Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:23:09 PMNever once said they should force a pick.

Ok, so you agree they shouldn't force a pick like they did with Jones because a QB they like better might not be there a year later.  Glad you agree with that.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:13:58 PMI agree Hyatt needs to play more. I hope the NFL was wrong about him. There is no reason for a guy like Slayton to play 90% of our snaps and Hyatt play less than 50%. We know what Slayton is - he is a JAG. He will make a play here and there, but he isnt getting us victories.

Play Hyatt and Robinson the entire game. Slayton can spell Hyatt for a play here and there. Campbell can sell hot dogs in section 105 for all I care.

Again Hyatt had received 60% of the snaps in Monday night's game.  Robinson 64% of the snaps.  So saying they played less than 50% of the snaps isn't true.  And again Campbell had the 5th most snaps of any receiver on the Giants offense Monday night.  Both Robinson and Hyatt got more snaps.  Only receiver who didn't get more snaps was Shepard.

So it's not a matter of them not getting 50% or more of the snaps.  It's a matter of them not getting the ball.

Quote from: Philosophers on October 06, 2023, 01:15:00 PMDave - the inference is that you will have success if you pick your own?  How many failed QBs were picked by their then coaching regime?

The inference is that a coach and his QB will be closer.  Is there any indication DJ and Dabs dont have a great relationship?  If they did not they would not have signed him.

DJ works hard and listens.  That's what a coach wants.  The fact he is not getting it done is not because he was not drafted by Dabs.

In companies everyone learns to work with the existing team. 

I think the point has more to do with a regime and their success being tied to a QB they didn't draft and that they shouldn't be fired for a QB they didn't draft.  Hypothetically speaking let's say the Giants end up with a top 10 pick and take a QB next spring.  What that QB becomes would likely determine the fate of Schoen's tenure (likely Daboll too).

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:05:46 PMNo I am not. You literally said the Giants should pass on a guy and draft who they wanted the next year - which is a reference to Herbert because everyone and their mom knew Gettleman was in love with him.

My point is we dont that would have happened.

No, I pointed out the Giants shouldn't force the 6th overall pick on a QB which falls in line with your original point.  Now you're saying they should force a QB pick because you don't know what will be available the following season.

So which is it should a team force a QB pick in a draft or should they be opportunistic when it presents itself showing more patience?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 01:03:23 PMOr if they cant get open consistently... or if the OL doesnt block long enough either.

See NFL teams are smart. They see all the film. If these guy were that good and getting openy that consistently..
1) they would have been re-signed or drafted earlier
2) They would be paid a lot more money

The reason why these contracts were cheap with little incentives. The reason why Waller was traded for a late 3rd. The reason why Hyatt went in the third round?

Cause NFL personnel do not see them as difference makers. It has nothing to do with Jones. It has nothing to do with the OL. They are pretty replaceable.

Now apply this logic to Daniel Jones and if he was as good as you believe wouldn't teams have been all over him before he signed his extension with the Giants.  If that's the standard we are utilizing to evaluate whether a player is good or not.

As for the receivers not being open.  As we have seen in the video review they have been open but rather than go to them Jones has gone to his check down.  And being NFL open is not the same thing as being open in the ACC.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:58:11 PMAnd what if he wasnt there? You are assuming the results would have been the same. Thats not how football works. What if we stayed with Eli one more year, and he won 2-3 more games? Now we arent in the position to take him.

Dude I just agreed with you about not picking a QB to pick a QB that you don't force picking a QB.  Now you're arguing they should force a pick because there might not be one available the following season.  Which is it?

Quote from: Gmo11 on October 06, 2023, 12:55:48 PMKinda makes me wonder if Jones had been better off sitting the entire 1st year and trying to work on the mental part of the game.  May not have made any difference but we know throwing him directly into the fire on a truly terrible and poorly constructed team didn't help.

Don't think it would have made a difference but the Giants botched that (one of many by Gettleman/Mara).  They should have just moved on from Eli when they drafted Jones bringing in another veteran to babysit Jones for a year.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:56:08 PMMahomes sat because KC was a playoff team and were coming off a 12-4 season. Thank you for proving my point. We are not a contending team. Eli Manning played 20 years ago. The game has changed dramatically since.

And no we dont have good WRs. You can keep stressing that we do. We dont.

That wasn't the only reason Mahomes sat for a year.  Mahomes mainly sat for a year to learn Andy Reid's offense.  He came from a system in college that was nothing like what Reid runs.

And again it's hard to know whether these weapons are good when the QB can't get them the ball.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:46:49 PMNo you draft a QB when the opportunity is right. You just dont pick 1 to pick 1.

That's a great point.  You don't force drafting a QB 6th overall.  You wait a year and draft the guy that you were targeting the prior year who stayed for their Senior Year.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:40:31 PMCause the topic brought up that our skilled players were good enough to compete at a high level and I tried to show that the league doesnt view our skilled players at a high level. I am not sure why the pivot always has to be on Jones. But the players we have brought in were not players who other teams saw as impact players. Yet we have people putting them up with that of some of the best players in the league.

All I was doing was showing you how your reasoning is flawed.  If you don't think it's flawed apply that reasoning to Daniel Jones.  Where a guy was drafted or what the Giants had to give up to get that player is irrelevant.  Those players have ability if you get them the ball.  If you don't get them the ball you're wasting them.  This isn't like last season where Richie James and Marcus Johnson are dropping passes.  These are players who do have ability.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:48:33 PMBecause Jones is gone after next year regardless. You dont sit top 10 picks unless you have a contending team (we dont). Richardson isnt a better QB than Minshew - but hes learning on the job immediately. Bryce Young isnt better than Andy Dalton - but they threw him into the fire.

Patrick Mahomes sat for a full season.  Eli Manning sat for the first half of his rookie season and he was not only the first overall pick but a pick the Giants paid a ransom for. Heck even Jones sat for the first two games of his rookie season. If that player is sat it has little to do with who is better but rather that the rookie QB isn't ready to step in immediately.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:42:15 PMYes, definite typo. Like I said, if we draft a Qb in top 10 - I would insist the kid start right away.

Why?  If the kid they draft they feel needs to sit to start the season with Jones still on the roster why would you force the kid to play when you can have Jones play instead?

In the Giants FO/Ownership's defense they were backed into a corner with Jones coming off last season where they would have taken a major hit by letting Jones go.  I completely agree with Lombardi's assessment though I am not so sure the FO believes in him as much as we think.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:25:08 PMLike you can laugh all you want - but obviously you dont understand that all those players I mentioned - were all available this past offseason to other teams. Robinson was not. I hope you can understand now.

And when Hyatt actually produces at a level thats even near Jefferson - we can have a conversation about him.

And if Waller is that much of an x factor - the raiders wouldnt have traded him and orther teams would have offered a better pick. Again, no body thought much of him.

But I forgot our passing game rivals that of the the best teams in the league.... lol - now thats what is funny.

If this is the narrative you're going with apply that to Daniel Jones.  What team was beating down his door to give him the contract the Giants did?  If he is as good as you believe wouldn't Jones have had teams all coveting him?

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 06, 2023, 12:17:19 PMWould it be misleading to say Daniel Jones played poorly on Monday night because he tried to play well?

Not the same thing.  The analogy doesn't apply.

The analogy that would apply is that Jones put in the work in the off season and in game preparation but still is stuck in bad habits and not seeing things he should at this point in his career.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 12:13:20 PMAnd lets look at what the league thinks of our surrounding cast:

Slayton - 2 year only 5 million guaranteed.
Campbell - 1 year 4 million
Hyatt - passed up by 31 other teams for two rounds
Waller - a bad team traded him for only a 3rd
Hodgins - couldnt even make the Bills team last year
Shepard - 1 year minimum contract

I mean do you really think these guys are coveted by other teams? Seriously?

LOL,  I like how you leave Robinson off of there. 

If you are going to judge Hyatt by how many teams passed on him how about all of the teams that passed on Justin Jefferson or the teams that passed on Randy Moss?  Guess that means those guys aren't good.

Waller came for a third round pick due to injury concerns.  He wasn't brought in to be a blocking TE.  He was brought in to be a weapon in the passing game because of the match up issues he presents for the opposition.  But if you don't get him the ball it's useless.

Not every team has 4 WR weapons.  There is enough here in the passing game that if you get them the ball in spots that aren't check downs or underneath routes that they can make plays.

Quote from: MightyGiants on October 06, 2023, 12:11:28 PMGreg,

Joe Banner said Schoen failed to "upgrade" the line, not "invest" in the line. 

It's as if someone had invested all their retirement savings in Enron (or FTX if you want a more modern reference).  You can say that person invested in their retirement, but in reality, they didn't invest wisely in their retirement, and now they have no money to live on.

Again fail to upgrade implies an effort wasn't made when there was.  It's misleading.  On paper the line was upgraded before the 2022 season with the drafting of Neal plus the other FA signings over what the Giants had in 2021.  On paper the line was upgraded before the 2023 with the drafting of the center in the 2nd round.  But again what was on paper as an upgrade hasn't resulted in better line play.

It's misleading to say this is a matter of Schoen not upgrading.