Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2023, 08:48:47 PMIf it's all about the coaching and not about the players, why were some of our lines amazing under Flaherty and why were some bad? Why was the Cowboys line awesome under Colombo, and then when he came here our line still sucked? Neither of those indisputable facts line up with what you're saying.

Yup. On the one hand, we're seeing Will Hernandez and Jon Feliciano playing better on other teams. On the other hand, the Giants hired Colombo to coach the OL right after Dallas finished #1 in total offense and their OL was ranked #4. Colombo lasted half the season before he was fired.

Whatever the formula of talent, coaching and culture is needed to produce a winner, the Giants haven't found the right mix in over a decade.

Quote from: DaveBrown74 on December 27, 2023, 07:20:54 PMThe line sucked royally in 2018 too, and he was elite that year. Same with 2019. Our line has been awful for ages.

We can pretend he hasn't declined materially as a player and blame everyone else if we want to, but we'll be in denial if we do.

Barkley is visibly slower than he was as a rookie. We all see it.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 27, 2023, 02:48:21 PMWho is saying the goal should be to have him as 30% of the offense? Or that he is irreplaceable?

You seemed to be arguing that his 27% share of the 31st ranked offense would be difficult to replace. I don't think those yards will be that difficult to replace, I don't think the offense can get much worse without Barkley, and I think it's much more likely to improve if the money Barkley likely will want is spent on other players. My apologies if I misunderstood your point about the urgency of 27% of the 31st ranked offense.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 27, 2023, 10:05:50 AMWe are talking about replacing the only plus skill player on the offense.  If it's so easy, why has this offense been terrible as long as it has?  Are the professionals missing this easy solution somehow?

What would you do specifically to not only replace those yards, but improve the offense, that doesn't include Barkley?

Point is you have to replace him and add to the equation OL, WRs and  QB. 

So who are you drafting amd signing? 

Personally I think gaining yardage in this offense being the only legit threat is extremely difficult compared to say being a cog in the Dolphins offense that has multiple weapons.

Barkley is only relevant as a franchise player for this franchise BECAUSE they are so bad on offense. The argument that he is a valuable weapon is different and in my opinion more valid than the argument that his production is irreplaceable.

We have 6 years of evidence with Barkley as the centerpiece of the offense to show it hasn't worked out. He isn't getting any better and can't be considered the centerpiece any longer. He's a complimentary player. He should be paid like a complimentary player, and play a complimentary role. If the goal is for him to account for around 30% of the offense then I think we're looking at another year ranked in the 30s in offense.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 27, 2023, 08:57:06 AMIf you would let Barkley go, what would you do to improve the offense and not only make up for the 27% of it you are losing, but actually improve the overall performance? 

It's difficult to imagine that replacing 27% of the yards on the 31st ranked offense will be that heavy a lift. We're talking about an offense that averages 263.7 yards per game. It would be a different story if we were talking about replacing 27% of Miami's 411.5 yards per game or the 49ers 404.3 yards per game. Replacing Barkley's production on this current iteration of the offense is not a huge barrier.

Quote from: Fletch on December 26, 2023, 02:13:12 PMWhat is with the Barkley hate? When the day arrives that this team is better WITHOUT Barkley and it can be proved on the field i.e. the offense isn't like a 30 something ranked passing offense, and that Barkley's run are hindering them; that is the day you get rid of Barkley.

You do not get rid of your only legit vaible threat on offense because of boredom or because of some philosophical BS that you can just start drafting players and have a pass attack like some of the better ones in the league.

You're looking for proof that the offense won't be poorly ranked without Barkley. But we have several seasons with Barkley that the offense has been ranked 30-something and we've never had an offense with Barkley ranked in the top 16. So they're paying Barkley to be an elite player when those days are obviously over. He's a good RB who is being paid like a great RB. It doesn't make sense.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on December 26, 2023, 02:13:28 PMHard to draw conclusions given only 2 starters are left from Wink's D.

This is fair but it also shows it doesn't take half a decade to rebuild a unit. This is why it's so frustrating to me that we keep talking about how many years it will take to rebuild this or that unit when other teams can rebuild and are competitive within a year or two.

Quote from: killarich on December 26, 2023, 10:04:20 AMOK ..but we still need to build pieces .... If we miss out on QB .... do we just ignore the rest of the offense simply because Jones is the QB ? I dont understand this logic....  If we could get Tyrek Hill for a draft pick do we simply say no because Jones is the QB ?

Im talking about building the team... if we dont get a QB Jones is the QB for just one more season.... you dont ignore needs because of one player

If they don't get a QB, I don't see how they're in range for Harrison. But assuming they somehow couldn't get a QB but do end up with Harrison, I think he becomes our version of Garrett Wilson, a tremendous talent who is being held back by virtue of his QBs.

I wrote about my thoughts on the rebuild and collecting pieces in another thread. Rather than rehash my thoughts I'll just copy here what I wrote there because I think continuing the Daniel Jones experiment will only keep the team running in place on the hamster wheel.

--

This team seems to be 3 years away every year and it's been that way for over a decade. Things won't change until they find a legitimate QB.

It's ironic that Geno Smith may have been that guy 6 years ago if they had given him a shot. But Gettleman believed Eli just needed another weapon and he bizarrely believed Kyle Lauletta could be the heir apparent. Not that Geno was a great prize, but maybe he would've helped this team get back to respectability.

Now, unless they luck into an elite QB through the draft, they'll continue their decade long game of whack-a-mole with the roster. Use 2 top-10 picks and a 2nd round pick on the OL, and the OL is worse than ever. Invest a top-10 pick on a pass rusher and sign Dex to a huge contract, but the defensive front is only average on a good day. Invest a first round pick on a dynamic WR, then trade him for an aging but formerly elite TE, and still no legitimate #1 target. Grant McAdoo the keys to the kingdom, 2 years later it's Shurmur, 2 years later it's Judge, 2 years later it's Daboll, 2 years later???

This is like being on a hamster wheel. Until they solve the QB position they will continue running in place without getting anywhere.

Quote from: killarich on December 26, 2023, 09:58:39 AMYou literally stated that he would be a non-factor.... I just disagree and added a question

This doesnt mean I dont think we should move on from Jones .... I just dont think Harrison becomes a Non-Factor

Yes, I think Jones is bad enough that drafting Harrison wouldn't be worth it if Jones is the QB. No, I don't think Harrison would produce to his potential with Jones under center.

Quote from: killarich on December 26, 2023, 09:55:24 AMAre you saying Harrison cant get open ?

Baffling that you made that leap smh.

Quote from: T200 on December 26, 2023, 09:30:30 AMI don't think we'd have these lack of tackling problems if we had a defensive-minded coach. Defenders want the highlight hit instead of the highlight tackle.

I think the organization (someone mentioned Mara, which I agree with) prioritizes star power above winning. The players see it and respond to it.

Quote from: T200 on December 26, 2023, 09:19:58 AMWhen defenders routinely miss tackles, that's not a talent issue. It's coaching.

To me this is a culture issue which is partly a coaching issue but when you're on your 5th HC with the same culture issues it becomes obvious that it's the organization more than the coaching.

If anyone could turn Marvin Harrison Jr into a non-factor it would be Daniel Jones. That's the last QB-WR pairing I ever want to see on the Giants.

The issues to me are in this order:

1.QB
2.Talent (particularly OL)
3. Coaching

This team seems to be 3 years away every year and it's been that way for over a decade. Things won't change until they find a legitimate QB.

It's ironic that Geno Smith may have been that guy 6 years ago if they had given him a shot. But Gettleman believed Eli just needed another weapon and he bizarrely believed Kyle Lauletta could be the heir apparent. Not that Geno was a great prize, but maybe he would've helped this team get back to respectability.

Now, unless they luck into an elite QB through the draft, they'll continue their decade long game of whack-a-mole with the roster. Use 2 top-10 picks and a 2nd round pick on the OL, and the OL is worse than ever. Invest a top-10 pick on a pass rusher and sign Dex to a huge contract, but the defensive front is only average on a good day. Invest a first round pick on a dynamic WR, then trade him for an aging but formerly elite TE, and still no legitimate #1 target. Grant McAdoo the keys to the kingdom, 2 years later it's Shurmur, 2 years later it's Judge, 2 years later it's Daboll, 2 years later???

This is like being on a hamster wheel. Until they solve the QB position they will continue running in place without getting anywhere.