Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: kingm56 on February 19, 2024, 10:17:13 PMDJ was sacked 11 times in the week 4 Seattle game; in fact, most pundits made the exact opposite point you're making here.  While you're highlighting 3 sacks, there were 8 others to consider.  BBH own post game discussion mimicked the pundits, where we surmised DJ was responsible for at least 6 sacks in that game.

"A number of those sacks were on him," Esiason said on WFAN on Tuesday. "They're not all on the offensive line. He has to react accordingly when those blitzes start happening and guys come free. That's the troubling part for me."

"Dan Orlovsky claims only 4/11 sacks against the Seahawks were on the Giants OL and breaks down Daniel Jones' QB mistakes"

The Seattle game precisely highlight DJ's biggest fallacies; he doesn't read the field well, nor is he capable of making anticipatory throws through tight windows. To be clear, I'm not suggesting his line is even adequate; I also believe his play will improve when/if surrounded by more skilled players. However, even with an average-to-above-average OL, the data suggest his ceiling is an average-to-slightly above average QB. It's hard to be a top 10 passing QB with his limitations. 

Do you agree with the pundits? 

Actually, this is incorrect and here is why.

A) DJ was not sacked 11 times but 10 times in that game, one of those sacks was on Paris Campbell.

B) Second, using pundits like Dan Orlovsky and Boomer Esiason, is not doing your own research to see if these things are true. This is what is known as the "appeal to authority" and this is a logical fallacy. Just because a former player says something doesn't make it true.

And this is why I completely disagree with your statements, with regards to this game, and now I shall explain why.

You see I watched the game, the entire game, and I saw all 10 sacks and how they were attributed. Would you like to know how they came about? and the truth? Outside of one sack the other nine were all on the offensive line, and it was brutal.

Let me further elucidate.

Since you like to use pundits, I will now quote from the announcers who were actually at the game - Troy Aikman and Joe Buck -

Troy Aikman said from the opening snap that "his offensive line has struggled through three games", do you agree with him or no?

Joe Buck said in the 3rd quarter after DJ had been sacked six times, he said "There is just no time for Jones".

Joe Buck says again, "as he's ready to throw he's got 3 players in his face".

4th Quarter he's sacked for the 7th time, and Joe Buck says again, "there is just no chance for Daniel Jones."

4th Quarter again, Joe Buck says, "Jones has absolutely no time" as he's sacked for the 8th time.

OT Ezudu was run right by the DE, then Aikman says that is eight sacks on the night, this is crazy. Neither Buck nor Aikman blamed Jones, they defended him, saying he is one tough dude, and realized his O line was absolute garbage.

As Jones was sacked for the 9th time in the 4th quarter, he has absolutely no time.

Aikman begins to say "why is DJ still in the ball game?"

On his 10th sack he has absolutely no time, LT was beat again like a drum.

On his 11th sack the LT was beat badly again, keep in mind Andrew Thomas was not the starting LT.

So, since you like to quote pundits, were Aikman and Buck lying? or were they telling the truth? Please tell us all?

So once again if you want to prove me wrong, then you can go ahead and buy NFL Premium Plus like I have, and you can watch the condensed game in just 30 minutes. I did, so go ahead and do it, and show me and all of us why I am wrong?

I'll wait....

Quote from: Ed Vette on February 19, 2024, 07:10:49 PMWhat was sick about that opening game against Dallas, was that there was all this hope and enthusiasm as the first drive of the game saw the Giants moving the ball with ease, driven off of Barkley and Jones legs. Third and two at the Dallas 8 yard line and then the Football gods smite the Giants. A false start and then a bad snap and it's time to bring on the FG Unit. And then the killer. A blocked punt returned for a TD.

I remember thinking, this season isn't going to go the way it did last year.

Ed and to all,

I've noticed that you watched the Dallas game again just like I did, so this may be of some interest to you.

Here are the highlights of the Seahawks game from week 4, and I wanted you and anyone else who may be interested to see three of the sacks DJ takes in that game, so they can see the pressure he was under.

The time stamps to see them are at the 1:50 mark, 2:41 mark, and finally 7:07 mark.

He was sacked a total of six times in that game, let me know what you think? and if the O line bears any responsibility for his performance?

Video down below

Quote from: MightyGiants on February 19, 2024, 10:08:40 AMThat isn't exactly a "fact"; in fact, it's not even effectively true.



CINO
@sjs0816
Tyrod & Devito had a completely different Offensive line.
I don't know why this is hard

DJs oline for majority of his games
LT: Ezuedu LG:Lemiex/Mayfield C:Bredeson RG:McKethan RT:Neal/Mayfield

Tyrod/Devito Oline
LT:Thomas LG:Pugh C:JMS RG:Bredeson RT:Phillips

These different lines led to very different times for pressure to appear and how often pressure appeared.



https://x.com/sjs0816/status/1758581458032054504?s=20

Mighty,

This is an excellent stat, thank you for sharing.

I'd also add the competition DJ faced in the first 5 games was intense compared to Tyrod and Devito.

49ers - super bowl appearance
Cowboys - playoff team
Dolphins- playoff team
Seahawks- Tough team

That has to factor into also why he was pressured so much, going up against two of the top five defenses doesn't help.

Quote from: kartanoman on February 19, 2024, 08:32:52 AMYou've got my vote, as somewhere in there rings the tune, "Fix the damn line!"

Peace!

Kart,

Thank you so much for agreeing with me, your words are very kind and I'm so glad we agree, fix that line!

Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 07:55:55 AMYou nailed it.  Great idea.  I remember the Dallas game like it was yesterday.  It got so bad I stopped watching the game and just kept my eyes on the right side of the OL.  In so many instances, the 9 tech was not even getting touched as he came around the RT.  Even when passes were made without a sack, he was coming in so often unchecked.

No QB will play well under those conditions.  They may play slightly better than DJ but we need more than that.  We need an offense that can protect the QB, then let him throw downfield.

I am onboard with taking a QB this year only if he is going to be a projected starter within the 1st year as we need a rookie contract to utilize, however, we absolutely need a a stud WR1 and more starting help on the OL especially the right side.

I keyed in on Neal the whole season when he played.  His inability to block wide edge rushers is due to an inability to fire out at the snap count as oppose to a split second later and an inabiity to simply move faster and more efficiently.  I am not sure that can be taught.  I think it is time to move on from Neal.  Trust me that is not easy for me to say as I was banging on the drum for this kid leading up to the draft and thought this year he'd make a leap.  At a minimum, the Giants need to bring in competition for his spot, but that competition better be able to stop 9 tech edge rushers.  If Neal beats him out, it's because he was fantastic, not because the competition was bad.

Quote from: Philosophers on February 19, 2024, 07:55:55 AMYou nailed it.  Great idea.  I remember the Dallas game like it was yesterday.  It got so bad I stopped watching the game and just kept my eyes on the right side of the OL.  In so many instances, the 9 tech was not even getting touched as he came around the RT.  Even when passes were made without a sack, he was coming in so often unchecked.

No QB will play well under those conditions.  They may play slightly better than DJ but we need more than that.  We need an offense that can protect the QB, then let him throw downfield.

I am onboard with taking a QB this year only if he is going to be a projected starter within the 1st year as we need a rookie contract to utilize, however, we absolutely need a a stud WR1 and more starting help on the OL especially the right side.

I keyed in on Neal the whole season when he played.  His inability to block wide edge rushers is due to an inability to fire out at the snap count as oppose to a split second later and an inabiity to simply move faster and more efficiently.  I am not sure that can be taught.  I think it is time to move on from Neal.  Trust me that is not easy for me to say as I was banging on the drum for this kid leading up to the draft and thought this year he'd make a leap.  At a minimum, the Giants need to bring in competition for his spot, but that competition better be able to stop 9 tech edge rushers.  If Neal beats him out, it's because he was fantastic, not because the competition was bad.

Philosophers,

Thank you so much, and I am also happy we agree.

Everything you said was true, and the right side of the line was atrocious, and your points about Neal I concur.

Let's beef up the right side of that O line and then lets see what we got.

Quote from: Bob In PA on February 19, 2024, 07:35:53 AMsxd: Good post, and I agree with all of it. Bob

Ah Bob, thank you so much, I'm also glad we agree, and please hang in there

Quote from: jimc on February 19, 2024, 05:33:55 AMI'm on board.

Ah thanks for saying that, I'm glad we agree

I know many here want QB prospects Williams, Mcdaniels and Maye, and I understand, and I get it, as it would be nice get one of them, but realistically the Giants have little to no chance at any of them.

After watching the first 6 games, the O-line was being manhandled and DJ had no time and no shot. If you want to see a good example of this, go and rewatch the Seahawks game, he literally had to play perfect, ball coming out in 2 seconds or less, and even then, it would have been extremely difficult to win. This was noted by the announcers, Aikman and Buck.

The first five out of six opponents were:
 
A) Cowboys - #5 defense
B) 49ers - #3 defense
C) Seahawks
D) Dolphins
E) Bills - #4 defense (Tyrod started)

The team was 1-5 at this point, as they faced a buzzsaw the first 6 games of the season. DJ throws a good ball, has a strong arm, and is accurate enough to win with.

And for those saying Tyrod was better, he put up a whopping 9 points against the Bills defense, and 14 points against the terrible 4-13 Commanders the following week, so he isn't the long-term answer either.

I also do not think panicking and picking a new QB at 6 just because you need one is the right answer either, that just makes things worse, especially if you get it wrong.

So here is my recommendation, feel free to agree or disagree with this, but this is what I would do.

With the first 3 picks use them on a #1 WR and beef up the O line with the other two picks.

Since DJ is already under contract for the 2024 season, let him play it out and see what he can do when you give him more time, so he can throw some deeper passes. You may actually be surprised that the DJ of 2022 comes back, and him and the team performs well next season, but let's just see.

If they are terrible again, then at that point you can unload the DJ contract, and then look at new QB's in the following seasons 2025-2026 without having to give away the farm for one of them.

Feel free to agree or disagree, but that is what I would do, curious your thoughts?

 

What I also consider QB hell, is when you know you need to move on from somebody, but your team continues to win meaningless games.

Now instead of having a top one or two draft pick, your now sitting with a top 6 pick and have to give up the farm to get your guy, if you're even allowed to make the trade.

QB hell

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 31, 2023, 11:48:54 AMMaybe people will lay off the kid a little bit now?  Nahhhhhh

Also seeing Josh Allen on that list knowing he should have been the pick instead of Jones that year is bit of a punch to the gut.

Gmo,

I remember at that time, you and I were both making the push for Josh Allen to be drafted, but sadly the Giants went in another direction

Kayvon is on pace for 18 sacks this year,  that is huge.

Also Micah Parsons currently only has 6, while Kayvon has 8.5.

The Giants drafted a good player

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 04, 2023, 05:51:54 PMHere is a non-paywall

https://x.com/snygiants/status/1709684397702627602?s=46&t=1vcQIN8GqF5J2oLdxEVEJQ

Two things,

A) The mere fact that he is saying he doesn't care what sheep think, is telling me he absolutely does care, that's why he is saying it.

B) As many of you have already stated, the sheep, which consists of millions of Giant fans are paying your salary. All it takes is for the sheep to stop going to your games, and guess what? You won't be making any money, and you'll have to start making cheeseburgers and hot dogs like the rest of us.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on October 01, 2023, 04:01:31 PMSo today Houston had both of their starting tackles out, including perennial pro bowl stud left tackle Laremy Tunsil. They also had their starting left guard Shaq Mason out. The line was in absolute shambles today, and they were going up an elite Steeler pass rush.

Those are devastating injuries and an impossible situation, right? I mean we're singing the woe is me song about missing just Andrew Thomas against a bad defense. These guys are missing their equivalent Andrew Thomas plus two other O line starters, and they're up against TJ Watt and company. They must have had no chance on offense today, right?

Well, apparently they did have a chance. They lit it up on offense. Since bad teams apparently have no chance if any key players are injured, can someone please explain to me how a rookie QB (CJ Stroud) was able to throw for over 300 yards today on over 10 YPA, two TDs, no picks, and a rating around 111? I'm struggling to understand it given that their line is in complete shambles. Did Stroud just get freakishly lucky somehow given normally this sort of thing is impossible?

Hi Dave,

I'd like to add a couple of expressions here.

First, it's quite early but Stroud has looked good, no question.

Second, in defense of DJ, three out of four of his interceptions, the balls were placed perfectly hitting Waller and Barkley right in their hands, and they popped it up straight in the air, all three were intercepted.

This is why Stroud has had zero interceptions and DJ already has four.

If Strouds passes were popped up in the air he would have a few picks as well.

Once again, not trying to make this a DJ vs Stroud topic as Stroud may eventually prove to be the better player, but at least answering a part of the reason why.

Okay I'm off to work, ttyl.

Quote from: True Blue on September 30, 2023, 09:38:14 AMNot trying to stir a debate, moreso curious how you both think Love wouldn't help, I feel he was one of our best defenders last year.

To answer the question, I'd have signed Love and passed on Campbell in hindsight. Shame cause I was excited to have him initially

Love had a good year last year, but he's not doing well this year, and in 2021 and 2020 he was pretty bad.

All in all, he's just a "jag", and maybe he'd help a little on d, but this teams pass rush is abysmal, and he won't be able to cover that up in my opinion.

Quote from: MightyGiants on September 30, 2023, 07:58:05 AMI think this is an interesting topic.  Although, with the problems the Giants have, I don't think either player makes a difference.

Yeah, I couldn't have said it better myself. Both Slayton and Love are negligible to the outcome of the Giants season.