Apparently, under Mara, there is no accountability for one of the worst Giants seasons over the past 50 years. Imagine a season so bad that news agencies weren't sending beat reporters to the Atlanta Falcons away game because it was so meaningless, but no one in charge lost their job. :surrender:
https://x.com/NYPost_Schwartz/status/1874810385225957404
I'll wait to hear the official word.
I'd like to see both of them back.
Great News
I think both of them back is better than a lame duck coach or even worse a lame duck GM with a new head coach thirsty for a qb.
I am not going to follow the definition of insanity. Since Mara is not changing the management, there is no reason not to expect more horrible to mediocre seasons moving forward.
We have a terrible management team that has led to a poor roster that is terrible in terms of the details, like penalties and mental errors, and we have no QB. We are likely drafting 8 or 9 with no significant extra draft capital to change the bad roster. The team has some cap space, but the lion's share of that will be needed to sign a mediocre bridge quarterback.
So next year, the odds favor being out of the playoff hunt by Halloween and then winning some meaningless games in the end. Outside of baseless optimism, there is no reason to believe things will change if things are not changed.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 02, 2025, 08:45:11 AMI think both of them back is better than a lame duck coach or even worse a lame duck GM with a new head coach thirsty for a qb.
The team will have a lame duck GM in Schoen who will be desperate to find any quarterback to try to save his and Daboll's jobs.
If they don't make significant progress they will just be fired after the 2025 season. Sure hope they don't make too many long term commitments to mediocre players
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 08:47:53 AMI am not going to follow the definition of insanity. Since Mara is not changing the management, there is no reason not to expect more horrible to mediocre seasons moving forward.
We have a terrible management team that has led to a poor roster that is terrible in terms of the details, like penalties and mental errors, and we have no QB. We are likely drafting 8 or 9 with no significant extra draft capital to change the bad roster. The team has some cap space, but the lion's share of that will be needed to sign a mediocre bridge quarterback.
So next year, the odds favor being out of the playoff hunt by Halloween and then winning some meaningless games in the end. Outside of baseless optimism, there is no reason to believe things will change if things are not changed.
I agree that management has been terrible for over a decade now.
I know you want Schoen and Daboll gone. To me, THAT would be insanity. Mara would just be repeating the cycle that keeps the madness and futility going.
The change that needs to happen is not with the GM and HC being fired, rather, Mara needs to step back and all family members that have a role in the organization needs to be removed, thus removing their influence. That's the insanity.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 08:56:14 AMI agree that management has been terrible for over a decade now.
I know you want Schoen and Daboll gone. To me, THAT would be insanity. Mara would just be repeating the cycle that keeps the madness and futility going.
The change that needs to happen is not with the GM and HC being fired, rather, Mara needs to step back and all family members that have a role in the organization needs to be removed, thus removing their influence. That's the insanity.
In general, one thing I see constantly neglected, is that if Mara goes against his own word this quickly, that is likely to have a negative impact in luring in new quality candidates anyway. No one will feel good about coming in lacking the job security.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 08:56:14 AMI agree that management has been terrible for over a decade now.
I know you want Schoen and Daboll gone. To me, THAT would be insanity. Mara would just be repeating the cycle that keeps the madness and futility going.
The change that needs to happen is not with the GM and HC being fired, rather, Mara needs to step back and all family members that have a role in the organization needs to be removed, thus removing their influence. That's the insanity.
If we used this approach, the Giants never would have had two more Super Bowl trophies. They could have argued that replacing Fassel would be doing the same thing (cycling through coaches) as after Parcells; they went through Handley, Reeves, and then Fassel. They fired Fassel and finally got it right, hiring Tom Coughlin.
More importantly, neither Daboll nor Schoen had demonstrated an aptitude for their jobs.
Daboll's players may love him, but it seems that's more due to Daboll not holding them accountable which leads to mental errors, dropped passes, and needless penalties. Daboll's ability to assemble and manage a coaching staff is among the worst in the league. Daboll's game management is mediocre, at best. He might flash as an offensive play caller/designer, but there is far more than that in terms of being a good head coach.
As for Schoen, he has two terrible drafts and one good draft. He has allowed the team to bleed more talent than they acquired. On Hard Knocks the consensus is that he came off as clueless about building a quality football team, and the results support that conclusion.
There are no reasons to believe the team that has made the team worse in each of the last two seasons will suddenly see the light and turn things around.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 02, 2025, 08:54:11 AMIf they don't make significant progress they will just be fired after the 2025 season. Sure hope they don't make too many long term commitments to mediocre players
I fear they will trade away that team's draft future on a mediocre QB in a Hail Mary play to save their jobs
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:06:28 AMI fear they will trade away that team's draft future on a mediocre QB in a Hail Mary play to save their jobs
I was going to post the same but you beat me to it . I totally agree .
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:05:39 AMIf we used this approach, the Giants never would have had two more Super Bowl trophies. They could have argued that replacing Fassel would be doing the same thing (cycling through coaches) as after Parcells; they went through Handley, Reeves, and then Fassel. They fired Fassel and finally got it right, hiring Tom Coughlin.
More importantly, neither Daboll nor Schoen had demonstrated an aptitude for their jobs.
Daboll's players may love him, but it seems that's more due to Daboll not holding them accountable which leads to mental errors, dropped passes, and needless penalties. Daboll's ability to assemble and manage a coaching staff is among the worst in the league. Daboll's game management is mediocre, at best. He might flash as an offensive play caller/designer, but there is far more than that in terms of being a good head coach.
As for Schoen, he has two terrible drafts and one good draft. He has allowed the team to bleed more talent than they acquired. On Hard Knocks the consensus is that he came off as clueless about building a quality football team, and the results support that conclusion.
There are no reasons to believe the team that has made the team worse in each of the last two seasons will suddenly see the light and turn things around.
No reasons that you're willing to accept. But there are reasons.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 09:13:22 AMNo reasons that you're willing to accept. But there are reasons.
Okay, to clarify, there is no GOOD reason (in my opinion) to believe the management team that has made the team worse in each of the last two seasons will suddenly see the light and turn things around.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:15:52 AMOkay, to clarify, there is no GOOD reason (in my opinion) to believe the management team that has made the team worse in each of the last two seasons will suddenly see the light and turn things around.
I understand your position. :ok:
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 08:38:18 AMI'll wait to hear the official word.
I'd like to see both of them back.
I would also like them both back
Unless we know we are getting back bonafide stellar replacements
It is ironic to me, that many don't want to select from a "weak QB class" but are perfectly happy dipping into a weak HC/GM pool. And what few good candidates there are, are going to be turned away by an owner who went against his word just a few months ago, alongside the last few guys having short lives here also.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 09:45:52 AMIt is ironic to me, that many don't want to select from a "weak QB class" but are perfectly happy dipping into a weak HC/GM pool. And what few good candidates there are, are going to be turned away by an owner who went against his word just a few months ago, alongside the last few guys having short lives here also.
How did you determine this is a "weak HC/GM pool"?
My view of the Giants definition of insanity is Mara changing out HC/GM every three years while keeping his thumb in the pie.
He needs to learn that you can't have it both ways.
STOP publicly advocating for a QB who will never be worth what you invested in him. STOP whining on a cable tv show about how you won't sleep at night if your most popular player, a RB ends up playing for a rival.
Your advocating for the QB made it impossible to invest in the RB based on the cap AND lack of talent along the OL. Had they acquiesced to your whining, your RB would have missed at least three games due to injury and would have produced a little offer half of what he's producing now in a best case scenario.
Your coveted QB would look a a little better due to having a great outlet RB to catch his popgun passes and STILL not solve his inability to consistently throw the ball down field. You know, like today's NFL QB's do these days.
I LOVE Barkley and I wanted to keep him. But two things remain true. One, he's in a much better place. Two, he would've had another wasted year here and we would still be in QB HELL.
John, if you're not able to identify the correct HC/GM combination hire a consultant or Better yet, a President of Football Operations to choose them, and then for the millionth time GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS!!
I honestly don't know if Schoen/Daboll are the right men for the job, because I haven't seen them run the operation without interference. So I am not invested one way or another whether they stay or go, other than I'm getting a little old to witness them starting from scratch YET AGAIN!
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Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:49:23 AMHow did you determine this is a "weak HC/GM pool"?
What candidates do you think are a clear cut upgrade based on who is realistically available as an option for the Giants?
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:51:02 AMYour advocating for the QB made it impossible to invest in the RB based on the cap AND lack of talent along the OL. Had they acquiesced to your whining, your RB would have missed at least three games due to injury and would have produced a little offer half of what he's producing now in a best case scenario.
In all fairness, the reason the Giants couldn't afford Barkley is that the team needed to waste money on veteran O-linemen because Schoen and Daboll were terrible at drafting and developing O-line talent. Had they been even mediocre, they would have had the funds to keep Barkley
If it wasn't so sad, it would be funny. Well at least, if true, and I'm sure it is because Mara is a predictable idiot, we will all be going through this again next year at this time. Last year at this time it was easy to predict that the Giants, unless they got one of the QBs in the draft, would suck again because it was obvious Jones was subpar. Yet they kept him. It is obvious to me that if they keep Schoen and Daboll they will absolutely suck again next year. Good thing I don't waste money on tickets. But I do waste time on this miserable excuse for a franchise.
If they are back we might as well fast forward to next years draft. Both need to go. I guess they want stability no matter if it is losing. As long as they have stability in that.
If majority of people on this board put out an effort like this at work they would be let go. I'm still holding out hope we remove these two on Monday.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 08:48:39 AMThe team will have a lame duck GM in Schoen who will be desperate to find any quarterback to try to save his and Daboll's jobs.
So assuming they win this week which seems all but assured due to the team's aggressive lack of intelligence, I'm not sure they even CAN get into position to get a QB anymore. So maybe the plan is to let these guys suck next year since whoever they bring in isn't going to be able to win without a QB regardless and then fire them after next season.
Of course then whoever comes in next gets their QB and a roster that's mostly built and looks like a genius but whatever. At this point I'm so fed up with this team I don't even want to get invested in anything they do.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 09:51:29 AMWhat candidates do you think are a clear cut upgrade based on who is realistically available as an option for the Giants?
An upgrade from 5-12 and 3-13? Not hard to go up from there.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:53:03 AMIn all fairness, the reason the Giants couldn't afford Barkley is that the team needed to waste money on veteran O-linemen because Schoen and Daboll were terrible at drafting and developing O-line talent. Had they been even mediocre, they would have had the funds to keep Barkley
Of course they could have also just NOT paid Jones when it was clear to just about everybody he's awful. That too would have cleared out plenty of money for Barkley. However I don't think Barkley was coming back unless they damn near doubled the Philly offer. He wanted out and I don't blame him. At this point I want out too.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:49:23 AMHow did you determine this is a "weak HC/GM pool"?
I don't know much about GMs, but there are actually some very viable good HC candidates out there.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 09:51:29 AMWhat candidates do you think are a clear cut upgrade based on who is realistically available as an option for the Giants?
GM is difficult to say because, as fans outside of education and experience, there is little to go on.
As far as head coaches, there are new ones, which we can't say would be better or worse (unless they were willing to interview with us). In terms of veteran coaches, Vrabel has a superior track record to Daboll. Even Arthur Smith, Brian Flores, and Kliff Kingsbury have better records than Daboll.
Outside of Vrabrel and the complicated Brian Flores, there are upgrades but not proven slam dunks. As for the new ones, much like QB prospects one or two will likely be hits while the others tank.
GREAT NEWS
I should be able to shoot in the low 80's by this coming fall.
Fore !!!
RIP Giants football.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:51:02 AMMy view of the Giants definition of insanity is Mara changing out HC/GM every three years while keeping his thumb in the pie.
He needs to learn that you can't have it both ways.
STOP publicly advocating for a QB who will never be worth what you invested in him. STOP whining on a cable tv show about how you won't sleep at night if your most popular player, a RB ends up playing for a rival.
Your advocating for the QB made it impossible to invest in the RB based on the cap AND lack of talent along the OL. Had they acquiesced to your whining, your RB would have missed at least three games due to injury and would have produced a little offer half of what he's producing now in a best case scenario.
Your coveted QB would look a a little better due to having a great outlet RB to catch his popgun passes and STILL not solve his inability to consistently throw the ball down field. You know, like today's NFL QB's do these days.
I LOVE Barkley and I wanted to keep him. But two things remain true. One, he's in a much better place. Two, he would've had another wasted year here and we would still be in QB HELL.
John, if you're not able to identify the correct HC/GM combination hire a consultant or Better yet, a President of Football Operations to choose them, and then for the millionth time GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS!!
I honestly don't know if Schoen/Daboll are the right men for the job, because I haven't seen them run the operation without interference. So I am not invested one way or another whether they stay or go, other than I'm getting a little old to witness them starting from scratch YET AGAIN!
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ALL. OF. THIS.
=D> =D> =D>
Quote from: Gmo11 on January 02, 2025, 09:55:47 AMSo assuming they win this week which seems all but assured due to the team's aggressive lack of intelligence, I'm not sure they even CAN get into position to get a QB anymore. So maybe the plan is to let these guys suck next year since whoever they bring in isn't going to be able to win without a QB regardless and then fire them after next season.
Of course then whoever comes in next gets their QB and a roster that's mostly built and looks like a genius but whatever. At this point I'm so fed up with this team I don't even want to get invested in anything they do.
I have resigned myself to the reality that I am a fan of a team that will be bad to mediocre for the foreseeable future.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 10:01:46 AMALL. OF. THIS.
=D> =D> =D>
All true if he had the right GM and HC but remember it starts with Mara. He makes the pick of GM. That's why they have to change constantly. His picks are dreadful.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:53:03 AMIn all fairness, the reason the Giants couldn't afford Barkley is that the team needed to waste money on veteran O-linemen because Schoen and Daboll were terrible at drafting and developing O-line talent. Had they been even mediocre, they would have had the funds to keep Barkley
True. It's also true that despite all that spending the OL is still in bad shape and depends on a healthy Andrew Thomas to be even respectable.
Maybe the calculus is that Schoen and Daboll give them the best chance to be bad in 2025 and get a higher draft pick. As ridiculous as that sounds, it makes more sense than any of the goofy reasons people have been giving for keeping those two.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 02, 2025, 10:12:10 AMTrue. It's also true that despite all that spending the OL is still in bad shape and depends on a healthy Andrew Thomas to be even respectable.
Maybe the calculus is that Schoen and Daboll give them the best chance to be bad in 2025 and get a higher draft pick. As ridiculous as that sounds, it makes more sense than any of the goofy reasons people have been giving for keeping those two.
The only problem with that theory is that no matter how bad the team or how terrible the season is, the team will find a way to ruin its draft position. :D
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 10:11:31 AMAll true if he had the right GM and HC but remember it starts with Mara. He makes the pick of GM. That's why they have to change constantly. His picks are dreadful.
I think his picks are a mixed bag. I think his meddling is more of an issue than his picks. If they aren't allowed to do their jobs without his interference, we'll never know what they can really do. Mara is the puppet master. Until those strings are cut (by himself or Schoen), not much will change.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on January 02, 2025, 10:12:10 AMTrue. It's also true that despite all that spending the OL is still in bad shape and depends on a healthy Andrew Thomas to be even respectable.
Maybe the calculus is that Schoen and Daboll give them the best chance to be bad in 2025 and get a higher draft pick. As ridiculous as that sounds, it makes more sense than any of the goofy reasons people have been giving for keeping those two.
Mara is too stupid to be that cunning.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 10:13:44 AMThe only problem with that theory is that no matter how bad the team or how terrible the season is, the team will find a way to ruin its draft position. :D
That seems to be the case. Like clockwork.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 10:14:06 AMI think his picks are a mixed bag. I think his meddling is more of an issue than his picks. If they aren't allowed to do their jobs without his interference, we'll never know what they can really do. Mara is the puppet master. Until those strings are cut (by himself or Schoen), not much will change.
So he meddled with Gettleman too? That's why Gettleman sucked?
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 10:16:31 AMSo he meddled with Gettleman too? That's why Gettleman sucked?
I would imagine so. It's what Mara does. I think he did it less with Gettleman because they were on the same page, as far as I'm concerned. Gettleman told Mara what he wanted to hear and did what he thought Mara wanted him to do.
We've seen Schoen go against what Mara wanted. To me, he's been laying the foundation to essentially tune Mara out when it comes to running the football operations and building the roster.
Kat,
I see where you're going so I'll attempt an answer.
We all know for a fact that he advocated for Jones and then whined over Barkleys popularity, which in Barkleys case BTW stunk of ticket and merch sales more so than W-L, because Mara did it publicly.
He didn't go public with Gettleman, I can only guess that perhaps DG presented himself as the high experienced, man of football wisdom.
Schoen and Daboll maybe perceived as youngsters he could control or at minimum influence.
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Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 08:39:40 AMGreat News
Why is that ," Great news " ? Have you seen the record this year ? Did you remember that the GM gave Jones $40 million dollars and then dropped him this year . Did you remember he let Sequon Barkly leave for the Eagles ? Did you remember that his 2022 and 2023 drafts have produced not one pro bowl player and his first three first round picks are average at best and maybe a bust for one ?
I am not even going to go into Daboll who ;looks like another participant in the Bill Arnsbargere syndrome , a good assistant coach but a terrible head coach.
And you say ," good News " !!!
" Good News ", would be on Monday we read that both Schoen and Daboll have been released from their positions !!!
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 02, 2025, 10:31:07 AMWhy is that ," Great news " ? Have you seen the record this year ? Did you remember that the GM gave Jones $40 million dollars and then dropped him this year . Did you remember he let Sequon Barkly leave for the Eagles ? Did you remember that his 2022 and 2023 drafts have produced not one pro bowl player and his first three first round picks are average at best and maybe a bust for one ?
I am not even going to go into Daboll who ;looks like another participant in the Bill Arnsbargere syndrome , a good assistant coach but a terrible head coach.
And you say ," good News " !!!
" Good News ", would be on Monday we read that both Schoen and Daboll have been released from their positions !!!
You have your opinion, I disagree with it, to each their own.
I can ask if you saw the many things I have seen the other way, but we have all done this ad nauseum, I don't have the energy to play this agenda tug of war anymore.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 10:20:52 AMI would imagine so. It's what Mara does. I think he did it less with Gettleman because they were on the same page, as far as I'm concerned. Gettleman told Mara what he wanted to hear and did what he thought Mara wanted him to do.
We've seen Schoen go against what Mara wanted. To me, he's been laying the foundation to essentially tune Mara out when it comes to running the football operations and building the roster.
To me, if you are correct, then why the contract to Jones? He didn't stand up to Mara's meddling in the biggest decision of his early tenure. And that has almost cost him his job. But does Mara meddle in the draft picks that have been C minus at best?
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 09:51:29 AMWhat candidates do you think are a clear cut upgrade based on who is realistically available as an option for the Giants?
I am not familiar with potential GM candidates but all I know is that the Commanders found theirs .
There must be people working under the GMS of THe Lions, Vikings, Packers , Chiefs who would be available.
I think that maybe Brandon Brown might be a better choice than Schoen . An AP writer that I am friendly with said that Brown was very instumental in this past year's draft but had little input in 2023 draft.
Maybe hire a President of Football Operations to head up the team like Dawn Aponte who is Chief Of Football Oerations for the NFL.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:05:39 AMIf we used this approach, the Giants never would have had two more Super Bowl trophies. They could have argued that replacing Fassel would be doing the same thing (cycling through coaches) as after Parcells; they went through Handley, Reeves, and then Fassel. They fired Fassel and finally got it right, hiring Tom Coughlin.
More importantly, neither Daboll nor Schoen had demonstrated an aptitude for their jobs.
Daboll's players may love him, but it seems that's more due to Daboll not holding them accountable which leads to mental errors, dropped passes, and needless penalties. Daboll's ability to assemble and manage a coaching staff is among the worst in the league. Daboll's game management is mediocre, at best. He might flash as an offensive play caller/designer, but there is far more than that in terms of being a good head coach.
As for Schoen, he has two terrible drafts and one good draft. He has allowed the team to bleed more talent than they acquired. On Hard Knocks the consensus is that he came off as clueless about building a quality football team, and the results support that conclusion.
There are no reasons to believe the team that has made the team worse in each of the last two seasons will suddenly see the light and turn things around.
Fasell was the coach for 7 years. Reeves for 4. People were ready to run Coughlin out of town after the 2nd year.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:06:28 AMI fear they will trade away that team's draft future on a mediocre QB in a Hail Mary play to save their jobs
And, if they don't give up the farm to move up will you find something else to complain about?
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 10:36:42 AMTo me, if you are correct, then why the contract to Jones? He didn't stand up to Mara's meddling in the biggest decision of his early tenure. And that has almost cost him his job. But does Mara meddle in the draft picks that have been C minus at best?
I think that was a compromise. He could have saddled this team with Jones for 4 years if he really believed in the guy. Mara probably wouldn't sign off on getting rid of him after a playoff season especially when he looked so good vs the Vikings pitiful defense in that playoff game. But Schoen knew this was a mistake so he compromised by structuring the deal in a way that they could (and likely would) be out after 2 years.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 10:05:31 AMI have resigned myself to the reality that I am a fan of a team that will be bad to mediocre for the foreseeable future.
cool
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 08:39:40 AMGreat News
This is "Great News" for Philadelphia, Dallas and Washington.
Quote from: coggs on January 02, 2025, 10:38:08 AMFasell was the coach for 7 years. Reeves for 4. People were ready to run Coughlin out of town after the 2nd year.
And, if they don't give up the farm to move up will you find something else to complain about?
Staying the course ended up being a very wise decision too
Quote from: Giantleap56 on January 02, 2025, 10:41:03 AMThis is "Great News" for Philadelphia, Dallas and Washington.
The Giants will be bad again next year regardless of who is coach and GM. But all this does is postpone the changes for another year. Unless they find a Jayden Daniels or Stroud who can totally turn it around next year, and they won't in this year's draft, nor will a bridge like Darnold, Fields or someone else be significant enough to garner many wins, they will be bottom dwellers once more. All those tough home games next year will be full with opposing team fans. Mara's gonna love that.
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 10:36:42 AMTo me, if you are correct, then why the contract to Jones? He didn't stand up to Mara's meddling in the biggest decision of his early tenure. And that has almost cost him his job. But does Mara meddle in the draft picks that have been C minus at best?
Q: Why the contract to Jones?
A: They just won their first playoff game since their last SB in 2012. Ten years. If you were in Schoen's position (firs time rookie GM), what would you tell your boss, who has publicly supported Jones and lamented all they have done to ruin the kid, that would convince him to dump Jones?
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 10:47:28 AMQ: Why the contract to Jones?
A: They just won their first playoff game since their last SB in 2012. Ten years. If you were in Schoen's position (firs time rookie GM), what would you tell your boss, who has publicly supported Jones and lamented all they have done to ruin the kid, that would convince him to dump Jones?
I'd tell him I think it's a mistake to sign him. They won because of the running back and circumstance. We are happy with the season we had, but we are not fooled that the team still needs much work for it's long term success. My coach, who we hired because he knows QB play, says he needs a QB he can really develop. We just don't see that in Jones despite the good game managing year he had. We like the kid, but it's not the right move for the long term future of the team. You hired me to make these tough evaluations and decisions. This is mine. If we are going to work together in the future you have to trust me on all the player personnel decisions.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 10:35:36 AMYou have your opinion, I disagree with it, to each their own.
I can ask if you saw the many things I have seen the other way, but we have all done this ad nauseum, I don't have the energy to play this agenda tug of war anymore.
I understand, you are not totally in the minority as there are others who agree with you . I just really wanted to know why you thought it was ," Great News " that there is a possibility that Schoen and Daboll might be retained .
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 10:47:28 AMQ: Why the contract to Jones?
A: They just won their first playoff game since their last SB in 2012. Ten years. If you were in Schoen's position (firs time rookie GM), what would you tell your boss, who has publicly supported Jones and lamented all they have done to ruin the kid, that would convince him to dump Jones?
Seriously. Some of these people are acting like what we saw out of Jones in 2022 was what we saw this year. When Schoen first got here he decided to not exercise the 5th year option. Immediately everyone said they will be screwed if he has a good year this year (2022) and he has to pay him more for 2023. The cap for 2023 was a mess so they could not franchise him. We knew as soon as the contract was signed, well those of us who understand Math knew, it was a 2 year deal with 2 one year options based on how the deal was structured. Last year, the OLine was historically bad and there was not a QB in the league that would have been successful here. This year, Jones was historically bad and they let him go. They werent picking high enough in 2023 to draft a QB. The FA's avaialble at the time would have been seen as a downgrade from what we saw out of Jones in 2022 and there was no guarantee any of them would have signed here. Could anyone imagine the backlash if they gave Baker Mayfield a 4 year deal for even half the money they gave Jones? Cut all the money in Jones deal in half, guaranteed and non-guaranteed money. Keep the 4 years and almost everyone on here and in giants internet land would have been going apeshit. And, not in a good way,
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 02, 2025, 10:52:59 AMI understand, you are not totally in the minority as there are others who agree with you . I just really wanted to know why you thought it was ," Great News " that there is a possibility that Schoen and Daboll might be retained .
In short, I think they have been severely handicapped by Daniel Jones, in more ways than one. I think Dabolls playcalling and some of the other skill players on this team are better than their stats because of who has been throwing to them. I also think the team has been hurt by injuries yet again, and should seriously consider letting Barnes retire and revamping that medical staff from the top down and then some. This is a serious problem the organization has with injuries.
They still have work to do, but if we can give Jones 6 years, we can give them a 4th.
I also feel like Schoen's first draft gets too much flak, considering his limited time and not having his people fully in place yet. Despite that, that draft was a portion of a team that made the playoffs.
A QB won't fix everything, but if they hit, then having one will make them a lot more respectable and will lessen other needs. The game from IND is a sample of some of what we can see more regularly with having competent QB play more consistently. They still need a RG, Swing, DT and CB, and overall depth. A lot of that can be addressed in an offseason with acquisitions in FA/Draft and players getting healthy.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 11:03:39 AMIn short, I think they have been severely handicapped by Daniel Jones, in more ways than one. I think Dabolls playcalling and some of the other skill players on this team are better than their stats because of who has been throwing to them. I also think the team has been hurt by injuries yet again, and should seriously consider letting Barnes retire and revamping that medical staff from the top down and then some. This is a serious problem the organization has with injuries.
They still have work to do, but if we can give Jones 6 years, we can give them a 4th.
I also feel like Schoen's first draft gets too much flak, considering his limited time and not having his people fully in place yet. Despite that, that draft was a portion of a team that made the playoffs.
A QB won't fix everything, but if they hit, then having one will make them a lot more respectable and will lessen other needs. The game from IND is a sample of some of what we can see more regularly with having competent QB play more consistently. They still need a RG, Swing, DT and CB, and overall depth. A lot of that can be addressed in an offseason with acquisitions in FA/Draft and players getting healthy.
Agreed. Jones literally could not complete passes more than 15 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. That is unheard of in the NFL. How many times did we see plays on film breakdowns where the receivers WERE open and he just would not throw the ball? We had Nabers saying how he was open on plays and he wouldnt throw it. Then, a few weeks later he stepped back saying it was not the QB. The hell it wasnt the QB. It 100% was. Then, we had some on here saying that because Lock and DeVito were worse that somehow exonerated Jones as the problem. Nonsense. Oh, Vikings picked him up for their practice squad. That must mean he is good. Yeah, ok.
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 10:52:26 AMI'd tell him I think it's a mistake to sign him. They won because of the running back and circumstance. We are happy with the season we had, but we are not fooled that the team still needs much work for it's long term success. My coach, who we hired because he knows QB play, says he needs a QB he can really develop. We just don't see that in Jones despite the good game managing year he had. We like the kid, but it's not the right move for the long term future of the team. You hired me to make these tough evaluations and decisions. This is mine. If we are going to work together in the future you have to trust me on all the player personnel decisions.
=D> =D> =D>
I like that.
If I'm Mara, my response would be something like this:
Daniel and Saquon proved to be a formidable offensive duo. Daniel ran the offense without having a true #1 receiver or a tight end threat. I'm certain that if he has better receiving weapons, he will continue to improve in Brian's offense. He threw for 300 yards in a playoff game on the road! That's a huge accomplishment that shouldn't be ignored. If he had better offensive weapons, we could have put up a better fight against Philly. He has the right coach; he just needs better receivers. I really believe in this kid and he rewarded my support with the first playoff win in 10 years. He clearly has something that we can win with.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 02, 2025, 10:37:22 AMI am not familiar with potential GM candidates but all I know is that the Commanders found theirs .
There must be people working under the GMS of THe Lions, Vikings, Packers , Chiefs who would be available.
I think that maybe Brandon Brown might be a better choice than Schoen . An AP writer that I am friendly with said that Brown was very instumental in this past year's draft but had little input in 2023 draft.
Maybe hire a President of Football Operations to head up the team like Dawn Aponte who is Chief Of Football Oerations for the NFL.
The Commanders seem to be part of a trend where the less sexy picks tend to prove to be the better ones.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:51:02 AMMy view of the Giants definition of insanity is Mara changing out HC/GM every three years while keeping his thumb in the pie.
He needs to learn that you can't have it both ways.
STOP publicly advocating for a QB who will never be worth what you invested in him. STOP whining on a cable tv show about how you won't sleep at night if your most popular player, a RB ends up playing for a rival.
Your advocating for the QB made it impossible to invest in the RB based on the cap AND lack of talent along the OL. Had they acquiesced to your whining, your RB would have missed at least three games due to injury and would have produced a little offer half of what he's producing now in a best case scenario.
Your coveted QB would look a a little better due to having a great outlet RB to catch his popgun passes and STILL not solve his inability to consistently throw the ball down field. You know, like today's NFL QB's do these days.
I LOVE Barkley and I wanted to keep him. But two things remain true. One, he's in a much better place. Two, he would've had another wasted year here and we would still be in QB HELL.
John, if you're not able to identify the correct HC/GM combination hire a consultant or Better yet, a President of Football Operations to choose them, and then for the millionth time GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY AND LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS!!
I honestly don't know if Schoen/Daboll are the right men for the job, because I haven't seen them run the operation without interference. So I am not invested one way or another whether they stay or go, other than I'm getting a little old to witness them starting from scratch YET AGAIN!
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Very well said Andrew. 👏👏👏👏👏
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 11:11:58 AM=D> =D> =D>
I like that.
If I'm Mara, my response would be something like this:
Daniel and Saquon proved to be a formidable offensive duo. Daniel ran the offense without having a true #1 receiver or a tight end threat. I'm certain that if he has better receiving weapons, he will continue to improve in Brian's offense. He threw for 300 yards in a playoff game on the road! That's a huge accomplishment that shouldn't be ignored. If he had better offensive weapons, we could have put up a better fight against Philly. He has the right coach; he just needs better receivers. I really believe in this kid and he rewarded my support with the first playoff win in 10 years. He clearly has something that we can win with.
And I respectfully disagree. My coach who studies QB play sees a hard ceiling for the kid, not to mention he is injury prone. I was taught not to base decisions on performances over one game. I look for consistency and improvement over a sustained period not one game.
Quote from: katkavage on January 02, 2025, 11:33:45 AMAnd I respectfully disagree. My coach who studies QB play sees a hard ceiling for the kid, not to mention he is injury prone. I was taught not to base decisions on performances over one game. I look for consistency and improvement over a sustained period not one game.
Thanks! I appreciate the dialog. There's no way of knowing what happened behind the scenes.
I still support Schoen and Daboll and would like them to be back. Daboll needs to fix his staff and plug holes. Schoen has shown signs of pushing back against Mara.
I'm hopeful that there will be a noticeable improvement next season.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 02, 2025, 10:31:07 AMWhy is that ," Great news " ? Have you seen the record this year ? Did you remember that the GM gave Jones $40 million dollars and then dropped him this year . Did you remember he let Sequon Barkly leave for the Eagles ? Did you remember that his 2022 and 2023 drafts have produced not one pro bowl player and his first three first round picks are average at best and maybe a bust for one ?
I am not even going to go into Daboll who ;looks like another participant in the Bill Arnsbargere syndrome , a good assistant coach but a terrible head coach.
And you say ," good News " !!!
" Good News ", would be on Monday we read that both Schoen and Daboll have been released from their positions !!!
I don't want to sound like a wise guy, but I think you meant the "other Good News" which started with Gibson and ended with both Robustelli and McVay.
Though I'm curious what McVay would have done with the Giants as GM, and if he would have achieved success here as he did under Eddie.
Maras vs. Eddie
Forget it, I think we all know that answer!
Peace!
Quote from: coggs on January 02, 2025, 11:10:07 AMAgreed. Jones literally could not complete passes more than 15 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. That is unheard of in the NFL. How many times did we see plays on film breakdowns where the receivers WERE open and he just would not throw the ball? We had Nabers saying how he was open on plays and he wouldnt throw it. Then, a few weeks later he stepped back saying it was not the QB. The hell it wasnt the QB. It 100% was. Then, we had some on here saying that because Lock and DeVito were worse that somehow exonerated Jones as the problem. Nonsense. Oh, Vikings picked him up for their practice squad. That must mean he is good. Yeah, ok.
It was all an agenda, and a refusal to admit wrong. We all know none of these guys are any good, Lock had a stellar game this weekend, and is a peek into what could be if we find our answer at the position, or someone who at the very least is a substantial upgrade.
Quote from: MrGap92 on January 02, 2025, 12:15:33 PMIt was all an agenda, and a refusal to admit wrong. We all know none of these guys are any good, Lock had a stellar game this weekend, and is a peek into what could be if we find our answer at the position, or someone who at the very least is a substantial upgrade.
Can you show me one post where you admitted you were wrong?
Quote from: coggs on January 02, 2025, 10:38:08 AMFasell was the coach for 7 years. Reeves for 4. People were ready to run Coughlin out of town after the 2nd year.
And, if they don't give up the farm to move up will you find something else to complain about?
If you are happy with this season and the prospects moving forward, that's fine. You be you.
I will, regardless of your efforts to silence me, voice my opinions of the team and its prospects objectively and honestly, be they good or bad.
Quote from: T200 on January 02, 2025, 11:36:56 AMThanks! I appreciate the dialog. There's no way of knowing what happened behind the scenes.
I still support Schoen and Daboll and would like them to be back. Daboll needs to fix his staff and plug holes. Schoen has shown signs of pushing back against Mara.
I'm hopeful that there will be a noticeable improvement next season.
Thank you for your patience and respect with my opinion. With Daboll's track record with his staff it's gonna be a real problem to find quality coaches. Especially as a lame duck. I fear the only improvement next year will be the number of rented planes around the stadium.
Winning cures all.
I don't have any issue with him being a lame duck. Hopefully he finds an OC that he believes in and a QB he wants to work with. If he gets those two key pieces, the offense will be much-improved.
And if he doesn't, then he will be on his way out. I'll be OK with that. All excuses will have been removed from the equation.
So the players support Daboll..oh my, can't believe it. Of course they do; he lets stuff slide all the time. I think Dabs and Schoen are dead men walking..even with a reprieve by the Governor Mara. JS will insist on his QB trade up, I fear, spending draft capital.
The schedule looks brutal for next year, and another 10 loss or more season is due, especially with a rookie QB. Schoen should be fired with Daboll. Btw, what staff hires can we expect I believe with a lame duck coach. Not special, I expect. It's such a mess that Mara should just start over, again, but he is determined to run it back. Yay.
idk how anyone says they let stuff slide like we know what conversations are had behind the scenes, Jones was benched, Daboll has been seen plenty visibly frustrated, etc
Unless one has inside information, there is no evidence to these types of claims. If there is, I'd love to see it.
Now reading that Giants underestimated Barkley's leadership. Jesus friggin Christ that's all I and others here said should be the reason why they pay up to retain him. They lost Sterling Sheppard, another leader. The team, especially the offense, needed SB.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 02, 2025, 01:58:30 PMNow reading that Giants underestimated Barkley's leadership. Jesus friggin Christ that's all I and others here said should be the reason why they pay up to retain him. They lost Sterling Sheppard, another leader. The team, especially the offense, needed SB.
Are you referring to this article, Joe?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/43260627/giants-says-loss-saquon-barkley-locker-room-underestimated
If Schoen could recruit Vrabel I would totally be willing to have renewed faith in him.
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Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 12:25:58 PMIf you are happy with this season and the prospects moving forward, that's fine. You be you.
I will, regardless of your efforts to silence me, voice my opinions of the team and its prospects objectively and honestly, be they good or bad.
Daboll just needs to make them run some extra laps and things will turn around.
Quote from: coggs on January 02, 2025, 08:43:19 PMDaboll just needs to make them run some extra laps and things will turn around.
I think I need to run some extra laps after reading this thread from start to finish!
Whew!
Peace!
That was funny. Camp Daboll...is like summer camp for these Giants..just enough and we're good. Daboll and Schoen have to be kicked out the friggin door. It's over. The schedule next year is brutal..start over..draft the best players availabile. No trading up for a QB...no!!!
My biggest concern and reason for not keeping Daboll...is. The last two seasons opening day after preparing all off season and preseason to get ready ...
Daboll's teams have come out and been completely obliterated by another team....what does that say about a coach any coach?
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Quote from: MightyGiants on January 02, 2025, 09:53:03 AMIn all fairness, the reason the Giants couldn't afford Barkley is that the team needed to waste money on veteran O-linemen because Schoen and Daboll were terrible at drafting and developing O-line talent. Had they been even mediocre, they would have had the funds to keep Barkley
The Giants had $30 million in cap space which was plenty to sign Barkley Rich. Schoen put a top number on the money they were willing to pay Saquon and refused to budge. I don't think the Giants didn't have the money to pay Saquon. Am I wrong here?
I agree with you about both the GM and the coach. Schoen fired his entire scouting department and replaced them with entry level scouts. Most if not all scouting departments have a mix of vets and youth. This department is all youth.
Daboll's offense is so predictable and vanilla. His gameplanning seems adequate but I wonder how much input Kafka and the other offense coaches have. I don't recall one red zone pass into the end zone as he relies so much on YAC. His play calls rarely asked his QB to throw the ball down the field despite DJs excellent PFF ratings on completed throws over 20 yards. Then again, outside of Nabers, the remaining WRs are among the league's worst ... which brings up back to Schoen again!
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Quote from: coggs on January 02, 2025, 11:10:07 AMAgreed. Jones literally could not complete passes more than 15 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. That is unheard of in the NFL. How many times did we see plays on film breakdowns where the receivers WERE open and he just would not throw the ball? We had Nabers saying how he was open on plays and he wouldnt throw it. Then, a few weeks later he stepped back saying it was not the QB. The hell it wasnt the QB. It 100% was. Then, we had some on here saying that because Lock and DeVito were worse that somehow exonerated Jones as the problem. Nonsense. Oh, Vikings picked him up for their practice squad. That must mean he is good. Yeah, ok.
If Jones couldn't complete a pass beyond 15 yards he wouldn't even be in this league. Several years ago, PFF had Jones rated the 5th best pass completion percentage over 20 yards. You also cannot discount that Jones was "locked in" as his coach stated in games 2-4 where everyone here agreed Jones played well. He had no chance against Pittsburgh with 7 sacks, 10 hits and 10 hurries. He bounced back the next game going 20-26 with three drops and an elite 91.5 PFF grade.
As to not seeing open receivers- would suggest you read "Sunday Morning Quarterback " by Phil Simms. He stated that it's easy for the fans to see wide open receivers on your TV. But it's a different world on the field where it's constant mayhem with defenders all over the place. Simms went on to say all QBs miss open receivers.
There were 10-12 teams who recruited Daniel Jones. The Vikings coach said he was ecstatic that Jones chose his team spurning starting job offers from other teams. The "situation " was more important to Jones than starting for a lousy team again like the Giants. The only Roster spot open for the Vikings was their Practice Squad. Your statement that was the only recourse for Jones is not true.
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Quote from: todge on January 04, 2025, 05:43:08 PMThe Giants had $30 million in cap space which was plenty to sign Barkley Rich. Schoen put a top number on the money they were willing to pay Saquon and refused to budge. I don't think the Giants didn't have the money to pay Saquon. Am I wrong here?
I agree with you about both the GM and the coach. Schoen fired his entire scouting department and replaced them with entry level scouts. Most if not all scouting departments have a mix of vets and youth. This department is all youth.
Daboll's offense is so predictable and vanilla. His gameplanning seems adequate but I wonder how much input Kafka and the other offense coaches have. I don't recall one red zone pass into the end zone as he relies so much on YAC. His play calls rarely asked his QB to throw the ball down the field despite DJs excellent PFF ratings on completed throws over 20 yards. Then again, outside of Nabers, the remaining WRs are among the league's worst ... which brings up back to Schoen again!
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Full disclosure, me and Todge have had our fair share of aggressive disagreements and I can tell you for certain, his post is absolutely spot on the money. I couldn't agree more!
Well said Todge
Honestly, the phrase "locked in" - a flippant comment by Daboll does so much heavy lifting.
Congratulations on being "locked in" Daniel for six weeks of the season where you ended up a practice squad.