving a quarterback with limited talent a contract he never earned.
Absolutely spot on, Matt.
Jones is one of the great cons not just in the NFL but in all of professional sports over the last decade if not few decades. The guy has been flat out bad, and, incredibly, six years into his career he still has some folks believing he is really good and that his perpetual failure is entirely the fault of others.
I follow all four of the big sports pretty closely, and I cannot recall a longer lasting period of denial about a player than what we have witnessed (and are still witnessing) with Daniel Jones. Good for him for managing to fool multiple NFL GMs and an overly emotional owner for all this time until now. Pretty impressive actually.
In any event, you're 100% correct that he objectively has zero trade value. Obviously they'd trade him now if they could, but they clearly can't, as he is worthless with this ludicrous contract. This was obviously the case in the last offseason too. He became unmovable. His next contract will be peanuts in comparison.
Wait, did someone really imply that Jones should be asking his agent to get him out of this mess? Haha. Trade? I do not think the Giants are permitted to trade with CFL teams.
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Now? Nothing from the last decade brought that out? But they finally do the right thing and it's a bridge too far?
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ted
I think even his agent may drop him because he won't be earning very much after this.
I agree that I am also embarrassed to be a Giants fan now, but not because of the front office, but because he may be the biggest flop at QB since Ryan Leaf was drafted, and people thought he could play also. I still remember him bouncing around the league with several coaches thinking they could spin gold out of straw with him. The same will happen to Jones, he will bounce around, maybe get to start a game or two here and there, maybe even win a few games if he falls to a good team, but overall, he was well paid, over well paid for someone who didn't deserve it.
I still remember you citing over and over that there were several teams ready to pounce on him if we didn't draft him at 6. I never believed that for a moment, and only company man Phil Simms ran with that. But, if there were other teams, don't you think they'd be dancing in the street that they didn't draft him?
You are embarrassed to be a Giants fan now, maybe, but more because of their play than anything else.
And you can always switch to the Eagles and root for Barkley.
Quote from: kingm56 on November 18, 2024, 07:05:29 PMWho would realistically trade for Jones with his bloated contract? The man has zero trade value and is unlikely to be a starting quarterback next season. What you fail to understand is that Jones is the primary reason for the current "mess." Instead of his agent demanding the team get him out of this situation, they should be thanking them for giving a quarterback with limited talent a contract he never earned.
The Giants got fleeced in this deal. Jones is set for life and the Giants are trying to climb out of QB Hell.
At least the coach killer won't claim another victim.
Quote from: T200 on November 18, 2024, 09:58:58 PMThe Giants got fleeced in this deal. Jones is set for life and the Giants are trying to climb out of QB Hell.
At least the coach killer won't claim another victim.
In fairness, what were they supposed to do? They had just made the play-offs, he played well that season. Weren't in a position to draft a replacement. The FA QB's who switched teams that year were Brissett, Carr, Dalton, Garoppolo, Heinicke, and Mayfield. Looking back you could say would have been nice to get Mayfield as he signed a 1-year deal for $4MM. At the time, NONE of those players would have instilled confidence in anyone. The franchise tag would have been too expensive and they did not have the cap space. They set it up as a 2 year deal with two 1-year team options for all intents and purposes. Gave him 2 years, I don't put last year on him, but this year he sucked, so goodbye.
Quote from: coggs on November 19, 2024, 07:47:55 AMIn fairness, what were they supposed to do? They had just made the play-offs, he played well that season. Weren't in a position to draft a replacement. The FA QB's who switched teams that year were Brissett, Carr, Dalton, Garoppolo, Heinicke, and Mayfield. Looking back you could say would have been nice to get Mayfield as he signed a 1-year deal for $4MM. At the time, NONE of those players would have instilled confidence in anyone. The franchise tag would have been too expensive and they did not have the cap space. They set it up as a 2 year deal with two 1-year team options for all intents and purposes. Gave him 2 years, I don't put last year on him, but this year he sucked, so goodbye.
Oh, no doubt it was a tough spot for them to be in. But they *did* get the short end of the stick.
I'd be curious to know what Schoen and Daboll *really* wanted to do if they 100% had their way.
Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 07:53:18 AMI'd be curious to know what Schoen and Daboll *really* wanted to do if they 100% had their way.
Yes, me too.
Quote from: todge on November 18, 2024, 04:27:50 PMThis organization is an embarrassment and it's getting worse by the week.
If I'm Jones and his agent, I'm asking for anything to get out of this mess. What are the cap limitations for either trading or releasing Jones.
I'm embarrassed to be a Giants fan now.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Ted.
Because I can see past DJ's issues, I agree this team is a complete mess. Fans are literally celebrating (because they like a high draft pick) the likelihood that the team could end up 2-15. Yet, that would mean Schoen and Daboll took over a 4-13 team three years ago with 7 Pro Bowl Caliber players (Jack Rabbit, Dex, AT, Barkley, McKinney, and Love) and somehow found a way to literally make a worse team than the 4-13 team. That's even spotting them the same QB (that they choose to keep after year one)
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 08:09:30 AMTed.
Because I can see past DJ's issues, I agree this team is a complete mess. Fans are literally celebrating (because they like a high draft pick) the likelihood that the team could end up 2-15. Yet, that would mean Schoen and Daboll took over a 4-13 team three years ago with 7 Pro Bowl Caliber players (Jack Rabbit, Dex, AT, Barkley, McKinney, and Love) and somehow found a way to literally make a worse team than the 4-13 team. That's even spotting them the same QB (that they choose to keep after year one)
Even if the Giants do not win another game this year, which I think is unlikely, I would not agree this team is worse than the team they were handed. When you dig a littttttle bit deeper you'll see that they had to purge a ton of players just to get under the cap disaster Gettleman left. Whoever the GM was at that point was going to have to do the same thing. Since then he's built a solid roster around a miserable QB who has only gotten worse. If you believe Daboll should have done more with Jones that's a fair criticism though I would argue he got about as much out of Jones as anybody possibly could, Jones is just terrible at football. But to say the roster is worse I would disagree with. Because they had all those pro bowlers, and still won 4 games. Now they are younger, faster, more athletic, and average QB play away from being right in the wild card mix. At this point next season after another draft to plug a couple remaining holes,
IF they get the QB pick right (which is a lot easier said than done), I would expect them to be in the hunt for a division title.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 10:53:30 AMEven if the Giants do not win another game this year, which I think is unlikely, I would not agree this team is worse than the team they were handed. When you dig a littttttle bit deeper you'll see that they had to purge a ton of players just to get under the cap disaster Gettleman left. Whoever the GM was at that point was going to have to do the same thing. Since then he's built a solid roster around a miserable QB who has only gotten worse. If you believe Daboll should have done more with Jones that's a fair criticism though I would argue he got about as much out of Jones as anybody possibly could, Jones is just terrible at football. But to say the roster is worse I would disagree with. Because they had all those pro bowlers, and still won 4 games. Now they are younger, faster, more athletic, and average QB play away from being right in the wild card mix. At this point next season after another draft to plug a couple remaining holes, IF they get the QB pick right (which is a lot easier said than done), I would expect them to be in the hunt for a division title.
Parcell's famous quote, "You are what your record says you are," was to warn against revisionist history or mental gymnastics, where you try and paint a team as better or worse than their record.
Also, Schoen inherited 6 Pro Bowl caliber (I forgot L. Williams) in Jack Rabbit, Dex, AT, Barkley, McKinney, and Love
Do they even have 6 Pro-Bowl caliber players on this year's roster?
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 11:02:11 AMParcell's famous quote, "You are what your record says you are," was to warn against revisionist history or mental gymnastics, where you try and paint a team as better or worse than their record.
Also, Schoen inherited 6 Pro Bowl caliber (I forgot L. Williams) in Jack Rabbit, Dex, AT, Barkley, McKinney, and Love
Do they even have 6 Pro-Bowl caliber players on this year's roster?
Yes but pro bowl players are typically two things: Older and expensive. Two things that a rebuilding team needs to purge themselves from. So like I said, ANY incoming GM's plan would have included getting rid of some of most of those guys because if you're old, and expensive, and winning 4 games that's a problem. That's why I think it's a silly stat to point to.
However for the sake of this exercise pro bowl caliber players meaning playing at the level a pro bowler would play at not necessarily being voted to the actual team:
Thomas
Lawrence
Nabers
Burns
Okereke
Philips
Tracy
Not one of them are 30 years old yet, and 3 of them are rookies.
Schoen's doing a good job so far. Not perfect, but good. He should have traded Barkley/McKinney last year, that's a miss. But he's built a solid roster that's being dragged down by truly miserable QB play.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 11:21:06 AMYes but pro bowl players are typically two things: Older and expensive. Two things that a rebuilding team needs to purge themselves from. So like I said, ANY incoming GM's plan would have included getting rid of some of most of those guys because if you're old, and expensive, and winning 4 games that's a problem. That's why I think it's a silly stat to point to.
However for the sake of this exercise pro bowl caliber players meaning playing at the level a pro bowler would play at not necessarily being voted to the actual team:
Thomas
Lawrence
Nabers
Burns
Okereke
Philips
Tracy
Not one of them are 30 years old yet, and 3 of them are rookies.
Schoen's doing a good job so far. Not perfect, but good. He should have traded Barkley/McKinney last year, that's a miss. But he's built a solid roster that's being dragged down by truly miserable QB play.
The majority of your Pro Bowl caliber players are projections rather than playing at a Pro Bowl level (minus the holdovers Dex, AT, and adding in Burns). Okereke has taken a major step back. Carl Banks is very concerned with the bad habits Nabers is showing on the field, and I am not sure what qualifies Nubin as Pro Bowl. Philips is looking good if his playing with his hair on fire approach doesn't continue to leave him nicked up.
Jack Rabbit was not nearly pro bowl caliber when he left here. Guy was horrible at tackling and was getting beat regularly
Quote from: T200 on November 19, 2024, 07:53:18 AMOh, no doubt it was a tough spot for them to be in. But they *did* get the short end of the stick.
I'd be curious to know what Schoen and Daboll *really* wanted to do if they 100% had their way.
Yeah, me too. The FA QB class was thin that year. After making play-offs, can't imagine they thought one of the QB's I mentioned would be able to bring them back to the play-offs. I think if they had their druthers, they would have waited, let market play out for Jones. Not sure anyone else would have given him the same guaranteed money the Giants did. BUT in their defense, that would have been VERY risky. All you need is ONE other GM to want him, and the contract may have been worse or they would have been stuck with someone worse.
Quote from: Trench on November 19, 2024, 11:35:06 AMJack Rabbit was not nearly pro bowl caliber when he left here. Guy was horrible at tackling and was getting beat regularly
I am sorry, I got my cornerbacks mixed up, I meant- James Bradberry
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 11:25:00 AMThe majority of your Pro Bowl caliber players are projections rather than playing at a Pro Bowl level (minus the holdovers Dex, AT, and adding in Burns). Okereke has taken a major step back. Carl Banks is very concerned with the bad habits Nabers is showing on the field, and I am not sure what qualifies Nubin as Pro Bowl. Philips is looking good if his playing with his hair on fire approach doesn't continue to leave him nicked up.
Nabers is leading all rookies in most receiving categories and was absolutely electric when the games meant something. I never said anything about Nubin, although since you bring him up he is leading all rookies in tackles and could be on this list in the next year or so. And the young guys I did mention are playing at a pro bowl level right now which I thought was the purpose of that exercise.
Quote from: Gmo11 on November 19, 2024, 07:39:07 PMNabers is leading all rookies in most receiving categories and was absolutely electric when the games meant something. I never said anything about Nubin, although since you bring him up he is leading all rookies in tackles and could be on this list in the next year or so. And the young guys I did mention are playing at a pro bowl level right now which I thought was the purpose of that exercise.
Nabers was a leader pre-concussion, his production has taled off since his return. I liked him being drafted, but I knew he came with risk and I more concerned about that risk now than when he was drafted.
As for Nubin, he was drafted as a ball hawk and the Giants have how many INTs this season?
They might as well tell DJ to go home. He'll never take another snap for the Giants, and do you want him in moth balls! on the sidelines?
I'd say no. Let him check out. It's embarrassing for him. Give him some dignity. It's over.
Quote from: spiderblue43 on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PMThey might as well tell DJ to go home. He'll never take another snap for the Giants, and do you want him in moth balls! on the sidelines?
I'd say no. Let him check out. It's embarrassing for him. Give him some dignity. It's over.
Do we really expect the Giants to do the right thing. They literally appeared on TV chasing after DJ'S replacement while he was still the starter. That's like flirting with another girl while your current girlfriend is at the table with you. Considering the whole QB situation, you have to wonder why they thought it would be a good idea to do HK off season
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 19, 2024, 07:49:49 PMNabers was a leader pre-concussion, his production has taled off since his return. I liked him being drafted, but I knew he came with risk and I more concerned about that risk now than when he was drafted.
As for Nubin, he was drafted as a ball hawk and the Giants have how many INTs this season?
I have no concerns about Nabers just yet. And I also didn't mention Nubin until you brought him up. He's not there yet but he's playing pretty well and could get to that level with some experience.
Jones is being paid. He's a professional. You don't get to just stay home. That isn't how it works. He would never stay home anyway. He's a good person and a better teammate.
No doubt that the incentives were a factor in the decision but what does it matter? Folks around here don't really care about it, one way or the other. All anyone seems interested in, no matter the subject, is bitching and moaning, and mewling about how awful the Giants are as a team, as an organization, as a franchise.
Well, I've got some news for those querulous, malcontented, so-called Giants fans. With only a couple of brief stretches- about 2 1/2- during the past 75 years, it is who they have been and are once again. So, you're not so special after all. No one is asking you to like it, but please do your lumping somewhere else as the Giants are no more of an embarrassment than what is happening right here at Big Blue Whine and Jeez! Big Blue Boo Hoo! :'(
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on November 20, 2024, 11:40:57 AMNo doubt that the incentives were a factor in the decision but what does it matter? Folks around here don't really care about it, one way or the other. All anyone seems interested in, no matter the subject, is bitching and moaning, and mewling about how awful the Giants are as a team, as an organization, as a franchise.
Well, I've got some news for those querulous, malcontented, so-called Giants fans. With only a couple of brief stretches- about 2 1/2- during the past 75 years, it is who they have been and are once again. So, you're not so special after all. No one is asking you to like it, but please do your lumping somewhere else as the Giants are no more of an embarrassment than what is happening right here at Big Blue Whine and Jeez! Big Blue Boo Hoo! :'(
Cheers!
Larry,
We are all unhappy as fans of the New York Giants, and we all share your frustration. What is the point of not focusing any of the ire of that frustration/unhappiness at the source? I appreciate your strong views on stoicism, and those principles put a value on not blaming the team. That said, sometimes I think it's worth addressing the cause rather than people who have nothing to do with the problem.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 11:48:47 AMLarry,
We are all unhappy as fans of the New York Giants, and we all share your frustration. What is the point of not focusing any of the ire of that frustration/unhappiness at the source? I appreciate your strong views on stoicism, and those principles put a value on not blaming the team. That said, sometimes I think it's worth addressing the cause rather than people who have nothing to do with the problem.
Rich,
I am no less a critic than I am right now when I feel it serves a purpose that is not as ignorant and egoistic and self-serving as that which has come to dominate the forum in recent days if not weeks. It's has become a self-sustaining trend which ought to be acknowledged as having a corrosive nature and effect.
Cheers! Really?