Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:59:47 AMEkeler, Allen, and Williams are on par with barkley, Slayton, and Hodgins? let me guess mixon, boyd, higgins, and chase are on the same level as them too? I have heard of it all now.

Oh by the way, herbert really struggled this past week without Ekeler and Williams. Yes they won, but if you want to argue a 54% completion percentage with one TD and one INT is a special performance, then so be it.

You can remove Hodgins from that group and instead replace him and maybe even Slayton with Robinson and Hyatt.  When you add in Waller who is a mismatch as a TE in the passing game the weapons are similar for both QB's and neither QB has a good offensive line.  As a QB you need to get these playmakers the ball.  They have ability that is being wasted.

And yes as I said before those QB's aren't immune to sub par games once in a while.  But when you look at their overall body of work it's light years ahead of Jones.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:47:40 AMMahomes and Allen I agree with. They are the only elite ones.

Herbert has never won a playoff game. And you dont think when healthy, Ekeler- Allen, and Williams arent elite players that make him better? You cannot be elite if you dont win.
Lawrence has been very AVERAGE this year. Putting him in the same class as Mahomes and Allen is ridiculous.
Burrow can be elite, but lets face it - he has been horrible this year and having those 3 WRs definitely prop him up.

Herbert's supporting cast isn't much different than the one Jones has.  If you watch enough of his games you can see how good he is and how he carriers that team.

Burrow is elite.  Having a bad start to the season doesn't take away from the fact that he has a track record that Daniel Jones could never touch even with a bad offensive line.

I invite you to watch more of these QB's play seeing if you notice a difference in their play and games compared to Jones.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:48:50 AMI dont disagree with a word with that. My point is if you dont have Mahomes or Allen right now - getting any qb and play for the Giants and reach their full potential would be next to impossible. Our roster is very bad.

The Giants are a much better team with any of the Burrow, Herbert or Lawrence group.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:53:13 AMWell we only have to play him one more year. Getting Williams/Jackson contract off the books will help as well. I am still in favor of drafting a QB in the top 10 and trade Jones for whatever we can. Even if its a 6th. We dont need any controversies. Rip the band aid and if the rookie takes his lumps his first year, so be it.

Giants are stuck with Jones through at least 2024.  The dead cap hit the Giants would take in trading him would be massive with how his contract is structured.

Do we know whether it's possible for the Giants to put Thomas on IR retroactively?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:41 AMWhat good players do they have?

I am very curious to hear this.

Thomas and Barkley to start.  Waller, Robinson and Hyatt if you can actually get them the ball and not always looking to go underneath or check down.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:41:50 AMThere are only 2 elite QBs in the league that dont need to be propped up by their teammates. Finding them is extremely hard. Many QBs play are elevated by their surrounding casts.

Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert and even Lawrence at this point are the elite QB's in the league who while they aren't perfect or aren't prone to bad games consistently elevate their teams and are productive.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:40:04 AMNo saying they havent upgraded the OL means the players they have taken have been just as bad or worse. Which is 100% true.

Actually it doesn't say that.  But whatever the case. 

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:21:46 AMUnless they actually get good players. But this process is going to take awhile.

Ok, so we are acknowledging Jones is a QB that needs to be propped up rather than an elite QB who elevates his team.  And again this is a 5th year QB we are discussing with almost 60 NFL starts in his career.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:29:38 AMBut did he say that? The heading clearly says they havent upgraded the OL. They havent. Its worse than last year.

Saying they haven't upgraded the offensive line is implying they haven't tried to upgrade it or haven't made strong enough investments in it.  It's being completely dishonest.

Being honest would be him stating despite heavy investments in the offensive line the Giants have not been able to get better line play.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 11:25:45 AMAm I missing something. He said they didnt upgrade the line, which is factual.

There is a difference between saying that they didn't try to upgrade the offensive line and saying the moves they've made haven't resulted in better line play.  The former isn't true.

Didn't Schoen spend a 2nd round pick on a center and multiple picks including the 7th overall pick last year on the offensive line?  Not sure how you can say he ignored the line or hasn't tried to upgrade the line.  Investments have been there results haven't. 

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:31:51 AMYou do every time Jones gets sacked, doesnt lead a WR for a completion, or slightly underthrows a WR, so why cant we do it when a WR doesnt do his job?

Not blocking isnt a petty thing - its a necessity in order to win in the NFL.

Doing it in a thread breaking down the play of Marcus McKethan especially a positive one is a petty thing.  I have nothing further to say on this except that the breakdown was interesting and provides reasons to hope he gets more playing time to see if he can eventually become a fixture on the line.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 10:30:23 AMAgain, I disagree. Look at the naked bootleg against SF where NO ONE blocks the reigning defensive player in the league. Whether Bellinger was suppose to or not is irrelevant. Its very poor play design and a TE not doing his job. Jones was sacked before he could even carry out the bootleg.

Look at the fumble Jones had. I do agree - he is responsible for the fumble, but look at the first part of the play. An unblocked DE comes clean because Shane Lemieux is like 10 minutes late pulling to try to block him. Jones is hit immediately. How can you blame Jones for these plays?

The corner blitz you can blame Jones 100%. But when you get hit and sacked within 2 seconds - you have to realize the problem isnt the QB. When your RBs average 3.0 YPC - you cannot blame the QB all the time.

People here are clamoring for more shots down the field. Its physically cannot happen. The WRs cannot run routes 35-40 yards down field if the QB is sacked within 2 seconds. You cannot throw a WR open if they arent looking or finished with their route.

And yes - you can point to a few plays where they are missed. 2 out of 30-35-40 times is very little. And plus if you dont think QBs are affected when they are hit and knocked down consistently - then we need to be a little more open minded.

And this isnt one game with Jones. He stunk against Seattle - we all saw it. But if you watch every QB in the league. When they get time and can set their feet - plays are made. When they are hurried, pressure, and forced to move the pocket 85-90% of the plays - they will struggle. It is pretty simple.

Again you are ignoring the fact that the QB especially a veteran QB has pre snap responsibilities and should have the awareness to recognize if a blitz is coming and adjust accordingly.  If you watch enough games of other teams you see the elite ones doing so.  As GMO pointed out if the adjustment is made pre snap and someone like Neal or another player on the line misses their block it's a different story nothing you can do about that as a QB.

And BTW you can absolutely throw to a WR before they break their route or aren't looking at the time the ball is released.  It's called anticipating how the play is going to develop.  I showed you the video of Eli doing so with Slayton.  When the ball was released Slayton wasn't open yet Eli put the ball in a perfect spot anticipating Slayton would be there when the ball got there.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 06, 2023, 10:42:09 AMThere is too many misses by Jones to not consider him a big part of the issue right now.  If he is responsible for making the blocking adjustments at the line, then he is really deficient in that regard.  If it's someone else's responsibility, I would wonder why. 

That's what I  would like to know.  We rarely if ever see Jones make pre-snap adjustments.  Is that because the coaches have taken that responsibility away from him or because he is choosing not too?

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 09:57:24 AMQBs arent robots. Some of those sacks I disagree with. Not recognizing a blitz, not throwing a ball away losing a yard - sure, you can definitely pinpoint that on Jones.

Jones is in a no win situation with a lot of people and "experts". If he gets rid of the ball quickly, he isnt taking chances down field and not going through his reads. If he holds onto the ball, and then gets sacked - he gets blame for holding onto the ball and not making quicker decisions.

This is what I know for sure. If he is getting sacked 6+ times a games (it may have been more last week) in 2 seconds or under. I am not blaming the QB. If an edge or DE hits our QB unblocked - thats not on the QB.

What I find amusing from these "experts" is they fail how many sacks Jones got out of from poor blocking a sif it doesnt matter. I bet he avoided another 6-10 more Seattle where some other QBs would have been sack. But do they give him credit for that? Nah...

If you're a franchise QB in season 5 who was just handed a large contract extension the expectations are going to be higher than they are for a rookie or second year QB still learning how to play the position at this level.  Fair or unfair Jones being in his fifth year with his contract means his play is going to get criticized more just as it is for any player in his position who has the professional career he's had to this point.

As far as getting rid of the ball quickly meaning that he can't go downfield I point to this play a few years ago that was getting rid of the ball quickly and anticipating the play while going deep all at the same time.  Something most elite veteran QB's do on a regular basis.  https://twitter.com/bobbyskinner_/status/1204229461312516096?s=61

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 08:38:13 AMIf we can nitpick everything Jones does wrong, then other players are fair game too. He didnt do his job. Simple. And to say Jones gained yardage wasnt because of Slayton. We didnt gain MORE yards because of Slayton.

We have to hold everyone responisble for not doing their jobs. Not just one player.

Ok so we're going to turn this into being petty in every thread.  Got it.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 06, 2023, 09:20:46 AMTank means lose on purpose to move up spots in the draft. Trading Barkley during a lost season wouldn't mean they're trying to lose games. It would give other RB's on the team a chance to show what they can do and add either young players or draft picks.

Barkley has missed a fair amount of time or been limited enough to where we see what the Giants have in other RB's (Gray excluded).  Trading him would be more about collecting assets to build with moving forward should this season look to be lost by the trade deadline.

Quote from: EDjohnst1981 on October 06, 2023, 09:43:44 AMNobody is saying the OLine isn't a problem. Nobody is saying that it's even remotely good.

People are merely pointing out that Jones isn't even playing average.

It's been pointed out, with video evidence, that Jones was responsible for a number of sacks on Monday night. In fact, according to Dan O the oline was responsible for 4, Campbell 1 and the rest were on Jones.

The Giants, and Jones, have played well for 2 quarters this season. Two.

If people don't think Jones is a massive part of this collective failure (not withstanding his salary taking money away replenishing at other positions), I don't know what to say.

All summer long we had cartwheels on this board about "locking up our Franchise QB". Sadly, for all of us, the shine has really come off that and it's clear Jones cannot play with what's provided to him. The Giants obviously thought the same, hence the painful but palatable exit at the end of next season. So they also thought that they had not locked up their franchise QB.

But make no mistake, I doubt anyone on this board is happy with how this has played out but that doesn't stop it being the reality that we face right now.

I'm not happy with how things have gone.  I was hoping that at the very least Jones could give them decent enough play while Schoen continued to build out the foundation of the franchise the next season or two.  Instead his play has regressed and there are big question markets about the foundation of the franchise.  There are 13 more games to turn things around but right now it's not looking good.