It's not often someone would say follow the Jets lead. But if this franchise is serious about leaving the dumps you clean house. I don't see the benefits of one more terrible year with this regime.
Quote from: Messiah717 on November 20, 2024, 10:55:31 AMIt's not often someone would say follow the Jets lead. But if this franchise is serious about leaving the dumps you clean house. I don't see the benefits of one more terrible year with this regime.
In order for this to be true, they also need to dump Rodgers and all his toys. Which they very well might do.
But part of their undoing has been the failed strategy of bringing in a past-his-prime QB, handing him all the power (over the coaches, over personnel de onions), and then still failing after giving the "savior" everything he asked for.
From that perspective, I absolutely hope we do not follow their lead.
It will be interesting to see how the Giants team plays this weekend (notwithstanding the QB)...do they play inspired football or do they show flatness?....that could go a long way towards deciding the fate of the coach/GM in terms of the locker room
So should they sign Aaron Rodgers when he's a free agent after this season?
Follow the Jets lead to get out of this mess? Do you not see how much of a dumpster fire they are?
No thanks
It's interesting to see some of the posts by people who say, "Fire Daboll! We don't want him picking and corrupting the next QB."
Unfortunately, that sentiment conveniently forgets that Mara's influence is the root of these issues. Fire Daboll and guess whose horrible record of picking GMs and coaches will be on full display?
Quote from: MrGap92 on November 20, 2024, 11:04:15 AMFollow the Jets lead to get out of this mess? Do you not see how much of a dumpster fire they are?
No thanks
Better than kicking the same can of hope down the road. As some have said. Let's see what happens with the team with Jones benched.
Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2024, 11:12:17 AMIt's interesting to see some of the posts by people who say, "Fire Daboll! We don't want him picking and corrupting the next QB."
Unfortunately, that sentiment conveniently forgets that Mara's influence is the root of these issues. Fire Daboll and guess whose horrible record of picking GMs and coaches will be on full display?
I was going to point out that the issues go beyond Daboll and, ultimately, are the result of a broken organization from top to bottom. That said, two things can both be true.
1) The organization can be fundamentally flawed and in need of fixing
2) Based on their career track record (the latest being his starting QB playing progressively worse after a good year one with him), that shows that outside of 2 seasons with uber-talented Josh Allen, Daboll hasn't shown to be the QB guru he has the reputation of being. Plus, there are other HC issues that we learned of at the end of last season.
Ultimately, I think this team needs to show (the GM's claims of being better are not really of value in light of his hopes of keeping his job) that it's significantly better than the 4-13 team (with 6 or 7 Pro-Bowl-level stars) that they took over three seasons ago. If their record is the same or worse than the 4-13, I am hard-pressed to justify believing that more time will produce different results.
That is just my opinion; I certainly do not discount other points of view.
Quote from: MightyGiants on November 20, 2024, 11:56:25 AMI was going to point out that the issues go beyond Daboll and, ultimately, are the result of a broken organization from top to bottom. That said, two things can both be true.
1) The organization can be fundamentally flawed and in need of fixing
2) Based on their career track record (the latest being his starting QB playing progressively worse after a good year one with him), that shows that outside of 2 seasons with uber-talented Josh Allen, Daboll hasn't shown to be the QB guru he has the reputation of being. Plus, there are other HC issues that we learned of at the end of last season.
Ultimately, I think this team needs to show (the GM's claims of being better are not really of value in light of his hopes of keeping his job) that it's significantly better than the 4-13 team (with 6 or 7 Pro-Bowl-level stars) that they took over three seasons ago. If their record is the same or worse than the 4-13, I am hard-pressed to justify believing that more time will produce different results.
That is just my opinion; I certainly do not discount other points of view.
I agree with #1.
What I am about to say is not an attack on you or your support of Jones.
You have advocated during his entire career, and correctly so, that Jones needed better pass protection, coaching, and WR targets. No one disagreed. For six years, you have repeatedly said that it was very hard to fairly judge Jones without adequate support.
Why does that same line of thinking not apply to Schoen and Daboll? They need an owner who doesn't meddle. They need talent on the roster to produce on the field. The key missing piece of this offense that has been lacking is the QB. Without an NFL-quality starter at QB, how can Daboll's offense (what he's known for) be fairly judged, especially after just two seasons?
Quote from: T200 on November 20, 2024, 12:03:47 PMI agree with #1.
What I am about to say is not an attack on you or your support of Jones.
You have advocated during his entire career, and correctly so, that Jones needed better pass protection, coaching, and WR targets. No one disagreed. For six years, you have repeatedly said that it was very hard to fairly judge Jones without adequate support.
Why does that same line of thinking not apply to Schoen and Daboll? They need an owner who doesn't meddle. They need talent on the roster to produce on the field. The key missing piece of this offense that has been lacking is the QB. Without an NFL-quality starter at QB, how can Daboll's offense (what he's known for) be fairly judged, especially after just two seasons?
In your comparison of Jones vs. Schoen and Daboll, unless your name is Aaron Rodgers, a quarterback doesn't have any control over his support. Even to that end, protection is still below NFL standards, his receivers have a bad habit of dropping passes, and Daboll's play calling appears worse than Kafkas).
To your point about Schoen and Daboll needing an owner who doesn't "meddle"- How did Tom Coughlin and Jerry Reese win not one but two Super Bowls with the same meddling owner?
To your point of a franchise QB- The 4-13 team we are using as a basis for comparison had the same QB (and actually was forced to use far worse backup QBs). In 2022, it was shown that the team could win enough games and even win a playoff game with Jones behind center and a sub-par supporting cast. So there is a question about why they got progressively less and less performance from the same QB in his prime years. Now, admittedly, injury or mental issues due to the physical abuse may be the answer. To get less and less production from the same QB is generally not a positive coaching (and, to a far lesser degree, GM) indicator.
One other note: the team had options to pursue better backups or even replace DJ at some point. So the QB they had in year three, in light that they declined the franchise tag or released him and opted to sign him to a $40 million per veteran contract, is on them. By year three, I am hard press to see their starting QB as an extenuating circumstance beyond their control (either by replacement or coaching the player up)
I'm still on the Daboll and Schoen train.
No team should ever take a page out of the Jets book. Hell, I don't want the Giants ever opening or even looking at the cover of the Jets book.
I mean the cowboys are considering Deion or Belichick, is that really better than what we have currently?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 20, 2024, 04:26:07 PMI mean the cowboys are considering Deion or Belichick, is that really better than what we have currently?
I may be wrong, but I would still take BB in a heartbeat. Give him a decent enough QB and he can still be a hell of a coach, at least IMVHO. If I had to choose between Daboll and BB, you know where I lean. Daboll might be OK and he may prove to be a better than he has shown coach, but BB is the GOAT.
Quote from: LennG on November 20, 2024, 05:38:49 PMI may be wrong, but I would still take BB in a heartbeat. Give him a decent enough QB and he can still be a hell of a coach, at least IMVHO. If I had to choose between Daboll and BB, you know where I lean. Daboll might be OK and he may prove to be a better than he has shown coach, but BB is the GOAT.
Lenn,
I am with you that Belichick can still be a good if not great coach. That part doesn't particularly concern me. My concern with him is on the roster building side. He really did a horrible job there in his later years in NE and left that roster in absolute shambles. Many of his draft picks were shocking. That was 100% on him because he was singularly in charge. I cannot see any way Belichick would agree to come to the Giants and just be the coach and not insist on having a major say in the roster, if not the final say. Based on the results in NE once he lost Brady, I'm not sure I want that being brought to the Giants, even with him being a great coach.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on November 20, 2024, 04:26:07 PMI mean the cowboys are considering Deion or Belichick, is that really better than what we have currently?
I believe BB has the ability to fix the broken Giants organization.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 20, 2024, 05:53:21 PMLenn,
I am with you that Belichick can still be a good if not great coach. That part doesn't particularly concern me. My concern with him is on the roster building side. He really did a horrible job there in his later years in NE and left that roster in absolute shambles. Many of his draft picks were shocking. That was 100% on him because he was singularly in charge. I cannot see any way Belichick would agree to come to the Giants and just be the coach and not insist on having a major say in the roster, if not the final say. Based on the results in NE once he lost Brady, I'm not sure I want that being brought to the Giants, even with him being a great coach.
That's where we disagree. Again, this is just my opinion, but I think he knows he has one more chance to get the record for most wins and I also think he knows that he is getting on in years and doing both jobs, HC and GM may be in the past. Yes, he has always been a control freak, but age takes its toll. If he believes in the GM, I think he could/would concentrate on building a team on the field.
I agree his drafts have been awful and who knows if Mara even wants him here. I can see him in Dallas, but there he will always have Jerrah there to look over his shoulder, so I doubt that. I still think the Giants are a good fit for me and he will bring some much needed football knowledge to this team.