I was going to wait until after tonight for this, but... I think Dart would have been there at 34.
Even if you argue he wouldn't have been (there ARE good arguments), IMO it was only necessary get ahead of one team (the Browns) after the Steelers failed to draft a QB in the first round last night.
I'd have risked waiting -or- traded with the Titans for 32. In any event, the really good news is the powers-that-be must really believe in Dart, so I'm happy we have him. Just think we overpaid.
Bob
Many seem to think the Rams were going to take him, the immediate trade back also seems to support that.
In any case, I said this already in another thread, but if he is your guy, and you truly believe in him and want him (which they clearly do), Then you do not assume, you do not hope, you do not take chances, you get him, and you move on.
We will never know for sure, but regardless, it is not a chance worth taking. It would be malpractice to do so.
My gut tells me yes, they could get him at 34. But, the price to move up was not that bad. Rams traded out of 26 and might have been willing to do so after Dart went off the board. Might have been A LOT higher on Dart than Sanders and may not have wanted the Browns to be able to steal him.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 11:28:21 AMI was going to wait until after tonight for this, but... I think Dart would have been there at 34.
Even if you argue he wouldn't have been (there ARE good arguments), IMO it was only necessary get ahead of one team (the Browns) after the Steelers failed to draft a QB in the first round last night.
I'd have risked waiting -or- traded with the Titans for 32. In any event, the really good news is the powers-that-be must really believe in Dart, so I'm happy we have him. Just think we overpaid.
Bob
I look at what the Rams did immediately after the Giants grabbed Dart and can't think anything other than they were targeting him with their own pick. Given that I don't see him making it past the Rams, I think it was necessary and the price does not prevent them from moving on in a worst case scenario. Securing the 5th year option isn't nothing, as well (though it may be a bit overstated, because if he shows himself to be a franchise QB he'll assuredly get a new deal before playing on that option).
Quote from: MrGap92 on April 25, 2025, 11:31:55 AMMany seem to think the Rams were going to take him, the immediate trade back also seems to support that.
In any case, I said this already in another thread, but if he is your guy, and you truly believe in him and want him (which they clearly do), Then you do not assume, you do not hope, you do not take chances, you get him, and you move on.
We will never know for sure, but regardless, it is not a chance worth taking. It would be malpractice to do so.
G: I respect that argument, just as I respect the move they made to do it. Too late now anyway. Bob
Its total speculation. No one knows. I'm looking at it this way. First, Mara's public statement about finding a QB has to affect Schoen's decision making and who know what he said behind the scenes. Two, we clearly did not overpay if Dart is the real thing. Three, if we believe that Daboll really wanted Dart, and I do, it has to be a positive move. Having McVay interested is also a positive Dart can spend a red shirt year which has to help.
Quote from: coggs on April 25, 2025, 11:33:43 AMMy gut tells me yes, they could get him at 34. But, the price to move up was not that bad. Rams traded out of 26 and might have been willing to do so after Dart went off the board. Might have been A LOT higher on Dart than Sanders and may not have wanted the Browns to be able to steal him.
cogg:s All good arguments. I'm assuming then that (like me) you would not have done it. But I'm not saying it was a bad move. They could see him as "the next [fill-in-the-blank]" so I can't say it was reckless. Bob
Jess pointed out that he believes the Saints were in play and wanted Dart as well, and many believe the Browns would've taken Dart with the 33rd pick if he was still available
Since it's lyin-season, no one really knows what other teams were targeting behind closed doors. But I believe a couple teams or more thought they could get him by waiting. The Rams were definitely a little pissed that the Giants snagged him one pick ahead of them. But again...everything is speculation and teams aren't going to admit who they were targeting. In this case, I think Dart was a lot more desirable than teams let on...and for good reason. It also backs up the ole saying, "you snooze, you lose"
My gut says the Rams were the hinge point, as they often are in round one. I, too, think it's becoming obvious that most QB needy teams likely had Dart rated ahead of Sanders. For what was given up (and, what was NOT given up- namely Thibs and pick 65) I think it was the right move.
I concur with the assessment regarding the Rams. If Los Angeles hadn't moved up, the Cleveland Browns would have been an equally strong landing spot. Multiple reports also suggest that New Orleans was exploring a trade to re-enter the first round. In short, I put the probability of Dart still being available at pick 34 at well under 20 percent. I believe the Giants made a calculated risk-reward transaction.
Quote from: H-Town G-Fan on April 25, 2025, 11:33:56 AMI look at what the Rams did immediately after the Giants grabbed Dart and can't think anything other than they were targeting him with their own pick. Given that I don't see him making it past the Rams, I think it was necessary and the price does not prevent them from moving on in a worst case scenario. Securing the 5th year option isn't nothing, as well (though it may be a bit overstated, because if he shows himself to be a franchise QB he'll assuredly get a new deal before playing on that option).
H-T: All the best arguments.
I was just wondering what others thought (because I wouldn't have done it).
Bottom line: IMO it was worth a shot (because I trust their judgment on how good he CAN be), but having to wait a year does IMO "add" significantly to the price they paid.
Bob
Quote from: kingm56 on April 25, 2025, 11:47:09 AMI concur with the assessment regarding the Rams. If Los Angeles hadn't moved up, the Cleveland Browns would have been an equally strong landing spot. Multiple reports also suggest that New Orleans was exploring a trade to re-enter the first round. In short, I put the probability of Dart still being available at pick 34 at well under 20 percent. I believe the Giants made a calculated risk-reward transaction.
king: I like the mathematical aspect you brought into the discussion. I think that played a strong role in their final decision. Here's hoping it makes MORE AND MORE sense as time goes by! Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 11:44:14 AMcogg:s All good arguments. I'm assuming then that (like me) you would not have done it. But I'm not saying it was a bad move. They could see him as "the next [fill-in-the-blank]" so I can't say it was reckless. Bob
At the time, I wouldn't have. But, that was before the Rams traded out. If they gave up 34 and 65 I would have been annoyed. 34 and a 2nd next year, I would have been annoyed. But, I am ok with this. And, I think I just talked myself out of my previous answer of "My gut tells me they could have got him at 34..."
Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on April 25, 2025, 11:44:59 AMJess pointed out that he believes the Saints were in play and wanted Dart as well, and many believe the Browns would've taken Dart with the 33rd pick if he was still available
Since it's lyin-season, no one really knows what other teams were targeting behind closed doors. But I believe a couple teams or more thought they could get him by waiting. The Rams were definitely a little pissed that the Giants snagged him one pick ahead of them. But again...everything is speculation and teams aren't going to admit who they were targeting. In this case, I think Dart was a lot more desirable than teams let on...and for good reason. It also backs up the ole saying, "you snooze, you lose"
Jolly: You're right about "lyin' season" lol so we'll never know.
I think for all the reasons stated above it is highly likely staying put (or even trading up to 32).
However, I still would not have done it. I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW.
Bob
Quote from: coggs on April 25, 2025, 11:50:59 AMAt the time, I wouldn't have. But, that was before the Rams traded out. If they gave up 34 and 65 I would have been annoyed. 34 and a 2nd next year, I would have been annoyed. But, I am ok with this. And, I think I just talked myself out of my previous answer of "My gut tells me they could have got him at 34..."
Well said, Coggs. The draft capital invested is commensurate with the potential payoff; this move could prove to be the inflection point that redirects the franchise's trajectory. Even if the upside never materializes, the downside risk is minimal. In short, it's a sound risk-reward play.
Quote from: PSUBeirut on April 25, 2025, 11:46:50 AMMy gut says the Rams were the hinge point, as they often are in round one. I, too, think it's becoming obvious that most QB needy teams likely had Dart rated ahead of Sanders. For what was given up (and, what was NOT given up- namely Thibs and pick 65) I think it was the right move.
PSU: For us it hardly matters because we got our PSU guy regardless. lol
If you like Dart and maybe not other Qbs as much, isn't your downside bigger than your upside?
What is gained by second-guessing which, other than whining, seems to be almost instinctive around here? Either you are satisfied with what they did, or you are not. Just say so and be done with it.
Cheers!
Quote from: Philosophers on April 25, 2025, 11:57:43 AMIf you like Dart and maybe not other Qbs as much, isn't your downside bigger than your upside?
I'm not tracking your question, Joe. To be fair, I'm only on my first cup of coffee while preparing for a speech; so, I'll profess to being slow this morning...
Quote from: kingm56 on April 25, 2025, 11:56:04 AMthis move could prove to be the inflection point that redirects the franchise's trajectory
king: If so, then, as Frank Loesser memorably wrote,
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition"
(an American patriotic song) because it's about f-'n' time!
Bob
Quote from: Painter on April 25, 2025, 11:58:47 AMWhat is gained by second-guessing which, other than whining, seems to be almost instinctive around here? Either you are satisfied with what they did, or you are not. Just say so and be done with it.
Larry: "Could we have obtained Dart without trading up" is a fair question for anyone interested in professional football, and I don't see any whining in any of the responses (except for your post whining about the question). Cheers.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 12:03:00 PMking: If so, then, as Frank Loesser memorably wrote, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" (an American patriotic song) because it's about f-'n' time! Bob
It helps to remember that if there is an inflection point, there is assuredly only one way it could point: UP. :P
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 12:03:00 PMking: If so, then, as Frank Loesser memorably wrote, "Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition" (an American patriotic song) because it's about f-'n' time! Bob
LOL!
Time will tell, Bob. For the first time in years I'm genuinely satisfied with the roster and convinced the franchise is on the right trajectory. Even in 2023 I felt fans badly over-estimated both the roster and the quarterback; I capped that group at seven wins.
Today the outlook is entirely different: we have a core of tangible talent under 25, and a defense that may be the strongest we've fielded in nearly a decade—good enough to keep us in every game. I'm not yet certain Dart is the long-term answer, but his intangibles are impressive and his physical tools are at least NFL-average. Add in a deep, quality skill-position group, and there is finally reason for optimism. I'm looking forward to this season in a way I haven't for a long time.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 11:28:21 AMI was going to wait until after tonight for this, but... I think Dart would have been there at 34.
Even if you argue he wouldn't have been (there ARE good arguments), IMO it was only necessary get ahead of one team (the Browns) after the Steelers failed to draft a QB in the first round last night.
I'd have risked waiting -or- traded with the Titans for 32. In any event, the really good news is the powers-that-be must really believe in Dart, so I'm happy we have him. Just think we overpaid.
Bob
Devonta Smith says hello.
We will never know for certain what would have happened if we had not traded up. I am not a huge fan of the decision but we are where we are. If Daboll is right about Dart it will transform our future. If he is wrong he and Schoen will get fired and we will endure the consequences. The swing has been taken. The pitch is still inbound and the outcome uncertain.
Yeah, it's a fair question.
We were really just looking for a partner to trade with so we can get the 5th year option on him. Also if things stayed the way they were, we were really only scared of the browns top of second taking him. We jumped 9 spots. Probably an 80 percent chance we could have stayed put. But what's done is done. I am happy to have him. All those qb's that got past the Saints and especially the steelers were probably falling much later than many would think. That 2 and comp third were essential to us building the trenches imho.
I know nobody wants to talk about this yet, but if we have an awful season and arch manning or someone generational is there I hope Jaxson Darts "potential" doesn't preclude them from pulling that trigger in 2026.
Quote from: madbadger on April 25, 2025, 12:51:37 PMDevonta Smith says hello.
madb: Good one! I'll put you down as a "no" in response to the question I posed. lol
Speaking of that, what did you make of the Eagles switching picks with the Chiefs?
If it was to block a team, which team do you think they were trying to block from trading with KC?
Bob
How did we feel when Devonte Smith was snaked from us? How about Conklin and Leonard Floyd?
There is no way to know the answer to the question. Still, if you like a QB prospect, better to be aggressive and perhaps miss out on a little value maximization than lose out on the prospect all together
I've got to think that the Giants had some sort of intel or believe that somebody else wanted Dart in order to make this move. Ultimately, the price wasn't that high so, even if they didn't have that intel, making the move to secure their guy isn't a bad play. That said, I don't buy that the Rams were locked in on Dart and moved out because of it. I think they saw an opportunity to trade out of a weaker draft in favor of an additional first rounder next year when they hope the talent available is stronger.
Quote from: Crypto Fareez on April 25, 2025, 12:56:21 PMYeah, it's a fair question.
We were really just looking for a partner to trade with so we can get the 5th year option on him. Also if things stayed the way they were, we were really only scared of the browns top of second taking him. We jumped 9 spots. Probably an 80 percent chance we could have stayed put. But what's done is done. I am happy to have him. All those qb's that got past the Saints and especially the steelers were probably falling much later than many would think. That 2 and comp third were essential to us building the trenches imho.
I know nobody wants to talk about this yet, but if we have an awful season and arch manning or someone generational is there I hope Jaxson Darts "potential" doesn't preclude them from pulling that trigger in 2026.
Crypto: Nice post. As for Dart's potential, IMO our coaches will know long before the next draft whether they made a mistake, although, considering how long the fooled around with Jones trying to make it work, I can see very clearly WHY you raise the point. Hopefully, they too will still remember how much it cost them to "be loyal" and keep trying in vain to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and move on. One more thing I like about the Dart pick. I do see him and can almost guarantee that the worst we'll get out of him is still good enough to be a long-term backup quarterback, so he'll still come in handy. Bob
Quote from: londonblue on April 25, 2025, 12:55:54 PMWe will never know for certain what would have happened if we had not traded up. I am not a huge fan of the decision but we are where we are. If Daboll is right about Dart it will transform our future. If he is wrong he and Schoen will get fired and we will endure the consequences. The swing has been taken. The pitch is still inbound and the outcome uncertain.
london: Then we pretty much agree. We question the move, but since we still trust the movers, it's okay. Bob
If, as some have said, and Schoen even had an inkling that the Rams were ready to draft Dart, then it was a fantastic move to get the QB we wanted. We sit here and speculate, but insiders, especially GMs, have to have an inkling as to what's going on around them; at least good GMs will.
Time will tell if this was a good move or not, but Schoen has shown he is growing into the GM role each year.
If the Rams were truly ready to draft Dart and the Giants suspected that, the trade-up was perfect. As someone said yesterday, if Philly's GM had made that move, he would be hailed as a genius.
Give Schoen some of the credit.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 25, 2025, 01:01:44 PMHow did we feel when Devonte Smith was snaked from us? How about Conklin and Leonard Floyd?
There is no way to know the answer to the question. Still, if you like a QB prospect, better to be aggressive and perhaps miss out on a little value maximization than lose out on the prospect all together
Rich: I think the only better value they could have gotten (look how much the mover-up right after us paid!) would be to have obtained an NFL-starter-ready player rather than a guy who will sit for one year. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 12:57:16 PMmadb: Good one! I'll put you down as a "no" in response to the question I posed. lol
Speaking of that, what did you make of the Eagles switching picks with the Chiefs?
If it was to block a team, which team do you think they were trying to block from trading with KC?
Bob
Jihad Campbell had a top 10 grade until recently and he falls to Howie Roseman. I swear that guy has a deal with the devil. Great players consistently fall to him. It's maddening.
Ask Phil Simms. He's always been clued in when teams would take a QB.
He'll let us know :)
In all seriousness, the immediate trade down makes me think Dart would have gone to the Rams.
Quote from: jgrangers2 on April 25, 2025, 01:01:58 PMI've got to think that the Giants had some sort of intel or believe that somebody else wanted Dart in order to make this move. Ultimately, the price wasn't that high so, even if they didn't have that intel, making the move to secure their guy isn't a bad play. That said, I don't buy that the Rams were locked in on Dart and moved out because of it. I think they saw an opportunity to trade out of a weaker draft in favor of an additional first rounder next year when they hope the talent available is stronger.
jg: That makes sense. Also, it's possible all the players the Rams really wanted in round one were already taken, so why not get an extra first-rounder for next year. Bob
Quote from: LennG on April 25, 2025, 01:13:24 PMIf, as some have said, and Schoen even had an inkling that the Rams were ready to draft Dart, then it was a fantastic move to get the QB we wanted. We sit here and speculate, but insiders, especially GMs, have to have an inkling as to what's going on around them; at least good GMs will.
Time will tell if this was a good move or not, but Schoen has shown he is growing into the GM role each year.
If the Rams were truly ready to draft Dart and the Giants suspected that, the trade-up was perfect. As someone said yesterday, if Philly's GM had made that move, he would be hailed as a genius.
Give Schoen some of the credit.
Lenn: I do give Schoen and company credit for having the courage of their convictions. Here's hoping their Dart hits the target. lol
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 25, 2025, 01:18:37 PMAsk Phil Simms. He's always been clued in when teams would take a QB.
He'll let us know :)
In all seriousness, the immediate trade down makes me think Dart would have gone to the Rams.
ED: It sure looks that way. And thanks again for The Beast!!! Bob
Quote from: madbadger on April 25, 2025, 01:17:30 PMJihad Campbell had a top 10 grade until recently and he falls to Howie Roseman. I swear that guy has a deal with the devil. Great players consistently fall to him. It's maddening.
madb: Regarding Campbell, in case you don't know it was BOTH shoulders injured at two separate times, so he may not play at all this year.
They CAN afford it. We cannot, which is why I was hoping for a trade up but for a player who can play immediately.
In any event, the move reminds me of when Jerry Jones drafted a really severely injured LB whose name I cannot remember and had to wait at least one year for him to heal (back when they had a top team) and the guy did eventually return to play, and was half-decent but never anything special.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 01:29:08 PMIn any event, the move reminds me of when Jerry Jones drafted a really severely injured LB whose name I cannot remember and had to wait at least one year for him to heal (back when they had a top team) and the guy did eventually return to play, and was half-decent but never anything special.
Bob
Jaylon Smith (also became a New York Giant for a season or two).
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 12:06:33 PMLarry: "Could we have obtained Dart without trading up" is a fair question for anyone interested in professional football, and I don't see any whining in any of the responses (except for your post whining about the question). Cheers.
Talk about touchy, eh! Suits you or not, there is nothing I said that is not true, and you damn well know it. So, which is of more concern, your taking exception or my taking exception? Doesn't really matter although a bit disappointing to have come from you, Bob otherwise I might have chosen to ignore it.
Cheers!
Quote from: Painter on April 25, 2025, 02:06:44 PMTalk about touchy, eh! Suits you or not, there is nothing I said that is not true, and you damn well know it. So, which is of more concern, your taking exception or my taking exception? Doesn't really matter although a bit disappointing to have come from you, Bob otherwise I might have chosen to ignore it.
Well I for one am glad you didn't choose to ignore it.
The risk wasn't worth keeping the 99 and a 2026 3rd.
Thats legit; I'm just fine with that.
Honestly to land the 2nd QB in the draft it is a hell of a deal.
Bob, like everyone else here, I have no idea. However, it struck me that the Giants apparently saw a huge gulf in their perceived value of Ward and Dart. I don't think they would've valued Ward in the same ballpark as the top-3 QBs last year, so I'm not sure where that leaves Dart.
What we know for sure is the Giants valued Dart more than they valued Sanders and the others. I'm not sure that tells us as much as people want to believe it tells us. This is sort of a repeat of the Daniel Jones draft where we hope a guy with tools can be molded into something more. Time will tell.
The thing I takeaway from the noise/smoke is that McVey and Kellen Moore both wanted to work with Dart, and that should make people excited.
Doc,the difference between this draft and the DJ draft was Gettleman fell in love at the Senior Bowl and made his mind up. Our evaluation was done, everything else was box ticking. This time around the process has been exhaustive. We can pretty much be certain there has been vigorous debate and robust exchanges (given the number of different reports from different commentators on differences of opinion). Ultimately this all landed on Dart.
A better process does not guarantee a better outcome than with DJ but it is at least a step in the right direction IMO.
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on April 25, 2025, 02:29:16 PMBob, like everyone else here, I have no idea. However, it struck me that the Giants apparently saw a huge gulf in their perceived value of Ward and Dart. I don't think they would've valued Ward in the same ballpark as the top-3 QBs last year, so I'm not sure where that leaves Dart.
What we know for sure is the Giants valued Dart more than they valued Sanders and the others. I'm not sure that tells us as much as people want to believe it tells us. This is sort of a repeat of the Daniel Jones draft where we hope a guy with tools can be molded into something more. Time will tell.
Doc: IMO the factor distinguishing Dart from Ward is that Ward is a more or less "finished product" and will likely start by mid-season, if not right away. No one anywhere that I've seen has said Dart is ready to take the field, because he played in mostly college "gimmick" offenses.
The fact that coach Lane Kiffin put a few pro-offense-type packages in the Old Miss offense especially for Dart (probably fulfilling a promise to do so in exchange for Dart agreeing to attend Ole Miss) is IMO the biggest (and possibly only) reason the Giants stuck their neck out yesterday.
I can't distinguish Dart from Daniel Jones because I have no idea WHAT the Giants were thinking when they drafted Jones so high, but IMO the similarities (at least physically) between the two are significant. One noteworthy difference is that whatever was "wrong" with Jones was never officially specified by anyone connected with the Giants (to my knowledge) while it is acknowledged almost universally that Dart needs time to get up-to-speed in certain areas which have been defined. In other words, Dart has a ceiling he is nowhere near as of today, and the Giants believe that when he hit's it, it will become clear why they took the gamble yesterday.
Bob
Quote from: londonblue on April 25, 2025, 02:45:12 PMDoc,the difference between this draft and the DJ draft was Gettleman fell in love at the Senior Bowl and made his mind up. Our evaluation was done, everything else was box ticking. This time around the process has been exhaustive. We can pretty much be certain there has been vigorous debate and robust exchanges (given the number of different reports from different commentators on differences of opinion). Ultimately this all landed on Dart.
A better process does not guarantee a better outcome than with DJ but it is at least a step in the right direction IMO.
I agree wholeheartedly. Gettleman snubbed the premier pass rusher to get a flawed QB with some potential in a weak QB class. This regime was smart enough to secure the premier pass rusher first, and then circled back for the flawed QB with some potential in a weak QB class.
I will give Gettlemen credit for following up the disastrous Jones pick with Dexter Lawrence. So the talent value for the Giants is similar between the two draft classes. The process, as you correctly pointed out, was professional and thorough this year.
Quote from: babywhales on April 25, 2025, 02:25:46 PMThe risk wasn't worth the 99 and a 2026 3rd.
Thats legit; I'm just fine with that.
Honestly to land the 2nd QB in the draft it is a hell of a deal.
Hi Chris: Considering that we have no other young prospect, it's certainly a good thing that they got one. Second QB over all is great, but there wasn't much competition. Ordinarily I'd be concerned, but necks are on the line, so I believe that the Giants believe in Dart and will be rooting for him 100 percent. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 02:51:17 PMDoc: IMO the factor distinguishing Dart from Ward is that Ward is a more or less "finished product" and will likely start by mid-season, if not right away. No one anywhere that I've seen has said Dart is ready to take the field, because he played in mostly college "gimmick" offenses.
The fact that coach Lane Kiffin put a few pro-offense-type packages in the Old Miss offense especially for Dart (probably fulfilling a promise to do so in exchange for Dart agreeing to attend Ole Miss) is IMO the biggest (and possibly only) reason the Giants stuck their neck out yesterday.
I can't distinguish Dart from Daniel Jones because I have no idea WHAT the Giants were thinking when they drafted Jones so high, but IMO the similarities (at least physically) between the two are significant. One noteworthy difference is that whatever was "wrong" with Jones was never officially specified by anyone connected with the Giants (to my knowledge) while it is acknowledged almost universally that Dart needs time to get up-to-speed in certain areas which have been defined. In other words, Dart has a ceiling he is nowhere near as of today, and the Giants believe that when he hit's it, it will become clear why they took the gamble yesterday.
Bob
I agree with this take. My issue is whether Daboll will be given the time to try and develop Dart. I think it was Boomer this morning who said Daboll gets two bites at the apple. He can win now with Wilson in the first half of the season, or he can show potential with Dart in the second half of the season. If he isn't able to accomplish either of the two, I'm not sure how he survives to 2026.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 25, 2025, 02:30:07 PMThe thing I takeaway from the noise/smoke is that McVey and Kellen Moore both wanted to work with Dart, and that should make people excited.
J: And Kiffin was willing to "bend" a bit (putting in some pro packages, which is a heck of a thing for a college coach to do, IMO). College coaches have enough problems just getting everyone to pay attention to the details of ONE offensive system, let alone having to put in extra work needed to run something completely different. Bob
Quote from: Doc16LT56 on April 25, 2025, 02:58:22 PMI agree with this take. My issue is whether Daboll will be given the time to try and develop Dart. I think it was Boomer this morning who said Daboll gets two bites at the apple. He can win now with Wilson in the first half of the season, or he can show potential with Dart in the second half of the season. If he isn't able to accomplish either of the two, I'm not sure how he survives to 2026.
Doc: Ah, someone finally came around to the "dark corner" in this issue. Is is possible Daboll pushed extra hard for Dart because he (and everyone else) knew the kid was a "2-year" project, and the last thing Giants want is to change coaches in the middle of a 2-year project... if you see the picture I'm painting. Bob
We'll of course never know, but my personal view is that the odds we would have gotten Dart at 34 were something in the 65-75% range. If I'm right about that, we absolutely did the right thing to trade up, assuming Schoen/Daboll legitimately believe in his potential and weren't just forcing this out of desperation. I'm choosing to believe they really believe they can turn him into something legit, so this was the right move. Quite honestly, it was the right move even if they thought the odds were 80 or 90%. The Saints were reportedly hot on him and could have jumped them at 34. If he was the guy you had to have, you don't take even a small risk of that for this kind of trade cost.
Quote from: DaveBrown74 on April 25, 2025, 03:14:29 PMWe'll of course never know, but my personal view is that the odds we would have gotten Dart at 34 were something in the 65-75% range. If I'm right about that, we absolutely did the right thing to trade up, assuming Schoen/Daboll legitimately believe in his potential and weren't just forcing this out of desperation. I'm choosing to believe they really believe they can turn him into something legit, so this was the right move. Quite honestly, it was the right move even if they thought the odds were 80 or 90%. The Saints were reportedly hot on him and could have jumped them at 34. If he was the guy you had to have, you don't take even a small risk of that for this kind of trade cost.
DB: The fact that the Saints did not take any QB was also a key in my thinking.
The fact that the Steelers also passed made me even more certain.
But you have to hand it to Schoen... if indeed the Rams (or whomever) were secretly interested in Dart, then the move was brilliant... unless, of course, Dart proves to be a dud.
Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 01:04:14 PMCrypto: Nice post. As for Dart's potential, IMO our coaches will know long before the next draft whether they made a mistake, although, considering how long the fooled around with Jones trying to make it work, I can see very clearly WHY you raise the point. Hopefully, they too will still remember how much it cost them to "be loyal" and keep trying in vain to "make a silk purse out of a sow's ear" and move on. One more thing I like about the Dart pick. I do see him and can almost guarantee that the worst we'll get out of him is still good enough to be a long-term backup quarterback, so he'll still come in handy. Bob
This is my issue with the Giants over the last 10 years or so.
Ereck Flowers, Evan Neal, Daniel Jones, Noshame Ximenes, heck even Shane Lemieux. I could go on and on.
Part of being successful in say a business or organization, even a marriage lol is going when to cut bait.
It's not hard to say, "hey this isn't working out". Guys like Jalin Hyatt too. We don't need them to take up resources and roster spots when anyone who has watched the game knows it's not gonna work. But they always just hold onto guys and trot them out there. It's very frustrating. But I do admit, New York is not for everyone, especially at qb. It takes a certain makeup and most don't have it. On top of that you have to be good as well. There are really only 12 or so good NFL qb's on the planet currently. So it gets a bit dicey there. I just wish the best for Dart and his success with us. But please, don't run him out as starting qb and pay him 50 million or whatever in 5 years if he ceiling is game manager. Thats what scares me about this team.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 11:54:32 AMJolly: You're right about "lyin' season" lol so we'll never know.
I think for all the reasons stated above it is highly likely staying put (or even trading up to 32).
However, I still would not have done it. I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW.
Bob
Thinking we overpaid is totally reasonable. I don't agree, but it's not a ridiculous opinion or anything.
But to me, the reason why you feel that way "I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW" doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't think we're competing for a title in 2025 under any circumstances. So what does it matter if your QB of the future sits for a year and soaks up all the knowledge he can?
Do you believe that if we traded up for the right guy, we would be in a position to contend?
No..But that is speculative..of course. Rams traded out immediately..so I don't believe it was a coincidence..but the price wasn't bad..reasonable..and this is on Daboll now to prove himself..too. I'm okay with it...they had to take a swing..
Bobby loves Milroe more..I never have. No Milroe is even a bigger swing..and Saban was glowing about Dart...let's hope..understandable move.
Quote from: Stringer Bell on April 25, 2025, 03:31:26 PMThinking we overpaid is totally reasonable. I don't agree, but it's not a ridiculous opinion or anything.
But to me, the reason why you feel that way "I would have traded up for a player deemed likely to help us NOW" doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't think we're competing for a title in 2025 under any circumstances. So what does it matter if your QB of the future sits for a year and soaks up all the knowledge he can?
Do you believe that if we traded up for the right guy, we would be in a position to contend?
Stringer: By the way, I never said we paid too much. Yes, people can differ, but I don't think we overpaid in terms of what picks we gave up. But IMO whether a player is ready to start now ALSO affects the evaluation of the trade. To say it backwards, there was a hidden cost to trading up for Dart beyond the picks. It's similar to drafting a player who's injured and you know he can't play this year. That player goes lower in the draft. Example: the Eagles got a guy who would have been in the top ten (at pick 31) because he has two bad shoulders and at least one needs surgery.
As for the topic, I just wondered if people thought Dart would have lasted through the first round, and the answer almost unanimously is "no" (for all of the various reasons they stated above).
Bob
To answer the threads question, No. It appears by the Rams' actions they were prepared to take Dart. I don't understand the feeling of some that we overpaid. It's a swap of nine spots upwards, plus a gift pick from the league that we regifted, and a third next year. Compared to what Atlanta gave up Schoen committed larceny. We now have the perfect set up to develop a QB the way Daboll always envisioned, and gained the 5th year option by being a rd. 1 pick. That was never going to happen with Jones. B/t/w some with opinions that matter think we drafted the best player in the draft earlier. We always win with defense here, and we got a Daniels/Hurts/Dak hunter in Carter. Need a stout DT, and a thumping LB.
Another perspective is that they had to trade up not only to assure getting him, but also to assure getting the 5th year option. In a sense the 5th year option offsets him having to sit for a year.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 25, 2025, 05:59:27 PMAnother perspective is that they had to trade up not only to assure getting him, but also to assure getting the 5th year option. In a sense the 5th year option offsets him having to sit for a year.
This is the point that's getting over looked a lot. He's not playing this year. Not a snap. Unless something goes horribly wrong. So they're going into this burning a year of his rookie contract. If this was a LB it's no big deal for that 5th year but for a QB it's HUGE.
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 25, 2025, 11:28:21 AMI was going to wait until after tonight for this, but... I think Dart would have been there at 34.
Even if you argue he wouldn't have been (there ARE good arguments), IMO it was only necessary get ahead of one team (the Browns) after the Steelers failed to draft a QB in the first round last night.
I'd have risked waiting -or- traded with the Titans for 32. In any event, the really good news is the powers-that-be must really believe in Dart, so I'm happy we have him. Just think we overpaid.
Bob
I honestly think the Main point of the trade was not necessarily to get Dart , but to get Dart with a 5th year option
With the benefit of the second round being underway, based on selections made and commentary on yesterday and today ; Ild say no.
Dart would have not been available at 34
Without accounting for on field play, this is looking more and more like a great move by the Giants
Quote from: killarich on April 25, 2025, 07:27:20 PMI honestly think the Main point of the trade was not necessarily to get Dart , but to get Dart with a 5th year option
I think there is a lot of accuracy in this post.
This is definitely one of those topics people can debate for a while and both sides have valid points.
Quote from: babywhales on April 25, 2025, 07:55:04 PMWith the benefit of the second round being underway, based on selections made and commentary on yesterday and today ; Ild say no.
Dart would have not been available at 34
Without accounting for on field play, this is looking more and more like a great move by the Giants
My guess is there were a few teams looking at Dart. It was him and then the separation and the rest.