Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 11:13:59 AMWe agree to disagree. Let's leave it at that.

I'm rooting for him to be an All-Pro. Would love nothing more. Stats can be construed many ways as Ed pointed out regarding Jones vs Trevor.

Rooting-  the act of cheering on or supporting a person or team

I would suggest you are more "challenging" Jones.  You would like him to do well, but you are determined not to give him the benefit of the doubt.  As you have repeatedly said, you are challenging him to prove you wrong (which you have made a very high bar).

As for stats, there are many ways to be construed, but the reality is there is usually only one that is correct or at least most accurate.  You mentioned Ed and the stats comparing DJ with Lawerence.  I hope you saw my post where I drilled down and showed the most accurate picture possible.  Stats can be powerful tools to help us better learn and understand situations, or they can be used selectively to create false impressions.  We should all strive for the former rather than the latter

Still, as you said, we can agree to disagree. You have your opinions, and I have mine.  It's okay if they don't align. 

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 10:45:44 AMThe head coach is fighting for his job what the heck would u expect him to say?...and further it is a fact that our backups played better than Jones. Even beat the Eagles! Those are undisputed facts.

This was a private conversation between Bob Papa and Brian Daboll.  It wasn't a press conference or something where Daboll needed to stretch the truth or lie to try and protect his job.  I will share this with you.  I presented you with evidence that should be used to evaluate Daniel Jones.  Instead of taking that evidence and using it to evaluate, you went out of your way to dismiss it.   Not only did you dismiss it, you scrambled to find something negative to say about Jones.   Even the "fact" you added, was incomplete since you failed to consider the different conditions the three QBs played under.  If you are going to look at QB performance, how could you not put it in context?  Here is but one very important context to consider-  How quickly and how often did each of the QBs face pressure





One look at the chart, and I can't see how you could make the claim that it was a fact that the backups played better than Jones.  Jones was pressured much faster and more often than the backups.  So what exactly does your "fact" prove other than that a quarterback who is heavily and quickly pressured will struggle 100% of the time?

Look, I don't know how DJ's career with the Giants will eventually play out.  I am not a fortune teller, and there are far too many variables (both with Jones and the team), but I think, as fans, we should try to be fair and open-minded in our assessments of the man.  It certainly doesn't cost us anything to do so, and considering how hard the guy works for the team and for us, it seems it's the least we can do.

Quote from: Philosophers on June 14, 2024, 10:19:11 AMDoes anyone notice anything different about how they are being run?  Curious since many thought last season's preseason camp was not intense enough and did not settle on starters early enough to get them reps together.

The only notable change I heard about is that in 2023, they didn't run any 11 11 drills.  This year, they ran quite a bit of 11 on 11.  Since there is no contact in OTAs and minicamp intensity isn't something that can be properly judged

Quote from: Ed Vette on June 14, 2024, 08:04:52 AMI see the narrative is that Jones and Lawrence have similar stats. Toss out TL's first season in a dysfunctional organization and Jones 2023 injury season and compare their most recent full seasons.

I guess that really leaves the 2022 season (if one is going to compare non-dysfunctional seasons).  To fully qualify both DJ and Lawerence had a dip from the 2022 highs (although Lawerence's QBR remained the same and his average yards per throw ticked up .1 yards)

First support (per PFF):

Pass Blocking

NYG- 24th  Jags- 10th

Receiving

NYG- 27th  Jags- 22nd

So in 2022

Now to the stats

Yards

DJ- 3205 passing + 708 rushing  (total 3913)  TL-   4113 + 291 rushing (total 4414)

TDs

DJ- 15 passing + 7 rushing (22 total)   TL-  25 + 5 rushing (30 total)

Yards per attempt

DJ- 6.8  TL 7.0

INTs

DJ-  5 (fumbles 2 and 1 lost) TL- 8   (fumbles 5 and 4 lost)

QB rating

DJ 92.5  TL 95.2

QBR

DJ 62.9  TL 56.1

@Trench

Quote from: Trench on June 14, 2024, 09:14:28 AMFact of matter is no matter how we slice it, Jones had so many opportunities that he missed. It was discussed here and shown in video clips ad nauseam yet still people made excuses.
 

What is actually a fact, is that the head coach has called out the claims you say are "fact" as not being accurate.  While a person can point to an open receiver, what the head coach made very clear to Bob Papa is that often the "open" receiver ran a wrong route so he is not where the QB expects him to be.

We know the head coach has faulted the armchair film analysts, but you still cite the disputed data and accuse those who listen to what the head coach has said of "making excuses."

Look, I don't consider it a badge of honor or shame to be right in one's predictions about Daniel Jones.  What is important to me is being right in assessments of him and interpreting the available information in as fair a manner as possible.  I think to do that, one really can't have a pre-determined position that can be right or wrong as that introduces possible bias in how we see things.

Two thoughts:

1)  Like many have said, Dak has always enjoyed superior talent and support.  Yet, despite that, his post-season success has been limited.

2) Considering the Cowboys don't have a replacement, if they let Dak walk it speaks volume


Finally, there is the issue raised by @DaveBrown74 (Jeff) about paying elite prices for non-elite QBs.   I think there is some merit to this argument.  However, in fairness, I think Brady and now Mahommes have skewed the data sets, making it difficult to draw conclusions.  Consider QBs most considered elite, like Josh Allen and Joe Burrow, have yet to win an SB themselves and, in the case of Allen, not even make it to the Super Bowl.  Clearly, overpaying for any position, even QB, will make it harder for a team to succeed.  Yet, I am not comfortable declaring that we have definitive data to say what does and doesn't work.  So far I can say if you want to win a Super Bowl, have Brady or Mahomes (along with elite coaching and very good team talent) 

$275 M 5 years vs. $160 M 4 years

https://x.com/the33rdteamfb/status/1801387345813323781?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

https://x.com/nfl/status/1801387136547217609?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ


https://x.com/tompelissero/status/1801387182587802065?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Quote from: Jclayton92 on June 13, 2024, 04:12:45 PMI hope they resign Phillips when healthy, he's a solid depth pieces that they never should have cut last season.

I heard somewhere that he will not be ready until November

Quote from: ralphpal1 on June 13, 2024, 03:11:44 PMCJ Shourd line was also bad
Did the WRs step up?
It seems that was but it was also having CJ as the QB
There is nothing the Giants are able to do
Let D Jones be the QB
But tell.him
You want him to throw it 7 times a game downfield.no matter what

PFF had the Texan's line ranked 15th overall by the end of the season

15. HOUSTON TEXANS
Best lineup:
LT Laremy Tunsil
LG Kendrick Green
C Jarrett Patterson
RG Shaq Mason
RT George Fant

The Texans' offensive line defied expectations to open the campaign, but injuries caught up to the group. Fourteen different offensive linemen saw snaps this season, and 10 logged at least 200 snaps.
Over the first 11 weeks of the season, Houston's front five allowed 92 total pressures and ranked fourth in pass-blocking efficiency rating.
Best player: Laremy Tunsil
While Tunsil does not necessarily stand out in run blocking, this was another elite season for him in pass protection. His 85.4 pass-blocking grade ranked second among offensive tackles during the regular season.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-final-2023-nfl-offensive-line-rankings

Interestingly the Giants managed, by the end of the season, to claw their way from dead last to 30th (Thomas returning likely helped)


30. NEW YORK GIANTS
Best lineup:
LT Andrew Thomas
LG Marcus McKethan
C John Michael Schmitz Jr.
RG Mark Glowinski
RT Tyre Phillips

Aside from Andrew Thomas, no Giants offensive lineman earned a PFF overall grade above 65.0.
Perhaps the most worrying part for Giants fans is the lack of development from second-year right tackle Evan Neal, who earned a 42.1 overall grade this season.
Best player: Andrew Thomas
Thomas was comfortably the Giants' best offensive lineman this season, and his absence was noticeable when he missed time due to injury.

This is the penalty the Falcons received for their tampering

 Atlanta will forfeit its original fifth-round pick in the 2025 NFL Draft and pay a fine of $250,000, while General Manager Terry Fontenot has been fined $50,000.

https://x.com/BigBlueVCR/status/1801273320475676849

https://x.com/JordanRaanan/status/1801273277999951894

https://x.com/BigBlueVCR/status/1801277091226272079

Quote from: Bob In PA on June 13, 2024, 09:40:47 AMI'm very surprised at the amount of attention and speculation that has surrounded this player ever since draft day. It's unusual, even for media-centric New York. Is it possible we have actually hit the jackpot and got a player who will be a major surprise?  Every year there is a story about a possible hidden gem unearthed by the Giants' scouting department, but there is something that sets this story apart from the usual rot to which we're exposed annually during the "dullest six weeks" of the football year.  Anyone else sense it? Bob

I find any claims of players "moving up" in the depth charts in OTAs to be suspect.  Daboll made it clear that OTAs are teaching camps and that jobs are not won or lost at them.