Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 04, 2024, 10:28:13 AMI would argue the O-line coach is as important as your OC and DC.  First off, they are the only position to coach 5 players on the field (6 in heavy tight-end packages), with the possible exception of a DB coach in a system that plays mostly nickel.  Second, I don't think there is a position in the league where prospects come in less prepared for NFL games than O-linemen.  Finally, with the CBA limits, coaching O-linemen has never been more challenging owing to the lack of time in pads.

I would argue that you are 100% correct. I think that's why you see guys like Stoutland and Scarnecchia being held on to like gold by their teams even when there are major coaching changes around them.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 09:59:01 AMRic,

I like your post. I will say, to me this question is akin to which tire on a car is the most important.  For an offense to be successful you need a good QB and at least one really good receiving threat (can be a WR or special TE)

Waller was supposed to be that 'de-facto' WR1 and that experiment failed miserably (along with the OL).

Quote from: Jolly Blue Giant on May 03, 2024, 09:50:15 AMIs a great WR behind an average QB better, or is a great QB with average receivers better? That is the question

I was reading through Great Blue North this morning and saw this blip and figured I'd share https://gbnreport.com/giants-report-thoughts-on-the-draft/

Maybe there's more hope than some believe 

"...in fact, there have been rumblings that head coach Brian Daboll had been lobbying for the Giants to take a WR with their first round pick, possibly even if one of the top QB was still on the board at that point. Just maybe Daboll recalls that Josh Allen, whom he has been credited with 'developing' in Buffalo really didn't emerge as a top player in the NFL until the Bills went out and acquired a true #1 receiver in Stefon Diggs. Whatever, Giants fans probably shouldn't underestimate how impactful a really good receiver can have on a team.

Indeed, in addition to the Bills' Allen, Joe Burrow didn't really take off in Cincinnati until the Bengals' selected Ja'Marr Chase, his former teammate at LSU with the 6th in 2021, while there questions being asked in Miami whether Tua Tagovcailoa was indeed a legitimate franchise QB before the Dolphins brought in Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle. And we could go and name QBs from Jaylen Hurts to Geno Smith whose careers improved dramatically once given elite receivers with which to work.

And one can also look at the Giants own history. Back in 2008, for example, they appeared to be on cruise control to a possible second straight Super Bowl appearance before Plaxico Burress shot himself – and his career – in the leg and the 11-1 Giants finished the season 1-4 and crashed out of the playoffs in the first round. They were crowned champions again in 2011 with Eli throwing to a couple of Pro Bowl receivers in Hakeem Nicks and Victor Cruz, only to have the bottom fall out the following season, which coincided with Nicks being injured and never playing at that level again. And while there has been a tendency to dismiss the impact of Odell Beckham, the reality is that Eli had the best three-year run of his career from 2014-2016 during which the Giants had a top 10 offense in both 2014 and 2015 and made the playoffs in 2016. It's also hard not to notice that the bottom really fell out for the Giants in 2017 around the time that Odell was injured. Indeed, the fact is that over the course of his career, Eli was a very good QB when he had special receivers, but was closer to ordinary when he didn't..."

Jolly, I think Daboll probably wanted Maye due to his potential great tools converting into a Justin Herbert or even Josh Allen 2.0 in the NFL. Short of that, they probably reasoned no other QB really was a clear upgrade to the upside of a DJ if he is given better tools to work with.

The points GBN made about better receivers was on point.

I think the following at least from a potential standpoint can be looked at as a positive:

1. Good offensive minded coaching staff in place,   
2. Good OL coach finally in place,   
3. Decent WR unit with an average to above WR1 in place 
4. Decent enough OL with not too many rookies with long learning curves and some depth in case of injury 

5. A capable enough RB by committee core with some pass blocking ability   ....maybe

I worry about #5 the least in a well constructed pass-heavy scheme and Schoen/Daboll didn't seem to mind losing Barkley, so I think they feel the same way.

The most unbelievable part in this equation hasn't been DJ's production as much as it has been an organization's abject failure to provide him with anywhere near a functional supports system.

I think some are looking for something to blame and have trouble seeing that the support system when you try and best apply metrics to it and it's overall ineptitude that it would rank among the league worst if not the league worst over the last five years when you account for both the coaching side and the talent side of the main things needed for a successful passing game.

Quote from: kartanoman on May 03, 2024, 05:04:23 PMWe know you're not a jokin' 'cause neither are we! 

Peace!

I mean when I look at the last 5-7 OL coaches we have had that might be the greatest joke of all time!

Most of them are not even coaching OL anymore in the NFL and many of them had very, very weak resumes to boot. That was a horrific job by this organization finding a good one. Now this Bracillo guy his resume and rep when you listen to a bunch of guys who either know him closely or have played under him are absolutely glowing. Been waiting a long time for them to get this position on the staff adequate addressed.

Quote from: AZGiantFan on May 04, 2024, 01:59:40 AMPeople forget that there was a reason his (stupid) nickname was Danny Dimes after his rookie year.

DJ was 29-34 that preseason. And some of those balls he threw were absolute dots. It also translated to the season as well. His issue as a rookie was ball security and understanding how to run without getting annihilated by NFL defenders.

He has since cleaned that part up. Now if we get him a better coached OL (possibly checked off now) and an actual half decent WR group (possibly ALSO checked off now) with a viable offensive system (that too may be checked off under Daboll/Kafka)

I think we all whatever we think of DJ all (mostly) agree that DJ has had a very subpar support system of those 3 items for his career.

I don't think it's an impossibility that he looks more like the player we have seen have some very high level games now that those things could finally be in place.

Some may disagree that is a reasonable view. Fine. Well either way there is a good chance it's going to happen this year health withstanding, him being the starting QB that is. So why not just hope for the positive outcome. Otherwise why even bother watching this season?

Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 01:50:18 PMCall me Matt, my friend.  I think we disagree on flashes of brilliance.  DJ hasn't flashed any more brilliance than Mitch Trubisky or other QBs of their ilk. I have maintained for 3+ years that DJ, like virtually all NFL starters, will benefit from improved supporting talent. However, in 60 games, I have yet to witness any element of his game that gives me any confidence he's a championship-caliber QB. IMO, it's very obvious that he is what he is, and has always been.

Again, I really appreciate your post.  Just because we don't agree on this one subject, I look forward to engaging with you on areas we agree.

Thanks Matt, I see some really really pretty balls come off of that arm. Throws with zip, throws on the run , in tight windows etc. Is he perfect? Absolutley not! But he is absolutely capable of making high level NFL QB plays with his arm and his legs. I truly think it's there. The hope is the consistency part increases with WRs who beat their defenders more consistently and a properly coached OL that more consistently protects than be a free for all turnstile right to the QB.

I think we DO agree that the support system around him has a strong chance to be significantly better. If we are in agreement there then we probably can both agree this year will be a 'cementer' either way. Either DJ balls out or he continues his inconsistency and the 'excuse' of no-talent or proper support around him is gone.

Quote from: 4 Aces on May 03, 2024, 12:31:23 PMLike the offense as a whole, I'm willing to give him a mulligan for last year.

The entire year, from the start of camp, was a calamity.

Sometimes a team just has a "bad year". What can you say when, in less than 20 days, you lose Darren Waller, Andrew Thomas and Saquon Barkley? I realize there's not a lot of patiences for that given the larger picture/10+ years of futility.

As for Neal - he got a concussion that lasted a while (I was disappointed with missed practices vs. Hutchinson), then more injuries. If you watch some of the film breakdowns by knowledgable OL people (like Skinner on Talkin Giants) - it appears he started settling down and was showing improvement over year 1. (Trending in the right direction.)

I think there's reasons to be optimistic and pessimistic, and I agree with the above comment if he struggles early again, you've got to pull the plug. The goal isn't Evan Neal at RT, the goal is to win football games.

The other performance driver is Schmitz. Quite frankly, it's tough not to be underwhelmed by his play last year considering the hype. He does things well, but looked like a liability in other areas and his play declined as the year went. For me, it was shades of Weston Richburg just never quite making it. Big year for him, to prove he can get this thing turned around.

Not one young player developed under Booby.

I'm gonna wait to see what Brill-o- Pad does cleaning the techniques of this OL especially the young'ins'

I keep saying this but Brillo might have been the most important acquisition of the off-season. And I'm not a jokin' 

Quote from: kingm56 on May 03, 2024, 11:31:08 AMUncle Mickey,
I absolutely love your posts and appreciate your perspective...you have added a lot of value to this board; however, in this situation, I fundamentally disagree with you.  We have discussed this premise ad nauseam over the last 2 years; when said subject arises, I ask posters to cite just three veteran QBs over the last 3 decades that significantly improved with an elite QB and/or OL.   For DJs situation, in the last 40 years, I cannot think of a single example of a player who played 60+ games that meets your description.  There are examples of very young QBs who benefited from elite WR/OL play, but we should avoid viewing those improvements in a vacuum. For example, on average, QBs make significant leaps between their 2d and 3d seasons; thus, how much of Josh Allen's improvement was due to Diggs vice the organic evolution of a young QB? I am not going to pretend Diggs did not help, but he was hardly the sole reason for Allen's improvement.  In addition, I bet Allen will continue to be good without Diggs, which reinforces the notion he had the goods to begin with, so to speak.   

The only viable examples cited over the last few years are Alex Smith and Geno Smith; however, the former was 'fired' twice after said 'improvement', which begs the question how much did he really improve? Plus, Smith emergence was more about finally staying healthy than being paired with an elite WR.  As @Jess highlighted in a different thread, his per game average was consistent after his second season.  Geno Smith enjoyed just 23 starts before being replaced; from his 25th start on, his per game averages were consistent, including his one start with our Giants.

Talking Heads yap about this premise all the time; however, the data simply doesn't support this notion for vetern QBs.  I'm not saying an Elite OL/WR won't help, but will it fundamentally alter the QBs trajectory (i.e. make them into a championship QB)?  Am I missing a veteran QB who evolved into the player you described? 

Thanks King! I appreciate all the varying opinions here on the matter. As long as folks make arguments that have some level of substantiation to it, I'm cool with it.


The way I see it is no two QB situations are exactly alike. And the level of ineptitude that DJ has had at OL coaching, OL talent and the WR talent is pretty much unprecedented in my 40 some odd years watching Giant football. With that said, I can draw at least a bit of correlation when I see a cat like Tua or Josh Allen or Geno or when you see a guy like Baker Mayfield get some OL protection and go from not really having a top WR1 to having one and all of a sudden they go from kinda mediocre to franchise looking QBs. Its not a perfect analogy mind you, but there is enough similarity (at least in my perspective) to where I have hope for DJ in a better situation. It's not like none of us have never seen flashes of brilliance from him. Everyone of us has. The kid has thrown some absolute laser throws that crossed the 'i's and that dotted the 't's!

 I just don't think that's an unfair assessment for some to have even though it's taken this 'abnormally' long time to improve the offense around him.

Lastly confidence is a very interesting thing when it comes to a QB. Let's see what a significantly better coached OL combined with a hopefully no doubter elite WR1 in Nabers , a 2nd year Hyatt, a 3rd year Wan'Dale do for DJ.

I think we all can at least agree the support system has a chance to be significantly better in numerous areas for DJ this year.

Quote from: sxdxca38 on May 02, 2024, 07:46:00 PMI agree with that, and if Neal begins to struggle, I think you can switch Eluemunor and Neals positions on the line.

This does seem to be the most likely scenario.

Heck no and this is coming from someone that thinks ALt will be great.

At some point you gotta coach up what you have. Brillo pad will wipe the stink of Bobby Johnsons coaching off of our poor lineman    One of Neal or Eluemenor play RT the other RG. Runyon is a plus pass blocking LG, Thomas is Thomas, JMS was supposedly the best OC in last year's draft and smart. I'm fine with what we got NOW that we have what seems to be a top notch OL coach in place.

Quote from: MightyGiants on May 03, 2024, 07:59:39 AMBy all reports, the Giants made a strong effort to trade up to draft Maye but that simply wasn't possible because the Pats wanted him as their quarterback.

So here is my question.

Are you upset because:

A) the Giants didn't ignore their board and drafted one of the lesser-graded QBs on their board (in other words, they should have "reached" for a QB)

B) You disagree with the Giants' grades they had on the remaining 3 QBs, at least one of them had a grade that justified drafting them 6th overall (passing on a blue chip prospect like Nabers)

C) Neither A nor B, you are just unhappy with the circumstances (no "mistakes" made) that had the Giants come out of the draft without a new QB

Mighty, it's a great question.

Kinda C for me.

I suspect the Giants had a franchise grade on 2 or 3 of the top 3 guys. Maye was the 'gettable' one. I saw greatness and 'arm arrogance' when watching his film. He is the only guy that was 'gettable' that could have been a clear upgrade over the upside of Jones. But the price was high. Short of that, our next best scenario would be Jones reaches his upside because we got the WR1 instead and also potentially fixed the OL with a coach and a couple veteran OL. So while disappointed, recognize it might be a blessing in disguise IF Jones becomes the guy seen in flashes more consistently with the better support around him.

Quote from: BluesCruz on May 03, 2024, 09:02:15 AMJones is the "Mechanical Man". WYSG.  What you see is what you are going to get .... now minus the running with the bad neck and knee

Team fixes OL or gets a dominant WR or both. Incumbent QB's confidence and production (if the QB is truly talented) suddenly goes up and is more consistent. Seen this rodeo play out too many times to assume our QB stinks just yet.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on May 02, 2024, 09:30:04 PMLock has been in the NFL for four years (28 games), and Daniel Jones has been the Giants starting QB for the last five seasons.

When would there be a point in judging them?

Hi Dave!

When the Giants offense has something resembling an offensive line that isn't bottom 20% of the entire league in time to pressure and pressure consistency statistics and actually has something resembling a true top WR option.

That should be this year. That was Giants priority one this offseason. They brought in 5 veteran OL. Five. No rookie steep learning curve. They targeted and landed what seems to be an excellent OL coach. Someone who is a few tiers above the likes of Solari, Hunter, Columbo , Gugliemo ,Sale and the venerable Booby Johnson. Most those guys aren't even currently OL coaches or are not highly esteemed at all.

Spent a top 6 pick on a WR who probably ranks pretty close to some of the better blue chip WR to come out in the last 10 years and should be a day 1 high level starter.

Do they have this finally figured out. It seems so.

I like Tommy. I do. However Tommy doesn't have nearly the upside of Jones. Jones high level plays be it throws or runs are higher than any high level throws of anyone on the team. Everyone of us , though we have short memory, have seen numerous 'wow' plays from Daniel. That is fact. It is evident when watching the top plays of each QB on the team he ca make the rare and special throws. The question is is DJ's ability to process the field seem compromised because he is just not great in this area or is it more due to a historically bad offensive line combined with well below average WRs. 

This is what this year should bear out for us. I am truly hoping it's the latter. Because if so, we would have that guy who has had made some very high level plays in his career playing at that high level a lot more consistently with the better support system around him.