Big Blue Huddle

Quote from: Ed Vette on October 06, 2023, 07:10:19 AMSchoen had to be looking at 2024 as early as last year. There are players who he knew would not be back and those on a watchlist. Davidson is an up and coming player to replace Leo. Saquon will not be tagged again. They will draft a replacement or he will accept a much lower contract. Adoree' will find more money elsewhere. The Jury is still out in McKinney. Glowinski is gone and so is Peart.

I don't see a rebuild. I see Schoen progressing with his plan of a three year build. Which looks like five years right now.

Schoen is always looking ahead.  I remember at last year's deadline after the Toney trade he said that one of the factors they considered with collecting draft capital was factoring in the draft class they were collecting picks to draft from.  He has consistently preached the compete today while build for tomorrow.  That means he's likely never going to intentionally tank a season to get a high pick.  If he was going to do that in any season it would have been last year when he had little cap space to work with in his first season where regardless of what he did he had the job security to get through it.

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 07:21:22 AMSorry Ed I don't mean to send your thread in another direction, but I could never find the clip until your link.

It was a play that had no impact on the game. It didn't cost us a drive or anything. But the very first clip - Jones kept the ball. But look at Slaytons effort trying to block. If he could have at least gotten in the way - Jones had the opportunity to go for a much bigger play.

Later on that drive - Jones kept the ball on a read option and Robinson was the blocker on the same side and basically drove the defender into the sideline.

It may be a little thing - but it's things like that that contribute to our bad team.

Nice find though Ed, thank you!

Quote from: JT39 on October 06, 2023, 07:21:22 AMSorry Ed I don't mean to send your thread in another direction, but I could never find the clip until your link.

It was a play that had no impact on the game. It didn't cost us a drive or anything. But the very first clip - Jones kept the ball. But look at Slaytons effort trying to block. If he could have at least gotten in the way - Jones had the opportunity to go for a much bigger play.

Later on that drive - Jones kept the ball on a read option and Robinson was the blocker on the same side and basically drove the defender into the sideline.

It may be a little thing - but it's things like that that contribute to our bad team.

Nice find though Ed, thank you!

The first play went for a gain.  Think getting on Slayton for the lack of block is nitpicking.

Quote from: todge on October 05, 2023, 11:43:22 PMThere isn't such a thing as a "can't miss QB".


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Of course but there are the rare elite just about lock talents like Elway, Aikman, Peyton Manning and Andrew Luck.  Those you can't pass on when you have a QB that is questionable as to whether they are the guy to lead you to a championship which is a position the Giants are in.

Before my time but a guy you always saw on NFL Films and heard stories of being a monster.  Crazy about those Bear teams that had him and Sayers yet were still awful.

Even when those guys come back the book is out on Jones until he starts taking shots downfield and breaks the habit of always looking to his check downs and underneath routes.

Quote from: B1GBLUE on October 05, 2023, 05:11:39 PMsad but true. it just sucks cause its (mostly) not his fault, but damaged goods are damaged goods. he will forever be a "what could have been". the giants have now ruined 2 qb's in a row that were either very good at one point, or had all the potential to be.

He may have been Jalen Hurts.  His skill set was never good enough to become elite.

Quote from: 4 Aces on October 05, 2023, 03:09:40 PMFrom my seat, he's been David Carr'd.

He's taken so many savage beatings. There are games from his rookie year still on youtube. Totally different QB. You almost don't recognize him. Quicker, lighter on his feet and much more aggressive.

When the league doesn't have the book out on you it's easy to look better than you are.  In Jones's rookie season his overall numbers were inflated by 4 games the rest he was mediocre in.  But that's typical for a rookie.  He has not made that big jump to this point in his career where we are in year 5.  I know people will point to Geno Smith who became a late bloomer but we need to keep in mind outside of his first two seasons with the Jets Geno Smith barely had any starts prior to last season.  In fact despite being the NFL double the amount of time Daniel Jones has Geno Smith has actually made fewer NFL starts than Daniel Jones.

Quote from: TDToomer on October 05, 2023, 03:08:29 PMYou have a point. The D is ranked 19th in yards allowed which is how O/D are ranked, not by points.

Either way the D is bad.  Also factor in they are in the bottom third on defense in third down conversions.  There is a lot of work needed on that side of the ball.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 01:14:00 PMUnless you build an all-time defense this team isnt winning many games scoring 11.5 pts/game. And let's face it, they put up 31 in the 2nd half of one game for most of of those 46.  So outside of that game they are averaging 5 pts/game. 

That's obviously not all on the OL, and I am not saying they need to use 1st rounders ,but they need to get that group to where they can block Philly and dallas. Those teams live off of line superiority on both sides of the ball.

Regardless of what they have spent in the past to draft sign or whatever else, the line stinks. 

I think you would agree it might be a little easier on the defense if the offense had scored even a couple of TDs in the 1st half of games. Especially given our DCs style of defense.

The secondary has two rookies starting.  They have some things to learn but given they are rookies they look pretty good.  We will see if they learn as they play, but personally I think the safeties are more of an issue.  McKinney looks like he regressed and Pinnock over pursues regularly.

Is the QB not changing calls part of the issue for the OL? Is it coaching?  Do you think this team, when healthy has 5 guys that are starting caliber OL?

I have to say their inability to pick up stunts and twists seems like a preparation issue, not ability.  Is that the coach or the players?  Or both?

This post is all over the place and long, sorry about that

Right now the Giants are being outscored 46-122 through 4 games.  They're 32nd in points scored and 30th in points allowed.  The defense has been just as much of an issue (though not as much Monday night) as the offense.  In the 49'ers game they couldn't get off the field on 3rd down.  It's hard for the offense to get into a rhythm if they are barely on the field.

I'm not trying to argue the offensive line isn't an issue that doesn't need to get fixed I am arguing that trying to fix it with more premium investments at the expense of other areas of need is not going to change much when you are as bad as they have been in all areas.

Quote from: nb587 on October 05, 2023, 01:06:50 PMThe move to make, in my opinion, should have been made by Gettleman by drafting Herbert and trading Jones coming off a decent rookie year when he may have had value.  To me, a QB like Herbert would have set the franchise up for years.

Or they just should have passed on overreaching for Daniel Jones in 2019 either using the 6th overall pick that year to fill another need or traded down then waited until 2020 to take Herbert.  Instead they forced the QB pick in 2019 because Daniel Jones has Eli's personality and was coached by his coach.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 12:47:08 PMIt may, but until they can block our division rivals, it won't really matter what the rest of the roster looks like.

If its coaching, then get the right coach in place.  This team is its 5th OL coach since 2016.  Switching the coach hasn't been the solution either. 

The rest of the roster is just as important and just as much of an issue especially the defense that lacks a consistent pass rush and isn't good in the secondary or LBers.  Let's say they spend another top 10 pick on a linemen and it improves the line next season......at the same time it comes at the cost of passing on a needed defensive player or play making receiver they lack.  Where does that leave the Giants?  Not much better than they are now.

https://theathletic.com/4928209/2023/10/05/giants-jets-daniel-jones-zach-wilson-struggles/

1. Daniel Jones' limitations stand out to coaches.

Jones would look better if the Giants' offensive line were not so weak, if running back Saquon Barkley were healthy, if the team had better wide receivers and if the Giants had faced fewer top defenses to this point.

"I wouldn't want to be playing quarterback for the Giants right now," one offensive coach said.

Still, coaches who have watched Jones this season do not see evidence the Giants have faith in their quarterback to operate more than a basic offense. They see a quarterback who limits the Giants' options more than he expands them.

"It's very noticeable how little they make him play like an NFL quarterback," a defensive coach said. "He has the easiest reads and the easiest concepts, and still he does not throw the ball accurately. He doesn't throw to the correct leverage, doesn't throw the receivers open, just doesn't do it. I'm giving you zero opinions. This is all the tape shows."

This coach cited example after example of misplaced balls even on completed passes.

A completed swing pass to a wide-open Barkley that the running back had to catch between his ankles in the closing minutes at Arizona was one such play.

The placement of a completed pass to Parris Campbell late in the second quarter against San Francisco that prevented the receiver from getting out of bounds to stop the clock was another.

When Jones connected with rookie Jalin Hyatt for a 31-yard gain in the late going against the Cardinals, it was a huge play, but the ball placement brought the defensive back into position for a near breakup.

"The guy is open — just lay it up to him," the defensive coach said of the pass to Hyatt. "He makes it a competitive jump-ball situation."

The pick-six interception Jones threw against Seattle, which precipitated Daboll's sideline tablet toss, was among the obvious missteps.

On another pick-six, this one against Dallas, Jones targeted Barkley on a third-and-19 play in the first quarter. The Cowboys had a cornerback positioned in cloud coverage to smash into Barkley the moment Barkley caught the ball. That's what happened, sending the ball high into the air, where it was intercepted and returned for a touchdown.

Still early in his rookie season but he has shown some positive signs.  Definitely want to keep on eye on to see how he develops over the next few seasons.

Quote from: Giant Jim on October 05, 2023, 10:48:36 AMThey're on their 4th head coach, 5th if you count the end of Coughlin's run. How many offensive assistants? None of them could make it work. The line needed to be fixed or invested in for over 10 years. How many linemen left here and were successful with other teams? You think they should continue to build with this foundation and bring in more WR's and pass catching, no-block TE's? Neal and the rest of the 2022 draft were scouted by Gettleman's scouting staff, so Schoen deserves more time.

No, I'm not tired of drafting linemen with 1st and 2nd round picks. And I won't be until the can build a line and system that can form a pocket, open holes for running backs and push opposing defenses back in short yardage plays.

I think they should change the line coach and how they are scouting linemen.  The Giants have too many holes on the rest of the roster on both sides of the ball to spend another set of high draft picks on linemen.  Spending more high draft picks on linemen is going to lead to the same result of a flawed roster.

Quote from: uconnjack8 on October 05, 2023, 10:38:57 AMI find it perplexing because we see it sometimes but not others. 

It seems the people around him thought his football smarts were good enough to sign him to the current contract.  I dont think they were looking at his Duke transcripts for that.

They were backed into a corner after last season.  They were coming off a season where he was decent and they won 9 games plus a playoff game.  They didn't have a high enough draft pick to draft a QB and their other options to replace Jones with were limited.  Outside of tagging him and letting him play out 2023 they made the safe decision of signing him to an extension that gives them an out after 2 seasons.