Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Bob In PA on November 03, 2023, 10:39:46 AMRich: As is mostly the case, I disagree with Lombardi.  Which would you rather have?

(1) A lousy OL with a great QB who must run for his life most of the time and cannot count on a decent run-game to at least make the opponent honor his run-fakes, in which case you need an offensive line (THREE TO FIVE MORE DECENT PLAYERS) before you get your QB killed.  -or-

(2) A solid OL that opens holes for the run-game but which can't stop the defense from putting eight men on the LOS because the QB is useless to the passing attack, so nobody fears that he might do damage (in which case you need ONE GOOD OR GREAT PLAYER).

Bob

I think Joe Burrow and the Bengals answer your question. The problem for me is that QBs as great as Burrow are so rare they almost break the rules.  If the Giants go QB in the next draft and find another Burrow, draft him and we'll work on the line later. We'll figure out what to do with Jones

Bill Parcell's 1st year as a HC was a 3 win season and much of that record was due to his coaching.  The team he inherited was ascending and borderline playoff ready. Not firing Parcells turned out to be the right move (although George Young may have had different thoughts at that time)

Last year, people were very worried that Kafka was leaving for a HC job and we were lucky he didn't get one.  Now, I'm reading this stuff.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 01, 2023, 06:48:05 PMI was fine with the trade at the time and still am. I don't recall anyone on the board being opposed at the time. It was a calculated risk and a fair price given the risk. He has already played 8 out of 8 games, which is much better than I can say for a lot of people on this team, including people we may apparently be bringing back next year despite not having to. His production has not been exceptional, but it hasn't been bad either. When I look at the reasons why this team has been so bad, he's not really on the list as far as I am concerned.

I didn't mean to say that I was against the trade.  I thought we got a playmaker at a relatively cheap price but that was looking at the team as a potential playoff team.  Clearly, that was misguided.  But, even before the OL injuries, the Giants would have been better off using the 100th pick onns Bellinger type TE.  It's been really difficult or worse finding competent OL to strengthen the line.  Getting good blocking TEs would help the cause

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on November 01, 2023, 05:22:30 PMWaller played a total of 20 games between 2021 and 2022. So far, he has played all eight with us. If he misses a total of four games for us (plays 13), given realistic expectations and given the trade cost, I would say we came out ahead of expectations with him.

We knew the risks when we signed up for this player, we accepted them, and we deemed the price (100th pick in the draft) to be sufficiently discounting these risks. The idea that we would get the 2019 version of Waller for 16-17 games was never realistic. He is what he is at this point. Hence the price. Nobody should be surprised or feel like we're unlucky. This was all in the price.

In retrospect, we would have been better off not making the trade.  Before the trade, I was thinking that it would be great to get another TE like Bellinger, a decent pass catcher who can block.  2 young TEs like that would be great.  Last years draft was a strong TE draft.  It was doable

I had this thought about Zack Martin of the Cowboys.  I'm pretty sure he played OT at Notre Dame but the Cowboys immediately put him in at RG where he has been outstanding.  I thought I remember reading when their plan was to even move him to OT but he was so good inside that they left him at OG.  With Neal, his rookie season was so bad at OT that I wonder if it was wishful thinking on the part of the team that he could improve to a level that would be called adequate.  I'm guessing moving him inside now is not possible but to my untrained eye, it looks like his shortcomings on the outside could be resolved if he played OG.  At least I hope so because they're not giving up on Neal even after a subpar season.  I also don't see them drafting another OT with their higher premium picks because it's not likely another draftee would,look more promising than Neal looked coming out and they have needs all over the team.  I have no problem with a veteran like Pugh starting at RT; I thought Remmers was ok a few years ago.  My line could be Thomas - Bredeson- Schmidt- Neal - Pugh.  Nothing to write how about but a lot better than what we've seen and if Neal is ok at RG, who knows?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 31, 2023, 08:34:03 AMThe narrative that seems to have been confirmed by the Giants is that DJ saw his spine specialist before the game and was cleared for contact.  The Giants couldn't activate him for the game because they designated him "out" Friday.   

Now I can understand the reluctance to play DJ on Sunday.  The Jets defense is fierce, and it was supposed to be rainy, and DJ hadn't practiced with the offense for three weeks (he was taking scout team snaps when he was cleared to practice with no contact).

Still, when Tyrod got hurt (which came as a surprise to no one), DJ, without practice with the offense, would have been a superior option to DeVito, whom the coaches didn't trust to pass the ball.   Had DJ come in for Taylor, the odds of winning the game would have been substantially higher.

I don't have a problem with not using Jones against the Jets pass rush adding on the weather issues.  My big problem is why do you have DeVito as your backup to an oft injured QB and they are afraid to let him throw the ball at all.  How is a QB on the field if there's no plan to throw?  Second, if they have the QB who they won't let throw, why not use the wildcat exclusively and at least get an extra blocker on there? 

My other point regarding this mess here is the roster construction from the start of the season.  You have an OL that at best would not be an asset even without injuries.  How do you keep just 1 TE who can block?  And, when they cut Cager who does not block, how do they not replace him with a TE who can help an inept OL with blocking?  For years, with a pathetic OL, they bring in TEs who cannot help protect the QB until Bellinger.  Do you think another TE who can block like him would have helped more than lots of guys on the roster?  And, when the OL gets decimated by injuries, isn't the need for blocking greater but they double down in the wrong direction.

There are probably a few reasons for his decline.  I think losing his LT is the biggest reason and a major factor.  Not trusting coverage against your blind spot no doubt contributes to jitters.  But also, success last year was predicated on dumbing down the offense.  This year, with more receiver talent, there was more pressure which he hasn't stepped up to but see 1 above.  Still, his new contract also increases the expectations

Still don't get how they let Crowder go and kept Shep.  I assumed they had a plan to use Shep extensively but clearly that was wrong.  I know he has a guaranteed contract but he seems to have become an expensive towel waver while Crowder would have been a serviceable WR who also would have been a reliable punt returner.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 30, 2023, 05:16:33 PMFully agreed.

They're already playing well, and, as we know, this is a position with a learning curve. They will (very likely) only get materially better in the next year or two.

Not sure at all about Hawkins.  He's had periods where he seemed allergic to tackling.  I'm almost ready to give up on Robinson who I thought had serious potential

Quote from: AZGiantFan on October 30, 2023, 06:54:27 PMFunny how this line of defense is derided as making excuses when applied to Daniel Jones.

Maybe the difference between making $40 million plus and about $12 million. 

I can't stand the NCAA.  Theres an old joke about them.  They were so angry at Univ of Kentucky that they suspended Louisville.  It would surprise me if they really went after Michigan

Thank you MG.  Has there been any word on the CB who has been injured since last year?   The guy who was a 3rd round pick

LT revolutionized his position on the outside.  There were great pass rushers before him, for example, Deacon Jones.  But, he played in a 4-3 which was the predominant structure before LT.  I wouldn't say Butkus was a Ray Lewis type.  Butkus was the premier middle LB of his day and he hit like a freight train.  Lewis was far better in pass coverage and I would say was more Butkus light against the run.   During Butkus' time, I can't think of many, or any, big TEs that were great receivers.  It almost seems like a different position.

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 05, 2023, 01:15:18 PMSeems you missed the "in retrospect" portion of what I wrote.  Obviously this is hindsight...that's exactly the point.  In the moment, sure they can easily be sucked into believing they're the best GM/Coach combo in the history of football and sure they can turn this ship around in one season.  But as it turns out the original plan of 2024 was probably a little more prudent given the results that we've seen.

It would have been a tough pill to swallow after a playoff win to let Jones and Barkley walk.  There are a large number of fans who'd have lost their collective minds over doing something like that.  What I'm saying is, they should have done it anyway.  Because it would have been the best move for the future of the team even if it wasn't the best move for the 2023 Giants chances of success.  Although after what we've seen maybe it would have been that too.

You say the move was to draft Herbert...which is a bit of monday morning QB in it of itself, no?  But also something I agree with and stated at the time.  Although I was advocating they not draft Jones at all and just simply wait a year when Herbert/Tua would both be coming out and that was before Joe Burrow burst on the scene.  Jones' year was an awful year for QB.  So naturally the smartest guy in the room, David football Gettleman, decided that was the time to take one. 

Having said that, once you draft Jones you can't trade him the very next season unless he starts showing up to work without pants on or something.  Certainly not based on play or the fact that significantly better QBs are available the following season.  You'd look like the dope we all know Gettleman to be for not waiting and well know he'd never stand for that.

I know you weren't suggesting that they burn it down.  I think Schoen couldnt do it even if he believed it was the right thing to do.  The team was a victim of its success last year and success limited his moves this year.

I also keep coming back to drafting Jones at 6 convinced that somebody suckered Gettleman into drafting Jones too early.  That said, I believe that there are competent GMs who would have acknowledged the mistake with Jones prevented them from getting Herbert.  It would have required lots of courage but for me it was the move even if Jones steps up his game.