Kevin O'Connell came to the Vikings the same year as Daboll. He won 13 games, most very close wins, in his first year with Kirk Cousins and a shaky defense with Leslie Frazier as DC. The Giants beat them in that playoff game (as I thought they would. I thought the Giants were the better team at that time). The following year they brought in Brian Flores to fix the defense and it got better but Cousins tore his Achilles and played 8 games and went 4 and 4. Once he was gone the team used Nick Mullens and Josh Dobbs as QB and went 3-6 the rest of the year. This year they are heading into the final week with pick up Sam Darnold with the chance to be the number one seed in the NFC.
The Giants won 10 games with Daboll in 2022 and a playoff game. The following year the team went 5-10 and this year they are currently a 3 win team. Why can one team succeed so well while another just flounders and regresses? GM? Coach? Staff? Roster? What made the Vikings rise and the Giants fall? QB only? Good case study, I think.
The Vikings had QBs that fit their system. The Giants have had Daniel Jones who has been atrocious.
Before this season, Giants have not had an elite WR, they have had Justin Jefferson every year.
Giants have also sustained far more injuries. But, overall, Minnesota has done well for themselves and have been more successful. They have drafted very well. Trading Diggs foe Jefferson was a stroke of genius for them.
I'll be rooting for them or Detroit in the NFC this year. Though I want the Chiefs to three peat.
Quote from: katkavag ine on December 31, 2024, 10:23:23 AMKevin O'Connell came to the Vikings the same year as Daboll. He won 13 games, most very close wins, in his first year with Kirk Cousins and a shaky defense with Leslie Frazier as DC. The Giants beat them in that playoff game (as I thought they would. I thought the Giants were the better team at that time). The following year they brought in Brian Flores to fix the defense and it got better but Cousins tore his Achilles and played 8 games and went 4 and 4. Once he was gone the team used Nick Mullens and Josh Dobbs as QB and went 3-6 the rest of the year. This year they are heading into the final week with pick up Sam Darnold with the chance to be the number one seed in the NFC.
The Giants won 10 games with Daboll in 2022 and a playoff game. The following year the team went 5-10 and this year they are currently a 3 win team. Why can one team succeed so well while another just flounders and regresses? GM? Coach? Staff? Roster? What made the Vikings rise and the Giants fall? QB only? Good case study, I think.
Good points, all of them.
And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team. Over and over our picks were to help an inept QB who, no matter who we got for him, still couldn't play.
Plus we are burdened with a coach who has surrounded himself with lower than average coaches. Our DC is a joke and was one when he was hired. We really haven't had an OC that can call as anything since Daboll has been here.
Plus we have an owner that thinks he knows it all and relies on sentiment instead of reality.
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 31, 2024, 10:31:35 AMThe Vikings had QBs that fit their system. The Giants have had Daniel Jones who has been atrocious.
Before this season, Giants have not had an elite WR, they have had Justin Jefferson every year.
Giants have also sustained far more injuries. But, overall, Minnesota has done well for themselves and have been more successful. They have drafted very well. Trading Diggs foe Jefferson was a stroke of genius for them.
I'll be rooting for them or Detroit in the NFC this year. Though I want the Chiefs to three peat.
You talk about the system. The coach gets credit for that,no? And also putting together a capable staff. The GM has drafted well and made the right free agency moves and trades. He deserves credit for their success as well. Sadly the Giants have been the opposite in those areas. I think those are the significant differences and why the Giants are a losing franchise.
Quote from: LennG on December 31, 2024, 10:34:55 AMGood points, all of them.
And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team. Over and over our picks were to help an inept QB who, no matter who we got for him, still couldn't play.
Plus we are burdened with a coach who has surrounded himself with lower than average coaches. Our DC is a joke and was one when he was hired. We really haven't had an OC that can call as anything since Daboll has been here.
Plus we have an owner that thinks he knows it all and relies on sentiment instead of reality.
I agree the QB burdened the team significantly but the coach and GM have done very little to strengthen the team and overall staff and organization beyond the QB issue.
Kevin O'Connell > Brian Daboll
A team with a better head coach is going to have a competitive advantage
The Vikings also banked on "smart" in their GM selection
Vikings GM- Adofo-Mensah
A bachelor's degree in economics from Princeton, where he also played basketball. Adofo-Mensah received his master's degree in economics from Stanford.
Giants GM- Joe Schoen
Schoen graduated from DePauw University in 2001 with a communications degree.
Another vote for the QB being the biggest difference.
JJ was drafted to start while Darnold was brought in to be the backup.
Who knows how the season would have turned out for them if JJ didn't get injured.
Regardless, they're in a great spot in that they don't have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field.
Quote from: LennG on December 31, 2024, 10:34:55 AMGood points, all of them.
And yes the answer is QB. We kept trying to add pieces trying to make Jones better at the expense of the rest of the team.
The picks that generally help a QB are O-line and receiver. I can't see drafting either position as being "at the expense of the team"
The reality is that Joe Schoen's track record of drafting O-line is objectively bad. His track record at WR is slightly better, thanks to Nabers. 2nd rounder Robinson has not lived up to his draft position. Hyatt is approaching bust status, as much as a 3rd rounder can "bust"
Also, has Schoen really sacrificed to try and improve the QB play? Which of the "helps the QB picks" were also not in a position of need?
Picks that help a QB
Evan Neal
Wan'Dale Robinson
Joshua Ezeudu
Daniel Bellinger
Marcus McKethan
John Michael Schmitz
Jalin Hyatt
Malik Nabers
Theo Johnson
Picks that don't directly help a QB
Kayvon Thibodeaux
Cordale Flott
Dane Belton
D.J. Davidson
Darrian Beavers
Eric Gray
Tre Hawkins
Jordon Riley
Gervarrius Owens
Tyler Nubin
Andru Phillips
Tyrone Tracy Jr.
Darius Muasau
Quote from: T200 on December 31, 2024, 10:44:38 AMAnother vote for the QB being the biggest difference.
JJ was drafted to start while Darnold was brought in to be the backup.
Who knows how the season would have turned out for them if JJ didn't get injured.
Regardless, they're in a great spot in that they don't have a huge question mark at the most important position on the field.
It's not like the Vikings already had their franchise QB. I am confused about the idea that the Giants were "burdened by their QB" when the Giants were in the same position as the Vikings in terms of acquiring both Darnold and JJ.
You can say the Giants administration created their own handicap by not acquiring the QBs the Vikings did (although I doubt they would have played as well with NYG) but it's not like one team started off with a franchise QB and the other didn't or that the Vikings lucked into a high pick when there was elite QB prospects available to draft.
Both teams started even and the team with the better management pulled way ahead
Where someone got their degree is not relevant
Both have good NFL experience/history, far more valuable than their degree.
Asafos drafts have not been much better than Schoens, though he has hit on some FAs, and uncovered a quality UDFA in Ivan Pace, but he inherited a much more talented roster to begin with, he also didn't have to dig through cap hell as much either.
Though, to his credit, he has kept it afloat and they keep winning.
Quote from: MightyGiants on December 31, 2024, 10:52:10 AMIt's not like the Vikings already had their franchise QB. I am confused about the idea that the Giants were "burdened by their QB" when the Giants were in the same position as the Vikings in terms of acquiring both Darnold and JJ.
You can say the Giants administration created their own handicap by not acquiring the QBs the Vikings did (although I doubt they would have played as well with NYG) but it's not like one team started off with a franchise QB and the other didn't or that the Vikings lucked into a high pick when there was elite QB prospects available to draft.
Both teams started even and the team with the better management pulled way ahead
You're right, Rich, in that neither team had their franchise QBs and both had a chance to take Darnold and McCarthy.
I can only surmise that, in NY, the owner was 100% sold on Jones but was open to Schoen getting a QB in the draft. In Minny, they knew Cousins needed to be replaced at some point and drafted McCarthy. No one saw this season from Darnold.
In both situations, they were looking to move on from their incumbent QBs. NY couldn't get the guy they wanted. Minnesota did.
Quote from: T200 on December 31, 2024, 10:58:06 AMYou're right, Rich, in that neither team had their franchise QBs and both had a chance to take Darnold and McCarthy.
I can only surmise that, in NY, the owner was 100% sold on Jones but was open to Schoen getting a QB in the draft. In Minny, they knew Cousins needed to be replaced at some point and drafted McCarthy. No one saw this season from Darnold.
In both situations, they were looking to move on from their incumbent QBs. NY couldn't get the guy they wanted. Minnesota did.
Cousins, while not great, in MIN and WAS prior, still played at a much higher level than Jones ever has, and likely ever will. They also have had something Giants have not had before this year, elite WR options.
Here is Asafos drafts in Minnsota, I'd argue as of now, we have actually drafted better
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/min/draft.htm
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St wAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2024 1 J.J. McCarthy 10 QB 0 0 0 Michigan
2024 1 Dallas Turner 17 LB 2024 0 0 0 0 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 3.0 Alabama
2024 4 Khyree Jackson 108 DB 0 0 0 Oregon
2024 6 Walter Rouse 177 OL 2024 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Oklahoma
2024 6 Will Reichard 203 K 2024 0 0 0 0 12 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Alabama
2024 7 Michael Jurgens 230 OL 2024 0 0 0 0 3 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Wake Forest
2024 7 Levi Drake Rodriguez 232 DT 2024 0 0 0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Texas A&M-Commerce
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St wAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2023 1 Jordan Addison 23 WR 2024 0 0 2 7 31 0 0 0 0 0 4 22 1 132 1786 19 USC
2023 3 Mekhi Blackmon 102 CB 2023 0 0 0 2 15 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 USC
2023 4 Jay Ward 134 S 2024 0 0 0 1 32 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 LSU
2023 5 Jaquelin Roy 141 DT 2024 0 0 0 1 18 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2.0 LSU
2023 5 Jaren Hall 164 QB 2023 0 0 0 1 3 13 20 168 0 1 6 14 0 0 BYU
2023 7 DeWayne McBride 222 RB 0 0 0 Ala-Birmingham
Year Rnd Player Pick Pos To AP1 PB St wAV G Cmp Att Yds TD Int Att Yds TD Rec Yds TD Int Sk College/Univ
2022 1 Lewis Cine 32 DB 2024 0 0 0 0 11 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Georgia
2022 2 Andrew Booth 42 CB 2024 0 0 0 2 29 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Clemson
2022 2 Ed Ingram 59 G 2024 0 0 3 13 47 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 LSU
2022 3 Brian Asamoah 66 LB 2024 0 0 0 2 45 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Oklahoma
2022 4 Akayleb Evans 118 DB 2024 0 0 1 6 33 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 Missouri
2022 5 Esezi Otomewo 165 DT 2024 0 0 0 0 9 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0.5 Minnesota
2022 5 Ty Chandler 169 RB 2024 0 0 0 4 36 0 0 0 0 0 164 663 3 27 201 0 North Carolina
2022 6 Vederian Lowe 184 OL 2024 0 0 1 3 28 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 4 1 Illinois
2022 6 Jalen Nailor 191 WR 2024 0 0 0 1 37 0 0 0 0 0 3 -4 0 37 569 7 Michigan St.
2022 7 Nick Muse 227 TE 2024 0 0 0 0 16 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 22 0 South Carolina
Better play at the most important position is the most telling thing here.
Still, excuse after excuse. This place is getting tiring.
Was the opening day debacle all on Jones? Daboll's lack of preparation had nothing to do with it. While O'Connell had his team ready to play on the road. I was the biggest Jones basher here but to ignore all the other issues is blindness.
Quote from: katkavage on December 31, 2024, 11:21:37 AMWas the opening day debacle all on Jones? Daboll's lack of preparation had nothing to do with it. While O'Connell had his team ready to play on the road. I was the biggest Jones basher here but to ignore all the other issues is blindness.
I don't know why this is being said when no one does that. :-??
Quote from: katkavage on December 31, 2024, 11:21:37 AMWas the opening day debacle all on Jones? Daboll's lack of preparation had nothing to do with it. While O'Connell had his team ready to play on the road. I was the biggest Jones basher here but to ignore all the other issues is blindness.
Are we talking about a 3 year trajectory, and things behind it all, or are we talking about a single game from Week 1? Which is it?
Or is this just veiled shots at Daboll? It seems everyone has been on topic before this post. No one even mentioned the week 1 game before you, so to falsely accuse people of excusing anything (or not) is ludicrous.
Quote from: T200 on December 31, 2024, 11:25:50 AMI don't know why this is being said when no one does that. :-??
If you don't support the firing of Daboll and/or Schoen, you instantly dismiss everything, even that of which is unsaid by yourself or others, thought you knew that :P :P :P
Quote from: MrGap92 on December 31, 2024, 11:30:25 AMIf you don't support the firing of Daboll and/or Schoen, you instantly dismiss everything, even that of which is unsaid by yourself or others, thought you knew that :P :P :P
Oh... consider me aware now. 8))
The difference was correcting a mistake, biting the bullet and dumping Cousins. Atlanta then went and made the same mistake. They have to carry him another year.
By moving on From Cousins they stepped in xxxx with Darnold and drafted JJ.
Darnold has been nothing short of spectacular.
Detroit is another example of turning a team around. All that said, both teams have a winning culture. The HCs made the difference. Look at all the injuries Detroit has and is still winning.
It should be a great game this weekend.
Yes, it's about QB play for sure. Even so, we should never underestimate the role of chance in that regard. All credit to Eli Manning, who was lucky enough to never miss a single start due to injury in his 248 total games played. And even more so, for despite a 117-117 Regular Season Career QBRec, he is now HOF-worthy for not once but twice wildcarding his way to a Lombardi Trophy MVP not to mention beating the once 18-0 GOAT twice. Predictable, even slightly, was it?
Along those lines, it was absolutely predictable that Gettleman would eschew Sam Darnold as Eli's successor in favor of his "gold jacket" RB Saquon Barkley. And until right now, that looked like a no brainer. But, 7 years and 4 teams later, Darnold has already won more games this year than Eli's best season. But how much will that matter as he and the Vikings approach their Brady...I mean Mahomes...moment, or in the future with a big bucks multiyear payout which the Vikes can well-afford. Quien sabe?
Attribute it to Twin Cities Oh Ya! Wisdom, if you like, but Darnold was Buono fortuna...unless you are Italian in which case, Il boca al Lupo would be better said. In any case, in the NFL, Not For Long applies every bit as much to GMs and especially to HCs. It always comes down to what have you done for, or to me, lately, and who can I blame?
Forget the Vikings and the three other teams that proceeded them. Had Gettleman taken Darnold, do we really think either one of their histories would have been any different. I suppose Darnold would have lasted longer with the Giants, much as was the case with Daniel Jones.
That brings us back to the reality that whatever you "traject"/project, unless you get above average performance at QB, you are likely to get below average performance overall. And never underestimate the role of chance/luck/fortune in that regard, nor where credit and blame are to follow.
Quote from: Painter on December 31, 2024, 01:46:25 PMYes, it's about QB play for sure. Even so, we should never underestimate the role of chance in that regard. All credit to Eli Manning, who was lucky enough to never miss a single start due to injury in his 248 total games played. And even more so, for despite a 117-117 Regular Season Career QBRec, he is now HOF-worthy for not once but twice wildcarding his way to a Lombardi Trophy MVP not to mention beating the once 18-0 GOAT twice. Predictable, even slightly, was it?
Along those lines, it was absolutely predictable that Gettleman would eschew Sam Darnold as Eli's successor in favor of his "gold jacket" RB Saquon Barkley. And until right now, that looked like a no brainer. But, 7 years and 4 teams later, Darnold has already won more games this year than Eli's best season. But how much will that matter as he and the Vikings approach their Brady...I mean Mahomes...moment, or in the future with a big bucks multiyear payout which the Vikes can well-afford. Quien sabe?
Attribute it to Twin Cities Oh Ya! Wisdom, if you like, but Darnold was Buono fortuna...unless you are Italian in which case, Il boca al Lupo would be better said. In any case, in the NFL, Not For Long applies every bit as much to GMs and especially to HCs. It always comes down to what have you done for, or to me, lately, and who can I blame?
Forget the Vikings and the three other teams that proceeded them. Had Gettleman taken Darnold, do we really think either one of their histories would have been any different. I suppose Darnold would have lasted longer with the Giants, much as was the case with Daniel Jones.
That brings us back to the reality that whatever you "traject"/project, unless you get above average performance at QB, you are likely to get below average performance overall. And never underestimate the role of chance/luck/fortune in that regard, nor where credit and blame are to follow.
You can't underestimate luck. I agree. It propelled the Giants to the playoffs in 2022. But there are some franchises that win consistently, luck or not. Since McVay took over the Rams his teams have had some bad luck with the good, but he puts a viable product out there year after year. Same with Mike Tomlin. John Harbaugh. We shall see if Kevin O'Connell keeps his team consistently competitive good luck or bad. The Giants as presently constituted do not have the "system" to withstand bad luck.
Quote from: katkavage on December 31, 2024, 01:56:19 PMYou can't underestimate luck. I agree. It propelled the Giants to the playoffs in 2022. But there are some franchises that win consistently, luck or not. Since McVay took over the Rams his teams have had some bad luck with the good, but he puts a viable product out there year after year. Same with Mike Tomlin. John Harbaugh. We shall see if Kevin O'Connell keeps his team consistently competitive good luck or bad. The Giants as presently constituted do not have the "system" to withstand bad luck.
Mike Tomlin has never had a losing season in Pittsburg. Shows you how much a coach does matter.
Quote from: katkavage on December 31, 2024, 01:56:19 PMYou can't underestimate luck. I agree. It propelled the Giants to the playoffs in 2022. But there are some franchises that win consistently, luck or not. Since McVay took over the Rams his teams have had some bad luck with the good, but he puts a viable product out there year after year. Same with Mike Tomlin. John Harbaugh. We shall see if Kevin O'Connell keeps his team consistently competitive good luck or bad. The Giants as presently constituted do not have the "system" to withstand bad luck.
I find it interesting that those you mention as having been able to win consistently and remain competitive, and there are others like Sean Payton and Bill Belichick, are Head Coaches. It would seem to suggest that aside from being exceptional leaders, they have had as much to do with buying groceries as cooking dinner. Ya think?
In any case, no matter how we slice and dice and turn in circles looking for someone to blame for the Giants bad luck, both recent and in general, he probably always will wear the surname MARA. And whatever we may think of Schoen and Daboll, individually or collectively, they will face a hellova challenge in finding a winner QB for the future, one way or another. Sine qua non.
Btw, as an aside, do you share the notion that the team's uncharacteristic strong performance last Sunday was driven by its desire to show support for Daboll as HC?
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on December 31, 2024, 06:04:15 PMI find it interesting that those you mention as having been able to win consistently and remain competitive, and there are others like Sean Payton and Bill Belichick, are Head Coaches. It would seem to suggest that aside from being exceptional leaders, they have had as much to do with buying groceries as cooking dinner. Ya think?
In any case, no matter how we slice and dice and turn in circles looking for someone to blame for the Giants bad luck, both recent and in general, he probably always will wear the surname MARA. And whatever we may think of Schoen and Daboll, individually or collectively, they will face a hellova challenge in finding a winner QB for the future, one way or another. Sine qua non.
Btw, as an aside, do you share the notion that the team's uncharacteristic strong performance last Sunday was driven by its desire to show support for Daboll as HC?
Cheers!
No. The desire came from within. For themselves. For their futures. Coupled by an absolutely pitiful performance by their mediocre opponent. A victory was due them meaningless as it was with exception to draft order.
Great original post. Vikings managed to get some things right like the HC hire but I have felt that they had much better top shelf talent. Diggs, Adam Thielen, Jefferson, now Hockenson and that's just one position.