Mara was under a lot of pressure from the fans and sections of the media to clean house after the season (I was among them). There were even planes flying over the stadium calling for change.
John Mara stood firm against the pressure and held on to Joe Schoen (and Brian Daboll), and the reward seems to be a really good draft and a solid free agency.
So, should John Mara get some credit?
Would a different GM and HC have done as well?
He absolutely does.
Credit for knowing his role and shutting his mouth? I'll give him credit for that. If he had done that about three years ago this team might be a contender right now but at least he seems to have learned his lesson
I like Mara because I think he's a good man, but do I think he deserves to have bouquets thrown at him simply because he didn't meddle and mess things up? I'd say that's going a little far.
I'm throwing credit out to the scouts, coaching staffs, and front office for this and for the way they collaborated.
I'd also add that none of these guys have even taken a practice snap for the Giants let alone a regular season snap. While I have given an A to this draft and am feeling very good about it right now (as well as free agency), I need to see this team showing material signs of development on the field this year before we put this offseason in the books as a big time offseason.
I am not sure how much due Mara should receive for not bowing to fickle fans, many of whom are happy with the off-season performance from the GM.
I think that's the baseline for an owner, rather than something to applaud.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 27, 2025, 09:54:01 AMI am not sure how much due Mara should receive for not bowing to fickle fans, many of whom are happy with the off-season performance from the GM.
I think that's the baseline for an owner, rather than something to applaud.
Just the "fickle fans"? How about the worst record in the league and a nearly bad record the prior season? Do you think that might have created pressure to move on?
Most fans love their team's draft every year. This one has some promise but I'll save any cap tipping until the end of the season. Continuous improvement and meaningful games in December is all I ask.
Credit for winning the offseason? These guys haven't even practiced yet.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2025, 09:56:47 AMJust the "fickle fans"? How about the worst record in the league and a nearly bad record the prior season? Do you think that might have created pressure to move on?
Depends if he believed in the vision of Schoen. If he believed. It was right to keep him.
Regardless of the outside noise.
Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on April 27, 2025, 10:00:18 AMDepends if he believed in the vision of Schoen. If he believed. It was right to keep him.
Regardless of the outside noise.
Regardless of belief, results (like records and team performance) matter, and I find it hard to believe that objectively bad results wouldn't create pressure to move on.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2025, 09:56:47 AMJust the "fickle fans"? How about the worst record in the league and a nearly bad record the prior season? Do you think that might have created pressure to move on?
https://imgflip.com/i/9s37mm (https://imgflip.com/i/9s37mm)
(https://i.imgflip.com/9s37mm.jpg)
I give Mara credit for just letting new style GMs do their thing, instead of meddling and relying on the fat men from the old guard of the late 1900s. I think it has sunk in, that the modern way of building a team using analytics (and probably AI) and scheming beyond "punching the ball up the middle", and grinding out wins by a strong run game. He's smart to sit back, get out of the way, and give Schoen the chance to build the Giants into a 21st century team. So yeah, some credit goes to Mara
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2025, 10:02:02 AMRegardless of belief, results (like records and team performance) matter, and I find it hard to believe that objectively bad results wouldn't create pressure to move on.
Fair enough but it's not simply results. Many factors impact results - including but certainly not limited to - poor play from oft injured key players. Injuries all round, meddling owners etc.
If decisions were simply made on the pure results of a season - far more teams would be making changes.
No.
He could have fired Schoen and Daboll and started the thing all over again. That's usually a 3-year do-over. It was a ballsy call. He also told them he wanted to see improvement, and that prompted Schoen to solidify the QB position with two Veterans. He didn't demand they draft a QB, at least publicly. The keywords are "Some Credit".
Pretty rare (if not unheard of) for a Giant GM to get fired after just three seasons. Especially when one of those seasons was unexpectedly good and led to a road playoff win. So it would have really be a firing over two bad seasons. I'm not sure I can agree that bringing him back after just two bad years is "ballsy." I'd argue the opposite would have been knee-jerk if not panicky. Gettleman got a full four years (not to mention the courtesy of a delicately handled exit intended to look like voluntary retirement), and he never once presided over a season remotely like Schoen's 2022. I think GMs just get more rope than coaches. Rightly or wrongly. Firing Schoen after last year for two bad years would have been pretty harsh and unusual.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 27, 2025, 10:35:41 AMHe could have fired Schoen and Daboll and started the thing all over again. That's usually a 3-year do-over. It was a ballsy call. He also told them he wanted to see improvement, and that prompted Schoen to solidify the QB position with two Veterans. He didn't demand they draft a QB, at least publicly. The keywords are "Some Credit".
Ed: I'm not surprised. He also ok'd the Jones re-signing. He's a "second and third" chance kind of guy. Bob
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2025, 10:40:30 AMEd: I'm not surprised. He also ok'd the Jones re-signing. He's a "second and third" chance kind of guy. Bob
Tell that to Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge.
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 27, 2025, 09:39:47 AMMara was under a lot of pressure from the fans and sections of the media to clean house after the season (I was among them). There were even planes flying over the stadium calling for change.
John Mara stood firm against the pressure and held on to Joe Schoen (and Brian Daboll), and the reward seems to be a really good draft and a solid free agency.
So, should John Mara get some credit?
Would a different GM and HC have done as well?
Yes absolutely but if he really wants to win now this year as he claimed and compete with the Skins, Boys and Eagles we need a vet clutch #2 WR to add to this group. Go get Keenan Allen or Cooper and this roster really looks strong if Wilson plays anywhere near the player he once was.
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 27, 2025, 10:48:40 AMTell that to Pat Shurmur and Joe Judge.
Ed: There's no denying the validity of your point. All I've got is maybe he didn't go to work that day. lol
Quote from: Bob In PA on April 27, 2025, 11:04:37 AMEd: There's no denying the validity of your point. All I've got is maybe he didn't go to work that day. lol
Or, you can teach an old dog new tricks. ;)
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 27, 2025, 10:58:01 AMYes absolutely but if he really wants to win now this year as he claimed and compete with the Skins, Boys and Eagles we need a vet clutch #2 WR to add to this group. Go get Keenan Allen or Cooper and this roster really looks strong if Wilson plays anywhere near the player he once was.
You save that for year 2 and 3 if Dart hits, you don't go all in before you see what you have in Dart. If Dart hits then you do go all in.
For seemingly staying out of the way, once and for all. Yes.
Quote from: andrew_nyGiants on April 27, 2025, 11:41:35 AMFor seemingly staying out of the way, once and for all. Yes.
They always talk about how well players overcome adversity. In this case Mara overcame adversity, and the adversity was himself.
Quote from: AZGiantFan on April 27, 2025, 12:31:36 PMThey always talk about how well players overcome adversity. In this case Mara overcame adversity, and the adversity was himself.
:funnypost:
John Mara would have been an even bigger fool than usual to have fired Joe Schoen, who throughout his mere 3 season tenure, has been burdened by both personnel and salary cap mismanagement by Dave Gettleman, his own hand-picked bloviating crony.
As far as this fan is concerned, the further Mara keeps his mouth shut and his thumb off the scale, the better will be the organization, the staff, the team, and its fans. Do I think he deserves to share credit for what Schoen & Co now seems to be accomplishing in rebuilding through FA and the Draft these past two years? Hell NO!
Cheers!
Do you feel Joe has full control to make football/personnel decisions?
Quote from: jimc on April 27, 2025, 01:50:42 PMDo you feel Joe has full control to make football/personnel decisions?
Now, yes, his 1st two years no. I think Mara had the bumper guard rails on the first two years spooked because of Gettleman, but then schoen had a talk and Mara let the grip off a little in 2023, and all the way this offseason.
His ineptitude has caused the fan base 11 years of unadulterated misery. I'll cut him some slack when the team starts winning again. In the meantime he can console himself with the billions he and has family have made over that time.
Quote from: madbadger on April 27, 2025, 02:42:10 PMHis ineptitude has caused the fan base 11 years of unadulterated misery. I'll cut him some slack when the team starts winning again. In the meantime he can console himself with the billions he and has family have made over that time.
Through no merit of his, just the organic increase in the value of professional sports teams in general.
No.
Quote from: coggs on April 27, 2025, 04:07:07 PMNo.
coggs: I see your rather "lengthy" answer was exactly the same as mine. What are the odds? lol
Quote from: Ed Vette on April 27, 2025, 10:35:41 AMHe could have fired Schoen and Daboll and started the thing all over again. That's usually a 3-year do-over. It was a ballsy call. He also told them he wanted to see improvement, and that prompted Schoen to solidify the QB position with two Veterans. He didn't demand they draft a QB, at least publicly. The keywords are "Some Credit".
I gave Mara "some credit" in the Schoen thread for not giving into the pitchfork and plane banner crowd.
Schoen isn't the one who needed prompting to upgrade the QB room.
Well..he seemingly let the two .,Daboll and Schoen..create their recovery plan..as far as I can tell. It didn't reek of interference..or meddling..they had to use Dabes skill...from his past..to mold the QB of the future. Why have him as coach then?...or Schoen if they can't select their QB..and sink or swim. Fair enough. .Mara gave them a lifeline..hope we don't have to call again...we've fallen..and we can't get up med alert.
I won't defend Mara's mistakes...but running an NFL team mustn't be easy...
I asked AI about Superbowl Champions since 1985 (chose 40 years just because)...and got this:
Since 1985, the following teams have won the Super Bowl: San Francisco 49ers (1985, 1989, 1990, 1995), Chicago Bears (1986), New York Giants (1987, 1991, 2008, 2012), Washington Redskins (1988), Dallas Cowboys (1993, 1994, 1996), Green Bay Packers (1997), Denver Broncos (1998, 1999), St. Louis Rams (2000), Baltimore Ravens (2001), New England Patriots (2002, 2004, 2005, 2015, 2017, 2019), Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2003), Pittsburgh Steelers (2006, 2009), Indianapolis Colts (2007), Seattle Seahawks (2014), Kansas City Chiefs (2020, 2022, 2023), Los Angeles Rams (2022)
1 team won 7 Championships (with Brady)
2 teams won 4 (both with multiple QBs)
2 teams won 3 (with Mahomes or Aikman)
Sure the last 10+ have NOT been fun for us...
And I still DOUBT Daboll is "the guy"...but I admit I may be wrong because once upon a time many thought Coughlin wasn't either...and we went through MANY bad coaches before him...yet Wellington Mara stayed patient...even after making mistakes...
Many teams (Chiefs, Steelers, etc.) have some REAL good owners...and they also make mistakes.
Here's to hoping learning from mistakes and patience (John Mara's this time) pays off again...
Go Giants!
Daboll proved in 2022 that he can coach with a Qb and no injuries. I say he had a Qb in 2022 because he figured out a way to cheat code Jones into being serviceable before teams solved what he was doing.
Quote from: bamagiantfan on April 27, 2025, 09:57:51 AMMost fans love their team's draft every year. This one has some promise but I'll save any cap tipping until the end of the season. Continuous improvement and meaningful games in December is all I ask.
A man of reason . Thank you . I agree
Generally speaking, I see a lot of praise for this year's draft towards J Schoen.
I find it very hard to assess someone's job because of a draft class that has shown nothing yet. Yes, looks promising ON PAPER, but as is, nothing has been proven yet.
I would wait to say that Schoen has done his job well.
Equally, it's difficult to say whether Mara has taken the right decision to keep JS. We'll see.
I'm old enough to remember when we all got excited with off season moves only to get crushed as fans once the real games began. If I haven't learned my lesson at my age, shame on me.
Quote from: HondurasGiants on April 27, 2025, 07:19:12 PMI won't defend Mara's mistakes...but running an NFL team mustn't be easy...
I asked AI about Superbowl Champions since 1985 (chose 40 years just because)...and got this:
Since 1985, the following teams have won the Super Bowl: San Francisco 49ers (1985, 1989, 1990, 1995), Chicago Bears (1986), New York Giants (1987, 1991, 2008, 2012), Washington Redskins (1988), Dallas Cowboys (1993, 1994, 1996), Green Bay Packers (1997), Denver Broncos (1998, 1999), St. Louis Rams (2000), Baltimore Ravens (2001), New England Patriots (2002, 2004, 2005, 2015, 2017, 2019), Tampa Bay Buccaneers (2003), Pittsburgh Steelers (2006, 2009), Indianapolis Colts (2007), Seattle Seahawks (2014), Kansas City Chiefs (2020, 2022, 2023), Los Angeles Rams (2022)
1 team won 7 Championships (with Brady)
2 teams won 4 (both with multiple QBs)
2 teams won 3 (with Mahomes or Aikman)
Sure the last 10+ have NOT been fun for us...
And I still DOUBT Daboll is "the guy"...but I admit I may be wrong because once upon a time many thought Coughlin wasn't either...and we went through MANY bad coaches before him...yet Wellington Mara stayed patient...even after making mistakes...
Many teams (Chiefs, Steelers, etc.) have some REAL good owners...and they also make mistakes.
Here's to hoping learning from mistakes and patience (John Mara's this time) pays off again...
Go Giants!
Excellent post :ok:
Quote from: katkavage on April 28, 2025, 07:08:25 AMI'm old enough to remember when we all got excited with off season moves only to get crushed as fans once the real games began. If I haven't learned my lesson at my age, shame on me.
You don't have to be "old enough". If you got excited in any of the past 10+ offseasons, you had your hopes crushed more often than not.
I have been wondering what is it about this offseason that makes it different from the others. :hmm:
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 28, 2025, 08:34:40 AMYou don't have to be "old enough". If you got excited in any of the past 10+ offseasons, you had your hopes crushed more often than not.
I have been wondering what is it about this offseason that makes it different from the others. :hmm:
The tone of the board regarding the draft, as I can tell, has been:
1 - Do not mortgage the future for a QB
2 - Do not trade up/force/reach for a QB
3 - Do not pick Shedeur Sanders
4 - Carter is who most wanted at 3
5 - Hope Dart is available when the Giants pick again
People tend to be more satisfied when they get what they want. I don't think there is a person on this site who would give Schoen anything less than an 'A' for this offseason.
Quote from: T200 on April 28, 2025, 08:44:56 AMThe tone of the board regarding the draft, as I can tell, has been:
1 - Do not mortgage the future for a QB
2 - Do not trade up/force/reach for a QB
3 - Do not pick Shedeur Sanders
4 - Carter is who most wanted at 3
5 - Hope Dart is available when the Giants pick again
People tend to be more satisfied when they get what they want. I don't think there is a person on this site who would give Schoen anything less than an 'A' for this offseason.
That would explain why people may be feeling better, but I am not sure how much. "They did what I wanted them to do" is sound reasoning. None of us are GMs or qualified to be GMs.
Plus, in terms of plans, so many are pointing to building a great defense. Yet, the reality is this is play 3 (give or take)
At Quarterback
Plan 1- Trade away draft capital and sign Stafford to a contract that took up much of the team's 2025 cap space
Plan 2- Sign Rodgers and use more cap space on a QB than they ultimately did
Plan 3- Sign Wilson (and Winston)
In free agency
Plan 1- Spend money upgrading the guard position (Daboll confirmed this)
Plan 2- Fail to land a guard so focus on defensive players (again Daboll confirmed)
So are we really thinking backup plans are going to turn this thing around? I am not saying it won't. I will say if they do, then I think it's proof that of the old saying- Better lucky, than good ;)
Quote from: MightyGiants on April 28, 2025, 08:50:40 AMThat would explain why people may be feeling better, but I am not sure how much. "They did what I wanted them to do" is sound reasoning. None of us are GMs or qualified to be GMs.
Plus, in terms of plans, so many are pointing to building a great defense. Yet, the reality is this is play 3 (give or take)
At Quarterback
Plan 1- Trade away draft capital and sign Stafford to a contract that took up much of the team's 2025 cap space
Plan 2- Sign Rodgers and use more cap space on a QB than they ultimately did
Plan 3- Sign Wilson (and Winston)
In free agency
Plan 1- Spend money upgrading the guard position (Daboll confirmed this)
Plan 2- Fail to land a guard so focus on defensive players (again Daboll confirmed)
So are we really thinking backup plans are going to turn this thing around? I am not saying it won't. I will say if they do, then I think it's proof that of the old saying- Better lucky, than good ;)
I am a firm believer in the adage of not putting all of the eggs in one basket. Any successful organization doesn't have just one plan, especially when there are uncontrollable factors that can and will have a bearing on that plan. Having contingency/backup/alternate plans increases the chances of success.
Yes, luck (good and bad) is certainly a factor that cannot be planned for but can be accounted for in case things fall a certain way. I can't help but think that, if the rumors about the Rams wanting Dart are true, Schoen was already talking to Houston, considering how fast the trade was announced.
Quote from: T200 on April 28, 2025, 08:59:50 AMI am a firm believer in the adage of not putting all of the eggs in one basket. Any successful organization doesn't have just one plan, especially when there are uncontrollable factors that can and will have a bearing on that plan. Having contingency/backup/alternate plans increases the chances of success.
Yes, luck (good and bad) is certainly a factor that cannot be planned for but can be accounted for in case things fall a certain way. I can't help but think that, if the rumors about the Rams wanting Dart are true, Schoen was already talking to Houston, considering how fast the trade was announced.
Todd McShay who got more claims about the draft right than he did wrong, said it was all but certain the Rams wanted Dart.
Quote from: Jclayton92 on April 27, 2025, 11:33:15 AMYou save that for year 2 and 3 if Dart hits, you don't go all in before you see what you have in Dart. If Dart hits then you do go all in.
Neither are long term commitments so I would be absolutely fine with a two year deal for either Cooper or Allen. Sportract has Cooper as a 2 year 28Mill deal and Allen as a 2 year 22.2 million dollar deal. You can structure year 1 to be a hit of around 8 million. And cap is scheduled to go up 10% next year with Wilsons 10Mill coming off
Quote from: Uncle Mickey on April 29, 2025, 10:30:38 AMNeither are long term commitments so I would be absolutely fine with a two year deal for either Cooper or Allen. Sportract has Cooper as a 2 year 28Mill deal and Allen as a 2 year 22.2 million dollar deal. You can structure year 1 to be a hit of around 8 million. And cap is scheduled to go up 10% next year with Wilsons 10Mill coming off
There no way on planet earth I'm paying 14 million or 11 million a year for those guys. That's absolutely ridiculous.