If all three were available at number 3 who would your choice be . Rank them in order of your prefetrence.
Thank You
Carter may go number one.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 09, 2025, 10:29:40 PMCarter may go number one.
The Titans would be mocked ruthlessly all summer and thereafter if they took Carter over Travis Hunter.
Johnson, Carter, Graham
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2025, 10:35:27 PMThe Titans would be mocked ruthlessly all summer and thereafter if they took Carter over Travis Hunter.
Actually they really need the QB but I think they trade out.
I cant rank them but keep one thing in mind. Ohio State has destroyed its CFP opponents because they were very successful running up the middle to leave short 3rd downs which allowed their passing to be so successful. Against Michigan they had no ability to run up the middle which gave them long 3rd and longs and made their offense one dimensional. That's largely due to Mason Graham and Kenneth Grant. Graham had five solo tackles and two assisted tackles. How many DTs today get 7 tackles in a game?
Carter I think Carter is a better pure pass rusher than Parsons coming out of college.
Johnson- I like Johnson but think you could get a small step below him in the top of the 2nd with Amos or the East Carolina kid.
Graham- I'm not as high on him as some, if I'm drafting interior dline in the top 5 he better be Lawrence, or Donald and I don't think he is that. I also think you could find his equivalent or right below that at the top of the 2nd.
I like the versatility of Carter. Two years off ball. He could be used so many ways.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 09, 2025, 11:09:29 PMI like the versatility of Carter. Two years off ball. He could be used so many ways.
I am not on board yet with the Carter comparisons to Micah Parsons. The latter plays with an uncontrollable rage and at 100% to the whistle. I have not seen that with Carter. There is no doubting Carter's physicals but I am not convinced he plays nearly as hard as Parsons. Both have great instincts on plays and where to be. One difference I see is Parsons wants to be on every hit of an opposing player. I have seen multiple instances of Carter giving chase then if he sees a teammate in position to make a play he seems to let up and slowndown. All I keep thinking of with him is Chase Young type player and not a Bosa type player. I could be wrong and frankly hope I am.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 10, 2025, 06:41:00 AMI am not on board yet with the Carter comparisons to Micah Parsons. The latter plays with an uncontrollable rage and at 100% to the whistle. I have not seen that with Carter. There is no doubting Carter's physicals but I am not convinced he plays nearly as hard as Parsons. Both have great instincts on plays and where to be. One difference I see is Parsons wants to be on every hit of an opposing player. I have seen multiple instances of Carter giving chase then if he sees a teammate in position to make a play he seems to let up and slowndown. All I keep thinking of with him is Chase Young type player and not a Bosa type player. I could be wrong and frankly hope I am.
I don't think he's all around at Parsons level yet, I was just saying from a pure pass rushing standpoint that he has a better pass rush skill set than Parsons did coming out of college.
I don't like the comparison of Carter to Parsons because Parsons took the NFL by storm. That's not something anyone should expect of any prospect IMO.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 10, 2025, 07:22:35 AMI don't think he's all around at Parsons level yet, I was just saying from a pure pass rushing standpoint that he has a better pass rush skill set than Parsons did coming out of college.
I see Carter in college now more like Thibs than Parsons in terms of using speed and quickness instead of strength, leverage and tenacity. Carter seems to only want to go around blockers. Parsons being smaller wants to go through them and also around them. Parsons has a very aggressive mindset. I have not seen that in Carter. Again more like Chase Young.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 10, 2025, 08:08:17 AMI see Carter in college now more like Thibs than Parsons in terms of using speed and quickness instead of strength, leverage and tenacity. Carter seems to only want to go around blockers. Parsons being smaller wants to go through them and also around them. Parsons has a very aggressive mindset. I have not seen that in Carter. Again more like Chase Young.
Parsons was a wrestler and that comes with a different mindset, guys simply tougher than the rest.
Neither Thibs nor Chase Young have the bend to rush the passer like Carter. Further both seemed to take some plays off in college, Carter plays every down with tenacity.
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 10, 2025, 08:24:08 AMNeither Thibs nor Chase Young have the bend to rush the passer like Carter. Further both seemed to take some plays off in college, Carter plays every down with tenacity.
I agree with you that Carter has elite bend. Great to watch. I don't see the tenacity you see. I see a motoring down on plays.
Johnson, Graham then Carter for me. Giants would benefit most from a lockdown corner, then a mauler on the Dline and lastly another pass rusher. I put Carter last because the Giants already have Thibs and Burns.
I would take them in the order they are listed in the subject. I'd rather get one of those guys, and then someone like Deone Walker in Round 2
A dear frien of mine who is a big supporter of Michigan football, ( he has pledged $2 million dollars to the Michigan football program and has become good friends with Jim Harbaugh) says that Mason Graham has been compared favorably with Aiden Hutchinson, the same kind of motor and how he plays hard on every play, and never gives up.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2025, 10:35:27 PMThe Titans would be mocked ruthlessly all summer and thereafter if they took Carter over Travis Hunter.
I doubt that the Titans will go into next year with Will Levis and Mason Rudolph as their QBS . The pundits are saying that Cam Ward will be their choice unless of course some team ( The Raiders) offers them a haul to move up .
I would prefer the Giants sign DJ Reed in FA and draft Graham
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 10, 2025, 10:00:10 AMA dear frien of mine who is a big supporter of Michigan football, ( he has pledged $2 million dollars to the Michigan football program and has become good friends with Jim Harbaugh) says that Mason Graham has been compared favorably with Aiden Hutchinson, the same kind of motor and how he plays hard on every play, and never gives up.
Other than their size and Hutchinson's speed as a 40 pounds less player, they are almost exactly the same player in terms of extreme aggression and tenacity . As a former wrestler, Graham plays naturally with leverage whereas Hutchinson learned it in college and utilizes it in a similar fashion. Both are extremely quick for their size and use that initial burst with leverage really well. Hutchinson is a natural Edge who plays a lot of DT for the Lions because of his strength and quickness whereas at 320 pounds, Graham is more of a pure DT.
I like Carter, he would be my choice at 3. Giants are built around defense and should always be. The glory days of Giants has always been a good pass rush and defense a wave of good pass rushers. With Dex and Burns, KT and Ojulari (resigned) Carter would be an amazing addition. It would be like Strahan, Osi, Kiwinuka, Tuck.
Creating wave of players that would make the team relentless.
Quote from: Brooklyn Dave on January 09, 2025, 10:17:21 PMIf all three were available at number 3 who would your choice be . Rank them in order of your prefetrence.
B-Dave: I'm guessing we are to assume that Travis Hunter is already gone. If not, I pick Hunter.
First would be Mason Graham (the "boring" pick). The Giants need that type of foundational help on defense, and he's a classic and super player. I see him doing for us what Aiden Hutchinson did for the Lions, but at a different position. Next to Dexter even the Eagles' OL would be in trouble. The Lions are so unlucky to have lost Hutch to injury this year, although some say he could be ready if they reach the Super Bowl).
Second would be Abdul Carter, an entirely different player at virtually the same position. Would be a Swiss Army knife who could be used, IMO, at three or four different positions depending on who's the defensive coordinator.
Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2025, 10:35:27 PMThe Titans would be mocked ruthlessly all summer and thereafter if they took Carter over Travis Hunter.
I like Carter as a prospect more than Hunter. This reminds me of the 2006 draft, where Hou was mocked for taking Mario Williams over Reggie Bush. The latter was a 3x All-Pro and accumulated 97.5 sacks. It turned out to be the correct pick.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 14, 2025, 11:22:13 AMI like Carter as a prospect more than Hunter. This reminds me of the 2006 draft, where Hou was mocked for taking Mario Williams over Reggie Bush. The latter was a 3x All-Pro and accumulated 97.5 sacks. It turned out to be the correct pick.
king: I don't know. The thing about Hunter is that it could almost be like getting one-and-one-half blue chip players, and I know a lot about Carter (could exceed Parsons' results in the right defense) but there's no way Carter can be worth the potential value of Hunter. This is so because I consider corner back to be the most valuable individual defensive position in today's NFL. With two shut-down corners you can do so much more on defense (I'm not saying defensive line isn't the most important "segment" of a defense, because it is and it always will be). Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 14, 2025, 11:39:12 AMking: I don't know. The thing about Hunter is that it could almost be like getting one-and-one-half blue chip players, and I know a lot about Carter (could exceed Parsons' results in the right defense) but there's no way Carter can be worth the potential value of Hunter. This is so because I consider corner back to be the most valuable individual defensive position in today's NFL. With two shut-down corners you can do so much more on defense (I'm not saying defensive line isn't the most important "segment" of a defense, because it is and it always will be). Bob
Bob, I half agree with you; to me, a premium pass-rusher is worth more than a CB. Consider the hightest paid CB vs DE:
1. Jalen Ramsey, Miami Dolphins: $24.1 million (3 years, $72.1 million)
2. Pat Surtain II, Denver Broncos: $24 million (4 years, $96 million)
3. Jaire Alexander, Green Bay Packers: $21 million (4 years, $84 million)
1. Nick Bosa, San Francisco 49ers: $34 million (5 years, $170 million)
2. Joshua Hines-Allen, Jacksonville Jaguars: $28.3 million (5 years, $141.3 million)
3. Brian Burns, New York Giants: $28.2 million (5 years, $141 million)
It's really not close to which position the NFL values more; still, your point about Hunter's ability to play multiple positions is a fair, and good point. If the Giants draft him, I'd prefer they use him at CB and KR.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 14, 2025, 11:47:27 AMBob, I half agree with you; to me, a premium pass-rusher is worth more than a CB.
king: I'm well aware that I'm in the minority on my view that CB's are the most important.
The foundation of my view is a firm belief that QB pressure is FAR more important than sacks.
If I'm wrong about it, all of my thinking on defense is wrong, because it's all based on that premise. I don't claim to know much about defense, by the way. I don't pay as much attention to it as I do to offense and other aspects of the game. But I'm standing pat because I see it every day. As a matter of fact, I'm one of those who doesn't put as much stock in the "big play" theory of pro football. I think over the long season there are lot more "small plays" that win games than big ones. If you have enough small ones you don't need any big ones, IMO.
Bob
PS. Playoffs are an entirely different story. All of the above relates solely to the regular season. I may have different "takes" on one or two aspects of the game during playoffs, but if you can't get to the playoffs, none of them matter so I don't spend a lot of time thinking too long about them.
Out of those 3.............Abdul Carter
Do people expect Graham to be as good as Aaron Donald or something along those lines?
Without a strong feel like that I probably wouldn't select a defensive interior player with pick 3 on a team that had the worst offense in the league.
I've watched more tape and change my thoughts on player rankings.
Johnson
Carter
Hunter
Graham
My gut tells me that Johnson, Carter, Graham and Hunter are very unlikely to experience anything detrimental between now and the Draft to fall. The worst thing that may happen is that maybe Hunter runs a 4.5x 40. None of these guys are immature prospects. Character wise, I think they are all mature, hungry, coachable young men. The only way someone (non-QB) jettisons above them is if they are already a top 10 prospect who does some out of this world physical test, but I even doubt that happens.
I want a CB
But if we were to sign one via Free Agency I think adding Graham would make this defense crazy good and well balanced
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 14, 2025, 02:03:25 PMI've watched more tape and change my thoughts on player rankings.
Johnson
Carter
Hunter
Graham
J: What put you "off" about Graham? Bob
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on January 09, 2025, 10:35:27 PMThe Titans would be mocked ruthlessly all summer and thereafter if they took Carter over Travis Hunter.
Just like Texan fans were mercilessly mocked when they took Mario Williams over Reggie Bush? Much like Williams over Bush was the right call, Carter is is the right pick over Hunter.
Quote from: madbadger on January 18, 2025, 01:22:02 PMJust like Texan fans were mercilessly mocked when they took Mario Williams over Reggie Bush? Much like Williams over Bush was the right call, Carter is is the right pick over Hunter.
Perhaps he is, perhaps he isn't. You are making it seem like you know this for absolute certain.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 18, 2025, 11:48:27 AMJ: What put you "off" about Graham? Bob
It's the value for me Bob, if the guy isn't the next Aaron Donald then the value just isn't there. A top 5 pick needs to be at a premium position so we hopefully get elite play at a discount.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 18, 2025, 02:17:49 PMIt's the value for me Bob, if the guy isn't the next Aaron Donald then the value just isn't there. A top 5 pick needs to be at a premium position so we hopefully get elite play at a discount.
J: Can't say I disagree.
As I said in other topics, it's also a boring pick, given the other prospects who are available.
Which is why I believe he will be high on the Giants' list. lol
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 18, 2025, 02:42:22 PMJ: Can't say I disagree.
As I said in other topics, it's also a boring pick, given the other prospects who are available.
Which is why I believe he will be high on the Giants' list. lol
Bob
I dont see DT as not a premium position. If we draft someone who changes our rush D to where we are holding offenses to under 4.0 ypc and are generating interior pass pressure, then we just tipped the balance in favor of the D.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 18, 2025, 04:48:14 PMI dont see DT as not a premium position. If we draft someone who changes our rush D to where we are holding offenses to under 4.0 ypc and are generating interior pass pressure, then we just tipped the balance in favor of the D.
Phil: That's my line of thinking, too. We somehow stunk defending against the run despite Dexter Lawrence and IMO a solid job by Thibodeaux. Putting Mason Graham into the DL along with those two guys would, again IMO, do more for the team than adding Abdul Carter, although I won't be unhappy if we take either one. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 19, 2025, 11:15:19 AMPhil: That's my line of thinking, too. We somehow stunk defending against the run despite Dexter Lawrence and IMO a solid job by Thibodeaux. Putting Mason Graham into the DL along with those two guys would, again IMO, do more for the team than adding Abdul Carter, although I won't be unhappy if we take either one. Bob
a run stuffing DT is cheap though, if we were to trade for good one it'd likely cost us a 5th rd pick, not number 3 overall where the value conversation comes back in.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2025, 12:00:26 PMa run stuffing DT is cheap though, if we were to trade for good one it'd likely cost us a 5th rd pick, not number 3 overall where the value conversation comes back in.
J: The difference between you and me regarding Graham is that I don't see him as just a run-stopper, although he is very good at that. I see him more like Hutchinson of the Lions, and I think (but am not certain) he can be that good. BOb
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 19, 2025, 12:02:56 PMJ: The difference between you and me regarding Graham is that I don't see him as just a run-stopper, although he is very good at that. I see him more like Hutchinson of the Lions, and I think (but am not certain) he can be that good. BOb
I can see that but from a stats perspective he averaged 30 tackles, 6 tfls, and 3 sacks per season at Michigan and that production, no matter what we think he can become doesn't justify #3 overall if the likes of Carter, Hunter, and Johnson are sitting there imo.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 19, 2025, 12:02:56 PMJ: The difference between you and me regarding Graham is that I don't see him as just a run-stopper, although he is very good at that. I see him more like Hutchinson of the Lions, and I think (but am not certain) he can be that good. BOb
Yes, and pairing him with Dex would create enormous challenges for opposing offenses.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2025, 12:20:19 PMI can see that but from a stats perspective he averaged 30 tackles, 6 tfls, and 3 sacks per season at Michigan and that production, no matter what we think he can become doesn't justify #3 overall if the likes of Carter, Hunter, and Johnson are sitting there imo.
You cant just look at stats. If he commands a double team or frees up Okereke, he won.
We had guys on the cheap at DT and it didnt work.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 19, 2025, 03:28:30 PMWe had guys on the cheap at DT and it didnt work.
... or, famously, we traded them to other teams (usually the Vikings) or outright released them for no compensation. I seem to remember one guy even would up with the Eagles, although I think whoever he was is long gone. Bob
The top 10 paid interior DL all have contracts at $90 million or above. Good ones are not cheap. Remember Leonard Williams' contract.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 19, 2025, 03:28:30 PMYou cant just look at stats. If he commands a double team or frees up Okereke, he won.
We had guys on the cheap at DT and it didnt work.
That has more value than a true #1 lockdown corner to you?
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2025, 05:54:13 PMThat has more value than a true #1 lockdown corner to you?
It depends... If you have someone who is pretty damn good next to Dex.... It will make our pass rushing the main focus of every teams game planning.... If Graham is what he is being made out to be how do you block that ? If you double anyone of Dex, Graham, Burns or Thibs you have three other options to worry about
Having a beast D-line makes Thibs "Clean Up" sacks much more crucial and important
Okereke and McFadden ain't too shabby either
I would love a shutdown corner
But if we can sign the 2025 version of Corey Webster and add Graham ... I would choose that option
Quote from: killarich on January 19, 2025, 08:39:25 PMIt depends... If you have someone who is pretty damn good next to Dex.... It will make our pass rushing the main focus of every teams game planning.... If Graham is what he is being made out to be how do you block that ? If you double anyone of Dex, Graham, Burns or Thibs you have three other options to worry about
Having a beast D-line makes Thibs "Clean Up" sacks much more crucial and important
Okereke and McFadden ain't too shabby either
I would love a shutdown corner
But if we can sign the 2025 version of Corey Webster and add Graham ... I would choose that option
To counter the pass rush many teams throw quick passes. If you have a lockdown corner you can play man which makes those quick passes harder to do, imo.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 19, 2025, 05:54:13 PMThat has more value than a true #1 lockdown corner to you?
I never said that. Just said making an offense 1 dimensional may be a D's best present to itself plus an ability to push back the interior pocket. Agree that lockdown CBs are very valuable.
Quote from: sooners56 on January 19, 2025, 08:55:28 PMTo counter the pass rush many teams throw quick passes. If you have a lockdown corner you can play man which makes those quick passes harder to do, imo.
Fair point. Will Johnson is a very good tackler so quick passes to him typically generate less YAC.
One thing Giants always had on defense was a HOF type player. As of now the Giants have Dex who might be headed that way but needs to do more if he wants HOF. Other than Dex the Giants have okay pass rushers no one that is even All Pro consideration. That is why I truly believe the pick at three needs to be Carter. I think Carter will be perennial All Pro averaging 12-15 sacks per year and cause havoc on the defensive side of the ball. He will bring back memories of Strahan, Osi and Tuck. The Giants have always been about defense. Defense wins championships.
To any Penn State fan who watches ALOT of Penn State games - does Carter take plays off or throttles down in plays or does he play to the whistle like Micah Parsons? In the few PSU games I watched, he seems to do that.
You have to look at the draft in terms of its strength. One of the strongest positions in this year's draft is reported to be DT. That being said it isn't that the Giants' defense needs Tackles but what would be more important or more difficult later in the draft? Is adding a shutdown Corner or pass-rushing DE more important?
Quote from: Shoelessjoe on January 20, 2025, 01:17:05 PMYou have to look at the draft in terms of its strength. One of the strongest positions in this year's draft is reported to be DT. That being said it isn't that the Giants' defense needs Tackles but what would be more important or more difficult later in the draft? Is adding a shutdown Corner or pass-rushing DE more important?
I wouldn't call it deep, there are 2 1st rd prospects, and 3-4 2nd/3rd rd prospects. Cb, wr, and Ot are much deeper.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 20, 2025, 01:22:45 PMI wouldn't call it deep, there are 2 1st rd prospects, and 3-4 2nd/3rd rd prospects. Cb, wr, and Ot are much deeper.
If we got Will Johnson in round 1, then your boy Nolen in round 2 for DT and got an OT in round 3 like Josh Connerly from Oregon or maybe Emery Jones from LSU with a Will Howard QB in round 4 and with a FA QB, that would be a good haul of talent at critical positions.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 21, 2025, 09:52:18 AMIf we got Will Johnson in round 1, then your boy Nolen in round 2 for DT and got an OT in round 3 like Josh Connerly from Oregon or maybe Emery Jones from LSU with a Will Howard QB in round 4 and with a FA QB, that would be a good haul of talent at critical positions.
Is Will Howard good? Because if he's good he can't possibly last to the 4th round right? And if he does last to the 4th round is he worth the Giants time since they need a guy that can start right away and not be a disaster?
Quote from: Philosophers on January 21, 2025, 09:52:18 AMIf we got Will Johnson in round 1, then your boy Nolen in round 2 for DT and got an OT in round 3 like Josh Connerly from Oregon or maybe Emery Jones from LSU with a Will Howard QB in round 4 and with a FA QB, that would be a good haul of talent at critical positions.
Joe,
I get that this draft has a lean toward defense in terms of how prospects rate. That being said, is there no offensive players worth taking in the 2nd? Lineman that rate equally to the DT in the 2nd?
I don't want them drafting for need rather than BPA, just hard to fathom that a team that has averaged under 16 ppg for 2 years would draft defense in rounds 1 and 2.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 21, 2025, 09:52:18 AMIf we got Will Johnson in round 1, then your boy Nolen in round 2 for DT and got an OT in round 3 like Josh Connerly from Oregon or maybe Emery Jones from LSU with a Will Howard QB in round 4 and with a FA QB, that would be a good haul of talent at critical positions.
I like the RT from Texas on top ov Connerly for a mid round tackle. I'd be happy with that draft.
I think you sign a FA QB , draft Mason Graham at 3 and a QB with the second pick in the second round. In round 3 and OL men in both rounds
Quote from: uconnjack8 on January 21, 2025, 10:47:58 AMJoe,
I get that this draft has a lean toward defense in terms of how prospects rate. That being said, is there no offensive players worth taking in the 2nd? Lineman that rate equally to the DT in the 2nd?
I don't want them drafting for need rather than BPA, just hard to fathom that a team that has averaged under 16 ppg for 2 years would draft defense in rounds 1 and 2.
Matt - I am with you that after two years of 16 points per game, we need huge help in offense. Frankly if the draft had more offense in early round 1, I'd prefer that. That said it is not.
However, round 2 is where I think we can help our offense. As you know we can grab a QB there but I want to see us focus on linemen. As I wrote, guys like Josh Connerly, Emory Jones as tackles, Tate Ratledge is IMHO a day 1 starting NFL RG from UGA. We seem to have a hole at RG so I would love that pick. Connerly controlled Ohio State's entire right side of their DL in the CFP. He's a left tackle with incredible athleticism and lateral movement. Wyatt Milum from West Virginia is an OT who likely plays Guard. He blocked Abdul Carter one on one and took him out of the game.
If you think the Giants need another RB to complement Tracy, both RBs out of Ohio State are good, TreVeon Henderson and Q. Judkins. TH is dual threat RB with great hands while Judkins is a downhill hard running back.
If you think we need another WR to complement Nabers, there are a bunch.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 21, 2025, 11:17:49 AMI like the RT from Texas on top ov Connerly for a mid round tackle. I'd be happy with that draft.
Watch Connerly against Ohio State in the CFP. He was outstanding.