I have come to conclusion that getting Sanders or Ward seems unlikely
But Hunter is not a bad option either... BUT how elite is he on either side of the ball ? It seems like the census is he will be a full time corner with sprinkled in offense... sounds like a great problem too have.... but is he ELITE as a CB ? Or is there a better corner in the draft ?
It seems like their is a bonafide CB or pass rusher that could be had
Im just getting Isiah Simmons vibes here ... tweener in College who dominated but didn't translate well to the NFL
Quote from: killarich on January 13, 2025, 11:30:57 PMI have come to conclusion that getting Sanders or Ward seems unlikely
But Hunter is not a bad option either... BUT how elite is he on either side of the ball ? It seems like the census is he will be a full time corner with sprinkled in offense... sounds like a great problem too have.... but is he ELITE as a CB ? Or is there a better corner in the draft ?
It seems like their is a bonafide CB or pass rusher that could be had
Im just getting Isiah Simmons vibes here ... tweener in College who dominated but didn't translate well to the NFL
Simmons is not a good comp for Hunter. Simmons didn't have a position in the NFL. Hunter would be a day 1 starter at whatever position he decides.
He's a very good CB and would instantly be our #1 CB. That said, Will Johnson is a better CB.
Hunter would be our #2 WR if he played that position full time, and I think he's put up decent numbers. But I don't like the idea of playing him on offense as a gadget guy, and I don't think the Giants are creative enough to use him in that capacity.
So if we're only drafting him with one position in mind, then Johnson would be the way to go.
Quote from: killarich on January 13, 2025, 11:30:57 PMI have come to conclusion that getting Sanders or Ward seems unlikely
But Hunter is not a bad option either... BUT how elite is he on either side of the ball ? It seems like the census is he will be a full time corner with sprinkled in offense... sounds like a great problem too have.... but is he ELITE as a CB ? Or is there a better corner in the draft ?
It seems like their is a bonafide CB or pass rusher that could be had
Im just getting Isiah Simmons vibes here ... tweener in College who dominated but didn't translate well to the NFL
There's no better CB this year. The guy from Michigan may be just as good, but there are none better. Bob
The problem playing both sides in the NFL is the grueling schedule. Four more games plus the preseason. I don't think he needs to be a gadget player but I can see him on third and long. I can also see him starting on Offense if Nabors goes down for a game or two.
I think he is a better corner than receiver, I am sure he will play both, just don't think it will be, or should be full time in the big leagues.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 14, 2025, 08:18:31 AMThe problem playing both sides in the NFL is the grueling schedule. Four more games plus the preseason. I don't think he needs to be a gadget player but I can see him on third and long. I can also see him starting on Offense if Nabors goes down for a game or two.
If the Giants were to draft him, I would think he would be the starting (and number one CB). He would take maybe half a dozen WR snaps a game (depending on snap counts).
That's an interesting idea in terms of Hunter being a potential backup for Nabers. I would think such a plan would be dependent on how much better and deeper Schoen and Daboll can build up the CB room. I mean if he were to be a starting WR, I wouldn't want him taking that many snaps at CB.
Here is the problem with two way athletes. Once they get injured and believe me they will. You lose two players. Thats why I prefer him to be a receiver he would be more dynamic there using his skills to be more impactful. If Giants want to use him as a receiver then I'm all for it. But if they want him as CB I'm going to pass and select Abdul Carter who I believe has HOF potential.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2025, 08:24:48 AMIf the Giants were to draft him, I would think he would be the starting (and number one CB). He would take maybe half a dozen WR snaps a game (depending on snap counts).
That's an interesting idea in terms of Hunter being a potential backup for Nabers. I would think such a plan would be dependent on how much better and deeper Schoen and Daboll can build up the CB room. I mean if he were to be a starting WR, I wouldn't want him taking that many snaps at CB.
For sure.
My biggest worry about Hunter is that they will try to make him a 2-way athlete, at which point he truly excels at neither. I just don't think today's NFL is the place for it anymore- not just the physical demands but the mental.
People overvalue him because he plays 2 positions at a high level however he is not the best CB in this draft as that is Will Johnson.
As to WR, McMillan is probably better.
If I am drafting 3 I want the best, not some combo. I like Hunter but if I want a CB I take WJ. If I have some creative use of a two way player I want Hunter. How fast is he? I hear he may be around 4.5. WJ will be faster.
Quote from: Ed Vette on January 14, 2025, 08:18:31 AMThe problem playing both sides in the NFL is the grueling schedule. Four more games plus the preseason. I don't think he needs to be a gadget player but I can see him on third and long. I can also see him starting on Offense if Nabors goes down for a game or two.
Ed: No doubt about it, but if there's a player who can do it, it's Hunter. You noted in a post a long while back that Hunter goes to incredible lengths to develop and maintain his physical stamina and strength. He's the "smaller guy" version of Saquon in that regard. Bob
I'm all on board for drafting Hunter. As far as injuries go, they're going to happen no matter who you draft unless your team is incredibly lucky...after all, football is a brutal game
In a way, I'm glad we fell out of the draft position to have to take one of the two QBs. I believe there might be a QB gem in this year's class, but I'm not sold on the two favorites as "sure things", and blowing a no.1 pick on a QB has a history of unfortunate disasters that set the team back another few years. A review of history in which true franchise QBs developed, aren't always the first or second off the board. Mahommes was a 10th pick in the 2017 draft behind Trubinsky who was the first QB taken. Josh Allen was the third QB taken in the 2018 draft behind Baker Mayfield and Sam Darnold and Lamar Jackson was the 5th QB taken in the same draft...and of course, there is the legendary Tom Brady, a 6th round pick
So, with all that in mind, I'd love to pick a "sure thing" with the no.3 overall pick, rather than roll the dice on a QB, which is anything buy a sure thing
Quote from: PSUBeirut on January 14, 2025, 08:51:04 AMMy biggest worry about Hunter is that they will try to make him a 2-way athlete, at which point he truly excels at neither. I just don't think today's NFL is the place for it anymore- not just the physical demands but the mental.
PSU: We don't know for sure that they will try to play him on both sides, although I'm certain he will have the opportunity to show his stuff on offense and defense, at a minimum, during training camp. You're 100-percent right IMO about everything else, but I'll say that if anyone could still be an "iron man" it is Hunter, who is in "Saquon-level" physical condition for his body type. Bob
Quote from: Stringer Bell on January 14, 2025, 12:03:07 AMSimmons is not a good comp for Hunter. Simmons didn't have a position in the NFL. Hunter would be a day 1 starter at whatever position he decides.
He's a very good CB and would instantly be our #1 CB. That said, Will Johnson is a better CB.
Hunter would be our #2 WR if he played that position full time, and I think he's put up decent numbers. But I don't like the idea of playing him on offense as a gadget guy, and I don't think the Giants are creative enough to use him in that capacity.
So if we're only drafting him with one position in mind, then Johnson would be the way to go.
I completely agree, Stinger. I never bought into the I. Simmons hype because he was a man with a position. Too big and slow to play safety, too lite to play LB. He had limited value to a base defense; however, the same is not true for Hunter, who has two natural positions. If we draft him, I'd use him as a CB and KR/PR. However, I prefer Carter, if he's available at 3, which seems like a long shot.
Quote from: killarich on January 13, 2025, 11:30:57 PMI have come to conclusion that getting Sanders or Ward seems unlikely
But Hunter is not a bad option either... BUT how elite is he on either side of the ball ? It seems like the census is he will be a full time corner with sprinkled in offense... sounds like a great problem too have.... but is he ELITE as a CB ? Or is there a better corner in the draft ?
It seems like their is a bonafide CB or pass rusher that could be had
Im just getting Isiah Simmons vibes here ... tweener in College who dominated but didn't translate well to the NFL
Hunter is an otherworldly athlete with great instincts who plays football. By that I mean he isn't a polished route runner or a technically sound corner but he's so athletic and has such a feel for the game that he's elite at the college level. The million dollar question becomes what happens when he goes up against players who are just as athletic as he is in the NFL? Is his route running or technique at corner good enough to win? IMHO the jury is out on that one. Of the position players that could go in the top 5 or 6 picks he is the most likely to be a bust. As a pure corner I like Johnson better and as a pure receiver I like McMillan better. Since he really can't play both in the NFL why would you take him over those two?
I've finally gotten the chance to do extensive tape on both Hunter and Johnson and this is my opinion.
Hunter: Despite playing corner in college with Deion as his coach he is still really raw as a prospect. He's ELITE IQ and athleticism really show. His 91.1 PFF cover grade was tops in the FBS, with a 42.0 passer rating allowed which was 9th. Has obviously elite ball skills.
Immediate concerns: seems significantly better in zone than press. Had the 4th lowest reps in man in the CFB. 185 out 378 coverage snaps. Has a really lean frame, he's listed at 6'1 185lbs but from what I heard it's closer to 6'0 178lbs right now.
Comps:
Wr- Think Devonta Smith with Marvin Harrisons IQ but doesn't run routes as well as Smith.
CB- Champ Bailey lite
Will Johnson He's the best Corner I've seen in years. 6'2 202lb physical corner that can play man or zone, inside or outside. His eyes and reactionary ability are unmatched out of college. Elite ball skills and IQ were he baits qbs and even though he hardly got thrown at he still had 9 ints in 3 years. Came in as a freshman and was elite immediately as a freshman. I watched his tape vs Marvin Harrison Jr and Jermiah Smith and came away even more impressed.
Comp: Sauce Gardners physical style and IQ with Surtains coverage ability. Johnson may be the perfect built in a lab modern corner.
Fast fact Johnson was a 2 way player through high school and wanted to continue being one in college but Harbaugh wasn't having it knowing his potential at corner.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 14, 2025, 02:01:15 PMI've finally gotten the chance to do extensive tape on both Hunter and Johnson and this is my opinion.
Hunter: Despite playing corner in college with Deion as his coach he is still really raw as a prospect. He's ELITE IQ and athleticism really show. His 91.1 PFF cover grade was tops in the FBS, with a 42.0 passer rating allowed which was 9th. Has obviously elite ball skills.
Immediate concerns: seems significantly better in zone than press. Had the 4th lowest reps in man in the CFB. 185 out 378 coverage snaps. Has a really lean frame, he's listed at 6'1 185lbs but from what I heard it's closer to 6'0 178lbs right now.
Comps:
Wr- Think Devonta Smith with Marvin Harrisons IQ but doesn't run routes as well as Smith.
CB- Champ Bailey lite
Will Johnson He's the best Corner I've seen in years. 6'2 202lb physical corner that can play man or zone, inside or outside. His eyes and reactionary ability are unmatched out of college. Elite ball skills and IQ were he baits qbs and even though he hardly got thrown at he still had 9 ints in 3 years. Came in as a freshman and was elite immediately as a freshman. I watched his tape vs Marvin Harrison Jr and Jermiah Smith and came away even more impressed.
Comp: Sauce Gardners physical style and IQ with Surtains coverage ability. Johnson may be the perfect built in a lab modern corner.
Fast fact Johnson was a 2 way player through high school and wanted to continue being one in college but Harbaugh wasn't having it knowing his potential at corner.
Thanks for this, Jess. :ok:
When scouting, it matters the quality of the competition a prospect faces. You have to think that Johnson faced better WRs than Hunter.
Guys - I've been saying saying this for 2 months on Will Johnson. I have not watched tape. I've watched all his games. He was a 5 star at of high school who has continued to develop. He's got already an NFL body at 6'2" 202. Watch him run up to tackle RBs or WRs at LOS. Fearless and great technical tackler. Two years ago it was MH Jr and Jaxson Smith Njiba. Last year it was MH Jr and Eguba. This tear it was Jeremiah Smith. QBs did not throw yet he still had 9 INTs and of those 9 he ran back 3 INTs for TDs. He's the best CB since Sauce Gardner. He blankets and runs step for step in MTM. In Zone, he sits and reads a QB. He has like 6 INTs from Zine and 3 in MTM. Folks who have said Hunter or Trey Amos will be better are crazy IMHO. He even played hurt for much of 2024.
Quote from: Philosophers on January 14, 2025, 02:15:17 PMGuys - I've been saying saying this for 2 months on Will Johnson. I have not watched tape. I've watched all his games. He was a 5 star at of high school who has continued to develop. He's got already an NFL body at 6'2" 202. Watch him run up to tackle RBs or WRs at LOS. Fearless and great technical tackler. Two years ago it was MH Jr and Jaxson Smith Njiba. Last year it was MH Jr and Eguba. This tear it was Jeremiah Smith. QBs did not throw yet he still had 9 INTs and of those 9 he ran back 3 INTs for TDs. He's the best CB since Sauce Gardner. Folks who have said Hunter or Trey Amos will be better are crazy IMHO. He even played hurt for much of 2024.
I agree with you, I just said basically what you did above. He is the best corner I've seen in years, and while I think Amos will be elite also, I was simply stating for the value because you could get him in the 2nd vs having to get Johnson at 3 which would allow you to go Graham or Carter in the 1st. Johnson is my number 1 prospect right now followed by Carter, Hunter, then Graham.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2025, 02:05:44 PMThanks for this, Jess. :ok:
When scouting, it matters the quality of the competition a prospect faces. You have to think that Johnson faced better WRs than Hunter.
I agree completely, which is a concern because Hunter despite being the number 1 prospect out of high school faced very little elite talent at Jackson St and Colorado which I believe hampered his growth significantly. Yes he looks elite vs them but he never really got to show it vs talent.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 14, 2025, 02:20:24 PMI agree with you, I just said basically what you did above. He is the best corner I've seen in years, and while I think Amos will be elite also, I was simply stating for the value because you could get him in the 2nd vs having to get Johnson at 3 which would allow you to go Graham or Carter in the 1st. Johnson is my number 1 prospect right now followed by Carter, Hunter, then Graham.
J: That's my only reservation about taking Hunter... quality of competition. All things considered, I'd go for Graham. IMO, putting him next to Dexter would be a nightmare for any OL. Bob
Hunter is an exceptional athlete who will be a CB1 in the NFL, the position at which he practices 90% of the time. He also is a well-above average WR who, if he was to be drafted by Our Heroes, would see action there not a lot more than situationally in an effort to force opponents to stop double-covering Nabers in certain more critical circumstances.
He would be one among three non-QBs whom I would be satisfied to see them take at 3 if they also make it their business to get Jaxon Dart with their next pick and who initially would then sit behind vet FA bridge QB.
Cheers!
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 14, 2025, 02:20:24 PMI agree with you, I just said basically what you did above. He is the best corner I've seen in years, and while I think Amos will be elite also, I was simply stating for the value because you could get him in the 2nd vs having to get Johnson at 3 which would allow you to go Graham or Carter in the 1st. Johnson is my number 1 prospect right now followed by Carter, Hunter, then Graham.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on January 14, 2025, 02:20:24 PMI agree with you, I just said basically what you did above. He is the best corner I've seen in years, and while I think Amos will be elite also, I was simply stating for the value because you could get him in the 2nd vs having to get Johnson at 3 which would allow you to go Graham or Carter in the 1st. Johnson is my number 1 prospect right now followed by Carter, Hunter, then Graham.
Jess - I know you see it now same as I have as you have dug more into him. I've watched him since his freshmen year and even then he looked very good.
Quote from: Painter on January 14, 2025, 03:06:40 PMHunter is an exceptional athlete who will be a CB1 in the NFL, the position at which he practices 90% of the time. He also is a well-above average WR who, if he was to be drafted by Our Heroes, would see action there not a lot more than situationally in an effort to force opponents to stop double-covering Nabers in certain more critical circumstances.
He would be one among three non-QBs whom I would be satisfied to see them take at 3 if they also make it their business to get Jaxon Dart with their next pick and who initially would then sit behind vet FA bridge QB.
Larry: I forgot who the other 2 1st-round players you would be ok with are (slow burn on the memory). Bob
I stumbled across this database. It's how 2024 DBs did against PFF WRs in the top 300. It includes Hunter and Johnson
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhBtZyDnL75F3kaVafEPcrLPQUUo6mbZ3rFre1tAkaA/edit?gid=989464940#gid=989464940
I think Will Johnson is all around better than Carter and Graham plays with a non stop motor and relentless tenacity and pursuit ala Aiden Hutchinson. Abdul Carter has wonderful physical attributes but when I have seen him play, he slows down or gives up in pursuits. I dont see the tenacity that Graham has.
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2025, 03:46:21 PMI stumbled across this database. It's how 2024 DBs did against PFF WRs in the top 300. It includes Hunter and Johnson
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhBtZyDnL75F3kaVafEPcrLPQUUo6mbZ3rFre1tAkaA/edit?gid=989464940#gid=989464940
Look at the competition.
Quote from: Bob In PA on January 14, 2025, 03:40:08 PMLarry: I forgot who the other 2 1st-round players you would be ok with are (slow burn on the memory). Bob
Mason Graham alongside Dex would be a joy to behold. Or Will Johnson unless they haven't given up on Banks. I am also aware of the support garnered by Abdul Carter.
Cheers!, Bob
Quote from: MightyGiants on January 14, 2025, 03:46:21 PMI stumbled across this database. It's how 2024 DBs did against PFF WRs in the top 300. It includes Hunter and Johnson
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LhBtZyDnL75F3kaVafEPcrLPQUUo6mbZ3rFre1tAkaA/edit?gid=989464940#gid=989464940
In the CFP Final, Will Johnson took Rome Odunze completely out of the game.
Quote from: Painter on January 14, 2025, 05:07:54 PMMason Graham alongside Dex would be a joy to behold. Or Will Johnson unless they haven't given up on Banks. I am also aware of the support garnered by Abdul Carter.
Cheers!, Bob
Indeed, Larry; we might finally be able to control those pesky A and B gaps. We've been a bottom run-stopping team for far too long.
Quote from: kingm56 on January 14, 2025, 05:26:38 PMIndeed, Larry; we might finally be able to control those pesky A and B gaps. We've been a bottom run-stopping team for far too long.
Matt - Michigan's rush D held opponents to only 3.1 yards per carry. Against Alabama and Ohio State they held them to 2.3 and 3.0 yards per carry. Graaham was a big part. So was Kenneth Grant. I've also advocated drafting Grant and having him play NT and moving Dex to DT. Two 340 pounders in the interior.
Good responses everyone
So that was my worry I view Hunter as the best player in this draft... but this is against college competition... and in the NFL it seems like he will play just one side if the ball , which is fine . But if that's the case he has to truly be the best at that position. It seems at least one player is better on each ... like Johnson for example
After reading the responses ... I wonder if any of the 2 teams behind us are high on Hunter and would give us maybe a third rounder to move up a few spots ... reason being after some of your analysis I kind of want Graham now next to sexy dexy if we could sign a free agent CB to pair with banks (hopefully to move him to cb2)
I think that line paired with Thibs and Burns would be crazy making life easier for whoever is at CB
Quote from: Painter on January 14, 2025, 05:07:54 PMMason Graham alongside Dex would be a joy to behold. Or Will Johnson un
less they haven't given up on Banks. I am also aware of the support garnered by Abdul Carter.
Cheers!, Bob
Totally agree. I have been touting Graham since the Day of the Flood . That is not to diminish Carter or Johnson at all. The great Giant teams were built in the trenches and that is where we have to concentrate .
I would go all out and sign DL Reed which would lessen the need for Johnson or Hunter.